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Someone has to say this so it may as well be me.

1st edition AD&D (and D&D before it) was not a fun game, at least not before you hit like 5th level and could stop worrying about giant rats. 2nd edition was better but still not great. For games of that era (deep breath) Palladium Fantasy was far better. Things like a combat system that included dodges and parrys, and a skill system that let players add hit points through training were true improvements.

leopard wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

CvT wrote:That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of British plumbing.

It’s worse than our teeth.

^^^^ this

Britain did all it's plumbing like 150 years ago, then stopped bothering after that

you simply cannot improve upon perfection

It does seem like it's really a project to breed Gelatinous Cubes, and actual waste disposal is just a convenient side effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatberg#Notable_fatbergs (good to see my new home getting a few honourable mentions lol)

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:


In the 1980s, there was a game called "Tomorrow the World" and it was the final showdown between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan for world hegemony.

With nuclear weapons.

The cover art alone would probably cause kids today to wet their pants.

I so wanted to play that.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To be fair, I do live in an Edwardian building, so the root plumbing probably is knocking on for about that old!

New Builds are crap. Paper thin walls. Tiny rooms. Too many units in too little space. Pah!

Gimme my old buildings. Made proper. Like they used to be.

Are you prepared to pay the craftsman and controll the site and their work? Also considering competition law you may well also get not decent craftsman but outsourced "Manpower"* due to law.

Because that is what you will have to do, atleast from experience from my brief stints in construction, ironicaly in plumbing and heating sector....

* For the sake of not swearing in quotationmarks.

 Tamereth wrote:
Darn Kids and all this constant change and new releases.

I have a job, and kids and an annoying spouse that wants to spend time with me. The once every other month I get to meet up with friends and play a game I want to play something that we know how to play, not have to read all the new rules added to a game since we last meet up. I want something that will still be the same in 20 years time when I fancy playing it again.

And whats this starship battles nonsense, star trek starship tactical combat simulator played with micro machines is the only space game that will ever bring you joy.

Also bring back ratskins, and spyers and scavvies and all original lore from necromunda. To hell if it offends people nowadays.

Ah... Star Fleet Battles predates FASA's Starship Tactical Combat Simulator by a good decade. You've been out-grognarded!

I had that game too. The rules are a lot slimmer, and gameplay is noticeably faster than Star Fleet Battles, but a fair amount of the basic mechanics are very close, if not identical. It wouldn't take long for you to learn Star Fleet Battles if you're comfortable with the STCS.

But SFB allows for things that STCS does not. I had great fun with my Klingon battlecruiser, taking out all the surviving control spaces with hit-and-run raids on my opponent's ships after the first battle pass and leaving their ship uncontrolled.

Until they started posting guards, anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Someone has to say this so it may as well be me.

1st edition AD&D (and D&D before it) was not a fun game, at least not before you hit like 5th level and could stop worrying about giant rats. 2nd edition was better but still not great. For games of that era (deep breath) Palladium Fantasy was far better. Things like a combat system that included dodges and parrys, and a skill system that let players add hit points through training were true improvements.

Was that the system where, no matter how experienced and/or how agile your character was, unless they actually burned an action to dodge they got hit 75% of the time?

IIRC in Paladium a 6+ on D20 hit, but that number went up if you had armor (ie leather armor might raise it to 10+, plate mail 16+).

In addition you could parry (free action if you had a parrying item in your hand) or dodge (using an action) and had to out roll your attacker.

Compare to D&D where you had no defensive actions, you just took the hit.

Combat had options! And choices! And there was a skill system! And 1st level wizards could cast more than one spell!

I'm not saying it would be my first pick today, but it was loads better than D&D.

Star Fleet Battles.. *goes misty-eyed* a game where you could fly a D7C, and find an opponent who got used to hit & run raids so started posting guards

so then you launch an attempt to capture him, with all his marines on guard duty and just flat out take the ship from under his nose

ahh so many great days

[shakes fist at cloud passing overhead]

Covering a model in unnecessary detail and faction bling does not make a superior 'design' or aesthetic! There is a beauty in simplicity, and more crap stuck to or etched into it does not make a model somehow 'better' than a serviceable representation of a basic soldier/trooper/whatever, and it certainly doesn't justify 'luxury' pricing!

And posing a model leaping off the rock or enemy helmet that just happens to be everywhere he goes might be more 'dynamic', but that's not automatically 'good'! Some times it's 'ridiculous'!

[stops shaking fist, but keeps an eye on that cloud...it better just move on out of here, if it knows what's good for it]

I remember the days when a "Space Marine" was a normal human with better training and equipment and a few bionics...

 Psychopomp wrote:
[shakes fist at cloud passing overhead]

Covering a model in unnecessary detail and faction bling does not make a superior 'design' or aesthetic! There is a beauty in simplicity, and more crap stuck to or etched into it does not make a model somehow 'better' than a serviceable representation of a basic soldier/trooper/whatever, and it certainly doesn't justify 'luxury' pricing!

And posing a model leaping off the rock or enemy helmet that just happens to be everywhere he goes might be more 'dynamic', but that's not automatically 'good'! Some times it's 'ridiculous'!

[stops shaking fist, but keeps an eye on that cloud...it better just move on out of here, if it knows what's good for it]

[shakes fist at possibly, but almost certainly not the same cloud]

The other side of that coin, without being contrarian to your good senior self?

Stupid Rackham fans and their obsession with the “filigree” which only ever proved to be really really good painting! Models bald as a baby’s bum in terms of fine detail. Grrrrrrr!

[being Britain, cloud literally rains on my parade]

I remember when the things that people remembered were better things. Reminiscences were better in those days, before people started remembering things that aren't worth remembering.

 amazingturtles wrote:
I remember when the things that people remembered were better things. Reminiscences were better in those days, before people started remembering things that aren't worth remembering.

Not as good as I remember them being, you whippersnapper guttersnipe you!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 amazingturtles wrote:
I remember when the things that people remembered were better things. Reminiscences were better in those days, before people started remembering things that aren't worth remembering.

Not as good as I remember them being, you whippersnapper guttersnipe you!

That's true. I'd forgotten to have going to be remembering that, back in the day.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Someone has to say this so it may as well be me.

1st edition AD&D (and D&D before it) was not a fun game, at least not before you hit like 5th level and could stop worrying about giant rats. 2nd edition was better but still not great. For games of that era (deep breath) Palladium Fantasy was far better. Things like a combat system that included dodges and parrys, and a skill system that let players add hit points through training were true improvements.

Look at the guy pushing this new-fangled "advanced" D&D! The first D&D was clearly the best. Do you really need more than three alignments - the Good, the Bad, and the Wishy-washy? No!

Spare me your chaotic neutral good with evil tendencies and your fighter/cleric/monk/illusionist/barbarian.

There are four archetypes and three demihumans. That's all you freaking need.

And yes, I went "retro" in the late 80s with some of my friends and we had a blast. Much less complexity made for better storytelling.

I also did a revival just a few years back and once again, we found it perfectly adequate - you don't need a rule for every stinking thing in the game like "speed factors" and such.

Last time I checked, the current D&D is closer to that than any other previous edition.

Also, one of my favorite dungeons was Drums on Fire Mountain, produced by TSR UK, aka Games Workshop. Tom Kirby was credited with the design and the credits are a virtual who's who of the early company.

 amazingturtles wrote:
I remember when the things that people remembered were better things. Reminiscences were better in those days, before people started remembering things that aren't worth remembering.

even nostalgia isn't what it once was

leopard wrote:

 amazingturtles wrote:
I remember when the things that people remembered were better things. Reminiscences were better in those days, before people started remembering things that aren't worth remembering.

even nostalgia isn't what it once was

Disagree. Prior to the 80s, game design was pretty grim. RPGs didn't exist. Wargames were things like Avalon Hill's Gettysburg, which is ugly and has a bunch of headquarters counters that serve no discernable purpose.

But then came a new age, a Golden Age, with game companies popping up all over the place. I kind of felt bad for the older dudes who had to get by with games like Tactics II when they were young and were forced to rub elbows with a bunch of pimply teenagers to play Panzer Leader or Modern Naval Battles. At least they had finally found opponents!

Plus, we had the Cold War. So much post-apocalyptic stuff out there, from Third World War (SPI) to Third World War (GDW) to World War Three (also SPI, but earlier). Twilight: 2000, with nukes flying everywhere and Cyberpunk, which you know wasn't that far off. Blade Runner, set in the distant future of 2019 with FLYING CARS.

So much goodness. I got to grow up with Star Wars; kids 10 years older than me had to make do with Logan's Run, Planet of the Apes and Space: 1999. Their nostalgia sucked.

On Magic: The Gathering

You damn kids have it so easy these days! You don't know how to manage your mana, and you don't have to learn! Back when Magic was launched, we had to manage our mana carefully, cause there was "Mana Burn". Since you spoiled whippersnappers haven't a clue what that mean, I'll explain it. If you had leftover mana in your pool when you ended your turn, you took damage equal to the unspent mana in the pool. Nowadays you kids leave 20, 30, even a hundred points of mana in your pool out of sheer carelessness! Spoiled rotten, the lot of you!

And the creatures you can Summon these days! For a mere two colored mana you get a 4/4 Flying, First Strike, Trampler! Back in my day, two colored mana would only get you a 2/2 creature with no powers! For single power like First Strike for that cost, you'd have to permanently discard the top five cards of your deck! That's "Exile" to you young snots!

And we didn't have no fancy-schmacy keywords to simplify the rules either. Had to read three or more paragraphs of text in six point type and REMEMBER that it meant "permanently discard" or what have you! Now you have all these clever mnemonic keywords baked into the rules, and you kids don't even have to think! Now wonder the world's going to hell in a handbasket!

Serious: Stopped playing in 1996 or '97, but pre-COVID I helped a friend open some boosters. By my standards there was serious power creep. There were not any 4/4 Flying, First Strike, Tramplers that I saw, but the creatures were an order of magnitude better than when I was playing. That also applied to the other cards, like Sorceries and Enchantments. One card could do things you used to need at least a two card combo for, or even three!

 JNAProductions wrote:
*cough cough Black Lotus Ancestral Recall Time Walk cough*

Yes, but those were Rares. These new cards are Commons and Uncommons. Although I suppose if everyone at the table is playing the current cards, then even if the power level is high by late '90s standards, it doesn't matter. But unless one has "Power 9" and is playing a Time Recursion deck, then there's no point in trying to play with the older cards. {Yes, there are some exceptions even outside of Power 9, but not many.}

*cough cough Black Lotus Ancestral Recall Time Walk cough*

I was in magic from the start. Ok, not quite the beginning, but pulling beta cards out of sealed packs, and ending up with a chunk of alphas from those slightly older then I. Sold most of my collection in ‘99 to help with the down payment on a house. Kept my alpha/betas.

Fast forward to still a while ago; almost exactly 10 years. Decided to break out the old cards for a few games at the FLGS. Was amazed at the power creep. Even with some old the old power cards from the old days, hard to keep up. Decided to just tap out and sell, which provided the funds to start blogging here.

Manaburn was a factor in my main red deck. Mana flares and gauntlets of might. My deck was built to handle the flow, but many others were not. Good times.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
IIRC in Paladium a 6+ on D20 hit, but that number went up if you had armor (ie leather armor might raise it to 10+, plate mail 16+).

In addition you could parry (free action if you had a parrying item in your hand) or dodge (using an action) and had to out roll your attacker.

Compare to D&D where you had no defensive actions, you just took the hit.

Combat had options! And choices! And there was a skill system! And 1st level wizards could cast more than one spell!

I'm not saying it would be my first pick today, but it was loads better than D&D.

At least in D&D, you needed to roll a 14 or better to hit my 18 dex character while you only need a 8 to hit the dex 6 klutz. In palladium you hit both on a 5+ unless they're spending attack actions dodging... which means I'm not getting to attack and ultimately I'm going to lose. I've never seen a fight, in real life, sparring, or movies, where someone just stands there waiting to get hit.

It doesn't work for me.

I'll play.

All of Newcromunda rules can throw themselves in a river until they get sorted out. I refuse to buy 8 books to reactivate my Necromunda figures. GW almost lured me back with that game but as soon as I realized the GW Book Machine was in full operation I got out.

Original Necromunda needed 1 or two books for rules and it's still a great game.

In fact, the entire GW book-buying carousel can burn. Grimdark Future has my heart and it'd be awful hard for them to get me back.

And another thing! Well actually that's it...

As someone getting close to Grognard age, the rest of the Wargaming world is pretty fantastic. I feel like I'm drowning in great affordable minis, wonderful affordable and fast playing rules sets and friendly gamers.

I can't even summon up the energy to be annoyed with all the premium games with minis I'd love but prices and rules I can't stomach. There's just too much other stuff I enjoy.

Those damn kids today don't know how it feels to wait almost 30 years (and counting) for new Warp Spiders sculpts. Or 25 for updated Falcon. Those are not simply older than a lot of the playerbase, they are TWICE as old as I was, when I first got them!

Now about terrain - I have about a cubic meter of styrofoam packaging (from a huge ass freezer and a washing machine), waiting to be converted to an awesome fortress table. But I will be printing details for it - I simply can't unsee everyday objects turned terrain.

 Vulcan wrote:
At least in D&D, you needed to roll a 14 or better to hit my 18 dex character while you only need a 8 to hit the dex 6 klutz. In palladium you hit both on a 5+ unless they're spending attack actions dodging... which means I'm not getting to attack and ultimately I'm going to lose. I've never seen a fight, in real life, sparring, or movies, where someone just stands there waiting to get hit.

It doesn't work for me.

YES! Let's argue the merit of game systems that are 30 years out of print!

Ready...fight!

I said "fight!"

Okay, I know you're both using walkers, but could we speed this up?

No, he's over there. OVER THERE!

Oh, never mind.

I remember the Palladium arms and armor books, because tons of my friends bought them to look at the cool pictures. None of them bothered to use the system because D&D was what everyone knew.

I will rise to defend D&D to note that defense was automatic - you didn't have to say "I'm defending myself" because it was assumed that you were (that's what the Dex and shield bonus was for).

Decades of gaming experience later, I think it still holds up well for what it was meant to do: provides a framework for a storytelling game of adventure. The old 1981 rules were easy to understand, quick to teach, the limited number of classes still allowed for lots of flexibility. Later editions that required dozens of books that had to be carted around were a bit much.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
At least in D&D, you needed to roll a 14 or better to hit my 18 dex character while you only need a 8 to hit the dex 6 klutz. In palladium you hit both on a 5+ unless they're spending attack actions dodging... which means I'm not getting to attack and ultimately I'm going to lose. I've never seen a fight, in real life, sparring, or movies, where someone just stands there waiting to get hit.

It doesn't work for me.

YES! Let's argue the merit of game systems that are 30 years out of print!

Ready...fight!

I said "fight!"

Okay, I know you're both using walkers, but could we speed this up?

No, he's over there. OVER THERE!

Oh, never mind.

Don't make me beat you with my cane, you disrespectful whippersnapper!

Kids today will never know the joy of ditching D&D for an actually-good RPG, WEG Star Wars.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
At least in D&D, you needed to roll a 14 or better to hit my 18 dex character while you only need a 8 to hit the dex 6 klutz. In palladium you hit both on a 5+ unless they're spending attack actions dodging... which means I'm not getting to attack and ultimately I'm going to lose. I've never seen a fight, in real life, sparring, or movies, where someone just stands there waiting to get hit.

It doesn't work for me.

YES! Let's argue the merit of game systems that are 30 years out of print!

Ready...fight!

I said "fight!"

Okay, I know you're both using walkers, but could we speed this up?

No, he's over there. OVER THERE!

Oh, never mind.

I remember the Palladium arms and armor books, because tons of my friends bought them to look at the cool pictures. None of them bothered to use the system because D&D was what everyone knew.

I will rise to defend D&D to note that defense was automatic - you didn't have to say "I'm defending myself" because it was assumed that you were (that's what the Dex and shield bonus was for).

Decades of gaming experience later, I think it still holds up well for what it was meant to do: provides a framework for a storytelling game of adventure. The old 1981 rules were easy to understand, quick to teach, the limited number of classes still allowed for lots of flexibility. Later editions that required dozens of books that had to be carted around were a bit much.

I remember Palladium mostly because I have artist friends who are still waiting to be paid for artwork that Kev commissioned and then reneged on the deal.

nou wrote:
Those damn kids today don't know how it feels to wait almost 30 years (and counting) for new Warp Spiders sculpts. Or 25 for updated Falcon. Those are not simply older than a lot of the playerbase, they are TWICE as old as I was, when I first got them!

Now about terrain - I have about a cubic meter of styrofoam packaging (from a huge ass freezer and a washing machine), waiting to be converted to an awesome fortress table. But I will be printing details for it - I simply can't unsee everyday objects turned terrain.

I still remember the excitement of seeing Warp Spiders when they first released. I can’t be entirely sure, but I think they may have been the first New Addition Unit I ever personally experienced in 40K.

Certainly I can tell you the White Dwarf they were in was a copy held by my school’s Library (a friends mum was the librarian, and she pretty much let us subscribe to whatever!)

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Kids today will never know the joy of ditching D&D for an actually-good RPG, WEG Star Wars.

Exalted!

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Kids today will never know the joy of ditching D&D for an actually-good RPG, WEG Star Wars.

Now that was a legit good system!

I still have the WEG d6 Fantasy sitting on my shelf waiting for me to read it.

Played Star Wars, found the background was better played with other systems, but the Star Wars system made for an excellent "Paranoia in Space" though