Applicability/limitations of deploying Space Marines

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**RaptorusRex**

I would like to direct everyone to Apologist's two-part article on Marine age.

**Haighus**

RaptorusRex wrote:
I would like to direct everyone to Apologist's two-part article on Marine age.

Good numbers overall, but I think the scout numbers are a bit off, including the casualty rates. I don't think neophytes are put into the scout company after a single implant, and I suspect there are a lot of neophytes keepinging the scout company topped off, which probably has fairly high casualty rates due to relative inexperience, worse armour, and the recklessness of youth trying to prove itself.

**Insectum7**

^I too think the casualy rates are off, particularly because Space Marines are often deployed against near-peer adversaries in take-no-prisoners conflicts. But overall it's a pretty good read.

**Haighus**

Insectum7 wrote:
^I too think the casualy rates are off, particularly because Space Marines are often deployed against near-peer adversaries in take-no-prisoners conflicts. But overall it's a pretty good read.

That may not have been the norm prior to the tail end of the 41st millennium, because near-peer adversaries were probably pretty rare. A typical Marine action seems to have been wiping out some pirates or human rebels or striking at Ork holdings to keep the numbers down and prevent a Waaagh! forming.

Get to about 750.M41 onwards and Necrons and Tyranids start coming out of the woodwork whilst Chaos ramps up in power and aggressiveness. Major Ork Waaaghs increase in number with the emergence of Ghazghkull. The Eldar become more active to contain the threats to them. The Tau appear as a major regional threat.

Go back a thousand years and things were much quieter. I think it is very likely a lot of Marines had sustainable casualty rates until all the compounding crises of the 41st millennium start kicking in and chapters start taking huge casualties or getting wiped out regularly.

Tl;dr: the casualty rates are probably pretty reasonable, on the whole, for most chapters prior to the tail end of the 41st millennium, but then gak hits the fan.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

With Marines, you also have to acknowledge that whilst it’s still a difficult job to take them out of a battle? It’s really difficult to properly kill one. Mostly because they don’t suffer shock the way baseline humans do, and even deep gashes are soon staunched, preventing bleeding out.

He’s also incorrect about the size of the Scout Company, which can be as large as the Chapter needs to sustain itself. If that means 200 or 300? It means 200 or 300.

Now, if you’re boosting that much further I’m sure there’d be raised eyebrows at best about just why you need that many in the process of becoming full Marines.

**JNAProductions**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
With Marines, you also have to acknowledge that whilst it’s still a difficult job to take them out of a battle? It’s really difficult to properly kill one. Mostly because they don’t suffer shock the way baseline humans do, and even deep gashes are soon staunched, preventing bleeding out.

He’s also incorrect about the size of the Scout Company, which can be as large as the Chapter needs to sustain itself. If that means 200 or 300? It means 200 or 300.

Now, if you’re boosting that much further I’m sure there’d be raised eyebrows at best about just why you need that many in the process of becoming full Marines.

If the battle is won, then Marines casualties are much less likely to be dead Marines than simply injured ones.

If the battle is lost... I can't think of foes they'd be fighting who'd leave the injured Marines alive.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Not sure what you’re basing that on?

In a truly disastrous battle? Sure, you’re gonna see Brothers left behind, or everyone wiped out.

But in the general run of things, you’re assuming anyone not capable of fighting is completely messed up, and is incapable of a retreat, being bundled back into transport etc.

Power Armour has limited medical facilities too, to keep them alive even when horrifically wounded, at least in the short term and an Apothecary can get to them.

**Haighus**

Well, if an enemy can defeat the Marines, they probably haven't given much opportunity for an orderly retreat and recovering casualties may be hard as they are powerful enough to defeat Marines. Certainly any army (not just Marines) losing a battle will have a harder time extracting casualties and damaged vehicles.

**Tyran**

Their few numbers, heavy weight and preference for close combat makes extraction if things go FUBAR unlikely.

They are high risk, high reward troops, and while that means their successes are kinda ridiculous, their loses tend to be catastrophic.

**Piousservant**

Slightly different tangent, but I immediately thought of this page from the 3rd ed codex - IMO a great little bit of fluff that highlights some of the issues for the Imperium on how/where marines are deployed and also (I think) tries to suggest how they can successfully take a whole planet with a relatively small number of marines...

**usmcmidn**

Piousservant wrote:

Slightly different tangent, but I immediately thought of this page from the 3rd ed codex - IMO a great little bit of fluff that highlights some of the issues for the Imperium on how/where marines are deployed and also (I think) tries to suggest how they can successfully take a whole planet with a relatively small number of marines...

I have always hated the specific lore that 10-20 dudes can take over a planet. Always propped it up as Imperial propaganda.

**Insectum7**

usmcmidn wrote:
Piousservant wrote:

Slightly different tangent, but I immediately thought of this page from the 3rd ed codex - IMO a great little bit of fluff that highlights some of the issues for the Imperium on how/where marines are deployed and also (I think) tries to suggest how they can successfully take a whole planet with a relatively small number of marines...

I have always hated the specific lore that 10-20 dudes can take over a planet. Always propped it up as Imperial propaganda.

It is preposterous, but that's not the scenario described.

It's a small amount of guys, but they show up in a spaceship with bombardment capability and a willingness to ignore collateral damage. That's a hell of a lot of leverage. In the described scenario they took the orbital platforms instead, and then just started leveling ****.

Orbital power gives air-power, because you can just bomb every enemy airport/airframe from space. Air power gives you the ability to only strike when and where you want, still backed by any air and orbital assets. And if the opposition tries to gather any mass of force anywhere, you just drop melta torpedoes or whatever on them.

The Marines themselves are just doing small, critical actions here and there. The real power comes from the spaceship and any assets that can be taken along the way.

**Piousservant**

usmcmidn wrote:
Piousservant wrote:

Slightly different tangent, but I immediately thought of this page from the 3rd ed codex - IMO a great little bit of fluff that highlights some of the issues for the Imperium on how/where marines are deployed and also (I think) tries to suggest how they can successfully take a whole planet with a relatively small number of marines...

I have always hated the specific lore that 10-20 dudes can take over a planet. Always propped it up as Imperial propaganda.

Insectum7 did a great job of setting it out, but just wanted to add that I think you're missing the wood through the trees in a way - the whole point is they aren't taking over the planet. They're turning up, using their orbital and aerial superiority to piecemeal wipe out the planetary security forces/people they think are heretics and when thats done, then they just leave. Taking over is somebody else's problem...! And they aren't just dudes, they're Astartes...

Personally I like it because I think it emphasises the ways in which marines are brutally good at the things they do - but those things are particularly narrow in application. I like the idea that they just don't care about the - what next - question, they've done their bit of righteous killing and move on. To put it another way, I don't think the timing quite works for the writers to have intended it, but you could draw parallels with the invasion of Iraq in 2003 in a way - an incredibly well planned and executed combined arms operation but with very little serious consideration given to what happens the day after the enemy are defeated. Unlike the US military of course the space marines have the "advantage" of literally just flying off and leaving somebody else to worry about what happens next. Definitely not ideal from any kind of wider strategic, or moral, perspective nevetheless...

Also today it also makes for an interesting comparison with the Great Crusade period, in terms of bringing worlds into compliance and all those follow on steps that seem to have diminished in importance, at least for the marines, by the 41st millennium. Maybe an unintended consequence of the break up of Imperial forces following the Codex Astartes?

**Hellebore**

So there's an issue of detail that people miss that means they use this as justification for other things.

sure, in this one specific highly particular scenario where the marines have orbital superiority and no enemy ships to combat or ground laser destroyer silos and are basically terrorising a 21st century level planet, they can claim victory.

But that scenario is also pretty beneath them as a strategic usage. There aren't enough marines for them to be used in such a pointless way.

ANY faction in the same scenario with a capital ship in orbit and no defensive weaponry or ships is going to do pretty much the same thing. And using the navy to bring this planet back into compliance would have been cheaper and more strategically sound than wasting your elite strike ops teams on subduing a 3rd world planet.

But no one positions the arguement from the perspective of the enemy the marines were fighting, it's always 'marines are so hardcore they can take a planet with 5 guys.'

When what you're all actually saying is:

ANYONE with orbital superiority can take a 3rd world human planet with 5 guys.

**Haighus**

Hellebore wrote:
So there's an issue of detail that people miss that means they use this as justification for other things.

sure, in this one specific highly particular scenario where the marines have orbital superiority and no enemy ships to combat or ground laser destroyer silos and are basically terrorising a 21st century level planet, they can claim victory.

But that scenario is also pretty beneath them as a strategic usage. There aren't enough marines for them to be used in such a pointless way.

ANY faction in the same scenario with a capital ship in orbit and no defensive weaponry or ships is going to do pretty much the same thing. And using the navy to bring this planet back into compliance would have been cheaper and more strategically sound than wasting your elite strike ops teams on subduing a 3rd world planet.

But no one positions the arguement from the perspective of the enemy the marines were fighting, it's always 'marines are so hardcore they can take a planet with 5 guys.'

When what you're all actually saying is:

ANYONE with orbital superiority can take a 3rd world human planet with 5 guys.

If you read the account, the Marines start by taking out two orbital weapons platforms crewed by 15000 soldiers. I'm not sure which 21st century power has 15000 soldiers in orbital weapons stations...

Also, the account says nothing about whether the planet had surface to orbit or surface to air defences. The Marines deliberately baited PDF units out of position to destroy them, then were able to launch a direct assault on the Governor's palace. The palace wasn't flattened by an orbital bombardment, suggesting it was not vulnerable to that kind of attack.

The difference between a Marine naval strikeforce and most other Imperial forces with naval power is that the Marine ships come with a special munition that can be used to take out defenses that are normally able to resist orbital attacks- the Marines themselves. The vessels are also optimised for orbital assaults so they can do these operations with lower casualties.

At least outside the periods of great crisis (including the end of the 41st millennium onwards), I think this is the most common type of Marine action throughout the Imperium. It isn't much of a challenge, perhaps, but a single roving strike cruiser could bring multiple rebel worlds back into power each year very easily, where a combined Imperial Navy and Guard taskforce would need to be assembled for each such world and grind them down. It is actually a very efficient use of Marines IMO.

As an aside, "3rd world" isn't a helpful term, that term means countries not aligned with NATO or the Warsaw Pact. It is falling out of use now the Cold War is fading into the past. Poorly developed is a much more accurate phrase for what you want to say.

**Hellebore**

If we really want to analyse the text, it's pretty clear it wasn't a small group of marines.

They don't actually mention how many ships they have, only that they were able to launch drop pods and thunderhawks. Multiple. So very unlikely to be a small force of marines. And that they surrounded the palace, something you can't do with 5 men.

Even if we assume only one strike cruiser, that's a capital ship. Capital ships are actually rare, most ships are escort class.

All 40k capital ships are similarly powerful and capable of attacking surface targets. The bombardment cannon of the marines is just specifically designed for that role and is coopted to fight ships. While the anti ship weapons on other ships are coopted to strike surface targets.

But surface bombardment is not a marine only capability, nor even a specialised capability.

A single capital ship emerging in system nukes two orbital defence systems. That is not particularly hard. They are then described as achieving orbital superiority and proceed to take apart the PDF.

So the ONLY planetary defence were those two orbital weapon stations. They spend the rest of the time using thunderhawk gunships, bombardment and drop pods to dismantle the PDF. A single thunderhawk gunship is a formidable weapon, and would have by itself destroyed large chunks of the forces opposing it.

Once the PDF are gone, the governor has no other defence.

So, they established orbital superiority over a planet with no means of striking at them in orbit. Any force in 40k with that advantage is going to win.

**Haighus**

The attacking Marines had a battlebarge, it is mentioned later in the passage. That suggests a Marine force of 1-3 companies so roughly 100-300 Marines. I never claimed it was 5 Marines in this passage, or 10-20.

Notably, no mention of orbital bombardment is given and the palace fell to a conventional assault followed by demolition charges. If an attack with bombardment cannon could have achieved the same thing, I don't think they would have gone for the assault. This suggests surface to orbit defenses, such as a void shield (fairly common around governor seats).

In addition, the initial Marine landings were intended to draw out PDF units into the attack. Why? At the very least, that would suggest doing so would make orbital bombardment more efficient by concentrating units, it could also suggest they occupied positions with surface to orbit defenses and needed to be drawn away from them.

At the very least, the Marines went to a lot of effort to land ground troops and engage in hostilities for several days. That alone heavily suggests just swapping out for a Navy battleship wouldn't be able to achieve the same result so quickly, if all that was required was orbital bombardment.

**JNAProductions**

Unless the Marines were just being glory hogs.

**Hellebore**

Haighus wrote:
The attacking Marines had a battlebarge, it is mentioned later in the passage. That suggests a Marine force of 1-3 companies so roughly 100-300 Marines. I never claimed it was 5 Marines in this passage, or 10-20.

No that was directed at the other commentary about this item, there's kind of two different discussions and this piece of text was often used out of context to describe marine superiority.

Haighus wrote:

Notably, no mention of orbital bombardment is given and the palace fell to a conventional assault followed by demolition charges. If an attack with bombardment cannon could have achieved the same thing, I don't think they would have gone for the assault. This suggests surface to orbit defenses, such as a void shield (fairly common around governor seats).

In addition, the initial Marine landings were intended to draw out PDF units into the attack. Why? At the very least, that would suggest doing so would make orbital bombardment more efficient by concentrating units, it could also suggest they occupied positions with surface to orbit defenses and needed to be drawn away from them.

I mean you can infer a lot of things when nothing is specified. I could just as easily say that there was a secret psyker choir creating a confusion field protecting the palace so they had to land and take it out. I could also rationalise it by saying that everything was far too spread out for bombardment to be effective, they'd waste all their ammo and not get a good enough saturation. Doesn't mean much when nothing about it is said. Void shields are not impenetrable and don't make you immune from orbital fire.

If there were ground to orbital weapons the barge wouldn't have been described as having orbital superiority and stayed in orbit to act as a drop ship for the pods and hawks. Superiority means you control it, but if you're a sitting duck for ground weapons you don't have superiority.

Haighus wrote:

At the very least, the Marines went to a lot of effort to land ground troops and engage in hostilities for several days. That alone heavily suggests just swapping out for a Navy battleship wouldn't be able to achieve the same result so quickly, if all that was required was orbital bombardment.

Orbital bombardment would have solve it faster, not slower. The amount of damage they can cause is huge, but its pretty indiscriminatory. It just would have left a lot of collateral damage that maybe they didn't want to cause.

My point is that anyone else could have conquered the planet with the same amount of resources. That the marines wanted to conquer it in a particular way for some unknown and apparently unimportant enough reasons to mention in the text doesn't change that. Remembering that they are taking back an imperial planet from a rebellious governor, not conquering an alien planet.

Flip the script and make it an alien world with 2 defence platforms and a leader in a palace. They would have still conquered it, but not cared about the collateral damage in the process. So to an alien race like the eldar or orks, the humans are aliens to be conquered and doing it from orbit is easy in this scenario.

**Grey Templar**

It could also be that the Marines didn't feel like causing too much collateral damage. Or it was important to confirm the death of the rebellious governor in person as opposed to just cratering the palace, which would leave room open for the possibility of escaping and long term insurgency.

The vast majority of the civilian population in the Imperium is most likely apathetic to who is actually in-charge. If you just take out the commanders of a rebellion, the civilians will fall in line. Heck, they may have been unaware a rebellion was underway. Even the PDF could be unaware. A governor just decides one day to stop sending the Tithe and fortifies the planet. Nobody in the lower ranks is going to question him, he is the anointed governor.

If him and his immediate command, and loyal bodyguard, are annihilated in a surgical strike and then a Space Marine sends out a planetary message that the previous governor was a traitor and to follow the orders of the new governor the vast majority of people will just shrug and go about their day.

Its a lot like how things operated in the early Middle Ages. The armies of the time were actually really tiny compared to during the Roman Empire or the Late Middle Ages. A few hundred men was fairly typical, at most a few thousand on the higher ends. You take the local fortification and you can control an area with many thousands of people living in it and the locals may not even realize or care that land changed hands.

**Haighus**

Hellebore wrote:
Haighus wrote:
The attacking Marines had a battlebarge, it is mentioned later in the passage. That suggests a Marine force of 1-3 companies so roughly 100-300 Marines. I never claimed it was 5 Marines in this passage, or 10-20.

No that was directed at the other commentary about this item, there's kind of two different discussions and this piece of text was often used out of context to describe marine superiority.

Fair.

Haighus wrote:

Notably, no mention of orbital bombardment is given and the palace fell to a conventional assault followed by demolition charges. If an attack with bombardment cannon could have achieved the same thing, I don't think they would have gone for the assault. This suggests surface to orbit defenses, such as a void shield (fairly common around governor seats).

In addition, the initial Marine landings were intended to draw out PDF units into the attack. Why? At the very least, that would suggest doing so would make orbital bombardment more efficient by concentrating units, it could also suggest they occupied positions with surface to orbit defenses and needed to be drawn away from them.

I mean you can infer a lot of things when nothing is specified. I could just as easily say that there was a secret psyker choir creating a confusion field protecting the palace so they had to land and take it out. I could also rationalise it by saying that everything was far too spread out for bombardment to be effective, they'd waste all their ammo and not get a good enough saturation. Doesn't mean much when nothing about it is said. Void shields are not impenetrable and don't make you immune from orbital fire.

If there were ground to orbital weapons the barge wouldn't have been described as having orbital superiority and stayed in orbit to act as a drop ship for the pods and hawks. Superiority means you control it, but if you're a sitting duck for ground weapons you don't have superiority.

But if we are infering nothing, then we also cannot infer that orbital bombardment was used at all- only Marines attacking via drop pod and Thunderhawk are mentioned. Infering nothing feels counterproductive given this is not a comprehensive account and does happen in the wider context of 40k. If we infer nothing, how do we even know this battlebarge has functioning bombardment cannon?

Wasting all their ammo would be a good reason orbital bombardment would not be particularly effective, I mentioned that as a possibility myself

Void shields are not infallible, but they represent a serious impediment (particularly large ground-based ones) that may have meant this approach was the quicker one.

I don't think orbital supremacy means the ground forces necessarily had no way to attack orbital forces. The Allied airfirces were described as having air supremacy by the end of WWII, but the German forces still had effective AA weapons that alrered the flying behaviour of the Allied aircraft, they just no longer had any realistic ability to contest the airspace themselves.

Haighus wrote:

At the very least, the Marines went to a lot of effort to land ground troops and engage in hostilities for several days. That alone heavily suggests just swapping out for a Navy battleship wouldn't be able to achieve the same result so quickly, if all that was required was orbital bombardment.

Orbital bombardment would have solve it faster, not slower. The amount of damage they can cause is huge, but its pretty indiscriminatory. It just would have left a lot of collateral damage that maybe they didn't want to cause.

My point is that anyone else could have conquered the planet with the same amount of resources. That the marines wanted to conquer it in a particular way for some unknown and apparently unimportant enough reasons to mention in the text doesn't change that. Remembering that they are taking back an imperial planet from a rebellious governor, not conquering an alien planet.

Flip the script and make it an alien world with 2 defence platforms and a leader in a palace. They would have still conquered it, but not cared about the collateral damage in the process. So to an alien race like the eldar or orks, the humans are aliens to be conquered and doing it from orbit is easy in this scenario.

It is straight up an assumption that the same effect could have been achieved quicker with orbital bombardment alone. Maybe it could have, maybe it couldn't.

I do think there are interesting parallels to be drawn with the events of the Nightbringer novel, where Uriel Ventris's force does destroy a planetary arsenal from orbit using magna bombs. Here they place demo charges. Why? For me the logical answer is because they didn't think they could achieve it from orbit as quickly.

The Inquisitor giving the account specifically notes the Marines ignored his plan for a decapitation strike with minimal collateral damage and chose to take the entire military of the world apart. The planet is so fethed it probably won't reach its tithe requirements in the next year. It certainly doesn't sound like minimising collateral damage was a goal. Ensuring the death of the governor is a reasonable argument, but it sounds like they could have done that from the beginning without annihilating the entire military.

The phrase "same amount of resources" is doing a lot of heavy lifting. By design, Marines are an exceptional concentration of force only really matched by some of the other big players of the galaxy like Eldar or Necrons. To reach the same combat power, most other factions would need considerably larger forces.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
It could also be that the Marines didn't feel like causing too much collateral damage. Or it was important to confirm the death of the rebellious governor in person as opposed to just cratering the palace, which would leave room open for the possibility of escaping and long term insurgency.

The vast majority of the civilian population in the Imperium is most likely apathetic to who is actually in-charge. If you just take out the commanders of a rebellion, the civilians will fall in line. Heck, they may have been unaware a rebellion was underway. Even the PDF could be unaware. A governor just decides one day to stop sending the Tithe and fortifies the planet. Nobody in the lower ranks is going to question him, he is the anointed governor.

If him and his immediate command, and loyal bodyguard, are annihilated in a surgical strike and then a Space Marine sends out a planetary message that the previous governor was a traitor and to follow the orders of the new governor the vast majority of people will just shrug and go about their day.

Its a lot like how things operated in the early Middle Ages. The armies of the time were actually really tiny compared to during the Roman Empire or the Late Middle Ages. A few hundred men was fairly typical, at most a few thousand on the higher ends. You take the local fortification and you can control an area with many thousands of people living in it and the locals may not even realize or care that land changed hands.

I agree, and the Inquisitor giving the account is of the same opinion and laments that the Marines didn't just take out the governor and a few key co-conspirators rather than defeating the entire military in detail.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Better safe than sorry, I guess.

Also the downside of Astartes support. Law unto themselves, and not even an Inquisitor can really challenge them, provided they didn’t do anything overly heretical (like going mental, losing sight of who is friend or foe and just slaughtering everyone).

Even then, one feels that’s a “I’ll go through the proper channels” job.

**Haighus**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Better safe than sorry, I guess.

Also the downside of Astartes support. Law unto themselves, and not even an Inquisitor can really challenge them, provided they didn’t do anything overly heretical (like going mental, losing sight of who is friend or foe and just slaughtering everyone).

Even then, one feels that’s a “I’ll go through the proper channels” job.

Yup, if the Inquisitor in this case tried to pull rank and stop them I think the response would be "you and who's army?". There is a reason some factions in the Inquisition have worked hard to get pet Astartes Chapters that are super loyal to them, as have the High Lords of Terra for that matter with the Minotaurs.

**Col. Dash**

Another thing not mentioned was how the marines took out the defense platforms. It was still a loyal world technically until the marines opened fire and it wasnt. Likely the first platform didnt even have its shields up since the inquisitor and the marines were probably having their meeting in orbit. They could have easily come up with a way to hit both platforms by surprise at the same time. Heck, the meeting with the Inquisitor could have been aboard one for all we know and they already were docked and boarded.

As for the OP question on limitations. The was a short story about a Night Lords warband doing a recruitment drive on an abandoned hive world. They basically did some chaos mumbo jumbo and a giant chaos needle thing drove all the gangers to the top of the hive where they had a Battle Royale and the winners got to be new Night Lords. The ganger protagonist prepped in advance and lured one of the more chaos turned Night Lords into the narrow and short service levels which greatly limited his movement. He put lots of traps that mostly did nothing to the marine except tick him off more and more and slow him down until he angrily blundered into the real trap that took him out. So some of the novels/short stories take the size and weight of marines into account when they write them. I still think nothing beats Talos and his boys hiding behind the bulk of a bunch of Red Corsair Terminators using them for cover and letting them take the return fire because they were so much bigger than them.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Was it the Flesh Tearers that saw other Imperial armed forces refusing their assistance?

Certainly there’s a tale of similar, though it could’ve been cool internet background rather than canon.

On the Inquisitor thing, I guess it’s a bit like a Judicial Review at work. The court can’t necessarily overturn something just because the Judge might’ve come to a different conclusion* but it will consider whether the outcome itself was inherently irrational.

*we have a very different remit and approach to a court, as we can consider what might be fair and reasonable, rather than strict application of the law. Most we win, some we lose.

For Inquisitor vs Marines in terms of “were the Marines out of line” I can see it kinda being the same thing, specifically “did the ends truly justify the means”.

And that I guess will also take into account the sort of world affected, and its place in the local web of supplies.

A fairly innocuous industrial world in a sector noted for an abundance of industrial worlds is a different prospect for levelling compared to and otherwise fairly primitive sector’s sole industrial world. Even then, the Marines can still somewhat rely on their autonomy and judgement, especially if the one giving the order was a Chapter Master or Captain, due to devolved authority and that.

**Haighus**

It is a real thing re. the Flesh Tearers. For example, this communique during the 3rd War for Armageddon (from the global campaign website:

Fleshtearers

+++ Date: 2588999/M41

+++ Ref: Arm/71103491/CTC

+++ By: Canoness Carmina, Order of the Argent Shroud, Fire Wastes

+++ To: General Kurov, Armageddon Command Guard, Infernus Hive

+++ Re: Deviancy within Adeptus Astartes Fleshtearers

+++ Thought: A woman's heart knows no Heresy.

General,
It is with mixed emotions that I can report that the forces of Warlord Rukglum are, at this time, in full retreat. The constant harrying of their rearguard by my Seraphim and Rhino-borne Battle Squads are denying the artillery warbands the ability to deploy their larger guns and I predict that without substantial reinforcements, Rukglum will continue to flee all the way back to Warlord Blagrot's Gargants where we will, reluctantly, be forced to break off pursuit.

I must, however, insist on an immediate Inquisitorial investigation of the Fleshtearers Space Marine Chapter. We were unfortunate to be assigned to fight alongside them in the strike upon Rukglum's artillery positions and their conduct opens the gravest of questions in their suitability within the defence of Armageddon. It is my personal feeling that they are not fit for duty anywhere within our mighty Imperium.

Chapter Master Seth denied me any tactical counsel whatsoever. After nearly a century in leading my Sisters to war, occasionally alongside Marine Chapters, this treatment came as no surprise. The fighting organisation and capabilities of any Sororitas Order is at least the equal to an Astartes Chapter and my Sisters are well versed in the covering of tactical errors by our alleged allies. This alone is of no concern to myself or the Order.

As you will have been made aware, we struck Warlord Rukglum's army as it moved position from shelling the mining outpost Gaius Point, to occupy the settlement. Battered by three days' bombardment, the population of Gaius Point had dug underground and, under the careful ministrations of my Sisters Superior, were determined to form an ad hoc militia to defend their homes. The Fleshtearers launched their attack on the Ork column when it was approximately one Imperial Mile from Gaius Point and, hitting the Orks in the rear and flanks, they drove the disorganised enemy into our waiting guns. Caught between Sister and Marine, many Orks were slaughtered, with the survivors mounting their vehicles to escape with all haste.

We first noticed something was very wrong when three mobs of Orks, deserted by their cowardly leaders, formed up and assaulted our front line, choosing to engage the Gaius Point militia, rather than my Sisters' deadly accurate bolt guns. The Fleshtearers, apparently driven mad by some kind of battle frenzy, crashed into their rear ranks just as the first Orks reached the militia.

It is my fear that no one in the Command Guard will believe what I must report occurred next but, as the Emperor is my witness, these things happened.

The Fleshtearers fell upon the Orks in what I can only describe as an orgy of blood letting. Many Marines had removed their helmets and, eschewing the use of pistols and other ranged weapons, set about the Orks with chainsword and knife and tooth. I swear, I saw it with my own eyes, Marines were ripping out the throats of Orks with their bared teeth. The raw fury and love of carnage I saw in their faces as they literally tore the enemy apart still makes me shudder as I write this. The Orks were annihilated within seconds of the Marines' attack, but the small number of the enemy were simply not enough for the Fleshtearers who by now seemed to have been driven into a fever pitch of absolute blood lust.

With no more Orks for them to butcher, they scrambled over the barricades on the perimeter of Gaius Point and smashed into the thin line of militia. Properly driven into a true battle frenzy now, the Fleshtearers performed acts of the most debauched nature in the name of violence. Men, women and youths, all fell beneath their blades. The old, the infirm, none were spared the Fleshtearers' crazed attack. Sister Superior Shania later reported that she had witnessed cannibalistic acts by the Marines. I did not see this, but I believe it. I ordered my Sisters to withdraw from the Fleshtearers with all haste, before they reached our positions.

The Orks have been defeated once more in the Fire Wastes and the Imperium can claim another victory. But there are no survivors of Gaius Point. None at all.

I must reiterate. It is clear that the Fleshtearers are unstable beyond redemption and an Inquisitorial investigation is the very least Chapter Master Seth and his Marines should be subject to. During my service to the Order, I have heard many strange rumours concerning the Successor Chapters of the Blood Angels, but it is evident that the Fleshtearers have devolved far beyond any point reached by a loyalist Chapter.

Either call in an Inquisitor, or bring the Imperial Navy to bombard these animals from space, but my Order will not fight alongside the Fleshtearers again, I swear it. By the Immortal Emperor and everything I hold to be Holy, my Sisters will not risk themselves by allying with savages, regardless of your own wishes.

Canoness Carmina

I think the same has been stated in more general terms in codices.

**Cruentus**

And that was the kickoff point of my own Flesh Tearers Chapter.

The 3rd War for Armageddon was such a great event.

**usmcmidn**

Col. Dash wrote:
Another thing not mentioned was how the marines took out the defense platforms. It was still a loyal world technically until the marines opened fire and it wasnt. Likely the first platform didnt even have its shields up since the inquisitor and the marines were probably having their meeting in orbit. They could have easily come up with a way to hit both platforms by surprise at the same time. Heck, the meeting with the Inquisitor could have been aboard one for all we know and they already were docked and boarded.

As for the OP question on limitations. The was a short story about a Night Lords warband doing a recruitment drive on an abandoned hive world. They basically did some chaos mumbo jumbo and a giant chaos needle thing drove all the gangers to the top of the hive where they had a Battle Royale and the winners got to be new Night Lords. The ganger protagonist prepped in advance and lured one of the more chaos turned Night Lords into the narrow and short service levels which greatly limited his movement. He put lots of traps that mostly did nothing to the marine except tick him off more and more and slow him down until he angrily blundered into the real trap that took him out. So some of the novels/short stories take the size and weight of marines into account when they write them. I still think nothing beats Talos and his boys hiding behind the bulk of a bunch of Red Corsair Terminators using them for cover and letting them take the return fire because they were so much bigger than them.

Yeah there a several accounts in the books that portray limitations on Marines. I didn’t know of the Night Lords story. Sounds cool. I think they are a bit overblown. Again, I chalk it up to Imperial propaganda. Sure they are super tough. But plenty of books suggest a regular guy can kill an Astarte with a lucky plasma, bolter, or using the terrain as an advantage. I think Commisar what’s his nuts has killed Astartes in hand to hand. The Gaunts ghost books even have accounts of them ambushing whole squads of Marines and taking several down, happens a couple times.

Idk it’s just perspective I guess.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Cain has defeated a Khornate Marine. Kind of.

He duelled one, but it the redoubtable Jurgen that killed the Marine, with a Meltagun.

Cain’s memoirs are a curious case. Here, he puts it down to extreme luck and his duellist skills. But as he always underplays (not necessarily deliberately) his skills, it’s hard to say if that’s applying here.

Which is why the Cain novels are always so interesting to me

**usmcmidn**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Cain has defeated a Khornate Marine. Kind of.

He duelled one, but it the redoubtable Jurgen that killed the Marine, with a Meltagun.

Cain’s memoirs are a curious case. Here, he puts it down to extreme luck and his duellist skills. But as he always underplays (not necessarily deliberately) his skills, it’s hard to say if that’s applying here.

Which is why the Cain novels are always so interesting to me

Ya know, I’ve read about 3 or 4 now and not one was bad. They are pretty good books.