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 Grey Templar wrote:

I think you are greatly overestimating how heavy marines actually are. Yes, 1500-2000 lbs is a lot. But thats only like 3 big refrigerators to put it in perspective. Maybe he will damage the apartment as he moves through it, but the floor isn't going to collapse.

Extremely obese humans have/do exist in the 1000-1200lb range. They don't have to worry about the house collapsing under them, and not just because they can't move themselves.

Eh... refrigerators* don't tend to run which requires putting your entire weight and some more in one foot.

The whole floor isn't going to collapse, but it isn't impossible for a marine to accidentally punch a leg through the floor.

*Humans in the 1000-1200lb range are also not know for being able to run, or even move on their own power.

In terms of architecture it's also very important to remember the Imperium is massively fascist and hyper religious.

The local administratum building exists to remind the little people that they are little. Nothing makes a person feel small than having to walk through a door five times your height just to get to a desk job.

Why is there a mural of the Emperor on the ground the size of a football pitch? Because the Emperor is much more important than you citizen.

'They only fight in imperial architecture' is a strange way to avoid this problem...


All it takes is rebellious people to deliberately build architecture that won't accommodate marines...

Like literally one of the most effective anti marine tactics is hostile marine architecture, where everything is made smaller, with thinner materials.

Tau infrastructure is hostile to humans given how short they are. It would be even worse for marines.

"Haha you can't get me now Space Marine I'm hiding in this building that is only 6ft tall!
Hey what's this weird looking ball?"

As I’ve quoted in other background threads regarding Marines?

“Honey, whatcha doin’? These guys don’t use doors”

All part of the trans human dread shock and awe purpose of Astartes.

 Hellebore wrote:
'They only fight in imperial architecture' is a strange way to avoid this problem...


All it takes is rebellious people to deliberately build architecture that won't accommodate marines...

Like literally one of the most effective anti marine tactics is hostile marine architecture, where everything is made smaller, with thinner materials.

Tau infrastructure is hostile to humans given how short they are. It would be even worse for marines.

It is only really a problem if they are interested in keeping around architecture that is blatantly rebellious and/or xeno.

Space Marines do not tend to have such interest.

EDIT: thinking about it not even modern militaries like having to clear enemy structures room by room or tunnel by tunnel and prefer to just bomb the entire thing.

You mean apart from terminators who were literally specialists at clearing close quarters areas?

their job wasn't so specialised that they only did it in space hulks.

There are all sorts of 40k shennigans that mean they wouldn't just be able to answer everything with bombs. The whole appeal of them would disappear if they actually followed realworld tactics and used bombs for 90% of their actions...

Not wanting to keep architecture is true for virtually all 40k factions, yet they all seem to have to deal with it when they fight. Every faction could just bomb everyone else's buildings to avoid going in them, so it's not solving the marine's problem.

It's just down to the scale. Marines are much bigger than humans, but they are not so much more massively bigger that they're a danger to structural integrity.

Pretty much any structure that is built to last is going to be capable of carrying much more weight than is ever intended to be inside it. And marines are mostly going to be within that safety margin. Sure, they could put a foot through a floor/ceiling in maybe a second story if the situation got serious, but its not going to cause the whole house to come down.

Would a marine awkwardly march through a house breaking small furniture and stuff that is around the house? Probably to most definitely. Would they just fall through the floor like its Loony Toons? No. Omnious creaking and groaning yes, but outright collapse just by daring to traverse a normal structure, no.

Smashing through the walls of a typical civilian building doesn't help if the environment is a tunnel system in a mountain that is not wide or tall enough for Marines. Any similar rat's warren of narrow tunnels such as in the compacted rubble of a hive city (or anywhere where the structure in-between is solid) would render them incapable of getting through (or at least in any timeframe for their role as a rapid strike force).

Yeah, that would definitely keep them out. Send in the guardsmen with the flamers.

 Hellebore wrote:
You mean apart from terminators who were literally specialists at clearing close quarters areas?

their job wasn't so specialised that they only did it in space hulks.

There are all sorts of 40k shennigans that mean they wouldn't just be able to answer everything with bombs. The whole appeal of them would disappear if they actually followed realworld tactics and used bombs for 90% of their actions...

Not wanting to keep architecture is true for virtually all 40k factions, yet they all seem to have to deal with it when they fight. Every faction could just bomb everyone else's buildings to avoid going in them, so it's not solving the marine's problem.

You can either assume the people in 40k are pragmatic enough to send the bunker busters when dealing with mountain tunnels like we do in real life or you can assume everyone in 40k is too insane to make small mountain tunnels and the cultists will conveniently try to duel Space Marines out in the open.

But this arbitrary application of (in)competence is just bad faith.

Anybody who has been reduced to hiding in tunnels in the mountains is probably no longer a threat that Marines are needed for. The Imperial Guard can deal with them by the time that has come to pass.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Anybody who has been reduced to hiding in tunnels in the mountains is probably no longer a threat that Marines are needed for. The Imperial Guard can deal with them by the time that has come to pass.

Genestealer cults would be a relevant foe where such as situation I think would come up reasonably often, either in literal mountain tunnels or their equivalent in the deepest depths of the underhive. Normal human sized cultists or Genestealers have the ability to wriggle their way through small spaces that Marines would not fit in. That's why Marines would not be the best option to root out such cults in that environment.

GW's artistic depiction of hives has always been inconsistent with their supposed population density. They really should be more like the old Kowloon Walled City labyrinth of tunnels and narrow passages.

 Tyran wrote:
You can either assume the people in 40k are pragmatic enough to send the bunker busters when dealing with mountain tunnels like we do in real life or you can assume everyone in 40k is too insane to make small mountain tunnels and the cultists will conveniently try to duel Space Marines out in the open.

But this arbitrary application of (in)competence is just bad faith.

Thank you. That seems to be a common, annoying syndrome in people who insist that Their Guys are always the best guys in any given situation. Of course Their Guys will always make optimal decisions, while The Other Guys will leave themselves wide open and vulnerable to Their Guys.

There's a reason why the Imperium has Space Marines, and vast amounts of expendable infantry from many biomes, and elite crack troops such as Sisters of Battle and Militarum Tempestus, and artillery, and lone assassins, and mindless drones such as arco-flagellants or servitors, and orbital bombardments. Different types of warfare call for different resources and tactics.

Though individual Space Marines are good at many things, I believe it's fair to say that as a group, they are almost as highly specialized as the Craftworld Eldar's aspect warriors. Only a rare few situations unequivocally call for their use over any other available troops, manpower limitations notwithstanding. They are too few in numbers to occupy territory. They are too precious to be wasted on lengthy, low-combat missions such as counter-insurgency or garrisoning a fortress. They are too conspicuous to blend among the populace and engage in intelligence-gathering, sabotage or false-flag operations. They require too much maintenance-heavy equipment for long operations away from their supply lines and chapter serfs. They are too far removed from humanity to bring relief to traumatized populations, gain the trust of that one shell-shocked civilian survivor who possesses vital intelligence, or engage in (or face) any psychological warfare or mind games more subtle than "being very scary". They are too uncooperative and prideful to defer to the expertise of non-Marines who've been on this particular planet or have been fighting this specific enemy for longer than they have. They are too unimaginative and rigid in their thinking to easily adapt to fluid noncombat situations, to improvise once their mission orders are rendered obsolete by unexpected developments on the ground, or to make forbidden compromises such as allying with the enemy of their enemy.

And yes, to state the obvious, they are too big and heavy to be easily mobile in certain places.

.

Also, Termite Drills exist.

Are Hellbores still a thing? Who needs a Teriye when you can lob a whole company in a single tunneller

Kind of? There is a Super Heavy Ordinatus Drill

Or there was. No Ordinatus at all showing on the web store.

You could just take a Hellbore or something similar and just drive it through all the tunnels of any holdouts. Collapse them under rock with no chance to counter the attack.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You could just take a Hellbore or something similar and just drive it through all the tunnels of any holdouts. Collapse them under rock with no chance to counter the attack.

The enemy has a say too. GSC can most certainly destroy one. There’s a scene in the Siege of Terra novels where this happens to a squad of traitor Marines trying to get into the palace. They all died in their transports because they were stuck.

I don't know how much say you have if you are in a tunnel and all of a sudden a drill the size of a tank bursts through the wall and just follows the tunnel with the business end of a blender and a rock tornado in front of it. Basically you'd need to suicide a guy with a melta gun to stand in front of it and hope he doesn't mess it up. Especially when the drill is, as established by this tunnel being too small for marines, larger than the tunnel you are hiding in. It'll just follow it's course like the angriest pacman and short of you blowing up a very very large bomb in its path not much a tunnel dweller is going to do about it.

GSC might be able to tunnel, but they're not going to flank an actively moving drill that is just munching their own tunnels up. They can't swim through the rock like it can.

And its own melta array on the front.

A really big bomb is probably going to be quite effective. Also side tunnels are likely to be a thing to let you hit it in the side as it passes, or pop up behind it.

I now have this stuck in my head (skip to 1:52)

 Grey Templar wrote:
I don't know how much say you have if you are in a tunnel and all of a sudden a drill the size of a tank bursts through the wall and just follows the tunnel with the business end of a blender and a rock tornado in front of it. Basically you'd need to suicide a guy with a melta gun to stand in front of it and hope he doesn't mess it up. Especially when the drill is, as established by this tunnel being too small for marines, larger than the tunnel you are hiding in. It'll just follow it's course like the angriest pacman and short of you blowing up a very very large bomb in its path not much a tunnel dweller is going to do about it.

GSC might be able to tunnel, but they're not going to flank an actively moving drill that is just munching their own tunnels up. They can't swim through the rock like it can.

Admittedly, if there is one faction that can sacrifice personnel in a coordinated fashion, it is Genestealer cults (and Tyranids in general). It is a psychic gestalt with individuals with complete loyalty to the infestation. They definitely would lay suicide traps with explosive mines or mining cutters to take out drilling vehicles. In addition, the vehicles may be vulnerable to genestealers following up the tunnel tracks behind them if a connection is made to the tunnel network.

On the whole, the advantage probably lies with the tunnelling vehicles, but I certainly wouldn't expect GSCs to be helpless in this situation. Any attacking Marines would anticipate heavy resistance. It also depends to some extent on what equipment has been acquired by the cult- the Imperial armoury does include burrowing mole weapons, which could be a really bad day for any subterranean assault if the cult got hold of some.

-Guardsman- wrote:
They are too few in numbers to occupy territory. They are too precious to be wasted on lengthy, low-combat missions such as counter-insurgency or garrisoning a fortress. They are too conspicuous to blend among the populace and engage in intelligence-gathering, sabotage or false-flag operations. They require too much maintenance-heavy equipment for long operations away from their supply lines and chapter serfs. They are too far removed from humanity to bring relief to traumatized populations, gain the trust of that one shell-shocked civilian survivor who possesses vital intelligence, or engage in (or face) any psychological warfare or mind games more subtle than "being very scary". They are too uncooperative and prideful to defer to the expertise of non-Marines who've been on this particular planet or have been fighting this specific enemy for longer than they have. They are too unimaginative and rigid in their thinking to easily adapt to fluid noncombat situations, to improvise once their mission orders are rendered obsolete by unexpected developments on the ground, or to make forbidden compromises such as allying with the enemy of their enemy.

I can't readily recall a specific answer to each one, but I feel as though each of those examples have been counteracted by one story/scenario or another at some point. Right off the top of my head I can think of a Librarian in Terminator armor cloaking himself and his squad in such a way as to pass for normal humans as they investigate a genestealer cult (from Deathwing: Space Hulk Expansion). And the scenario from Ian Watsons Space Marine where Marines are engaged in tunnel fighting on a Squat world on their way to root out chaos corruption, and yes, some Marines get stuck in the narrow tunnels, and butchered. Not to mention that some of a Marine's implants are specifically designed to allow them to operate without logistical support for lengthy period of time, such as the ability to eat almost anything, and the ability to go without sleep for days/weeks.

In general, I think it's safe to assume that much of 40k's less "logical" scenarios are products of haste, where there isn't time to wait for the most optimal strategic assets, or the result of decisions that are made out of pride/honor/disgust or other emotional states. In particular, that Deathwing story specifically states that it is standard protocol to virus-bomb a world with such a large genestealer infestation, but the Deathwing Veterans see it as a matter of pride to try and save the population of their homeworld.

So yeah, maybe it's not logical to send Marines into certain scenarios. But *#@! happens.

 Insectum7 wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
They are too few in numbers to occupy territory. They are too precious to be wasted on lengthy, low-combat missions such as counter-insurgency or garrisoning a fortress. They are too conspicuous to blend among the populace and engage in intelligence-gathering, sabotage or false-flag operations. They require too much maintenance-heavy equipment for long operations away from their supply lines and chapter serfs. They are too far removed from humanity to bring relief to traumatized populations, gain the trust of that one shell-shocked civilian survivor who possesses vital intelligence, or engage in (or face) any psychological warfare or mind games more subtle than "being very scary". They are too uncooperative and prideful to defer to the expertise of non-Marines who've been on this particular planet or have been fighting this specific enemy for longer than they have. They are too unimaginative and rigid in their thinking to easily adapt to fluid noncombat situations, to improvise once their mission orders are rendered obsolete by unexpected developments on the ground, or to make forbidden compromises such as allying with the enemy of their enemy.

I can't readily recall a specific answer to each one, but I feel as though each of those examples have been counteracted by one story/scenario or another at some point. Right off the top of my head I can think of a Librarian in Terminator armor cloaking himself and his squad in such a way as to pass for normal humans as they investigate a genestealer cult (from Deathwing: Space Hulk Expansion). And the scenario from Ian Watsons Space Marine where Marines are engaged in tunnel fighting on a Squat world on their way to root out chaos corruption, and yes, some Marines get stuck in the narrow tunnels, and butchered. Not to mention that some of a Marine's implants are specifically designed to allow them to operate without logistical support for lengthy period of time, such as the ability to eat almost anything, and the ability to go without sleep for days/weeks.

In general, I think it's safe to assume that much of 40k's less "logical" scenarios are products of haste, where there isn't time to wait for the most optimal strategic assets, or the result of decisions that are made out of pride/honor/disgust or other emotional states. In particular, that Deathwing story specifically states that it is standard protocol to virus-bomb a world with such a large genestealer infestation, but the Deathwing Veterans see it as a matter of pride to try and save the population of their homeworld.

So yeah, maybe it's not logical to send Marines into certain scenarios. But *#@! happens.

I also think all the points about inflexibility of thinking and inability to engage with humans is not universal. Marine Chapters are wildly divergent in their cultures, engagement with humanity, and approach to warfare. Individual Marines within those chapters vary too.

For example, the Salamanders live amongst the people of Nocturne, and have a good understanding of humanity and its needs. Many, perhaps even most Marine commanders are not prideful idiots who refuse to listen to non-Marine commanders- Helbrecht and Grimaldus are great examples, and they are senior commanders of the poster chapter for Marine fanatics!

Some chapters are definitely hidebound traditionalists, like the Red Scorpions. Others are noted for flexibility in their tactics, like the Raptors. Even the Ultramarines, the most orthodox of chapters, has engaged in alliances of convenience with xenos against a common (and worse) threat.

Responsiveness to situations changing beyond initial orders is actually one of the strengths of Marines, because they have an independence not afforded to most Imperial forces. The Imperial Guard are much more constrained by inflexible orders than Marines, and expected to not question any valid order on pain of death, even if the orders are outdated and no longer applicable or sane (if they even were to begin with). I agree the toolset of Marines is relatively limited, but they have an enormous amount of freedom in how they employ those tools.

Regarding logistics- Marines themselves are relatively low maintenance (in the short to medium term) but their way of war is not. If they want to fight in their preferred methods they need a lot of munitions to supply it. However, if forced into a prolonged insurgency they can also survive well in that scenario. It isn't the preference of most Marines to get bogged down in long insurgencies with poor supply though. If stuck for too long then their homeostatic balance is likely to go out of whack, Firstborn at least apparently require regular chemotherapy to maintain hormonal balance. Regular doesn't tell us a lot though, it could be once a week or once a decade for all we know. It could also be something that apothecaries can manage in field conditions.

Yeah the comment of "Marines are tactically inflexible and can't respond to changing battlefield conditions" is really off the mark, IMO.

If there's *any* faction in the Imperium that has tactical flexibility off the charts, it's Space Marines.

Guardsmen *sometimes* have the ingenuity to adapt (depending on the commander - some guardsmen commanders are quite happy to commit to "send in the next wave" tactics, hi Chekov), but they rarely have the means to do so (regiments are often deliberately hamstrung in terms of what resources they have direct access to).

Sisters are even more religiously hidebound than Astartes.

Scions have tactical flexibility, but don't have a great deal of tools to use with it - they, and Kasrkins, are probably the most adaptable humans.

Mechanicus are equally hidebound and rigid as Sisters, just serving a different god.

Knights are incredibly prideful and code-bound. Custodes are the most intelligent, but again, lack the tools to commit to a variety of warfare styles.

Space Marines have an exceptionally varied armoury, operational authority in *most* warzones, and much as people see the Codex as some kind of very basic or limiting text, in reality, I imagine that it's incredibly layered, nuanced, and flexible - Guilliman was *all about that*, especially after the Heresy when he realised that his initial plans of warfare were horribly susceptible to being caught flat-footed by unknown opponents. More than likely, the Codex still has a formulaic system, but it's probably incredibly complex, adaptable, and filled with a wide range of tactics that can be switched out at an incredibly rapid rate.

Space Marines are probably the most tactically flexible force in the Imperium, from the combination of their equipment, deployment, operational tempo, and training.

Marines, as well often “well that puts me in charge then” also have carte Blanche to just Go And Do Their Own Thing.

Yes, it would generally work best if everyone has an agreed plan and are working together. But that’s not allowing for Ego (from any party) interrupting things. We see in the Cain novels that the different elements can and will work together, and as much as there’s solid deference to the guys with a couple of centuries of active combat experience, we also see the Marines take on board advice from the Guard, and factor in what a given regiment might specialise in.

And in a theatre prone to rapid change, Marines need to have the freedom to change their mission priorities if an opportunity to cause horrific damage occurs. For instance, when fighting Orks if an opportunity to take out the Warboss occurs? You’re well advised to take it, even if it might be a trap. Because you do that, and you drastically reduce the lifetime of that war, up to and including effectively ending it immediately.

There’s little to no debate on the flexibility of Astartes. But I still believe they have limitations and it would be much smarter to deploy other forces.

Swamps and sand. They sink. Sure there’s novels to suggest they are cool super humans who can stop themselves from sinking by sheer will? but against a competent enemy, like we see in books, they have more of a chance to get one shot by a plasma or a melta because they aren’t as fast in those conditions.

Ships and underground. Same thing. There are mentions in the books there are walls that are Marine proof. This could limit their mobility and a smart enemy could lay melta charges as traps, and or one shot them again. Like we see in the books (looking at you Siege of Terra series).

Sure the Astartes are an awesome flexible fighting force but I think in those cases sending Kasrkin or Scions, or even SOB (lighter), would be the smarter and cheaper option. Why take the chance of losing a Astarte to a one shot plasma when you can send in a couple scions who are cheaper and faster to produce. We know from Space Marine 1, there is someone on a data slate somewhere providing command and control and trying to figure out correct targeting data for the mission. And I get it, it’s a sci-fi setting with space magic and aliens, but it’s still fun to think about stuff like this.

Again though, due to the way pressure works, Marines may not be any more prone to sinking in sand or swamps than, say, a Scion or Guard trooper, because of how large the surface area is on their feet. It isn't completely straightforward because soil dynamics are a bit more complex than that, but ultimately if you distribute the weight enough it won't be a particular issue. Battleships and aircraft carriers don't sink in the sea after all, but a human will if upright.

I also don't think that vulnerability to anti-tank weapons is as big a limitation as you are suggesting. Marines are much less vulnerable to the much more common anti-personnel weapons. In the context of a tunnel fight, Scions may not be able to pass a strongpoint at all due to a heavy bolter or heavy flamer emplacement where Marines can push through. Plus, a plasma gun or melta is more likely to kill a human than an astartes, who has an enormous capacity to survive horrific wounds. They might not be combat capable anymore and are out of the immediate fight, but if they survive the hit and can be extracted they are far more likely to be returned to active service than a human.

In addition, Marines represent a greater concentration of force- if your tunnel can only fit one or two soldiers across such that only a small numbers of soldiers can actually engage at a given time, having those soldiers be well armoured, well armed, tough, strong, and highly skilled means they are more likely to overwhelm equivalent numbers of inferior troops facing them in the confined space. They can keep doing this over and over because they have enormous stamina and the enemy cannot easily bring numbers to bear. Obviously there will be casualties if the enemy has heavy weaponry, but the casualties for other, less powerful troops are likely to be much, much higher. This is with the caveat the power armour doesn't get stuck of course- if the tunnels are simply too small they won't be going in.

This effect actually is present in 40k, or at least used to be. If you look at, say, 5th edition, ~25 power armoured Marines was generally better than 10 Terminators in damage output and durability, but they cost about the same points. However, go into a Zones Mortalis environment, and the 10 Terminators would only have to face about 10 Power armoured Marines at a time, at which point they had superior damage output and better durability, and could comfortably defeat 3 Marine squads one after another. If facing 80 Guardsmen instead, given enough time the Terminators could chew through each squad one at a time with ease, and even 8 plasma guns would probably only take out 2-4 Terminators in a dense tunnel network. 80 guardsmen are much more replaceable than 4 Terminators, but if they fail to protect the main command bunker on the planet and the whole defence collapses, suddenly it becomes much more meaningful. Concentration of force matters if the environment prevents massing units.

So your options might be send in an entire company of Scions or a squad of Marines with boarding shields, and the Marines may still be more likely to get the job done. Plus, whilst Marines are rare, your particular warzone might have only been assigned 1 company of Scions and a squad of Marines happened to show up in a frigate. Those Scions can probably be better employed taking a different objective than the underground bunker complex where their strengths of numbers, speed, and air support can be brought to bear, whereas the Marines can storm the bunker complex with much lower casualties overall.

usmcmidn wrote:
There’s little to no debate on the flexibility of Astartes. But I still believe they have limitations and it would be much smarter to deploy other forces.

Swamps and sand. They sink. Sure there’s novels to suggest they are cool super humans who can stop themselves from sinking by sheer will? but against a competent enemy, like we see in books, they have more of a chance to get one shot by a plasma or a melta because they aren’t as fast in those conditions.

Ships and underground. Same thing. There are mentions in the books there are walls that are Marine proof. This could limit their mobility and a smart enemy could lay melta charges as traps, and or one shot them again. Like we see in the books (looking at you Siege of Terra series).

Sure the Astartes are an awesome flexible fighting force but I think in those cases sending Kasrkin or Scions, or even SOB (lighter), would be the smarter and cheaper option. Why take the chance of losing a Astarte to a one shot plasma when you can send in a couple scions who are cheaper and faster to produce. We know from Space Marine 1, there is someone on a data slate somewhere providing command and control and trying to figure out correct targeting data for the mission. And I get it, it’s a sci-fi setting with space magic and aliens, but it’s still fun to think about stuff like this.

The thing is this, though. The Imperium doesn't do 'smarter and cheaper'. There is this tendency in fandom, reflected in your post, to attempt to rationalize it. But this is a society that banned computers in favor of using people's bodies as data storage and their minds as processors. It is a profoundly stupid society, and not just stupid. It is willfully ignorant, willfully bigoted; it refuses to learn from mistakes.