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KurtAngle2 wrote:
bat702 wrote:
If games-workshop just gives las-cannons all d3+3 damage, and a buff to the standard auto-cannon then the predator would have a place on the table again.


Just have it be D6 with minimum 3 Damage and you've fixed the weapon, not everything needs to be 3+D3 damage


D3+3 was a huge mistake that IMHO should be changed to D6 with a min damage of 3. We all know that brightlances are also going to get this rule. Just think about how precarious it will be for armour once Tau and Eldar have codex releases, it will make today seem like a walk in the park.

The best thing that GW could do right now is amp up the cost of MMs and change D3+3 back to D6 with minimum 3. Otherwise, tanks are for fun only.

edit: I'm not against the D3+3 being on a relic weapon that maybe cost a CP (like the Tau Ion Accelerator), but just tossed around willy-nilly seems wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 14:28:04


 
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
It's also damned ugly. And doesn't fit in with Legions that don't go in for daemonic mumbo-jumbo.


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SemperMortis wrote:
I agree that vehicles of basically all sorts need a durability increase, but these rampant gun buffs are the reason why.
Exactly. We don't need to buff the Predator's guns. We need to buff the Predator itself!

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 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Aye, the venom crawler basically has the same dakka, actual melee damage, daemon synergy, provides synergy for summoning but that is fringe, has an invul ontop of it.


The VC is 110 at present. It moves slower, WS/BS of 4, has one gun that does half the shots with a decreasing strength and DD3 damage instead of flat 3 as well as 1 less wound. It damn well better have an invuln, because it has to close distance and be in more danger to make the most of it.


realistically, if you're taking venomcrawlers, you're bringing a disco lord with them, bringing them to BS/WS 3+


This, Daemon stuff right now is often a bit of the better bet for CSM, might aswell go the full mile with a good HQ and ignore that. Did we mention that the Venom also does regenerate...
Basically sure technically it's "worse" baseline, except it slots into the synergy of the army far better then the predator, or indeed any old astartes tank, for reasons unknown.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I agree that vehicles of basically all sorts need a durability increase, but these rampant gun buffs are the reason why.
Exactly. We don't need to buff the Predator's guns. We need to buff the Predator itself!


t8, move land raider and vindicators to t9, indeed to the equivalents in other factions sofar they exist should do so too.
if that still isn't enough, hand out to the heavier vehicles like the raider SV 2+.

Bonus points if the wounding chart will stop allowing lasguns and boltguns to scratch Chimeras, rhinos and devilfish / falcons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 15:18:45


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I agree that vehicles of basically all sorts need a durability increase, but these rampant gun buffs are the reason why.
Exactly. We don't need to buff the Predator's guns. We need to buff the Predator itself!

No - space marine lascannons need to be equal to admech las cannons full stop. DL and LC have been equal for a while now...literally 0 balance reason they shouldn't be equal as well.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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 Xenomancers wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I agree that vehicles of basically all sorts need a durability increase, but these rampant gun buffs are the reason why.
Exactly. We don't need to buff the Predator's guns. We need to buff the Predator itself!

No - space marine lascannons need to be equal to admech las cannons full stop. DL and LC have been equal for a while now...literally 0 balance reason they shouldn't be equal as well.


Yes, and than right after we buff Xenos equivalent anti-tank weapons to D3+3 lascannons and D6+2 and D6+4 Meltas and double shot Meltas you and the rest of the Imperial contingent will cry foul and demand that Predators and rhinos come standard with a 4+ invuln save and 24 wounds each. I'm exaggerating a bit here (maybe..) but that is what these weapon upgrades will do. If you don't want to nerf melta, if you don't want Lascannons toned down, than you better not complain when xenos factions get their equivalent buffs.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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Darklances and las were not equal. One was S8 -4AP, the other S9 -3AP. I'd rather be wounding on 3's vs T8 than maybe allowing a 6+ save.
I think lascannons and their bright dark equivalents (plus admech cog whatevers) should be D6 with minimum 3. Then let the differences just remain Strength and AP. Damage must be reduced or cost must go up. Current situation is not viable.
   
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SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I agree that vehicles of basically all sorts need a durability increase, but these rampant gun buffs are the reason why.
Exactly. We don't need to buff the Predator's guns. We need to buff the Predator itself!

No - space marine lascannons need to be equal to admech las cannons full stop. DL and LC have been equal for a while now...literally 0 balance reason they shouldn't be equal as well.


Yes, and than right after we buff Xenos equivalent anti-tank weapons to D3+3 lascannons and D6+2 and D6+4 Meltas and double shot Meltas you and the rest of the Imperial contingent will cry foul and demand that Predators and rhinos come standard with a 4+ invuln save and 24 wounds each. I'm exaggerating a bit here (maybe..) but that is what these weapon upgrades will do. If you don't want to nerf melta, if you don't want Lascannons toned down, than you better not complain when xenos factions get their equivalent buffs.

Where am I complaining about xenos buffs? I am complainging that the space marine lascannon is just worse than the admech one and the DE variant for no legitimate reason. It's exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

It is in fact the main reason the predator is unplayable. If it had 4 DL equilvants - it would be worth considering.

I totally agree xenos weapons need to be updated. Wraith guard for example...I say...just give them flat 6 damage on their D cannons at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bullyboy wrote:
Darklances and las were not equal. One was S8 -4AP, the other S9 -3AP. I'd rather be wounding on 3's vs T8 than maybe allowing a 6+ save.
I think lascannons and their bright dark equivalents (plus admech cog whatevers) should be D6 with minimum 3. Then let the differences just remain Strength and AP. Damage must be reduced or cost must go up. Current situation is not viable.

They were are equal in a trade off. They are situationally better in some situations - both of them.

I don't think the weapons current stats is a problem. The issue is the Wound stat on a single model is overvalued. GW seems to think that adding 4 wounds to a 12 wound unit is a significant increase in durability. It is not. See repuslors. Vehicals really just need more wounds. Increase all vehical wounds by something like...30-40% and they will be in a better place. I am totally fine with a DL 1 shotting a custodian or a centurion. It should.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/10 15:53:02


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 Xenomancers wrote:

Where am I complaining about xenos buffs? I am complainging that the space marine lascannon is just worse than the admech one and the DE variant for no legitimate reason. It's exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

It is in fact the main reason the predator is unplayable. If it had 4 DL equilvants - it would be worth considering.


You are, in a post about helping make the predator more competitive, asking for Anti-tank weapons to be heavily upgraded, raising average dmg from 3.5 per wound to 5. This on the heals of Imperial Melta weaponry getting heavily buffed and Heavy bolters DOUBLING their dmg output vs multi-wound targets. All of this has happened BEFORE most Xenos factions have had their own weapons adjusted to compete with these changes. How much dmg do you think the predator is going to do when it dies turn 1 from across the table to my Lascannon equivalent weapons or if I "Da Jump" a unit of Tankbustas that get 2 shots each at S8 and D6+2 and D6+4 dmg? I highly doubt you want my orkz running around with Melta rifle equivalents instead of their current weapons.

If you keep ramping up weapons dmg instead of making things more durable we are going to head back to 1st turn tablings and the game basically being decided by a single roll of the dice to see who shoots first.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Where am I complaining about xenos buffs? I am complainging that the space marine lascannon is just worse than the admech one and the DE variant for no legitimate reason. It's exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

It is in fact the main reason the predator is unplayable. If it had 4 DL equilvants - it would be worth considering.


You are, in a post about helping make the predator more competitive, asking for Anti-tank weapons to be heavily upgraded, raising average dmg from 3.5 per wound to 5. This on the heals of Imperial Melta weaponry getting heavily buffed and Heavy bolters DOUBLING their dmg output vs multi-wound targets. All of this has happened BEFORE most Xenos factions have had their own weapons adjusted to compete with these changes. How much dmg do you think the predator is going to do when it dies turn 1 from across the table to my Lascannon equivalent weapons or if I "Da Jump" a unit of Tankbustas that get 2 shots each at S8 and D6+2 and D6+4 dmg? I highly doubt you want my orkz running around with Melta rifle equivalents instead of their current weapons.

If you keep ramping up weapons dmg instead of making things more durable we are going to head back to 1st turn tablings and the game basically being decided by a single roll of the dice to see who shoots first.

Melta is all going to that damage profile. You are complaining about the release schedule of rules...totally valid. It stinks of "space marines should be worse" because you are defending an admech lascannon being better for the same cost as a marine lascannon.

The weapon has already been updated. Space marine lascannons were omitted from the stat increases of weapons for 9th edition armies. Literally - admech lascannons at d3+3 and space marine ones are d6. For I believe the exact same cost. I don't care how they fix it. They need to fix it though. Ork rockets don't really need an adjustment...they are already flat 3 damage. They should just pay less points for them. Totally fine with ork weapons having inferior stats and paying less for them. That is how orks should work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 15:59:53


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So wait-Ad Mech have an identical unit with the exact same outside resources, that pays the same for its Dd3+3 lascannon as a Marine does for a Dd6 lascannon?

Huh. I didn’t know that. Or maybe they only have different units, with different profiles and different available buffs.

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I don’t think making the predator more lethal is the answer. Even if they do get the souped up las cannons, you’re just adding to the hyper lethal nature of the game. Plus that means units like devastators or havocs get the buff too.

We need to overhaul the durability of tanks. A heavy bolter wounds every tank on a 5+ and strips two wounds. That’s too much for one of the most common support weapons in the game. It only takes 3 unsaved heavy wounds to bracket most tanks in the game when in reality tanks shouldn’t fear those weapons at all. Once a tank starts to bracket, the value drops significantly. The movement goes to a crawl and you lose your accuracy. Either overhaul the wound system or start giving a damage value against vehicle/monsters and another damage value against everything else for weapons.

Other issues to help tanks could include playing on a larger board to make the increased movement matter. Bring back something like tank shock so that chaff units can’t block a multi ton armored vehicle by standing in front of it. Also stop letting vehicles get caught in close combat. Again there’s no reason a tank can’t just roll over a man sized object inform of or behind them. Even a marine is going to get run over. He might be alive and safe in the armor but he will get knocked down. Close assault against a tank sounds fun till you have to try it.

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Simply more wounds and toughness on pretty much every tank in the game would be good at this point.

I'm pretty sure GW vastly overrated the value of letting tanks still shoot into combat and has priced them all too high based on this.
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
So wait-Ad Mech have an identical unit with the exact same outside resources, that pays the same for its Dd3+3 lascannon as a Marine does for a Dd6 lascannon?

Huh. I didn’t know that. Or maybe they only have different units, with different profiles and different available buffs.

The only insance of the admech lascannon is on the ironstrider belestarii I think.

75 points for 2 lascannons with d3+3. Can take 2 for 20 points less than a 4 las predator. with d6 las. They are also core.
You get 2 models +1 wound and only at the expense of -1 T. It is pretty clear there weapons have a similar cost. It is not acceptable. Should never have disparities like this in a game. Do you know how easy it is to not have these disparities?

They should just retroactively make all space marine LC d3+3. There is 0 excuse not to other than they fact people want space marines to be bad. Which is about 50% of players in this game and 90% of Dakka.

0 reason this should not be an instant hotfix.

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Quasistellar wrote:
Simply more wounds and toughness on pretty much every tank in the game would be good at this point.

I'm pretty sure GW vastly overrated the value of letting tanks still shoot into combat and has priced them all too high based on this.


vehicles do die pretty quick this edition, it interesting that instead of balancing things GW's response to making things deal too much damage was to add wounds and toughness to things rather than toning those down. Since they have started down this path i do think more wounds on vehicles and added toughenss is probably the best solution

10000 points 7000
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Also - want an example of a good tank? Look at the DG blight crawler or whatever it is called.

Cost 175.

T8 12 Wounds -1 damage and a 5++
has 2 d3+3 lascannons and a d6 flat 2 damage mortar...


Hard to believe this tank is roughly the same cost as a 4 laspredator.

Has more firepower
Vastly better defense
Move 1 less inch...

The designers in this game just suck. For this disparity to exist...it shows a complete lack of care for balance. Or a complete misunderstanding of what balance is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
Simply more wounds and toughness on pretty much every tank in the game would be good at this point.

I'm pretty sure GW vastly overrated the value of letting tanks still shoot into combat and has priced them all too high based on this.


vehicles do die pretty quick this edition, it interesting that instead of balancing things GW's response to making things deal too much damage was to add wounds and toughness to things rather than toning those down. Since they have started down this path i do think more wounds on vehicles and added toughenss is probably the best solution

Tanks have never had enough T since 8th ed. Now they need more wounds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 16:44:39


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 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
I don’t think making the predator more lethal is the answer. Even if they do get the souped up las cannons, you’re just adding to the hyper lethal nature of the game. Plus that means units like devastators or havocs get the buff too.

We need to overhaul the durability of tanks. A heavy bolter wounds every tank on a 5+ and strips two wounds. That’s too much for one of the most common support weapons in the game. It only takes 3 unsaved heavy wounds to bracket most tanks in the game when in reality tanks shouldn’t fear those weapons at all. Once a tank starts to bracket, the value drops significantly. The movement goes to a crawl and you lose your accuracy. Either overhaul the wound system or start giving a damage value against vehicle/monsters and another damage value against everything else for weapons.

Other issues to help tanks could include playing on a larger board to make the increased movement matter. Bring back something like tank shock so that chaff units can’t block a multi ton armored vehicle by standing in front of it. Also stop letting vehicles get caught in close combat. Again there’s no reason a tank can’t just roll over a man sized object inform of or behind them. Even a marine is going to get run over. He might be alive and safe in the armor but he will get knocked down. Close assault against a tank sounds fun till you have to try it.

It takes 27 heavy bolter shots from a BS3 platform to bracket a Predator, 36 if it uses Smokescreen. I don't think they're a big problem for tanks, but giving tanks -1 damage similar to dreadnoughts would solve that problem, as would giving them 2+ saves. Agreed on Tank Shock needing a return.
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

It takes 27 heavy bolter shots from a BS3 platform to bracket a Predator, 36 if it uses Smokescreen. I don't think they're a big problem for tanks, but giving tanks -1 damage similar to dreadnoughts would solve that problem, as would giving them 2+ saves. Agreed on Tank Shock needing a return.


So 9 heavy bolters and that’s in a vacuum. With stratagems, litanies, doctrines, and chapter specific doctrines it is way to easy to hurt a T8 3+ save vehicle. Granted dedicated AT weaponry does it even better but that just further drives the point that the lethality of the game is way too high. -1 damage would be good or a 2+ save as well. But as it is

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 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

It takes 27 heavy bolter shots from a BS3 platform to bracket a Predator, 36 if it uses Smokescreen. I don't think they're a big problem for tanks, but giving tanks -1 damage similar to dreadnoughts would solve that problem, as would giving them 2+ saves. Agreed on Tank Shock needing a return.


So 9 heavy bolters and that’s in a vacuum. With stratagems, litanies, doctrines, and chapter specific doctrines it is way to easy to hurt a T8 3+ save vehicle. Granted dedicated AT weaponry does it even better but that just further drives the point that the lethality of the game is way too high. -1 damage would be good or a 2+ save as well. But as it is


9 HBs to bracket - or 6 damage. You'd need a bunch more and HBs aren't that plentiful.

   
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I still agree with the people talking about defensive buffs. I like the idea of Tank Shock returning, and I like the -1 to damage although I feel like that's somewhat over-blown in terms of utility. I was thinking about something like a POTMS specific to Predators that allows them to not degrade maybe?

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

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 Xenomancers wrote:

Melta is all going to that damage profile. You are complaining about the release schedule of rules...totally valid. It stinks of "space marines should be worse" because you are defending an admech lascannon being better for the same cost as a marine lascannon.

The weapon has already been updated. Space marine lascannons were omitted from the stat increases of weapons for 9th edition armies. Literally - admech lascannons at d3+3 and space marine ones are d6. For I believe the exact same cost. I don't care how they fix it. They need to fix it though. Ork rockets don't really need an adjustment...they are already flat 3 damage. They should just pay less points for them. Totally fine with ork weapons having inferior stats and paying less for them. That is how orks should work.


I'm actually calling for Ad mech lascannons to be brought DOWN to space marine levels rather than SMs to be brought up to ad mech levels. The game is too lethal, you would be hard pressed to find anyone who disagrees with that.

But like I said, if you want 3+D3 lascannons than don't get upset when Rokkitz go to flat 4 dmg or they double their shots due to that and the Melta spam being a thing.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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Yes. The Predator, and basically vehicles and monsters in general, is incredibly weak. They don't stand up to incoming firepower anywhere near what they should. Increasing the lethality of guns only makes that worse.

 Xenomancers wrote:
space marine lascannons need to be equal to admech las cannons full stop.
Why? They're different guns. The AdMech keeps the good stuff for themselves.

Your axe to grind seems to be differences between Marines and AdMech weapons, and not with the obvious issues vehicles/monsters face in 9th.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/11 01:16:48


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D3+3 damage is great. I want lascannons to be changed to that too. Its not the problem of anti tank weapons being too strong. Rolling a 1 on damage for a lascannon is terrible feels bad moment.

Anti tank weapons should feel like anti tank weapons. The feature of a good anti tank weapon is that it has very few shots, but when it does hit and get through, the damage is big.

I am perfectly fine with a tank being destroyed by a few anti tank weapons concentrating on it. That is per design AND logic. It should be the most efficient and best option to use anti tank weapons like lascannons to destroy a tank and they should be good at it. Far better than the tank being destroyed by lots of bolter fire or many d2 damage anti-elite infantry guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe just boost a predator tank's wounds to 13 or 14 so that they will definitely need at least 3 good 3+d3 damage anti tank shots getting through to kill them.

And this also means if only 2 such weapon shots get through, you will need a lot more of other sorts of fire (bolter or otherwise) to plink away the last few wounds instead of just one or two wounds.

I would compare Redemptors Dreadnaughts to a Predator tank though. Seems like the Redemptor Dreadnaught gets to do everything well, can shoot awesome plus fight well too and yet is more tanky than a proper predator Tank. Why do we have something obviously superior in so many ways than a tank for similar points.

So either the predator tank and similar tanks need to be buffed, or reduced in points so that it is obviously at a lower tier compared to Redemptor Dreadnaughts and pointed appropriately too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/11 03:18:21


 
   
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Eldenfirefly wrote:
D3+3 damage is great. I want lascannons to be changed to that too. Its not the problem of anti tank weapons being too strong. Rolling a 1 on damage for a lascannon is terrible feels bad moment.

Anti tank weapons should feel like anti tank weapons. The feature of a good anti tank weapon is that it has very few shots, but when it does hit and get through, the damage is big.

I am perfectly fine with a tank being destroyed by a few anti tank weapons concentrating on it. That is per design AND logic. It should be the most efficient and best option to use anti tank weapons like lascannons to destroy a tank and they should be good at it. Far better than the tank being destroyed by lots of bolter fire or many d2 damage anti-elite infantry guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe just boost a predator tank's wounds to 13 or 14 so that they will definitely need at least 3 good 3+d3 damage anti tank shots getting through to kill them.

And this also means if only 2 such weapon shots get through, you will need a lot more of other sorts of fire (bolter or otherwise) to plink away the last few wounds instead of just one or two wounds.

I would compare Redemptors Dreadnaughts to a Predator tank though. Seems like the Redemptor Dreadnaught gets to do everything well, can shoot awesome plus fight well too and yet is more tanky than a proper predator Tank. Why do we have something obviously superior in so many ways than a tank for similar points.

So either the predator tank and similar tanks need to be buffed, or reduced in points so that it is obviously at a lower tier compared to Redemptor Dreadnaughts and pointed appropriately too.


D3+3 ready?

A single Squad of Devestators cost 155pts. Turn 1 they get 3 lascannons at BS3 and 2 lascannons at BS2. That averages out to 3.6 hits. Against T8 and below that is 2.44 wounds, with -3AP means the average vehicle will get a 6+ save which results in 2.04 wounds going through which will inflict on average 10dmg in 1 shooting phase. No character buffs/auras just the dev squad alone. That is enough to bracket anything except a Superheavy. Its just 1dmg shy of killing a Predator.

So again, if you really want to buff all these weapons to ridiculous levels of dmg output than you don't get to complain when NOBODY brings vehicles or that your vehicles all die turn 1, or when Xenos get tuned up to imperial levels.


P.S. I am very much aware that those same Dev Marines do MORE dmg vs most vehicles with their Multi-Melta weapons, that isn't a defense of Lascannons, rather its an admission that Melta weapons need either a hefty price increase or a hefty nerf. And that means ALL melta, not merely MM's on devs/bikes/eradicators.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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Bright Lances and Dark Lances have always been slightly better than a lascannon, as they should be. This is coming from a Space Marine player too. They always had an extra ap, and since 3rd edition used to treat armor over 12 as 12, to represent superior technology. Lascannon had more range though ( 4ft vs 3ft ).

Admech im not too sure of as im not familiar with the lore too much. I may have to sit down and read every codex from them to get a better understanding of why they have D3+3 anti tank weapons, seems interesting.

I think Lascannon's are fine honestly, they still do the job, and Marine players like me are all enjoying heavy hellblasters, plasinceptors, eradicators, and melta/MM on alot of choices so its not like we need a buff. If anything it would further imbalance the game to buff the mighty lascannon.

Predator def needs help though, and like I said should cost around 130-150 points. Lets at least get it under a Plageburst Crawler in points cost, lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/11 20:44:49


 
   
Made in us
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 Black Knight wrote:
Bright Lances and Dark Lances have always been slightly better than a lascannon, as they should be. This is coming from a Space Marine player too. They always had an extra ap, and since 3rd edition used to treat armor over 12 as 12, to represent superior technology. Lascannon had more range though ( 4ft vs 3ft ).


lances were only better vs armor 14, even on 13, and worse on 12 or less. but then things got immunity to lances, monoliths, certain landraider hull varients... the units lances were intended to kill...

"If you are forced to use your trump card, then the battle is already lost" 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:


D3+3 ready?

A single Squad of Devestators cost 155pts. Turn 1 they get 3 lascannons at BS3 and 2 lascannons at BS2. That averages out to 3.6 hits. Against T8 and below that is 2.44 wounds, with -3AP means the average vehicle will get a 6+ save which results in 2.04 wounds going through which will inflict on average 10dmg in 1 shooting phase. No character buffs/auras just the dev squad alone. That is enough to bracket anything except a Superheavy. Its just 1dmg shy of killing a Predator.

So again, if you really want to buff all these weapons to ridiculous levels of dmg output than you don't get to complain when NOBODY brings vehicles or that your vehicles all die turn 1, or when Xenos get tuned up to imperial levels.


P.S. I am very much aware that those same Dev Marines do MORE dmg vs most vehicles with their Multi-Melta weapons, that isn't a defense of Lascannons, rather its an admission that Melta weapons need either a hefty price increase or a hefty nerf. And that means ALL melta, not merely MM's on devs/bikes/eradicators.


Yea wishing for D3+3 LC will functionally kill MM again and Marines will have the greatest density of said damage type. Chickens definitely need a 10 point bump at least, but aside from those it is hard to pack them in as much.

   
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Altima wrote:
I'm guessing by context that the original poster mean that, creatively Disney is running on fumes. Which makes sense, as they seem to have stopped doing anything original themselves and are just relying on existing IP's and nostalgia and not even properly capitalizing on those, just going through the motions on what they think will make them the most money and getting their hands on as many existing, successful IP's as money will let them.

Uh, what? Maybe 5 years ago that was kinda-sorta true, now? When they made Raya and the Last Dragon? Big Hero 6? Zootopia? Moana? Wreck-It Ralph? Half a dozen other minor, no less original movies? Wot? Nostalgia for what, exactly? In fact all of these movies attracted screeching they are too new, too fresh, and too diverse for it to be true

I also find Last Jedi whine really hilarious, as it was the most original SW movie since Empire Strikes Back (and probably the best, too, especially in art department) but since it dared to show realistic consequences of the war plus character development instead of usual pew pew bang bang solving everything it apparently is too original and creative for its own good

Ditto for GW, a company that made Lumineth, DoK and new Stormcast being creatively bankrupt is as dumb as the same claim applied to Disney and regardless of how we twist what the OP said, it deserves only one reply:


   
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 Irbis wrote:

I also find Last Jedi whine really hilarious, as it was the most original SW movie since Empire Strikes Back (and probably the best, too, especially in art department) but since it dared to show realistic consequences of the war plus character development instead of usual pew pew bang bang solving everything it apparently is too original and creative for its own good

That has to be some very interesting definition of creative and of consequences of war. The movie has horrible fights, like a sports school could make better looking fights. Had zero development for characters, and some characters like Finn or Rose Tico actually regressed in development. There were characters that story arcs made no sense, heroes that were a dislikable and some characters were intreduced in the middle of the last movie and piloted as if the movie watcher was suppose to like or care about them. The last trilogy was the first Star Wars movies I watched, after that my dad showed me the older movies, and the animated series. And after watching those, and later on the Mandalorian, I have no idea why the last trilogy was made and for whom it was suppose to be done. From what I understand the older fans didn't like it, and new watchers found the movie dull. My dad said he watched older star war stuff over and over again, I watched the new trilogy one time and I had enough of it.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:
 Irbis wrote:

I also find Last Jedi whine really hilarious, as it was the most original SW movie since Empire Strikes Back (and probably the best, too, especially in art department) but since it dared to show realistic consequences of the war plus character development instead of usual pew pew bang bang solving everything it apparently is too original and creative for its own good

That has to be some very interesting definition of creative and of consequences of war. The movie has horrible fights, like a sports school could make better looking fights. Had zero development for characters, and some characters like Finn or Rose Tico actually regressed in development. There were characters that story arcs made no sense, heroes that were a dislikable and some characters were intreduced in the middle of the last movie and piloted as if the movie watcher was suppose to like or care about them. The last trilogy was the first Star Wars movies I watched, after that my dad showed me the older movies, and the animated series. And after watching those, and later on the Mandalorian, I have no idea why the last trilogy was made and for whom it was suppose to be done. From what I understand the older fans didn't like it, and new watchers found the movie dull. My dad said he watched older star war stuff over and over again, I watched the new trilogy one time and I had enough of it.


Wow, today is starting off weird, I'm agreeing with Karol completely. The entire new trilogy was hot garbage. I've never been a HUGE star wars fan, but I've watched the original and prequal trilogy at least a few times (2-4 times each) the new movies? once each. I actually hated the first two movies so much that I didn't even want to see the 3rd movie, and went to see it in theaters because my friend owns the theater and gave my wife and I free tickets. What is weird is Rogue One is actually a REALLY good movie in comparison and i've watched that one two or three times. Honestly, I struggle to understand how anyone actually liked any of the new trilogy movies, the plot was nonsensical, they killed off fan favorite characters with no rhyme or reason and in some cases no backstory or impact. Case and point, Admiral Ackbar is killed off in Last Jedi and its barely even mentioned. They throw out canon on a whim to make a random "hero" character seem heroic and than immediately after they make a massive show out of this they retcon it IN THE MOVIE. Admiral Pink Hair, (apparently they needed an admiral to make into a hero....if only there was a famous admiral character in 4 or 5 movies they could have used to sacrifice to advance the plot line) Kamikazi's her ship into the Order's capital vessel at light speed which apparently means it destroys it...right. If only they had known that worked when they fought the deathstar. But its ok, because like 10 seconds later Finn says something ridiculous like "that was a 1 in a million chance" oh ok, totally makes sense than.

Anyway thanks for the chance to get drastically off topic about a terrible movie trilogy that should be and I believe is being retconned out of existence. And as far as Predator tanks are concerned. I still see no better argument than upgrading its defense while simultaneously downgrading the deadliness of weapons in the game.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
 
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