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Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




Yeah. Still I would cite fair use for copying the codex. I am firmly within my rights from fair use to copy codices and supplements I purchased from Gw for personal use. The TO is firmly within their right to set policy that I can’t bring photocopies of my rules to their tournament. GW is firmly within their right to stop endorsing TO’s with policy they don’t agree with. But nobody is legally wrong except for someone bringing illegal copies of material they did not purchase the rights to, to a tournament.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
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macluvin wrote:
Yeah. Still I would cite fair use for copying the codex. I am firmly within my rights from fair use to copy codices and supplements I purchased from Gw for personal use. The TO is firmly within their right to set policy that I can’t bring photocopies of my rules to their tournament. GW is firmly within their right to stop endorsing TO’s with policy they don’t agree with. But nobody is legally wrong except for someone bringing illegal copies of material they did not purchase the rights to, to a tournament.


Even then, I'm pretty sure giving your friend a copy of a codex is not really enforceable to any meaningful degree. GW wishes it was, but GW's ideas about intellectual property are... dystopian.
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran



UK - Warwickshire

Without checking things, I wouldve presumed a similar situation to copied game roms. Or to music.
~ making a copy of a game or a music cd/vinyl you already own a legit copy of is totally legit. You might want to do this to preserve your original copy while using a duplicate of it.

It only becomes copyright infringement when this copy is distributed either freely or for payment doesn't really matter..

If the TO is worried about getting in hot water for it, I dont think it would be unreasonable to request to see the official copy and then have no problem with you using a photocopy of it for gameplay while the official copy is put away again to save on wear and tear.

'Ain't nothing crazy about me but my brain. Right brain? Riight! No not you right brain! Right left brain? Right!... Okay then lets do this!! 
   
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Hecaton wrote:
macluvin wrote:
Yeah. Still I would cite fair use for copying the codex. I am firmly within my rights from fair use to copy codices and supplements I purchased from Gw for personal use. The TO is firmly within their right to set policy that I can’t bring photocopies of my rules to their tournament. GW is firmly within their right to stop endorsing TO’s with policy they don’t agree with. But nobody is legally wrong except for someone bringing illegal copies of material they did not purchase the rights to, to a tournament.


Even then, I'm pretty sure giving your friend a copy of a codex is not really enforceable to any meaningful degree. GW wishes it was, but GW's ideas about intellectual property are... dystopian.


Even IP law as it currently exists is dystopian and way too strong, and often at the cost of consumer quality of life. And you are very much right that enforcing that would be practically impossible.

IP law needs to be relaxed. Honestly, IP law does very little to stop people from ripping them off and provides opportunities for big companies to financially ruin the not so rich for life even if they did technically or morally nothing wrong. Chapter house and other legal precedents proved that knock offs of the real thing can easily and legally be produced and marketed, as long as you don’t explicitly call it a trademarked name and change the product enough to be even slightly distinguishable from the real thing.

GW’s handling of IP issues REALLY needs to be relaxed. Looking at what 40k used to look like, it seemed like there was a point where the IP belonged to the fans as much as it did the actual pen and ink owners. The problem is that the product is more profitable short term if you deprive the playerbase of that creativity. The other issue is that 3rd party bits manufacturers could have had an incredibly mutually beneficial relationship if they worked with GW, but GW wants to maintain what is practically a monopoly on table top war gaming. I wouldn’t be surprised if they buy out any competition that looks like they are going to be a competitive competitor for that purpose.

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The laws do get updated, and honestly I don’t think they need to be loosen at all at this point.

Most of what has been said is a common use, where it’s reasonable to assume the Owners of the book or media are reasonable and using it within whats reasonable for its intent.

GW may have step over some lines, but chapter house did as well. And we do know where some things lie there as well with common use, if it is considered bad within community’s that you are trying to claim a common use, you will likely find it’s unable to be used.

But it does bring up another thing, a TO doesn’t have any real rights to enforce these for GW, they really only extend to informing GW about them.

But they can still ban them under there own rules for other reasons.
So would be more about the reasons for bans, rather than anything legal in most places.
   
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Apple fox wrote:
The laws do get updated, and honestly I don’t think they need to be loosen at all at this point.


bs. This goes beyond 40k, it's about corporate control of media and information.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Apple fox wrote:
The laws do get updated, and honestly I don’t think they need to be loosen at all at this point.

Most of what has been said is a common use, where it’s reasonable to assume the Owners of the book or media are reasonable and using it within whats reasonable for its intent.

GW may have step over some lines, but chapter house did as well. And we do know where some things lie there as well with common use, if it is considered bad within community’s that you are trying to claim a common use, you will likely find it’s unable to be used.

But it does bring up another thing, a TO doesn’t have any real rights to enforce these for GW, they really only extend to informing GW about them.

But they can still ban them under there own rules for other reasons.
So would be more about the reasons for bans, rather than anything legal in most places.


Mate, the laws are updated almost universally to extend the control of the house of mouse over what it owns so that century old copyrights never pass into public domain.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




stratigo wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
The laws do get updated, and honestly I don’t think they need to be loosen at all at this point.

Most of what has been said is a common use, where it’s reasonable to assume the Owners of the book or media are reasonable and using it within whats reasonable for its intent.

GW may have step over some lines, but chapter house did as well. And we do know where some things lie there as well with common use, if it is considered bad within community’s that you are trying to claim a common use, you will likely find it’s unable to be used.

But it does bring up another thing, a TO doesn’t have any real rights to enforce these for GW, they really only extend to informing GW about them.

But they can still ban them under there own rules for other reasons.
So would be more about the reasons for bans, rather than anything legal in most places.


Mate, the laws are updated almost universally to extend the control of the house of mouse over what it owns so that century old copyrights never pass into public domain.


… yes I know.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Storm Trooper with Maglight






I am going to my first GT at the weekend. The only publication I really resent buying is the GT mission pack. £25 for a slim hardback that will be out of date soon. A softback or ebook or just a pdf would have been a lot better.

The tournament I am attending requires each player to bring one, which is fair enough as you need it to play the missions, but it means there will be twice as many copies there as needed if everyone follows the rules.

In reality I reckon lots of players will use wahapedia on their phones. At a smaller event, if I was the TO, I would just photocopy the missions for the players or put them up on a screen or something.

Edit: I think I remember saying all this earlier in the thread but nevermind.
Copyright is only an issue if one or more parties make it an issue, in my opinion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/29 09:10:34


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If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


The point is that the rule could be there partly for the sake of appearance.
Strict rules, slavishly followed, is not something I thought would be a part of wargaming.

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Focused Fire Warrior





Exactly that.
Just like those who specify that recasts or 3D prints are not allowed, but then do not turn you away the day of the event.
The average TO just doesn't care. Unless they are FLGS owners that allow only stuff bought from them

Local events are not for profit, they often cost more money than what they make.
These events just help in keeping the community alive and generating interest in the game, which helps in creating and maintaining a customer base.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/30 11:37:13



 
   
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Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

I did allow them at my events. I am not their IP police, and never have been.

I am not responsible for enforcing GW's IP rights. That is wholly upon them, as the actual owner of said rights.

I did not receive any prize support from GW, so I was not beholden to their tournament rules, either.

I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
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Damsel of the Lady




For the legal debate: I believe, up until the Napster case, in the U.S. it was permissible to make copies for family/friends/household members. That changed when the definition of 'friends' got way too big thanks to the Internet but I don't know if they threw it out entirely or if they just limited it.

If I was TO'ing an event, I'm not going to bother checking. I don't approve of copyright infringement in general partially because I think it's unfair to the people who made that product, but interrogating every person as to how they got a copy, whether they can produce an original, whether they're borrowing one from a friend just for this event (still allowed in the U.S. to lend your copies out, for example) is just too much of a strain for TO's to bear.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/01 20:08:15


 
   
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edited, please delete, I am talking rubbish!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/01 22:26:07


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 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


Liability
   
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Fixture of Dakka







stratigo wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


Liability

If the tournament crowd can't - or won't - follow a simple instruction like "bring the physical book" then they are a liability, that is true.

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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 Dysartes wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


Liability

If the tournament crowd can't - or won't - follow a simple instruction like "bring the physical book" then they are a liability, that is true.


What he's saying is that the rule could potentially exist for purely for plausible deniability purposes. If some tourney players don't comply with the rule and the TO doesn't enforce it, they can still shrug their shoulders and claim that the rule requires more resources than they have on hand to enforce or that they put enforcement of it in the player's hands because the TO and other staff had better things to do than witch hunt for scanned copies of the books.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
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It's also just a handy cover-all rule to solve any arguments that may arise from someone using a photocopy/scan for something like a Forgeworld unit. It gives the TO an easy way to deal with the problem if there's any arguments about a rule's validity.
   
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Damsel of the Lady




AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Rob Lee wrote:
The people who have been fined hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions, of $ on behalf of music rights holders probably thought that no-one would care about little old them...
But again you're conflating something that is definitely illegal (sharing copies of copyrighted material) with something that you only suspect might be illegal (someone possessing a copy, when they may or may not own the original).





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rob Lee wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
A big difference there is that dealing drugs in a club is always going to be illegal


So will infringing on copyright, or piracy as it's more commonly known, always be illegal. So, no, no difference. Both are unlawful/illegal activities in the eyes of the law.

You can spin it any which way you like.

At then end of the day if you are a TO and you are not ensuring your event is 100% above board, you're at the very least a crappy TO.


Argh, this is insanity. Infringing on copyright is illegal. Possessing a copy is not illegal.

You're conflating something that is absolutely positively illegal (drug dealing) with something that at best might be illegal only if other circumstances are met (the person doesn't own an original of a copy they possess).


Just as a further note, in the U.S. at least, copyright infringement isn't always illegal either. It's civil liability only (i.e. you can be sued like if you got in a car accident but not arrested/charged/prosecuted). The U.S. is weird in that the format of your infringement and source determines whether it falls under criminal statute or not.
   
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If I was a TO I would hate creating hassle by demanding to see all relevant material (and having to cross reference the list to ensure all options are contained in all the material they brought). It’s a bit of a headache, may cause a scene, and again is beyond my pay grade to enforce something that isn’t even necessarily in their IP guidelines (fair use copies of the material). The line gets way too blurry when you throw fair use in the mix. Tournament staff have better things to do than frisk down players for physical copies and check to make sure they have all relevant supplements, or to interrogate and investigate copies that could very well be legal because of fair use. Players have better things to do than carry potentially 20 pounds of books with their 2k points armies and dice and relevant cards and what not.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
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 Dysartes wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


Liability

If the tournament crowd can't - or won't - follow a simple instruction like "bring the physical book" then they are a liability, that is true.


Like many rules and laws, enforcement is deliberately spotty so that those with authority can cover their ass if need be. Or just punish someone they don't like
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 PaddyMick wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


The point is that the rule could be there partly for the sake of appearance.
Strict rules, slavishly followed, is not something I thought would be a part of wargaming.


Exactly. Just because something stupid is official, doesn't make it any less stupid, and thus, does make it less likely to be enforced.
When rules no longer serve the purpose they were designed for, or were designed for purposes of foolishness, its easy to turn a blind eye.

Note that I did not say GW. I said GW lawyers. I've played a few GW employees in my time and they could give two figs about the state of my rules.

Its guys pushing dollies that they painted across their custom made playgrounds populated by custom made dolly houses. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. But context is important, and when viewed through that lens, suddenly the importance of a rules provenance is diminished considerably. Unless you're TFG.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/06 20:23:30


 
   
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Focused Fire Warrior





 Wiz Warrior wrote:
Its guys pushing dollies that they painted across their custom made playgrounds populated by custom made dolly houses. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. But context is important, and when viewed through that lens, suddenly the importance of a rules provenance is diminished considerably. Unless you're TFG.

/thread
I'm not sure what else could be said on this topic.


 
   
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Eye of Terror

 Aenar wrote:
 Wiz Warrior wrote:
Its guys pushing dollies that they painted across their custom made playgrounds populated by custom made dolly houses. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. But context is important, and when viewed through that lens, suddenly the importance of a rules provenance is diminished considerably. Unless you're TFG.

/thread
I'm not sure what else could be said on this topic.

How about the absurdity of bringing an entire Codex, Rulebook, Supplement, etc when 5 - 10 pages cover the rules specific to your list?

The appeal of tournaments became lost on me a long time ago. At times, they seem like a group exercise in transporting needless amounts of materials.


   
Made in jp
Battleship Captain






The Land of the Rising Sun

 techsoldaten wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
 Wiz Warrior wrote:
Its guys pushing dollies that they painted across their custom made playgrounds populated by custom made dolly houses. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. But context is important, and when viewed through that lens, suddenly the importance of a rules provenance is diminished considerably. Unless you're TFG.

/thread
I'm not sure what else could be said on this topic.

How about the absurdity of bringing an entire Codex, Rulebook, Supplement, etc when 5 - 10 pages cover the rules specific to your list?

The appeal of tournaments became lost on me a long time ago. At times, they seem like a group exercise in transporting needless amounts of materials.


Tell that to an IG player that loves infantry like me

M.

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 Wiz Warrior wrote:
 PaddyMick wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


The point is that the rule could be there partly for the sake of appearance.
Strict rules, slavishly followed, is not something I thought would be a part of wargaming.


Exactly. Just because something stupid is official, doesn't make it any less stupid, and thus, does make it less likely to be enforced.
When rules no longer serve the purpose they were designed for, or were designed for purposes of foolishness, its easy to turn a blind eye.

Note that I did not say GW. I said GW lawyers. I've played a few GW employees in my time and they could give two figs about the state of my rules.

Its guys pushing dollies that they painted across their custom made playgrounds populated by custom made dolly houses. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. But context is important, and when viewed through that lens, suddenly the importance of a rules provenance is diminished considerably. Unless you're TFG.


This is quite incendiary. To reverse it: maybe the TO actually cares about the morality of saying 'Hey, people put time and effort into this and I like it. I like using it, I like playing it. They deserve to be compensated for that and I'm uncomfortable having pirates at my event".

You shouldn't jump off a partisan (not in the political sense but just in a 'firmly taking one side' sense) so much. Everyone is human and there can be good people espousing views you don't like or agree with.
   
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Audustum wrote:
 Wiz Warrior wrote:
 PaddyMick wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


The point is that the rule could be there partly for the sake of appearance.
Strict rules, slavishly followed, is not something I thought would be a part of wargaming.


Exactly. Just because something stupid is official, doesn't make it any less stupid, and thus, does make it less likely to be enforced.
When rules no longer serve the purpose they were designed for, or were designed for purposes of foolishness, its easy to turn a blind eye.

Note that I did not say GW. I said GW lawyers. I've played a few GW employees in my time and they could give two figs about the state of my rules.

Its guys pushing dollies that they painted across their custom made playgrounds populated by custom made dolly houses. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. But context is important, and when viewed through that lens, suddenly the importance of a rules provenance is diminished considerably. Unless you're TFG.


This is quite incendiary. To reverse it: maybe the TO actually cares about the morality of saying 'Hey, people put time and effort into this and I like it. I like using it, I like playing it. They deserve to be compensated for that and I'm uncomfortable having pirates at my event".

You shouldn't jump off a partisan (not in the political sense but just in a 'firmly taking one side' sense) so much. Everyone is human and there can be good people espousing views you don't like or agree with.


I still think its an unnecessary thing to do to make people bring a codex, up to 3 supplements (or more... who knows?) a core rule book plus armies dice and all that. Even more so to force them to put undue wear and tear constantly moving them around and opening them during games, especially considering what they paid for those printed material and double especially considering the cost of production of said material. They don't even spend any real money updating the content beyond the rules; it's mostly verbatim reprints of material from older editions and MAYBE a few extra pages of 42k era news plus the same pictures they have been using, unless they release new models as well with that codex. And they could easily just pull that material from the supplements from 8th edition as well... And printing costs are surprisingly cheap. They charge a lot of money to update a few numbers, a handful of strategems and special rules and add a datasheet or two.

That being said, photocopies of your own personal codex are ethically and legally correct for the reasons concerning wear and tear and convenience; fair use.

I also think it's even worse that GW has sold you the core game engine for 65$, then charge you for an army's rules for 40$ (that will be invalidated in 3 years tops and pretty much useless on their own within 1 year) then charge you 40$ an update/patch (of which you may need 2 just to be able to sit at the same table as other better supported armies) AND you haven't even bought an army yet. Once you add taxes 2-3 years of current gameplay costs you 200$ (unless you are marines and need to buy a second codex in that 3 year period plus heaven knows how many supplements). Video games costs way more in terms of manpower and technical resources than tabletop wargames and you only pay 60$ for a brand new one... If it wasn't for wahapedia I'm not sure I would have made any GW purchases in the past 3 years to be honest. The rules being openly (if illegally) free is the only reason GW has gotten any money out of me; that and the monopoly they hold on tabletop wargaming. Even that is wearing thin from marine fatigue and rules bloat.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
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Dakka Veteran




Audustum wrote:
 Wiz Warrior wrote:
 PaddyMick wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


The point is that the rule could be there partly for the sake of appearance.
Strict rules, slavishly followed, is not something I thought would be a part of wargaming.


Exactly. Just because something stupid is official, doesn't make it any less stupid, and thus, does make it less likely to be enforced.
When rules no longer serve the purpose they were designed for, or were designed for purposes of foolishness, its easy to turn a blind eye.

Note that I did not say GW. I said GW lawyers. I've played a few GW employees in my time and they could give two figs about the state of my rules.

Its guys pushing dollies that they painted across their custom made playgrounds populated by custom made dolly houses. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. But context is important, and when viewed through that lens, suddenly the importance of a rules provenance is diminished considerably. Unless you're TFG.


This is quite incendiary. To reverse it: maybe the TO actually cares about the morality of saying 'Hey, people put time and effort into this and I like it. I like using it, I like playing it. They deserve to be compensated for that and I'm uncomfortable having pirates at my event".

You shouldn't jump off a partisan (not in the political sense but just in a 'firmly taking one side' sense) so much. Everyone is human and there can be good people espousing views you don't like or agree with.


I dont think you have to worry about 40k players snubbing GW of money. If you had every player at your event tally up the amount of money they have spent on the hobby on just GW products alone the average of that, even with a few pirates thrown in the mix, would be a huge sum not many people would honestly admit they have spent to people outside the hobby. If they add in everything around it as well and not just pure GW products they might even be ashamed of admitting that sum to their wargamer friends.

If every 40k tournament player stopped buying books from GW I doubt they would even notice the dip. Especially since those wargamers who dont know how to hold onto money probably spend that book money on more plastic they wont paint or play with for their closet/storage of shame.

If wahapedia didnt exist, GW at my club would have lost thousands if not over ten thousand dollars in sales due to people not even playing the game. Only reason I got back is due to online sources and I haven't even bought a book for 8th/9th. I am in fact right now(just took photos of the books and weighted them) selling off our clubs rule books and codexes. Despite holding lots of 40k events at our place we decided against buying the books and we don't require the players to have the physical books either. They are pretty useless and it is easier for everyone if they instead use Battlescribe and wahapedia. If needed in a rules dispute people have pdfs available anyway.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/07 11:13:37


 
   
 
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