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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Formosa wrote:
Spoiler:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Tyel wrote:
I tend to see "wokeness" as militant political correctness. Inevitably this does lean on GW's writing team - but I see very little evidence of it.

Its not woke to go "wait, women are a potential market for our product? They are as open to the whole *power fantasy/being a nerd* we've been flogging to men and boys for decades? Clearly we should include some female characters/minis that they can associate with in the same way as the boys." That's just... market research? Capitalism?.



They did that representation in the 90's with SOB. The association = sales formula doesn't work. It needs appeal. Those are two different things


SoB was never made to appeal to women or girls. They where highly fetishised at that point and this post would ignore entirely there quite successful reboot as well. It was hardly Representation then.
And I would even say, they are more popular with the men now.




Right...so your theory is they were overly sexualised......right....


Um... ok, the only way someone could say the sisters are fetishised is if they find the female form a fetishisation in and of itself, it makes total sense why the armour would accentuate the female form due to the decree of "no men under arms" but that is in no way a fetishisation.

agreeing with Horde on this, its a stretch.


The models are better than the art was back then, but the nun fetish killer is already a trope. The heals on some art, tight corset. And form fit armor.
It wasn’t a design for women and girls, it was for men.
And repentia both concept and design, did not fall out of that as well.
They could be a interesting part of representation if, 40k had treat women in setting better.
New sisters are cleaning that up even more.

Also, the lore excuse gets rather tiring when it’s basically the same all the time. Even if GW back then where probably quite clever in there use of it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 13:44:22


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GoldenHorde wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
I guess it's better than White Scars, which are really a caricature of the Mongols, but that's a low bar to clear.


You forgot rough riders of Attila too,

and while you think it is a caricature to me its a homage and nod just like many others in 40k.


The Huns are an extinct cultural group. The Mongols still exist. Also White Scars artwork, just as past portrayals of Tallarns, are basically Caucasians playing other ethnicities like how you see in movies from the 1950's. For example:

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Jaghatai_Khan?file=JaghataiKhanPencil.jpg

That's from Forge World, not fan art. It's a white guy playing Mongol. If the White Scars were more consistently portrayed in art as say...actually Mongolian in appearance then that's not so much of an issue.

Similarly I disliked the change of Salamanders from dark skinned African phenotype to literally coal black skin, but still Caucasian face features, which if anything can seem like blackface.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 13:46:43


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

The models are better than the art was back then, but the nun fetish killer is already a trope. The heals on some art, tight corset. And form fit armor.


Sorry but no, I lived through the times when sisters were released and there was no mainstream "nun fetish" just as there is none now, black leather and other such things sure but not nuns, also do not forget that Marines and Guard also had similar depictions but are not considered fetishised, this appears to me to be a projection of the persons own desires onto the artistic style rather than the intent of the creators but I could be wrong I grant you.


It wasn’t a design for women and girls, it was for men.


Have you ever visited Tumblr or deviant art, woman create some pretty spicy things much ... spicier that battle sisters so you do cannot say on the one hand its fetishised for just men when woman do the exact same things of their own free will, so who are we to say it was not designed for them.

And repentia both concept and design, did not fall out of that as well.


This one is a clear fetishisation I grant you but a body horror one similar to Geigar
Spoiler:
BDSM/horror


They could be a interesting part of representation if, 40k had treat women in setting better.


they already are represented in the setting perfectly in my entirely subjective opinion, no one should be treated better in 40k, if anything everyone should be dropped down a notch (again subjective)

New sisters are cleaning that up even more.


the new warsuits are garbo but the new sword and board ones are amazingly epic and that is the direction I would like to see sisters go down, also needs more weird added back into the force.

Also, the lore excuse gets rather tiring when it’s basically the same all the time. Even if GW back then where probably quite clever in there use of it


Sorry you think that, the lore explanation is not an excuse, its a valid in universe internally consistent reason, not an outside morally subjective one that has little relevance when discussing the lore, as for GW being clever with their use of it, they made the universe so of course it fits with their concept of it and seems like an odd criticism to be honest especially when discussing the tone of the universe.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/25 14:01:51


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Apple fox wrote:
And repentia both concept and design, did not fall out of that as well.
Repentia have repeatedly been shown as horrific, not fetishised.

Apple fox wrote:
They could be a interesting part of representation if, 40k had treat women in setting better.
Are you kidding? Apart from a couple of very specific organisations, the Imperium doesn't care if you're a man or a woman. Gender and (especially) race matter not one iota in the Imperium.

They only care that you are:

1. Not an alien.
2. Not a mutant.
3. Not a heretic.

Pass all three of those criteria, and you're golden.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/25 13:55:49


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Formosa wrote:
The models are better than the art was back then, but the nun fetish killer is already a trope. The heals on some art, tight corset. And form fit armor.


Sorry but no, I lived through the times when sisters were released and there was no mainstream "nun fetish" just as there is none now, black leather and other such things sure but not nuns, also do not forget that Marines and Guard also had similar depictions but are not considered fetishised, this appears to me to be a projection of the persons own desires onto the artistic style rather than the intent of the creators but I could be wrong I grant you.


It wasn’t a design for women and girls, it was for men.


Have you ever visited Tumblr or deviant art, woman create some pretty spicy things much ... spicier that battle sisters so you do cannot say on the one hand its fetishised for just men when woman do the exact same things of their own free will.

And repentia both concept and design, did not fall out of that as well.


This one is a clear fetishisation I grant you
Spoiler:
BDSM


They could be a interesting part of representation if, 40k had treat women in setting better.


they already are represented in the setting perfectly in my entirely subjective opinion, no one should be treated better in 40k, if anything everyone should be dropped down a notch (again subjective)

New sisters are cleaning that up even more.


the new warsuits are garbo but the new sword and board ones are amazingly epic and that is the direction I would like to see sisters go down, also needs more weird added back into the force.


It was quite the trope here and in some gaming, it doesn’t mean that all are nuns ether just following certain designs. And just since women do, does not mean the design was for.
The sisters as a whole fit a lot of tropes, it’s why I responded.
I quite like sisters, but there has not been models for women other than a few examples elsewhere in the setting.
40k is probably the worst offender now, and this is a issue with tone as you say. There are painfully few in the setting where they should be. And in places where they are treated badly, Oh boy did GW get creative at times.
But modern GW does seem to agree with me, if the setting wants to treat everyone badly. They need to treat the female characters well first.
Or it just ends up edgy.

Also, I do like that repentia art. And like the new models for representation off it. But ohh boy
When we get some more models that represent us on the table, I don’t think it’s too much to ask.
This comes with more characters that are named where they should be, armor suits. Mechs, tank comanders. That adds a lot, even if they end up eaten by tyranids on the table.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 14:12:14


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Most GW use of other cultures back in the day was , by today standards, insensitive. They were middle class british nerds in the late 70-80, thats why the humans were always the europeans (empire, bretonnia, estalia, tilea, the imperium, etc...) and the non-european cultures were used for other races.

Thats was a reality but one that has been left behind. GW has been much better than many others in making substantial changes both for different ethnicities and female representation in their media, art, and miniatures in a way that doesnt feel intrusive, like the female stormcasts, the new sisters of battle, etc... kudos for them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 14:29:34


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Galas wrote:
Most GW use of other cultures back in the day was , by today standards, insensitive. They were middle class british nerds in the late 70-80, thats why the humans were always the europeans (empire, bretonnia, estalia, tilea, the imperium, etc...) and the non-european cultures were used for other races.

Thats was a reality but one that has been left behind. GW has been much better than many others in making substantial changes both for different ethnicities and female representation in their media, art, and miniatures in a way that doesnt feel intrusive, like the female stormcasts, the new sisters of battle, etc... kudos for them.


Well one could argue that the Imperium is a (among other things it borrows from) a caricature of the European Dark Ages mixed with Roman and Victorian influences in a science fantasy setting. The other alien races then are the non-European cultures.

For example, the Eldar thematically draw from multiple sources. Of these, Japan is one of them. Direct evidence of aesthetc borrowings include: the symbol of Iyanden includes a shrine gate design directly analogous to Japanese Shinto torii shrines. The back banners Jes Goodwin was fond of including in Eldar design (and which was present in many 2nd ed. models) matched the back banners worn by Japanese samurai and soldiers during the Japanese Warring States period and are even named as sashimono banners in Jes Goodwin's sketches and notes.

However, the Eldar also have influences from Greek,Celtic, even Egyptian sources. The Corinthian design of Eldar helms, particularly Dire Avenger ones, for example is clear Greek influence. Eldar Craftworld names of Biel-tan and Saim-han are direct copies of the real world Celtic festivals/holidays. The false chin beards on certain Eldar helms such as the Dire Avenger Exarch borrows from the Egyptians (see Egyptian funeral masks), and the Ulthwe design is based off the historical Egyptian Eye of Horus. The chiseled Eldar runes are based off Egyptian hieroglyphs while the more fluid Eldar runes look like those that might be written with a brush, and are either a reference to Egyptian Demotic or Asian brush writing. The Yin/Yang symbols on Eldar transfer sheets or Eldar Titans and Wraithknights is a take on the Chinese concept of Yin and Yang. The seals on the Wraith constructs is referred to by Jes Goodwin in his sketches as tugra, which is a Turk/Ottoman thing. Overlying all of this is the theme of Tolkien elves.

Thematically each of these cultures served as epitome of alien, inscrutable menace to one of the component influences on the Imperium. The Imperium is part Roman, part-medieval and part-Victorian. Romans were simultaneously fascinated and repulsed by the Greeks and Egyptians, medieval western Europeans by the Byzantines (and later Turks) and the Victorians by the Chinese. Fu Manchu, the quintessential "Yellow Peril" villain is pretty much how the Imperium pictures Eldar Farseers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/25 14:38:31


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Iracundus 799882 11181913 wrote:

That's from Forge World, not fan art. It's a white guy playing Mongol. If the White Scars were more consistently portrayed in art as say...actually Mongolian in appearance then that's not so much of an issue.

But he doesn't have to be be a mongol. Uygurs and Türküt did the same things as mongols, often being part of the mongolian army, and they sure as hell did not look like mongols do to day. And efter the sacking of Kiev the mongolian army that pushed in to middle europe had whole contingents of Rus troops.
Timur was the leader of the Golden Horde appointed by Kubilai himself, but his mother and a large portion of his troops were slavic and turkish/tatar mixed with mongols. And he was no less succesful then Tamujin. Why can't the Khan of the WS or his sons look more like that? Specially when the geneseed slowly makes all marines look like their gene sire.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/25 16:06:42


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Karol wrote:
Specially when the geneseed slowly makes all marines look like their gene sire.

That's not true at all. There is a chance an Astartes will share some characteristics of their Primarch such as a Blood Angel being beautiful but it's not even close to common.
Gene-seed can do all manner of things to a human especially the ones with certain mutations. Depending on which Chapter a scion of Sanguinius comes from they could look like New Testament Angels or the could look like Nosferatu vampires with pointed ears and pale skin. The only Chapters that very specifically always end up looking like their Primarchs are the Salamanders (because coal skin and fire eyes) and the Raven Guard (because super pale skin and pitch-black eyes) although this is again seen in varying degrees stages. A Salamander might have slightly grey skin rather than coal-black and a Raven Guard might have dark eyes but have non-pale skin.
Having dark skin and being implanted with Guillimans gene-seed doesn't mean you turn white and get blonde hair.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 16:16:50


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




All salamanders have jetblack skin just as their gene sire. Every other type of marines, aside for those that have a damaged specific organ practically have no stable skin colour, because it changes depending on the radition level they are in and can be changed very fast with use of drugs. In high radition zones, the marine skin can even produce a jelly like substance that covers the marines entire body as an additional layer of protection.


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Which affects the point how exactly? As soon as the Astartes is out of said high sunlight environment, provided they even remove their helmet in the first place, their skin will return to its original pigmentation. This doesn't even consider the fact that a Chapter like the Raven Guard or Salamanders could have a malfunctioning Melanchromic Organ which means this ability might be lost.
Your point about all Astartes turning into images of their Primarchs isn't true.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 16:32:46


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Gert wrote:
Which affects the point how exactly? As soon as the Astartes is out of said high sunlight environment, provided they even remove their helmet in the first place, their skin will return to its original pigmentation. Your point about all Astartes turning into images of their Primarchs isn't true.

Wouldn't all of the melanin be removed from their skin as part of the marine creation process, to avoid conflict with the melanochrome? I would think it would be easier to start from 0 when using an organ that's supposed to control the amount of melanin in response to environmental conditions.
This would also mean that all marines would look like Raven guard upon "birth" until the melanochrome kicks in and puts some colour back, as there is always a bit of ambient radiation. Well, unless you're Raven Guard that is. In that case you're stuck at being a pale boi.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 16:41:45


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




They do. That is why space sharks are pale white. Any other differences to the original skin tone of a chapter are due to further mutation of the gene seed, losing the ability to produce or implant a specific organ, the way imperial fist scions can't spit acid or chew through metal bars, or deus ex machina Cawl making non albion RG succesors. And I suppose there are also the rare mutants of the XIIIth founding, where organs and gene seed from more then one chapter resulted in some specific and strange mutation. Like the bone crests Black Dragons space marines have. That is why I don't really understand the whole marine skin colour thing. They are either fixed and unchangable with very specific mutations, like the infra red sight salamanders have. Or they are fluid.


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in mx
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

 GoldenHorde wrote:

40k's universe already has long running themes and doesn't have a message. If you want messaging go watch captain planet. There's no need to meddle.


40k has a message, or at the very least it used to have one. That is, the IoM is basically a representation of everything that is wrong with humanity, a negative example of what one never has to do.
   
Made in us
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San Jose, CA

It was described as the most brutal regime in humanity's existence. So pretty self explanatory if you ask me.

So it seems that the equation used to be:

War(WWI+WWII)+(helenistic×roman)+(dystopia×lovecraft)=40k

Now it's more like

Noblebright+war+vapidness= 40k
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Why do people think that the lore right now is noblebright? Is it because of the Cawl deus ex machina stuff? To me Cawl stuff is less non grimdark or bright, and more just bad writing. Specially after the squeeze of 200years of crusade in to 12 years, which makes for some crazy numbers like creating whole marine chapters in a week and taking planets under 24h if they were to fit in to 12 terran years, with how much the crusade reconquered.

So maybe the lore didn't change, it is just worse writers working on it.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Karol wrote:
Why do people think that the lore right now is noblebright? Is it because of the Cawl deus ex machina stuff? To me Cawl stuff is less non grimdark or bright, and more just bad writing. Specially after the squeeze of 200years of crusade in to 12 years, which makes for some crazy numbers like creating whole marine chapters in a week and taking planets under 24h if they were to fit in to 12 terran years, with how much the crusade reconquered.

So maybe the lore didn't change, it is just worse writers working on it.


Because its going that way it "Seems", for example the new Plague war book has a marines commenting on the fact the primaris are more progressive than their older marine brothers when it comes to new technology and tactics, then throw in the deus ex machina of mary sue cawl and the resurgence of new (not re discovered) tech for the space marines and imperium at large, it "seems" like its not longer teetering on the edge but having a massive resurgence.

This is purely down to GW mishandling as usual though, Chaos being the big bad but always losing and having a joke of a codex really does not help either, they need to hand some permanent and severe defeats to the imperium, kill of Dante, Calgar or some other major characters or a major world like Fenris, give the bad guys some damned teeth
   
Made in nl
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

The lore changed the universe, bad writing is beside the point. Cawl is a heretic. This is clear to anyone loyal to the Emperor. But, he is not recognized as such. Thus, the universe is either noble and bright or chaos has already won.

My money is on chaos has won.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Racerguy180 wrote:
It was described as the most brutal regime in humanity's existence. So pretty self explanatory if you ask me.

So it seems that the equation used to be:

War(WWI+WWII)+(helenistic×roman)+(dystopia×lovecraft)=40k

Now it's more like

Noblebright+war+vapidness= 40k


To the old equation, I might add Heinlein and maybe some Kubrick both Clockwork Orange (og marines were thugs as in the end of that story) and Space Odyssey, plus metal music.

To the new one, I might put vapid in bold, war in quotations, and add collectible cards.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 20:40:52


   
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5th-7th Edition is the ideal to me. That's what I was drawing crude pictures of as a kid.

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 jeff white wrote:
The lore changed the universe, bad writing is beside the point. Cawl is a heretic. This is clear to anyone loyal to the Emperor. But, he is not recognized as such. Thus, the universe is either noble and bright or chaos has already won.

My money is on chaos has won.

Chaos won when the Imperium decided Lorgar was right, frankly.
   
Made in mx
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

Chaos hasn't won, but that is more because Chaos eventually will have to fight the Orks, Necrons and Tyranids over who gets the corpse of the IoM.

But humanity? yeah it is basically FUBAR, they just hadn't quite realized it yet.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/25 20:52:33


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Galas wrote:
Most GW use of other cultures back in the day was , by today standards, insensitive. They were middle class british nerds in the late 70-80, thats why the humans were always the europeans (empire, bretonnia, estalia, tilea, the imperium, etc...) and the non-european cultures were used for other races.

Thats was a reality but one that has been left behind. GW has been much better than many others in making substantial changes both for different ethnicities and female representation in their media, art, and miniatures in a way that doesnt feel intrusive, like the female stormcasts, the new sisters of battle, etc... kudos for them.


Age of Wonders: Planetfall includes a Russian space dwarf faction. No one was insulted because of this. I think people are getting too easily offended these days, if they think there was a nefarious, ulterior motive behind GW choosing humans for the Europeans in the Old World.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Strg Alt wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Most GW use of other cultures back in the day was , by today standards, insensitive. They were middle class british nerds in the late 70-80, thats why the humans were always the europeans (empire, bretonnia, estalia, tilea, the imperium, etc...) and the non-european cultures were used for other races.

Thats was a reality but one that has been left behind. GW has been much better than many others in making substantial changes both for different ethnicities and female representation in their media, art, and miniatures in a way that doesnt feel intrusive, like the female stormcasts, the new sisters of battle, etc... kudos for them.


Age of Wonders: Planetfall includes a Russian space dwarf faction. No one was insulted because of this. I think people are getting too easily offended these days, if they think there was a nefarious, ulterior motive behind GW choosing humans for the Europeans in the Old World.

They also chose Americans for Dark Elves.
You know, the race of murder loving slavers

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Most GW use of other cultures back in the day was , by today standards, insensitive. They were middle class british nerds in the late 70-80, thats why the humans were always the europeans (empire, bretonnia, estalia, tilea, the imperium, etc...) and the non-european cultures were used for other races.

Thats was a reality but one that has been left behind. GW has been much better than many others in making substantial changes both for different ethnicities and female representation in their media, art, and miniatures in a way that doesnt feel intrusive, like the female stormcasts, the new sisters of battle, etc... kudos for them.


Age of Wonders: Planetfall includes a Russian space dwarf faction. No one was insulted because of this. I think people are getting too easily offended these days, if they think there was a nefarious, ulterior motive behind GW choosing humans for the Europeans in the Old World.

They also chose Americans for Dark Elves.
You know, the race of murder loving slavers

As an American, yeah that's pretty fair.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Iracundus wrote:
That's from Forge World, not fan art. It's a white guy playing Mongol.
That's neither a white guy, nor is it a Mongol. It's an unnaturally created genetic creature that scarcely counts as 'human', let alone a 'white guy'. And 38,000 years into the future, I'd say there are probably no Mongols left, much like there would be no English, Americans, French, Brazilians, Vietnamese, and so on.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in au
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Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

 Tyran wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:

40k's universe already has long running themes and doesn't have a message. If you want messaging go watch captain planet. There's no need to meddle.


40k has a message, or at the very least it used to have one. That is, the IoM is basically a representation of everything that is wrong with humanity, a negative example of what one never has to do.


and that would be a characteristic of the setting not a message. You could even call it a tone which involves satire and caricature

Typical dakkadakka reaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmXRQeJLhtw 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
That's from Forge World, not fan art. It's a white guy playing Mongol.
That's neither a white guy, nor is it a Mongol. It's an unnaturally created genetic creature that scarcely counts as 'human', let alone a 'white guy'. And 38,000 years into the future, I'd say there are probably no Mongols left, much like there would be no English, Americans, French, Brazilians, Vietnamese, and so on.


Yeah but... the white scars are like, totally mongols. Just like the Thousand Sons are totally egiptian and egiptian looking. Lets not be obtuse and put fluff over common sense and how something is designed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 00:46:52


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran




Sweden

40k should be science fiction gone wrong. It should be a mixture of Mad Max and Star Wars. It should draw upon the most depraved aspects of human history.

Warhammer 40'000 should be grimdark, bonkers and unrelentingly inhumane and cruel with no sane alternatives anywhere to be seen. It should be a place of unavoidable, mechanistic cruelty. It should be an era of lost hope and hypocrisy on every side, all presented with deliciously ironic humour and endless historical references and glorious aesthetics.

40k should be dark. 40k should never be dry and dull. And the Imperium should be a fortified madhouse, a hopeless dead-end of interstellar human galactic civilization and a monster on the prowl in its own right.

Note that the Tau fulfill an important function in such a setting: You need a naïve and optimistic, technologically advanced upstart to be shocked and traumatized by all the insanity and unrelenting horror reigning from end to end of the Milky Way galaxy. Contrast is key. Anyone who thinks the Tau breaks 40k's tone need to think it all over again. If everything is solidly dark everywhere, then nothing is dark. Only by contrasting the Age of Imperium against stuff like the Tau and humanity's lost golden era in the Dark Age of Technology can you hope to get the point across on just how regressed, tyrannical and murderous the dark future truly is.



This message was edited 14 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 01:12:44


   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Apple fox wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
The models are better than the art was back then, but the nun fetish killer is already a trope. The heals on some art, tight corset. And form fit armor.


Sorry but no, I lived through the times when sisters were released and there was no mainstream "nun fetish" just as there is none now, black leather and other such things sure but not nuns, also do not forget that Marines and Guard also had similar depictions but are not considered fetishised, this appears to me to be a projection of the persons own desires onto the artistic style rather than the intent of the creators but I could be wrong I grant you.


It wasn’t a design for women and girls, it was for men.


Have you ever visited Tumblr or deviant art, woman create some pretty spicy things much ... spicier that battle sisters so you do cannot say on the one hand its fetishised for just men when woman do the exact same things of their own free will.

And repentia both concept and design, did not fall out of that as well.


This one is a clear fetishisation I grant you
Spoiler:
BDSM


They could be a interesting part of representation if, 40k had treat women in setting better.


they already are represented in the setting perfectly in my entirely subjective opinion, no one should be treated better in 40k, if anything everyone should be dropped down a notch (again subjective)

New sisters are cleaning that up even more.


the new warsuits are garbo but the new sword and board ones are amazingly epic and that is the direction I would like to see sisters go down, also needs more weird added back into the force.


It was quite the trope here and in some gaming, it doesn’t mean that all are nuns ether just following certain designs. And just since women do, does not mean the design was for.
The sisters as a whole fit a lot of tropes, it’s why I responded.
I quite like sisters, but there has not been models for women other than a few examples elsewhere in the setting.
40k is probably the worst offender now, and this is a issue with tone as you say. There are painfully few in the setting where they should be. And in places where they are treated badly, Oh boy did GW get creative at times.
But modern GW does seem to agree with me, if the setting wants to treat everyone badly. They need to treat the female characters well first.
Or it just ends up edgy.

Also, I do like that repentia art. And like the new models for representation off it. But ohh boy
When we get some more models that represent us on the table, I don’t think it’s too much to ask.
This comes with more characters that are named where they should be, armor suits. Mechs, tank comanders. That adds a lot, even if they end up eaten by tyranids on the table.


The "fetishism" you're annoyed about was actually popularised by the subvertive punk feminism of Siouxsie Sioux. It's been reclaimed, who cares

These guys would make a pretty sick harlie troupe...fit right into grim dark somehow?





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
That's from Forge World, not fan art. It's a white guy playing Mongol.
That's neither a white guy, nor is it a Mongol. It's an unnaturally created genetic creature that scarcely counts as 'human', let alone a 'white guy'. And 38,000 years into the future, I'd say there are probably no Mongols left, much like there would be no English, Americans, French, Brazilians, Vietnamese, and so on.


Yeah but... the white scars are like, totally mongols. Just like the Thousand Sons are totally egiptian and egiptian looking. Lets not be obtuse and put fluff over common sense and how something is designed.


But what's the actual problem with that?
It's a influenced recycle of elements, to me these things are homages and nod to the steppe warriors. It's cool asf

It's no more offensive than space romans...

and when you say "mongols" you actually mean steppe warriors b/c mongols weren't the only steppe warriors.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 01:25:48


Typical dakkadakka reaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmXRQeJLhtw 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Galas wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
That's from Forge World, not fan art. It's a white guy playing Mongol.
That's neither a white guy, nor is it a Mongol. It's an unnaturally created genetic creature that scarcely counts as 'human', let alone a 'white guy'. And 38,000 years into the future, I'd say there are probably no Mongols left, much like there would be no English, Americans, French, Brazilians, Vietnamese, and so on.


Yeah but... the white scars are like, totally mongols. Just like the Thousand Sons are totally egiptian and egiptian looking. Lets not be obtuse and put fluff over common sense and how something is designed.


Indeed. Just like how no one would really contest that Ultramarines and Guilliman are Space Romans. I also don't buy the "But but they are representing a less popularly well known steppe group's leader". GW is not known for being that subtle or obscure in its references. Guilliman's adoptive father was Space Julius Caesar. The Necromunda Ratskins were Native Americans and the original Deathwing with feathers were Native American. It's pretty obvious the White Scars are meant to evoke to the average reader Space Mongols, not Space Kyrghyz. Yes we mean Space Mongols.

The issue is less White Scars being Space Mongols in a universe of Space Romans and Space Vikings, but more of they are Space Mongols being portrayed in art as white guys playing Mongols, like out of the 1950's. The modern term is "racebending" or whitewashing, where the ethnicity of a character is either changed in the story or is portrayed by someone not of that ethnicity (and often not even adjacent or remotely close). Often the issue when it has come to things like movies, it has been accompanied by convoluted or unconvincing arguments about why for example in a movie like Aloha, a character 1/4 Chinese 1/4 native Hawaiian is best portrayed by a lily white red haired actress of Swedish background mixed with German, English, Scottish, and Irish with not a trace of anything from Asia or Oceania. I.e. the criticized reasoning of "European stories are best portrayed by European background actors. Non-European stories are still best portrayed by European background actors."

Now I am not screaming for GW to be crucified for the White Scars, but I think it would be helpful and low hanging fruit if GW is trying for a more diverse image (as I mentioned earlier from its apparent new book cover policy) if they portray the Primarch whose whole theme is Space Mongols to be at least Asian in appearance. Now before people try to claim that the Space Mongol story doesn't have to be portrayed by an Asian, then why does Space Roman Guilliman have to be shown in appearance as a take off of Roman emperors like Augustus? Why not show Guilliman as African phenotype or Asian? Again GW is not known for being subtle with these kinds of historical references. If someone is trying to argue why it is somehow so necessary for Guilliman to be shown as European/Caucasian appearance to match the Roman theme but somehow Jaghatai Khan does not need to be shown as Asian despite the Mongol theme, then I refer you back above to the racebending/whitewashing issue and its double standards.

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 03:03:45


 
   
 
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