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Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





The card system could be good, but I don't think it is working properly. Whenever anyone say "choose cards" my head start to ache. There are 158 sub-plots. 396 tactics (+13 underdog tactics). It is a nightmare for new players to have to read through all without knowledge about which ones are good or not. And it is not an easy task for experienced players either. And instead of utilizing the full range of cards, the same top 5 cards are used every battle.

Want me to choose cards before the battle? Ok, see you in a couple of hours...
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





Rihgu wrote:
I've found that tactics cards like Click, History of Violence, and Dangerous Footing can be very useful for taking out a turbo-gang's turbo-best turbo-fighter and bringing their runaway gang rating down to your level. And hey, if they want to do the same thing to you... well you took out their 800 credit monster fighter and they took out... your 180 credit monster fighter. One team lost a lot more than the other...


That´s why should draw tactic cards randomly like you did in Blood Bowl when there were Random Events, Magic Items and Dirty Tricks available. Otherwise you will have the Click card in every match.
   
Made in us
Manhunter





Sticksville, Texas

 Strg Alt wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
I've found that tactics cards like Click, History of Violence, and Dangerous Footing can be very useful for taking out a turbo-gang's turbo-best turbo-fighter and bringing their runaway gang rating down to your level. And hey, if they want to do the same thing to you... well you took out their 800 credit monster fighter and they took out... your 180 credit monster fighter. One team lost a lot more than the other...


That´s why should draw tactic cards randomly like you did in Blood Bowl when there were Random Events, Magic Items and Dirty Tricks available. Otherwise you will have the Click card in every match.


While likely a contentious move, I wouldn't be sad to see all the current Tactics/Underdog/whatever cards dropped and replaced by a SINGLE pack of cards that STAYS in print.
   
Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 Toofast wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What a wierd restriction: Tactics Cards? Yeah, don't use 'em! Ok he can, but, like, only from this deck. Or the other deck, but only half the normal amount. No I don't care what the scenario says!


Seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Newcromunda has a lot of issues with balance but tactics cards would be the last thing on my mind causing poor balance. It's almost solely to do with how xp, rep and credits are distributed. Allowing the gang with less wealth to choose intrigues for each game while the other gang has to choose them randomly is the first place I would start addressing that.


Dunno, seeing as I mostly abhor that kinda mechanic, I'd rather not use it at all.
   
Made in ca
Terrifying Wraith





Canada

I come late in this topic and i think im at the opposite of all what i read here.

Im playing Necromunda since a year and a half and what I understood is the game is made to be unbalanced. You win, you got the loot. You lost, you got the scrap.

For me, the role of the Arbitrator is to manage the "who go what".

The only thing the bad unbalanced game come from come from the players. If you have people who just want to have fun around a few beers, the unbalanced and the flaw are not a big deal. When you are playing with hardcore players or WAAC, even a arbitrator, taxes or a balance system does nothing.

just enjoyed the game...

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






The game would still be better for the players who 'just want to have fun' if it was better balanced.

If the game balance is better everyone benefits - in fact the casual players benefit more.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Lord Damocles wrote:
The game would still be better for the players who 'just want to have fun' if it was better balanced.

If the game balance is better everyone benefits - in fact the casual players benefit more.


Imbalances that create choice are interesting, if there are trade off to gain that imbalance then players need to choose to make those trades.
I still learning the new game, but I had been throwing around in my head a maintenance and payment system. Since we plan to do a campaign for about 6 months at a time, we would like to have some kind of self balances in place.
If going to buy a table of terrain, and it’s pricy… we want the experience to be the best we can get.
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Baxx wrote:
The card system could be good, but I don't think it is working properly. Whenever anyone say "choose cards" my head start to ache. There are 158 sub-plots. 396 tactics (+13 underdog tactics). It is a nightmare for new players to have to read through all without knowledge about which ones are good or not. And it is not an easy task for experienced players either. And instead of utilizing the full range of cards, the same top 5 cards are used every battle.



That's my problem with cards as well. In my group we don't use them, but maybe if they were randomly selected before the game starts I could consider proposing to my friends to use them. As they are they're too gamey and boring.

 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN

 Lord Damocles wrote:
The game would still be better for the players who 'just want to have fun' if it was better balanced.

If the game balance is better everyone benefits - in fact the casual players benefit more.


I hear this argument a lot, and what I have found is that it is not true in practice.

Why? Theoretically, better rules help everyone right? No, it only helps the folks who want a competitive experience because the people who do not want that style of play leave, and only the competitive folks stay, and that creates a death spiral for the game locally. Then, it creates a death spiral at a larger level too.

Exhibit A, B, and C: War Machine and Hordes, Guild Ball, and X-wing.

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Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




 Easy E wrote:
No, it only helps the folks who want a competitive experience because the people who do not want that style of play leave, and only the competitive folks stay, and that creates a death spiral for the game locally. Then, it creates a death spiral at a larger level too.

Exhibit A, B, and C: War Machine and Hordes, Guild Ball, and X-wing.


I don't think making more than one special weapon in each gang actually playable would cause the mass exodus you're expecting. I also think people quit those other games for many reasons besides good game balance. Warmahordes killed their press gangers which were a big driver of local communities. Their models themselves are nothing to write home about. I never saw Guild Ball played at any of the stores I frequent in 3 different states. X-Wing has fallen off slightly from its peak but is still very popular
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Easy E wrote:
No, it only helps the folks who want a competitive experience because the people who do not want that style of play leave, and only the competitive folks stay, and that creates a death spiral for the game locally.
What does that even mean?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
No, it only helps the folks who want a competitive experience because the people who do not want that style of play leave, and only the competitive folks stay, and that creates a death spiral for the game locally.
What does that even mean?


I'm wondering the same. "Good balance makes everyone quit the game" is the hottest take I've heard on Dakka and the bar was pretty high...
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I mean X-Wing didn't die because "the rules got better".

X-Wing died because FFG released a second edition out of nowhere, invalidated everyone's carefully gathered card collections, and told everyone "Buy this instead!".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/07 00:06:50


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Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Easy E wrote:
...Exhibit A, B, and C: War Machine and Hordes, Guild Ball, and X-wing...


WMH died because it's a brutally difficult game to learn that was being propped up by the Press Ganger corps, and when they went you couldn't get new people into the game anymore, so when the Mk.3 rollout annoyed the existing playerbase they couldn't keep the game going. Guildball never got started for a long, long list of reasons, including but not limited to the fact that they prioritized releasing new teams over giving anyone any options. All the people I know who played 1e X-Wing still play 2e, and almost universally agree that it's a big improvement, I don't know that it ever "died".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/07 00:17:07


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

I kind of get what Easy E is saying, because a lot of the time it's about the community.

When you get games that are razor-tight, and can be played very competitively because they are balanced, they build a community that wants that kind of thing. So you have had a lot of people moving who have long since given up with 40k etc.. The community then builds up around making lists, tournament results and any perceived imbalance is treated as a heresy and the community goes full-fatwah on the rules writers and company. And that does not make a pleasant nor welcoming community.

Take a look at the GoT: A song of Ice and Fire community as an example. I think perhaps because the game gives such a tight set of rules, and it's very well suited to tournament play, those guys are brutal. Funnily enough Epic Armageddon is a bit like that too (which you wouldn't think - but again a very tight, balanced ruleset) and also Infinity, although I think with both EA and Infinity there are enough community modellers (people that are just in it for the painting, especially with Infinity) that it dilutes the 'OMG they changed stat of X and now my army is ruined' threads.

So if you have a community that has built up around a competitive tournament setting, as some games do, then it's not always welcoming and can put off people trying to get into that game.
That isn't to say though that this should be a reason to not try and make a tight set of rules. But right now I would say very few people are playing Necromunda for its worth as a tournament game or to prove their tactical acumen..

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/12/07 11:43:00


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Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





 NH Gunsmith wrote:

While likely a contentious move, I wouldn't be sad to see all the current Tactics/Underdog/whatever cards dropped and replaced by a SINGLE pack of cards that STAYS in print.

That's what happened with N20+. All gang codex books (7 so far) have their own table of 18 tactics. Even Ogryns got one! The only exception is Hive War which reprinted/modified some older ones.

I don't mind your suggestion at all, were it not for 2 things:
- all the existing cards (alot!) are then garbage
- many of the new tactics of the SINGLE deck are garbage (utterly useless). Like all the ones who say "hey, got those brand new minis painted up and added to your gang? buy another box because you get additionals for free". One criteria I have for tactics is they must not require additional random minis, because not all players have them and if players have them chances are they're included in the crew already, or they didn't bring them for that particular battle when you draw that tactic.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




You can have a balanced game without it being "razor sharp" though.

Obviously as you add more complexity and introduce more combinations, it's going to get progressively harder to have chess-like balance.

But doing stuff like having a bit of a go at having campaign rules that aren't going to result in completely unbalanced gangs is not exactly a high bar to clear.
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN

 Toofast wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
No, it only helps the folks who want a competitive experience because the people who do not want that style of play leave, and only the competitive folks stay, and that creates a death spiral for the game locally.
What does that even mean?


I'm wondering the same. "Good balance makes everyone quit the game" is the hottest take I've heard on Dakka and the bar was pretty high...


It is a bit more nuanced than that. Eventually, if you primary goal is balance for competitive play, eventually all you have left is competitive players. The rest get driven out of the game for a number of reasons.

There are several types of players and buyers besides them. You need to attract a wide number of players/buyers to keep going.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I mean X-Wing didn't die because "the rules got better".

X-Wing died because FFG released a second edition out of nowhere, invalidated everyone's carefully gathered card collections, and told everyone "Buy this instead!".



Why did they create a second edition "out of no where"? What would cause a design team or company that was doing really well to do that?




Despite all this side chatter, I am appalled to learn that the new version of Necro has no Giant-Killer/Underdog mechanics? They were in Oldcromunda and seemed to be a staple of the old Necro/Mord/GM/BB campaign system this was built on. That is a HUGE mis-step. I was under the impression those things were built in!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/17 22:22:32


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Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




The new campaigns have underdog mechanics.
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





That's correct, but it is random and the effect varies.
- Extra tactics (granted by most scenarios, usually determined by crew rating)
- Favours (cycles aren't defined, so who knows how effective this is)
-Agents (randomly receive a discount for low rep gangs)

Anything else? Oh yeah, that patronage article from white dwarf which attempts to introduce something similar to petty cash from blood bowl. But it's impossible to understand exactly how it works, no specific rules about when it triggers other than a 'guideline' of 400 difference in rating and pretty broken in several aspects.

Compare this to a proper campaign from other games, these things would be well defined and part of the core rulebook. Here we get some bonuses with random effect scattered across several books and white dwarf articles. Not all gangs have access to all of these either. Non-house gangs doesn't have agents. Enforcers doesn't have favours. Tactics are dependent of the scenario and patronage only triggers for a difference of 400 rating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vorian wrote:

Obviously as you add more complexity and introduce more combinations, it's going to get progressively harder to have chess-like balance.

Yes, that's correct, I wouldn't expect the balance to be maintained after releasing 19 books because of all the additional content, combinations and complexity. For example I'm fine with Outcast allowing any fighter to be the leader because of the freedom it brings, even if some choices can be unbalanced in any direction. But I'd argue that the game is unbalanced from the core, in particular some key weapons like boltguns and plasmaguns and also van saar starting out with BS2+ and 3+. It is so sever, some people are discussing T2 to balance it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/20 11:14:04


 
   
Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

It's quite interesting how the new GW releases are handled by the Necromunda community. It almost makes me think of like declarations coming from the heavens; there is a lightning bolt, a loud echoing voice "THOU SHALT INTRODUCE KHORNE WARBANDS AND A BB PETTY CASH TYPE SYSTEM IN AN AMBIGUOUS & CONFUSING WAY, HERE IS AN AMBULL AND A SQUAT", then a lightning bolt and some new minis, then the community just starts scurrying around, running in circles trying to make sense of it all, what is it the Gods actually mean, and translate it into something that is actually playable and balanced.

10 years after the last GW rules or miniature release, there will be a 'schism' in the Necromunda community with two NCEs, offering very different ways to play, one will ban certain plasma weapons and max toughness Goliaths. The losers will be exiled or burnt on the stake (have to make their own forum community or be banned!) with any mention of the forbidden ruleset forbidden. There will be a generally hopeful consensus that the Gods will stay away for a while, for the sake of law and order

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/20 14:46:22


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