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Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Gert wrote:
Honestly, I think the best course of action would be to establish the existence of non-Chaos/Imperial human empires scattered around the galaxy. That way if people want to play their own human empire, there's precedent for it.

That's fair. It is kind of silly how anything human is either Imperial or Chaos. What about secessionist worlds that aren't in league with Chaos?

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





Personally, I'd go the wizard route. The Imperium starts sweating when there are two psykers without a bolter pointed at their head for five minutes, so let's make our hypothetical new human faction the opposite. Thanks to some convenient (but grimdark) McGuffin, they can use psychic powers in a safe-ish way and have embraced it. Their society is heavily divided between psykers and non-psykers, with all the extra grimdark potential that implies. Their armies can basically be meat-shield infantry in front of witches and wizards lobbing warp-fireballs at the enemy. Thanks to magitech nonsense, they could look pretty weird and unique for the aesthetic part.

I think there's plenty of room to make something distinct enough from the rest that way. And that's just a quick random idea I came up with in a few minutes; there's tons of possibilities in a setting with the kind of wacky science and magic there is in 40k.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

You would have to explain why Chaos hasn't gotten a hold of that society though. Even with a macguffin Chaos will try to find a way to get to them.
Also, wouldn't the psykers rise to power and effectively take control of the non-psyker populace? It would be something of a cruel mirror of the Imperium's treatment of psykers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/22 00:02:59


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Well, compared to demons and Dark Eldar they are sort of less evil.
That's really not saying much though.


Nah. Dark Eldar literally survive by the cruelty they inflict; they're more justified than the Imperium. In the case of demons, that's just the Imperium's own cruelty reflected back at itself. The Imperium is so gakky, the negative emotions of everyone in it change the warp to be the hellscape that it is. The Imperium is hoist by its own petard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
The Imperium genocides peaceful, harmless aliens, as well as humans who display birth defects. They are intentionally derivative of horrible regimes like the third reich. Calling them "nazis, but justified" like Gert is doing is exactly missing the point.


Jeez, this always comes up with you in these discussions. The point as you mentioned is that the imperium, even though it's utterly terrible, is less terrible than Chaos and the eternity of torment that awaits it's worshipers at the end of the line. It's less terrible than tyranids, who can not be argued with in any circumstance and it's way less terrible than dark eldar. The imperium is terrible and cruel because of it's dogmatism, stupidity and regression in technology. The dark eldar purposefully and willingly chose to be the worst sadists in the galaxy, even though another path (that of craftworld eldar) was shown and offered to them...they represent pure and utter evil.

So, and this is always misunderstood in these discussions, the interesting part about the imperium is that, despite being one of the worst theocratic regimes imaginable, it's still not as terrible as much of the other big threats lurking about within the galaxy....hence the grimdarkness of the setting we all enjoy. Recognizing and appreciating this fact from a storytelling perspective does not mean one is in favor of any form of fascism. It's a complete non sequitur.


No, if the Imperium was the "lesser evil" like you suggest, the setting would be grimbright. The point is that the Imperium is the "cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable." And by being so cruel, it actually makes its own survival less likely - it makes Chaos, its main rival, more powerful with all the negative emotions the citizens of the Imperium are skeeting out, and their ignorant anti-science attitudes mean that their technology base is slowly decaying. And their genocidal attitudes mean that other alien races, who might be potential allies, have no interest in working with them.

If you're looking for the "hard choices in a dark galaxy, for the lesser evil" faction, that's Tau. A lot of people don't like that because they wanted to play the future nazis, coded as mostly European, as the "good guys," but that's how it is.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/22 03:42:04


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Hecaton wrote:


If you're looking for the "hard choices in a dark galaxy, for the lesser evil" faction, that's Tau. A lot of people don't like that because they wanted to play the future nazis, coded as mostly European, as the "good guys," but that's how it is.


Obvious question here: what are you trying to imply about imperial players here, if the imperium is as fascist as you claim?
   
Made in eu
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hecaton wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Well, compared to demons and Dark Eldar they are sort of less evil.
That's really not saying much though.


Nah. Dark Eldar literally survive by the cruelty they inflict; they're more justified than the Imperium. In the case of demons, that's just the Imperium's own cruelty reflected back at itself. The Imperium is so gakky, the negative emotions of everyone in it change the warp to be the hellscape that it is. The Imperium is hoist by its own petard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
The Imperium genocides peaceful, harmless aliens, as well as humans who display birth defects. They are intentionally derivative of horrible regimes like the third reich. Calling them "nazis, but justified" like Gert is doing is exactly missing the point.


Jeez, this always comes up with you in these discussions. The point as you mentioned is that the imperium, even though it's utterly terrible, is less terrible than Chaos and the eternity of torment that awaits it's worshipers at the end of the line. It's less terrible than tyranids, who can not be argued with in any circumstance and it's way less terrible than dark eldar. The imperium is terrible and cruel because of it's dogmatism, stupidity and regression in technology. The dark eldar purposefully and willingly chose to be the worst sadists in the galaxy, even though another path (that of craftworld eldar) was shown and offered to them...they represent pure and utter evil.

So, and this is always misunderstood in these discussions, the interesting part about the imperium is that, despite being one of the worst theocratic regimes imaginable, it's still not as terrible as much of the other big threats lurking about within the galaxy....hence the grimdarkness of the setting we all enjoy. Recognizing and appreciating this fact from a storytelling perspective does not mean one is in favor of any form of fascism. It's a complete non sequitur.


No, if the Imperium was the "lesser evil" like you suggest, the setting would be grimbright. The point is that the Imperium is the "cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable." And by being so cruel, it actually makes its own survival less likely - it makes Chaos, its main rival, more powerful with all the negative emotions the citizens of the Imperium are skeeting out, and their ignorant anti-science attitudes mean that their technology base is slowly decaying. And their genocidal attitudes mean that other alien races, who might be potential allies, have no interest in working with them.

If you're looking for the "hard choices in a dark galaxy, for the lesser evil" faction, that's Tau. A lot of people don't like that because they wanted to play the future nazis, coded as mostly European, as the "good guys," but that's how it is.


No, just no. The dark eldar are not a tragic faction in any way shape or form because they have to inflict suffering to survive. They willingly chose to keep their sadistic ways and go down the rabbit hole of depravity further than anyone before. They specifically chose not to take the difficult and disciplined path like the craftworld eldar. Nobody forced them to become the worst sadists in the galaxy, it was their conscious decision. They are pure and utter evil....and that's cool by me, it's an interesting faction, but saying they are more justified than the imperium in their cruelty is just utterly ridiculous. I know you have a hate boner for the imperium and that's fine I guess, but this comparison especially really does not hold up.

As to your second point: I did not say the imperium was THE lesser evil, just that it is less evil than dark eldar and chaos, which it obviously is. We've had this discussion before in another thread and there you also kept implying that everyone who does not agree with you supports fascist ideology. I want you to once and for all clarify your stance on whether you believe that I or people in this thread just want to play "future nazis" to act out their fascist fantasies or whatever, based on the discussion in this thread. Because if you genuinely do believe that, we have nothing further to discuss.

Edti: you also keep proving that you really do not know much about the lore. The negative emotions caused by the imperium did not turn the warp into a hellscape, the war in heaven did. The chaos gods existed way before humanity did.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/22 06:39:02


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





I don't know much about elf lore because I don't care about elves in any setting, but it's always confounded me how embracing the worst aspects of Slaanesh does anything to keep the drukhari out of their grasp.
   
Made in eu
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Arachnofiend wrote:
I don't know much about elf lore because I don't care about elves in any setting, but it's always confounded me how embracing the worst aspects of Slaanesh does anything to keep the drukhari out of their grasp.


A couple of factors: for one them being in the webway shielded them from slaaneshs birthcry, which wiped out most of eldar civilisation. The dark eldar soon realized that being in the webway does not shield them from slaanesh completely. They feel a constant pull, a drain within them that makes their souls age and wither and when they inevitably die, slaanesh comes and collects their souls for an eternety of torment.
They have learned however that by inflicting pain upon other beings, they can rejuvinate their souls and bodies and temporarily stave off slaaneshs grasp. The older they become, the more dulled down they become however. This is why they need more and more exotic and depraved ways of torture to rejuvinate themselves and keep going. Basically the dark eldar have such a colossal ego that their plan for dealing with slaanesh is to just live forever by letting others suffer for them.

And it's not like they were pushed into this circumstance without choice. They were warned way before the fall of eldar civilisation and the birth of slaanesh, but they actively chose to keep their lifestyle. They even know that there is an alternative in the disciplined path the craftworld eldar have taken....but that's just too much work and also boring.
So yeah, I stand by my assessment: the dark eldar are probably the most evil faction in the entire setting.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Well, when it comes to the original question, there are three aspects overall.
One - the genetic makeup of the warriors in question as Space Marines have a bunch of internal upgrades and augmentations, but some branches have lost some of those upgrades while others suffer from upgrade mutation … sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. Fully half of all mariness draw form Ultramarine Geneseed, which wasn't perfect (they've lost a few upgrades) but which has been stunningly *stable* and mutation-free.

Two - Training. Some marines are simply better trained than others due to a host of factors. The Mentor Legion were better at teaching than fighting, for instance. They weren't *bad* at fighting, but they put a TON of time into learning how to educate, which cuts into stabbing training. The Space Wolves brawl all the time, but they also have downtime for drinking, feasting, boasting, and fairly unique among the chapters, womanizing. This keeps up their close-combat ability but their marksmanship, as a rule, suffers a bit. Again, not BAD, but it's not their focus.

Lastly is equipment. Some chapters simply have better gear than others. The Minotaurs get great stuff from the High Lords of Terra. Ultramarines have a vast support network. The Dark Angels have a massive vault of Dark Age of Technology stuff that they do NOT lend out. On the other end of the spectrum, you have the Lamentors, who were nearly eradicated, having to get by on salvaged armor, a single limping spaceship, and a lot of prayer. A good arsenal can make up for a lot, but a bad one can cripple even the best fighters.

When you toss in X factors … who needs it more, who's on defense vs who's on offense, terrain, weather, etc, it's real hard to say. There's simply no single chapter that you can point to and say, "Them. They beat all comers." There are just too many situations and factors that can come into play.

I mean, White Scars trying to take a fortress of the Imperial Fists? The Fists are gonna win. The Imperial Fists dropped down to try and run down a bunch of White Scars? The Scars will laugh as they lead the Fists on a merry chase and then destroy them when they run out of gas. Each has a specialty (hit and run vs siege warfare) and, in their element and out of the other one's, they win, but flip the element and the result changes as well.

So, complicated way of saying "It depends" but here we are.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Hecaton wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Well, compared to demons and Dark Eldar they are sort of less evil.
That's really not saying much though.


Nah. Dark Eldar literally survive by the cruelty they inflict; they're more justified than the Imperium. In the case of demons, that's just the Imperium's own cruelty reflected back at itself. The Imperium is so gakky, the negative emotions of everyone in it change the warp to be the hellscape that it is. The Imperium is hoist by its own petard.


The Imperium also need to do the horrible things they do to survive, except they don't actively relish in the suffering they cause.
Daemons don't just feed off of human emotion, they feed off anything with a psychic presence, including xenos. There were xenos civilizations worshipping Chaos long before the Imperium existed, and Slaanesh was created by the Eldar's depravity.
Demons and the warp have been around since the War in Heaven; They are not the Imperium's making.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

Tiberias wrote:

And it's not like they were pushed into this circumstance without choice. They were warned way before the fall of eldar civilisation and the birth of slaanesh, but they actively chose to keep their lifestyle.


Off topic, I admit, but you started it.

Who was warned? How many generations have passed since the Aledari race fell? Only two individuals out of the entire race, Vect and Rakarth, were alive at the time. The race as a whole are only guilty of a form of original/inherited sin.

Tiberias wrote:
They even know that there is an alternative in the disciplined path the craftworld eldar have taken....but that's just too much work and also boring.
So yeah, I stand by my assessment: the dark eldar are probably the most evil faction in the entire setting.


It wouldn't matter if they pursued the Craftworld Path system, because it is dependant on Soulstones, of which the Drukhari have the net total of fuckall.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/22 12:41:52


Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 harlokin wrote:

Off topic, I admit, but you started it.

Who was warned? How many generations have passed since the Aledari race fell? Only two individuals out of the entire race, Vect and Rakarth, were alive at the time. The race as a whole are only guilty of a form of original/inherited sin.

IIRC it was more those who became the Craftworlders and Exodites who said "hey you better stop being hedonistic you rapscallions or you'll ruin society".
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

 Gert wrote:
 harlokin wrote:

Off topic, I admit, but you started it.

Who was warned? How many generations have passed since the Aledari race fell? Only two individuals out of the entire race, Vect and Rakarth, were alive at the time. The race as a whole are only guilty of a form of original/inherited sin.

IIRC it was more those who became the Craftworlders and Exodites who said "hey you better stop being hedonistic you rapscallions or you'll ruin society".


Yup yup, I agree.

I was just arguing against Commorites M41 being cuplable for The Fall, which occured likely thousands of years before they were born.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 harlokin wrote:

Yup yup, I agree.

I was just arguing against Commorites M41 being cuplable for The Fall, which occured likely thousands of years before they were born.

Oh for sure. None of the old Houses even remain in Commoragh, they were wiped out by Vect's new Kabals. An individual might be the descendant of one of the old bloodlines but even for the long-lived Aeldari, there isn't anyone left from the Fall in Drukhari society, at least not as they were since Vect was a sacrificial slave and Rakarth has died so many times he probably doesn't remember it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/22 13:08:20


 
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




 harlokin wrote:
 Gert wrote:
 harlokin wrote:

Off topic, I admit, but you started it.

Who was warned? How many generations have passed since the Aledari race fell? Only two individuals out of the entire race, Vect and Rakarth, were alive at the time. The race as a whole are only guilty of a form of original/inherited sin.

IIRC it was more those who became the Craftworlders and Exodites who said "hey you better stop being hedonistic you rapscallions or you'll ruin society".


Yup yup, I agree.

I was just arguing against Commorites M41 being cuplable for The Fall, which occured likely thousands of years before they were born.


The dark eldar are probably one of the very few faction where you can actually still find people from before the fall if you were to look hard enough, especially among the haemunculi covens. That's beside the point though, I wasn't arguing that all or the majority of M41 dark eldar are responsible for the fall...eldar society at large was responsible back then, commoragh only played a part in that.
My point is that it's not a secret or new information that there are ways out of the torturous ways of the dark eldar, like the path of the craftworld eldar or the more primitive life of the exodites. It's also not like those paths are closed off to them, there are instances of dark eldar changing their ways (path of the...something series if memory serves). Which is why their lifestyle of inflicting the most sadistic ways of torture is unnecessary and therefore utterly evil.
Again, which is cool by me. They are an extremely interesting faction with amazing models, I wouldn't want to miss them or change them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/22 14:24:32


 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Dark Eldar as presented are quite fun and interesting, but I prefer to think of them as decadent corsairs myself. Adds a bit more dimension to them.

   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Weren't they decadent corsairs before 5th ed? The whole thing about them needing to cause suffering to distract Slaanesh is 5th ed fluff, isn't t?

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






They still are decadent corsairs though, the torture and soul-stealing keep them alive, and with that extended life, they take part in pleasures aplenty.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

Corsairs are Asuryani who are going through a 'Drukhari-curious' phase

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/22 15:13:51


Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




You know, if you were feeling frisky, you could probably use the new Beastsnagga rules to make some Eldar Exodites.

You get warriors on beasts, leaders on the same, primitive warriors who're hard as nails … just give 'em pointy ears instead of green skin and call it a good 'un.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Tiberias wrote:

Edti: you also keep proving that you really do not know much about the lore. The negative emotions caused by the imperium did not turn the warp into a hellscape, the war in heaven did. The chaos gods existed way before humanity did.
While the Chaos gods have existed for a long time, the idea that a galaxy spanning, warmongering, xenophobic hegemony somehow doesn't fuel those gods (particularly Khorne and Tzeentch) seems pretty absurd. It could probably be argued that Khorne is a more human variation of the war-god Khaela-Mensha-Khaine, the shattered Eldar war god. We know that Orks have their own gods. . . Eldar do/did . . . So why wouldn't trillions of humans have their own refections/influence on the warp?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Arcanis161 wrote:
Obvious question here: what are you trying to imply about imperial players here, if the imperium is as fascist as you claim?


I'm saying that the reason why people glom on to the Imperium as the "justified' faction has a lot to do with how they're portrayed as European (mostly) and a lot of people interpret the Tau as Asian. Yes, racism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
No, just no. The dark eldar are not a tragic faction in any way shape or form because they have to inflict suffering to survive. They willingly chose to keep their sadistic ways and go down the rabbit hole of depravity further than anyone before. They specifically chose not to take the difficult and disciplined path like the craftworld eldar. Nobody forced them to become the worst sadists in the galaxy, it was their conscious decision. They are pure and utter evil....and that's cool by me, it's an interesting faction, but saying they are more justified than the imperium in their cruelty is just utterly ridiculous. I know you have a hate boner for the imperium and that's fine I guess, but this comparison especially really does not hold up.


No, it's not. There are at least expedient reasons for the Dark Eldar to do what they do. The Imperium makes its own existence less viable with all of its cruelty, but insists on it because it loves cruelty for cruelty's sake.

Tiberias wrote:
As to your second point: I did not say the imperium was THE lesser evil, just that it is less evil than dark eldar and chaos, which it obviously is. We've had this discussion before in another thread and there you also kept implying that everyone who does not agree with you supports fascist ideology. I want you to once and for all clarify your stance on whether you believe that I or people in this thread just want to play "future nazis" to act out their fascist fantasies or whatever, based on the discussion in this thread. Because if you genuinely do believe that, we have nothing further to discuss.


I think that people who unironically like the Imperium are pro-fascism (or pro-something close to fascism), yeah. This is a society that kills children born with cleft palettes instead of giving them medical care.

Tiberias wrote:
Edti: you also keep proving that you really do not know much about the lore. The negative emotions caused by the imperium did not turn the warp into a hellscape, the war in heaven did. The chaos gods existed way before humanity did.


The Imperium is definitely the strongest influence on it now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The Imperium also need to do the horrible things they do to survive, except they don't actively relish in the suffering they cause.


No, the Imperium does not need to wipe out all intelligent xenos, brutally oppress its own population, KILL BABIES, etc. And they do it gleefully - the loyal worshipers of the Ecclesiarchy are into that gak.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Daemons don't just feed off of human emotion, they feed off anything with a psychic presence, including xenos. There were xenos civilizations worshipping Chaos long before the Imperium existed, and Slaanesh was created by the Eldar's depravity.
Demons and the warp have been around since the War in Heaven; They are not the Imperium's making.


They're not, but the Imperium is the biggest influence on them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/23 05:18:11


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Hecaton wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
Obvious question here: what are you trying to imply about imperial players here, if the imperium is as fascist as you claim?


I'm saying that the reason why people glom on to the Imperium as the "justified' faction has a lot to do with how they're portrayed as European (mostly) and a lot of people interpret the Tau as Asian. Yes, racism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
No, just no. The dark eldar are not a tragic faction in any way shape or form because they have to inflict suffering to survive. They willingly chose to keep their sadistic ways and go down the rabbit hole of depravity further than anyone before. They specifically chose not to take the difficult and disciplined path like the craftworld eldar. Nobody forced them to become the worst sadists in the galaxy, it was their conscious decision. They are pure and utter evil....and that's cool by me, it's an interesting faction, but saying they are more justified than the imperium in their cruelty is just utterly ridiculous. I know you have a hate boner for the imperium and that's fine I guess, but this comparison especially really does not hold up.


No, it's not. There are at least expedient reasons for the Dark Eldar to do what they do. The Imperium makes its own existence less viable with all of its cruelty, but insists on it because it loves cruelty for cruelty's sake.

Tiberias wrote:
As to your second point: I did not say the imperium was THE lesser evil, just that it is less evil than dark eldar and chaos, which it obviously is. We've had this discussion before in another thread and there you also kept implying that everyone who does not agree with you supports fascist ideology. I want you to once and for all clarify your stance on whether you believe that I or people in this thread just want to play "future nazis" to act out their fascist fantasies or whatever, based on the discussion in this thread. Because if you genuinely do believe that, we have nothing further to discuss.


I think that people who unironically like the Imperium are pro-fascism (or pro-something close to fascism), yeah. This is a society that kills children born with cleft palettes instead of giving them medical care.

Tiberias wrote:
Edti: you also keep proving that you really do not know much about the lore. The negative emotions caused by the imperium did not turn the warp into a hellscape, the war in heaven did. The chaos gods existed way before humanity did.


The Imperium is definitely the strongest influence on it now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The Imperium also need to do the horrible things they do to survive, except they don't actively relish in the suffering they cause.


No, the Imperium does not need to wipe out all intelligent xenos, brutally oppress its own population, KILL BABIES, etc. And they do it gleefully - the loyal worshipers of the Ecclesiarchy are into that gak.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Daemons don't just feed off of human emotion, they feed off anything with a psychic presence, including xenos. There were xenos civilizations worshipping Chaos long before the Imperium existed, and Slaanesh was created by the Eldar's depravity.
Demons and the warp have been around since the War in Heaven; They are not the Imperium's making.


They're not, but the Imperium is the biggest influence on them.


Every faction in 40k is self justified in 40k under "might is right" thucydidean sense. Have ye yet not understood the Grim Dark blurb?

Lol trying to sell space slavers and space stalinists as better than others....haha talk about missing the damn point of the setting...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 06:20:36


On Dakkadakka you are quite clearly free to be racist and abusive if it is the right kind of abusive and racist.

If someone calls it out, just shout 'whataboutism' and 'off topic' 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 GoldenHorde wrote:


Every faction in 40k is self justified in 40k under "might is right" thucydidean sense. Have ye yet not understood the Grim Dark blurb?

Lol trying to sell space slavers and space stalinists as better than others....haha talk about missing the damn point of the setting...


Yes, I got that starter set with the Big Black Book back when it came out. The "cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" isn't Cormorragh, it's the Imperium.

The Tau are definitely not Stalinist. And the Imperium practices slavery left, right, and center too.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/23 06:29:11


 
   
Made in eu
Longtime Dakkanaut




I mean, holy fething gak, there is a lot to unpack here...

Hecaton wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
Obvious question here: what are you trying to imply about imperial players here, if the imperium is as fascist as you claim?


I'm saying that the reason why people glom on to the Imperium as the "justified' faction has a lot to do with how they're portrayed as European (mostly) and a lot of people interpret the Tau as Asian. Yes, racism.


You can not be serious. So people who like the imperium as a faction are not only pro fascism, but also racist....got it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hecaton wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
No, just no. The dark eldar are not a tragic faction in any way shape or form because they have to inflict suffering to survive. They willingly chose to keep their sadistic ways and go down the rabbit hole of depravity further than anyone before. They specifically chose not to take the difficult and disciplined path like the craftworld eldar. Nobody forced them to become the worst sadists in the galaxy, it was their conscious decision. They are pure and utter evil....and that's cool by me, it's an interesting faction, but saying they are more justified than the imperium in their cruelty is just utterly ridiculous. I know you have a hate boner for the imperium and that's fine I guess, but this comparison especially really does not hold up.


No, it's not. There are at least expedient reasons for the Dark Eldar to do what they do. The Imperium makes its own existence less viable with all of its cruelty, but insists on it because it loves cruelty for cruelty's sake.


Did you read anything I said about the dark eldar? Or do you again come to that conclusion based on your apparent lack of knowledge of 40k lore? There is no expedient reason for them to do what they do, there are multiple other options availabe, but they insist on it because they love cruely for cruelty's sake. You have such a raging hate boner for the imperium it's almost comical. No matter how obviously, ridiculously evil another faction is, they can not be worse than the imperium.

Hecaton wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
As to your second point: I did not say the imperium was THE lesser evil, just that it is less evil than dark eldar and chaos, which it obviously is. We've had this discussion before in another thread and there you also kept implying that everyone who does not agree with you supports fascist ideology. I want you to once and for all clarify your stance on whether you believe that I or people in this thread just want to play "future nazis" to act out their fascist fantasies or whatever, based on the discussion in this thread. Because if you genuinely do believe that, we have nothing further to discuss.


I think that people who unironically like the Imperium are pro-fascism (or pro-something close to fascism), yeah. This is a society that kills children born with cleft palettes instead of giving them medical care.


This might be the most idiotic thing I've ever read on this forum, and there have been some strong contenders. So if I unironically like the dark eldar as a faction, like I said in this very thread, I'm pro-sadism now?

But just to be sure, let me spell this out for you: unironically liking a faction does NOT mean you support that factions fictional world views. Are all dark eldar players suddenly closeted sadomasochistic sadists? Come on man...this is low, even for you.

You flat out pretend to know what's inside peoples minds and then judge them for it.

Hecaton wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Edti: you also keep proving that you really do not know much about the lore. The negative emotions caused by the imperium did not turn the warp into a hellscape, the war in heaven did. The chaos gods existed way before humanity did.


The Imperium is definitely the strongest influence on it now.


Shifting goalposts much? Don't worry you've proven on multiple occasions that you know very little about the lore, but still make sweeping declarations based on that lack of knowledge, I don't think anyone takes your opinion seriously anymore anyway.


So, what's left to say here...you pretend to know peoples minds for liking or enjoying a fictional faction and then you brand them as pro-fascist and racist by default. You honestly need to take a step back and re-evaluate how you go about judging people, because the close mindedness on display here is actually frightening.
I'm done however, there is no way for me to take the things you say seriously anymore.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 07:03:03


 
   
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Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Hecaton wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:


Every faction in 40k is self justified in 40k under "might is right" thucydidean sense. Have ye yet not understood the Grim Dark blurb?

Lol trying to sell space slavers and space stalinists as better than others....haha talk about missing the damn point of the setting...


Yes, I got that starter set with the Big Black Book back when it came out. The "cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" isn't Cormorragh, it's the Imperium.

The Tau are definitely not Stalinist. And the Imperium practices slavery left, right, and center too.


Your argument is thus:
"My totalitarian bastards are better than your totalitarian bastards because of shallow arbitrary reasons and personal preferences"

I guess DE are mad and self justified because of an intergalactic G-string shortage

Oh no, Tau are not racist they just make all the other species pure vassals underneath them.... hmmm .....

Tau are not racist except despite their super doooper caste system and FORBIDDEN interbreeding policy (sound familiar to a certain historical policy of a certain totalitarian regime you like to cry about) ?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 06:57:22


On Dakkadakka you are quite clearly free to be racist and abusive if it is the right kind of abusive and racist.

If someone calls it out, just shout 'whataboutism' and 'off topic' 
   
Made in eu
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
Tiberias wrote:

Edti: you also keep proving that you really do not know much about the lore. The negative emotions caused by the imperium did not turn the warp into a hellscape, the war in heaven did. The chaos gods existed way before humanity did.
While the Chaos gods have existed for a long time, the idea that a galaxy spanning, warmongering, xenophobic hegemony somehow doesn't fuel those gods (particularly Khorne and Tzeentch) seems pretty absurd. It could probably be argued that Khorne is a more human variation of the war-god Khaela-Mensha-Khaine, the shattered Eldar war god. We know that Orks have their own gods. . . Eldar do/did . . . So why wouldn't trillions of humans have their own refections/influence on the warp?


And again...

What did I write? And what was the point in contention? Seriously, no offense but nothing you say in your post was argued about.

I did not say that the imperium does not fuel the chaos gods, it obviously does. I just refuted Hecatons claim that the warp turned into a hellscape because of the imperium, which it absolutely did not. The colossal conflicts during the war in heaven, which made the heresy and the crusade look likes childs play, turned the warp into a hellscape.

The point is that humanity was screwed from the beginning. The imperium is cruel and stupid, but there being 4 very personal gods who are actively malicious and prey on human minds and souls, is one of the very few things that is not the imperiums own fault.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 07:15:06


 
   
Made in au
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Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

I like how the godwins law guy and co completely ignore that the results of the Horus Heresy DIRECTLY caused a degeneracy of the imperium, and then blame the imperium based on the degenerate form it took after taking a black eye from the ruinous powers.

There's a big difference between pre HH imperium and post HH imperium

On Dakkadakka you are quite clearly free to be racist and abusive if it is the right kind of abusive and racist.

If someone calls it out, just shout 'whataboutism' and 'off topic' 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

Tiberias wrote:


Did you read anything I said about the dark eldar? Or do you again come to that conclusion based on your apparent lack of knowledge of 40k lore? There is no expedient reason for them to do what they do, there are multiple other options availabe, but they insist on it because they love cruely for cruelty's sake. You have such a raging hate boner for the imperium it's almost comical. No matter how obviously, ridiculously evil another faction is, they can not be worse than the imperium.


What other options? The Asuryani path system 'works' because they have soul stones, and even then, the very limited availability means that they are barely able to reproduce.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in eu
Longtime Dakkanaut




GoldenHorde wrote:I like how the godwins law guy and co completely ignore that the results of the Horus Heresy DIRECTLY caused a degeneracy of the imperium, and then blame the imperium based on the degenerate form it took after taking a black eye from the ruinous powers.

There's a big difference between pre HH imperium and post HH imperium


Yes, but the imperium was evil and genocidal before the heresy and probably also during the dark age of technology. The 40k imperium is just even worse as evidenced by the fact that Guilliman, a genocidal warlord from the crusade era, is disgusted by much of the 40k imperium.

harlokin wrote:
Tiberias wrote:


Did you read anything I said about the dark eldar? Or do you again come to that conclusion based on your apparent lack of knowledge of 40k lore? There is no expedient reason for them to do what they do, there are multiple other options availabe, but they insist on it because they love cruely for cruelty's sake. You have such a raging hate boner for the imperium it's almost comical. No matter how obviously, ridiculously evil another faction is, they can not be worse than the imperium.


What other options? The Asuryani path system 'works' because they have soul stones, and even then, the very limited availability means that they are barely able to reproduce.


For example, yes. Or the exodite solution, or whatever cegorach does with his halequins (though this is not an option for all eldar most likely, since it's not that easy to become a harlequin) and most recently, the ynnari. The point being that there are actual in lore examples of alternatives. Considering the dark eldar have some of the most advanced tech in the entire galaxy, they could have very well worked together with their cousins in the last ten thousand years after the fall to come up with a solution. Hence why them feeding on suffering is not a cold hard necessity. It definitely wasn't at the beginning and it didn't have to be in the milennia that followed.

They've been warned before the fall and kept being arrogant hedonists. They turned into vampiric sadists and kept this way for ten thousand years, even though there are other options available they could have poured resources into.
   
 
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