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 Da Boss wrote:
Interesting insights. Would I be right in assuming as well that X Wing drew in a lot of non-hardcore wargamers? The likes of us are used to edition changes and having to rejig things, buy new rules and so on. But if you're a star wars fan who is new to wargaming, it might have been a real shock to find out all your cards were now obsolete and you had to buy new ones. Maybe FFG misjudged the tolerance for the casual wargamer toward that stuff?

The big issue with the 2.0 upgrade was how 1.0 worked. In 1.0 you had to buy multiples of EVERYTHING for every faction. Even if you didn't play Empire, the new Empire ship came with 1 copy of a card you needed 3 of to keep the A-Wing playable. The 2.0 upgrade boxes were perfectly reasonable.... for a faction, but everyone had 5 factions (2 of which hadn't been separate factions up to that point). It wasn't the cost of the individual upgrades that people rejected; it was the cost of upgrading their collection all at once that let people take stock of just how much the edition change really cost. If I recall, the new core set contents weren't even in the upgrade, so on top of that you needed to rebuy the most common ships in the game to retain the ability to play Luke.

 BertBert wrote:
Sad to hear that X-Wing is dead, but it will absolutely remain an evergreen as far as I'm concerned.

In my experience, X-Wing plays closer to a board game than a wargame. I've had several occasions where a friend was visiting and we managed to play a couple of games without any prior knowledge on their part, which would never have been possible with other games like TOW or Infinity.

Is there an available set of products one could pick up now that would deliver that experience? So 3-4 mostly balanced lists that are fun to play against each other?

The core sets had the rulebook and rulers, so FFG expected everyone to buy it anyway, preferred faction or not.
They did make it downloadable though and kept the glossary updated.

deano2099 wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
Sad to hear that X-Wing is dead, but it will absolutely remain an evergreen as far as I'm concerned.

In my experience, X-Wing plays closer to a board game than a wargame. I've had several occasions where a friend was visiting and we managed to play a couple of games without any prior knowledge on their part, which would never have been possible with other games like TOW or Infinity.

Is there an available set of products one could pick up now that would deliver that experience? So 3-4 mostly balanced lists that are fun to play against each other?

Not sure what is currently available, but all I got was the 2nd edition starter and a couple of additional ships for each side. I believe I bought a Y-Wing and a B-Wing to expand on the rebels and Vader's Tie for the imperials.

Don't think the cards were ever reasonable in X-Wing.

I brought my ships and a folder with some print out of the rules to an X-Wing tourment, and everyone demanded I have these silly little cards. And not even just once, but repeat cards with identical text for repeat equipment?

That is just dumb? What's the point.

People hate on Games workshop and such for fleecing people with Codexes, but not even there would I have to present two copies of a Dark Angels Codex just because I ran two Dark Angels planes with two identical upgrades or some such (assuming you even "need" the original rules to be present in hard copy).

The_Real_Chris wrote:
So the big question? Will the models get cheaper from people dumping stuff? Or more expensive as people try to complete collections? Personally when I saw the box of FFG card needed to play I soured on it. But I always loved the little ships as display pieces or toys. So would love to get some more!

I was all set to swallow my cardboard and character card dislike for armada, but then the ships weren't in scale with each other and many ships were ridiculously up gunned or down gunned in order to allow the rebels and empire to play large fleet engagements with each other.

Sold all off my small collection Xwing1.0 2xstarters a millennium and other ships for a fraction of the price about a year or so ago. Not sure if the prices will pick up or devaluate in the future.

deano2099 wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
Sad to hear that X-Wing is dead, but it will absolutely remain an evergreen as far as I'm concerned.

In my experience, X-Wing plays closer to a board game than a wargame. I've had several occasions where a friend was visiting and we managed to play a couple of games without any prior knowledge on their part, which would never have been possible with other games like TOW or Infinity.

Is there an available set of products one could pick up now that would deliver that experience? So 3-4 mostly balanced lists that are fun to play against each other?

The squadron packs and starter sets for Rebels and Imperials should be good for that, maybe add in an extra ship or two for theme (like the Falcon).

Sunny Side Up wrote:Don't think the cards were ever reasonable in X-Wing.

I brought my ships and a folder with some print out of the rules to an X-Wing tourment, and everyone demanded I have these silly little cards. And not even just once, but repeat cards with identical text for repeat equipment?

That is just dumb? What's the point.

People hate on Games workshop and such for fleecing people with Codexes, but not even there would I have to present two copies of a Dark Angels Codex just because I ran two Dark Angels planes with two identical upgrades or some such (assuming you even "need" the original rules to be present in hard copy).

Needing one copy of the official card is pretty standard for an official event, though I would be surprised if anyone enforced it. Needing multiple copies of identical cards though is bizarre and not covered by the rules either. No event I have ever attended or heard of required that.

Isn't that like 2nd edition. 40k? The wargear cards? How are upgrades for ships different? If I'm running 3 ships, with 3 upgrades, I'd supply the card or it doesn't have the upgrade.

Second edition 40k was a long time ago though. It certainly isn't a standard out there in war games at large. Though hopefully no one tells GW about it. Just think, want to run 3 units of something, better go buy 3 packs of dataset cards then...

 alarmingrick wrote:
Isn't that like 2nd edition. 40k? The wargear cards? How are upgrades for ships different? If I'm running 3 ships, with 3 upgrades, I'd supply the card or it doesn't have the upgrade.

Difference is some useful cards were locked to useless ships. Or worse, ships for a faction you don’t play.

As noted, not actually a big problem in friendly/club/casual play, where provided someone had a copy of the card, or a photo, you’re up and running. But as others have said, organised events insisted on having the physical card.

This could lead to stuff such as “I want to field a Y-Wing, so I have bought a Y-Wing. However, my strategy requires an Astromech only available in the E-Wing, and Torpedoes only available in the TIE Bomber. So when the game was billed as £12 a ship, why have I paid £36 to field a ship”.

Now I understand and take it in authority 2nd Ed dealt with this somewhat. Certainly no having to buy an Imperial ship to arm a Rebel ship. But Hunt The Card To Chase The Meta wasn’t ideal.

There's a reason 40k is in the rear view mirror.

What caused me to check out of X-Wing was having to buy an Epic Ship, something I might use on relatively rare occasion, to get the cards to stop Vader’s TIE Advanced being crap.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What caused me to check out of X-Wing was having to buy an Epic Ship, something I might use on relatively rare occasion, to get the cards to stop Vader’s TIE Advanced being crap.

The predatory sales model was certainly a turnoff, I was lucky enough that a completionist friend just bought 1 of everything.

GW tried to pull that gak with Underworlds but I think mostly quit after season 1.

Forgive my ignorance, but I've been away from gaming for a bit. Ironically decided to pick x-wing back up and boom goes the game, lol.

The example given, do you have to have that card to use the ship in your example? Did they issue it and say to make this work you now have to buy this expansion pack too? Or are these combos people have figured out and need the card to work? If the latter, I'd say it's the price you pay to come up with the trick. I'd have 0 problem with proxies, personally.

 alarmingrick wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but I've been away from gaming for a bit. Ironically decided to pick x-wing back up and boom goes the game, lol.

The example given, do you have to have that card to use the ship in your example? Did they issue it and say to make this work you now have to buy this expansion pack too? Or are these combos people have figured out and need the card to work? If the latter, I'd say it's the price you pay to come up with the trick. I'd have 0 problem with proxies, personally.

They were combos people figured out to make the ships perform at their peak and in some cases, to make the ships not just points you freely gave to your opponents,

 alarmingrick wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but I've been away from gaming for a bit. Ironically decided to pick x-wing back up and boom goes the game, lol.

The example given, do you have to have that card to use the ship in your example? Did they issue it and say to make this work you now have to buy this expansion pack too? Or are these combos people have figured out and need the card to work? If the latter, I'd say it's the price you pay to come up with the trick. I'd have 0 problem with proxies, personally.

For official tournaments (which were very very popular), you were required to have an official copy of the card for each ship with the upgrade.

Notably, there wasn't really "errata" for the game. (There was some, but very limited). The goal was to fix things with upgrades. You would literally get packs that provide a card that's just a massive buff to a ship that was underperforming.

It was a requirement for many ships to work in v1 (it didn't happen in v2), the most notorious being the autothrusters expansion that comes with a free Starviper! Most ace style ships (like the TIE interceptor) needed autothrusters to be useable and if your list included 6 of them then some people needed to get 3 starviper packs...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What caused me to check out of X-Wing was having to buy an Epic Ship, something I might use on relatively rare occasion, to get the cards to stop Vader’s TIE Advanced being crap.

I will say, my favorite experience overall is Epic with both sides including a huge ship. It's not an experience FFG designed well and you have to put in a disappointing amount of effort to make it fun, but it can really hit a sweet spot between X-Wing and Armada that captures what the feel of space battles for me better than either. The way FFG undercooked the mode on release and badded it out with mandatory standard play upgrades absolutely sucked, but its really fun when it actually works.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What caused me to check out of X-Wing was having to buy an Epic Ship, something I might use on relatively rare occasion, to get the cards to stop Vader’s TIE Advanced being crap.

The predatory sales model was certainly a turnoff, I was lucky enough that a completionist friend just bought 1 of everything.

GW tried to pull that gak with Underworlds but I think mostly quit after season 1.

At the very least, Underworlds left you with a complete Warband for every purchase. Hunt the Card is still sucky, on account there are TCG’s out there if I want to play one.

Honestly surprised they played pretend about this for so long after the handover.

im wondering, maybe its possible that we might get a new fighter game or larger scale game that includes plastic to build ships. something akin to Dropzone

Strange how so many games half-way between boardgame and wargame meet similar fates.

Accessibility is something wonderful our hobby needs, but whether it is X-wing 1.0's gross card-buying side game, or say Heroclix's disgusting predator blind-boosters, these games frequently scare those new players off by succumbing to corporate greed.

On the ease of getting into the game discussion: the ships also hit the right price point, at least here in the US. For $20 I could pick up a new small ship, with potentially new cards that might change how I play my existing stuff. That's the right amount that I'd be willing to drop the money when I'm in the FLGS looking for other stuff, or if I'm at a tourney and want to grab something on the way out etc.

As far as the limits of a SW game and IP - I think with the right hands on the wheel 2.0 could've been soft landed into a more stable tournament scene, with a cycling of ships, scenarios and the occasional new ships from shows. It wouldn't have been as lucrative, but it probably could've been sustainable.

Most likely....
Expense of renewing IP for those 2 games vs how much profit they bring in.
Decision made.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Most likely....
Expense of renewing IP for those 2 games vs how much profit they bring in.
Decision made.

Correct. And the answer to "why now" is simply "because the contract wasn't up for renewal when FFG got reorg'd".

AMG being up for sale and being lumbered with 900m usd debt you mean? The licence was renewed last year.

Actually thinking about it; I doubt X-Wing and Armada have unique licenses, but there's almost certainly contracts with the manufacturer that are likely expiring.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Strange how so many games half-way between boardgame and wargame meet similar fates.

Accessibility is something wonderful our hobby needs, but whether it is X-wing 1.0's gross card-buying side game, or say Heroclix's disgusting predator blind-boosters, these games frequently scare those new players off by succumbing to corporate greed.

I think it's a lot of factors.

IP is expensive
IP is finite, so you eventually run out of material (and run out of topline material even faster)
Preassemblled minis can be pricey, prepainted are even more so
Labor and shippiing from China have gotten way more expensive since COVID

I'm wondering if AMG was looking at one or both of these games and wondering if they wanted to pay for another production run or pull the plug. My guess is that given the increased cost of production and with no marquee ships left to release, they didn't have the passion to keep it going.

Most of the time its creatives working within the limitations of the business they're a part of. Blind boxes are mostly a way to provide a limited SKU to make a product viable for large retail chains to get enough volume to make prepainted plastic viable. X-Wings cards were a response for people's demands for rebalancing in an era when digital solutions weren't seen as viable.

Of course, how these systems are used matters quite a bit and we've certainly seen greed push things too far. Increasing chase rarity that's intentionally imbalanced or putting patch cards in risky high priced huge ships for an otherwise niche mode and the like. Noble intentions, but bad outcomes.

X-Wing 2.0 always felt like the nobelist of intestions to me, but it paid for all the greed of 1.0.

It increased in popularity to be the second most sold wargame behind 40k...