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I was playing Space Marine 2 when I got to thinking...

Titus was running through a swamp and I thought to myself, hmmm what would happen if he sunk in it? Then I was wondering due to how heavy and big they are how limited of a role they would play. I remember in Afghanistan we couldn't field our MRAPS due to how heavy they were and they'd constantly get stuck.

Due to how many different planets and environments there are, would deploying Space Marines always be beneficial? Swamps where they would sink, deserts they would sink, cramped tunnels they could get one shot with a lucky plasma or melta, battle torn hives where they could fall through a bridge or flooring and fall forever, certain structures purposely are made smaller so Space Marines wouldn't fit and the walls are reinforced so they can't just break through etc... Even in the book Kasrkin they mention that the sands could swallow up a Space Marine and "drown" him.

Logistically and logically speaking, wouldn't about half the time it would behoove the Imperium/Chaos to deploy other elite forces who are slimmer, less heavy, less noisy or whatnot? I get its cool and the vast majority of the time the Imperium uses the guard but what about those well we have to deploy Space Marines times; but the planet is a swamp world thing. Theres only so much grav vehicles and aircraft can do before you have to put boots down. There's tons of other examples but y'all get it.

Verisimilitude?
In my 40k?
How dare you!

For what it’s worth, I agree. Space Marines are massively overhyped by the fluff.

This is the sort of question that has turned me off 40K. Lots of things don't make sense, and sometimes in ways that Rule Of Cool doesn't overcome. A few hundred dudes conquering a planet, chainswords, heavy powered armour being impractical most of the time, one guy's sword making a difference in a battle of walking buildings and millions of combatants, etc etc

I mean… I still love my Space Marines but as I age, the Guard look better and more efficient everyday. Throw in some Kasrkin and a requisitioned squad of sisters with an inquisitor and damn, you got an elite looking group peoples.

Sure, marines are going to be quite heavy in their power armor, but that weight is spread out over their very large feet. So the ground pressure they exert might not be as much as you might think.

Yes, they should be sinking in mud. But depending on how deep it actually is, the power armor could simply power through the mud if its only a couple feet deep to solid ground. Very deep mud or sand would be a big problem potentially, but it depends on if the consistency would be enough to overwhelm the power armor once fully submerged.

As for cities, no issues there. Absolute worst case a Primarus marine weighs maybe 1500 lbs in armor. Which would mean they'd need to be careful in wooden structures perhaps, but anything made of concrete or stone or steel is going to be just fine. The Imperium loves their concrete buildings.

There are two alternate dimension versions of Space marines, and you never really know which one you're looking at.

There's a Codex that says power armour by itself weighs 250lbs and that the ceramite plates have a honeycomb structure, they're not solid like poured concrete. There are still modern Rountree era codexes that say armoured firstborn are a hard 7'0" in armour, the kind of size where if their armour is only 250lb and not solid, that they could possibly walk through wetlands.

There's another universe that exists simultaneously, and that GW also sells at the exact same time, where space marines are so huge you guys. Have you heard of the biggest person ever? Well space marines are bigger than that, by a whole 1 number

When you look at a picture in a Codex or a render in a video game, you're looking at both of these universes simultaneously. We know that the battle cannon on a Leman Russ tank doesnt go straight through the tank commander's crotch and that 120mm is way smaller than in the models ornart. We know that the marine canpaign of Space Marine 1 and 2 in-universe were actually fought by multiple combat squads of marines giving each other covering fire and calling in artillery, and one guy didn't solo 60 chaos Marines who came at him piecemeal.

There's this very plain and brief observation on a reddit post by an average fan that hey, there's differences between the fan films Death of Hope and Astartes

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1f8k00l/space_marine_depictions/

Any time you ask how the Imperium could possibly exist, how could marines fight in wetlands, how could a battle cannon work, there's a version of 40k that answers that. However there's also a version of 40k that consists of heard-it-from-a-friend, one braincell takes about marines being huge, and GW staff are totally fine with incorporating those takes and selling them back to us.

Going to use a metric ton as the rough weight of a Marine (based on the FFG RPGs).

I highly doubt ground pressure is much of an issue. As mentioned, power armour feet have a very large sole surface area. They only need to be ~2.5 times the surface area of a typical modern military boot to lower a 1 ton Marine to a ground pressure roughly equivalent to a typical cow or horse. Cows and horses can pass through marshy or sandy terrain. Will the Marine be slowed? Yes. But so would a typical human carrying a typical military load.

Overall weight is much more of a concern, because gantries and floors will have a maximum load regardless of pressure. This will be fine in most circumstances but could cause issues when terrain starts getting battle damaged. However, most structures can probably carry a ton of weight comfortably.

Tiny crawl spaces are obviously going to be inaccessible, but this is the Imperium. They have no qualms about flaming, gassing, or even targeting the space with orbital munitions designed for digging out buried defences if the situation demands it. Plus Scouts can also be sent in if absolutely necessary.

Re. catching a melta or plasma round in tunnel/confined fighting. Obviously a risk, but power armour means the Marine doesn't need to worry much about catching the much more common small arm rounds flying up the tunnel that would be a major concern without power armour. When it comes down to it, confined fighting is bloody and brutal. Would you rather be vulnerable to everything, or only the anti-tank weaponry?

It’s not just the size of the boot, but the occupant and underlying gubbins.

We know Marines to not only be super humanly strong, but in their armour, that’s enhanced by its powered nature. And thanks to the Black Carapace, its bulk isn’t encumbering. It also has gyro balancing, making them less likely to topple over into the mud making things infinitely worse.

We also have their near tireless physiology. In ideal conditions, a Marine can run for a day and still be combat ready. In less ideal conditions, they’re still going to be going long after other troops needed to stop for a rest.

So, even without going into Bolter Prawn? It seems Marines are still a decent choice in environments that, at first look, seem like they’d be a problem.

Good stuff above. I loves me some real life comparisons to work out just how weird 40k is

On the one hand modern structures should be able to handle a marine in armour, if he doesn't jump up and down too much. Static load carrying is one thing, dynamic impact quite another.

But on the other hand, imperial architecture in particular is so overdesigned it should be fine whatever happens. Also the answer to all of the above is suspensors. Not sure how much they get mentioned in the fluff any more but as far as I'm concerned they are sufficiently ubiquitous that every marine suit could be fitted with them to help with the weight issue. If you want to be really awesome, you make them controllable, so you counter the mass to enable rapid acceleration, then you turn them off just before the massive chunk of posthuman aggression crunches into their target

 Flinty wrote:
Good stuff above. I loves me some real life comparisons to work out just how weird 40k is

On the one hand modern structures should be able to handle a marine in armour, if he doesn't jump up and down too much. Static load carrying is one thing, dynamic impact quite another.

But on the other hand, imperial architecture in particular is so overdesigned it should be fine whatever happens. Also the answer to all of the above is suspensors. Not sure how much they get mentioned in the fluff any more but as far as I'm concerned they are sufficiently ubiquitous that every marine suit could be fitted with them to help with the weight issue. If you want to be really awesome, you make them controllable, so you counter the mass to enable rapid acceleration, then you turn them off just before the massive chunk of posthuman aggression crunches into their target

I do get the impression gravitic tech like suspensirs are very common in advanced Imperial kit and would not be surprised if they feature in Marine power armour to make it more wieldy. Very much speculation, but such tech makes all manner of Imperial equipment vastly more viable, not least Titans. It seems to be ubiquitous in Imperial light spacecraft like shuttles (where it is controllable in Aquila landers to some extent) so don't see why they wouldn't show up elsewhere. I've also speculated before that gravitic tech is used to reduce recoil in Imperial small arms based on the "recoil dampners" in the published stormbolter cut-away.

However, even without that, the nature of ground pressure means it wouldn't be that hard to stop a Marine in power armour sinking too far into mud, unless it is extremely deep and dangerous. There are and have been a lot of creatures weighing a metric ton or more on Earth.

For Suspensors? I’d argue they’re mostly rare on sidearms, because they’d be tiny wee things by comparison. They also introduce further maintenance requirements, so just aren’t an especially practical application?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For Suspensors? I’d argue they’re mostly rare on sidearms, because they’d be tiny wee things by comparison. They also introduce further maintenance requirements, so just aren’t an especially practical application?

Depends on how they work and are manufactured. A lot of Imperial tech seems to be black box tech. An STC production line produces a thing if you put the right raw materials in and press the right buttons, then the thing works for a few centuries. Then you replace the thing if it stops working. If they have a production line that mass produces a miniaturised gravitic recoil dampner doohickey, that makes the gun more controllable if you attach it, no one needs to understand how it works for it to be widely available. Lasguns are the classic example of this process- very advanced tech, mass produced, reliable until they fall apart and either need whole parts replacing or to be sent to a Tech-priest. To your average Imperial, you just connect the components as per the manual, say a few prayers, and the thing works as long as the powerpack is charged.

Lasguns are a simple design, with few if any moving parts though. And they’re produced in such numbers that the few bits that can wear out (mainly the barrel and its contents) screw out and screw in, making replacement a cinch.

A suspensor? Now that’s reducing the mass of the object it’s attached to, By Spaaaaaace Tech Magic. And that, presumably, requires a power source.

If that power source is over or under producing, it’s going to be a bugger. If it’s damaged, function and performance could be affected. And as we don’t know how fragile or robust they are, it could be they need frequent replacement when strapped to field weapons, which are going to get jolted and knocked around as a matter of course.

Within armour, those issues would still exist. But we could argue if they are present? It’s part of the overall design plans, and so would presumably have mitigation in place, such as being placed in well protected areas with shock absorption of some kind, and being regulated alongside the other crazy systems by the power armour’s wearer.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Lasguns are a simple design, with few if any moving parts though. And they’re produced in such numbers that the few bits that can wear out (mainly the barrel and its contents) screw out and screw in, making replacement a cinch.

A suspensor? Now that’s reducing the mass of the object it’s attached to, By Spaaaaaace Tech Magic. And that, presumably, requires a power source.

If that power source is over or under producing, it’s going to be a bugger. If it’s damaged, function and performance could be affected. And as we don’t know how fragile or robust they are, it could be they need frequent replacement when strapped to field weapons, which are going to get jolted and knocked around as a matter of course.

Within armour, those issues would still exist. But we could argue if they are present? It’s part of the overall design plans, and so would presumably have mitigation in place, such as being placed in well protected areas with shock absorption of some kind, and being regulated alongside the other crazy systems by the power armour’s wearer.

Lasguns are also space tech magic that requires a power source. The issue isn't how advanced the tech is, it is how easy to use the finished product is. If a piece exists that just needs to be plugged in and Bob's you uncle like lasguns, perfect! If not then yes, complicated. This is all speculation (beyond the stormbolter having some kind of space magic recoil dampner)) but it is plausible that Imperial tech exists that is used for these purposes.

What we know of as suspensors (gravitic gear that is sufficiently heavy duty to easily move around heavy weapons) may also be a significantly tougher ask than something which merely lightens armour a bit or reduces recoil a bit. Equally, one may be more rare than the other simply due to what production capacity has been rediscovered and salvaged by the Mechanicus.

I don't think moving parts is necessarily all that relevant. My smartphone has about as many moving parts as a lasgun, but I know which is more likely to survive being dropped on the floor. Equally, my smartphone is vastly more durable than a 1st generation iPhone when the screen would crack if you looked at it funny. My car is full of moving parts, and has lasted much longer than my phone will. I'd assume any recovered STC fragment for gravitic tech designed to work in weapon systems is sufficiently ruggedised for the task given that Imperial tech tends to be extremely rugged. Even something advanced and comparatively finicky like a boltgun or plasma gun is sufficiently rugged that underhive gangs can manage to keep them running enough of the time that they don't just avoid them altogether.

Again, this is all speculation. But such tech is common for other Imperial applications, so I think it really does come down to whether a Tech-priest has found and deseminated the right STC fragment or not.

This is an issue all gw lore suffers from, it's most obvious in marines because they get the most exposure.

I'm imagining a drop pod assault on a hierophant biotitan in a swamp. Upon disembarking the marines immediately sink up to their necks and are completely stuck in the muck. All they can do is shout insults at the thing before it inevitably squashes them. The tyranid monstrosity, completely unimpressed, reacts by hissing and glaring at the marines, as it too sank and is stuck up to its neck.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
This is an issue all gw lore suffers from, it's most obvious in marines because they get the most exposure.

I'm imagining a drop pod assault on a hierophant biotitan in a swamp. Upon disembarking the marines immediately sink up to their necks and are completely stuck in the muck. All they can do is shout insults at the thing before it inevitably squashes them. The tyranid monstrosity, completely unimpressed, reacts by hissing and glaring at the marines, as it too sank and is stuck up to its neck.

If the mud is thick enough to sink up to the neck, I'm not convinced typical soldiers are going to fare any better? That just sounds like terrain where nobody should be fighting on foot.

Yeah, Lasgun power packs are so much of the space magic. And can apparently amplify available energy by being able to be charged in a reasonable time in a simple fire.

They are, but in-universe the tech is understood well enough that it’s pretty straight forward, hence its appeal to arming a force as vast and diverse as the Imperial Guard.

To us it’s a miracle of technology. But to the Imperium it’s simple, robust and ubiquitous to manufacture, distribute, consistently resupply, use and maintain.

Suspensors? Described as being rare technology, though of course rare is still an incredibly subjective word in terms of the Imperium and scale of manufacture. 1 to 100 or even 1 to 1,000 could correctly be described as rare - but still involve untold billions of examples galaxy wide. What it means to the Imperium is likely “not enough to reliably issue to all that might want, and so reserved for specific applications”.

Good and linked example are Servo Skulls. Whilst the inner gubbins can be maintained for yonks, they’re still produced in seemingly vast numbers, most if not all involving anti-grav tech. But, Imperium being the Imperium, that’s a sanctioned use, and it’s either forbidden or hasn’t occurred, to use the inner gubbins for more fighty uses.

I would ensure my space ship only had tight small corridors and doors. Suck that astartes!

 pelicaniforce wrote:
. We know that the battle cannon on a Leman Russ tank doesnt go straight through the tank commander's crotch and that 120mm is way smaller than in the models ornart.

At this point my mind went to Dominion tank police and I missed the rest:https://youtu.be/5e_9lHYiOxI?list=PLLhOnau-tupRczEFbCu7-lXsmRTkXgyrD&t=806

The space marine deterrent?

 Haighus wrote:

shortymcnostrill wrote:
This is an issue all gw lore suffers from, it's most obvious in marines because they get the most exposure.

I'm imagining a drop pod assault on a hierophant biotitan in a swamp. Upon disembarking the marines immediately sink up to their necks and are completely stuck in the muck. All they can do is shout insults at the thing before it inevitably squashes them. The tyranid monstrosity, completely unimpressed, reacts by hissing and glaring at the marines, as it too sank and is stuck up to its neck.

If the mud is thick enough to sink up to the neck, I'm not convinced typical soldiers are going to fare any better? That just sounds like terrain where nobody should be fighting on foot.

Also I'm not convinced infantry is a good choice for taking on an enemy titan, specially as Tyranid bio-titans don't even have the weaknesses Imperial titans have to infantry (no way to board it and the thing regenerates like a MCU character).

Stop being cheap and bring your own titan.

There is bound to be some kind of sphincter that some enterprising brothers could swim up

We see, in hyper dramatic form, the potential weakness of Bio Titans in Starship Troopers.

Whilst Johnny Rico made it look overly easy, with a pretty bog standard rifle knocking its way rapidly through chitin? The approach is workable.

Get atop it, and carve your way into the guts via the inevitable weak points - gaps where the chitinous plates meet etc. Get your hole going, then start stuffing in Krak, Plasma or Melta, and give it gut rot something fierce.

 Tyran wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

shortymcnostrill wrote:
This is an issue all gw lore suffers from, it's most obvious in marines because they get the most exposure.

I'm imagining a drop pod assault on a hierophant biotitan in a swamp. Upon disembarking the marines immediately sink up to their necks and are completely stuck in the muck. All they can do is shout insults at the thing before it inevitably squashes them. The tyranid monstrosity, completely unimpressed, reacts by hissing and glaring at the marines, as it too sank and is stuck up to its neck.

If the mud is thick enough to sink up to the neck, I'm not convinced typical soldiers are going to fare any better? That just sounds like terrain where nobody should be fighting on foot.

Also I'm not convinced infantry is a good choice for taking on an enemy titan, specially as Tyranid bio-titans don't even have the weaknesses Imperial titans have to infantry (no way to board it and the thing regenerates like a MCU character).

Stop being cheap and bring your own titan.

Ehh, I mean. Infantry will be potentially able to take on weak points and stuff, Titans will also potentially be distracted with larger threats. Just like real tanks can be if they get into an urban setting. Doesn't quite work on tyranids of course, but they're gonna be squishier than the metal titans anyway.

And infantry are very very cheap compared to a Titan. If you lose a few hundred or a thousand infantry and they managed to slightly damage one of its legs it was probably worth it. Yes, you want your own titans to actually fight a titan, but as one of the Magos in the Titanticus novel said "The battlefield is littered with the husks of Titans whose Princeps did not respect infantry"

IIRC, there is a part in one of the Dark Imperium books where the Ultramarines are assaulting a world held by the Death Guard, and they have to walk in a swamp to reach the enemy. At some point they are entirely buried in the mud, but keep moving forward.

Low-tech structures are the ones that always left me wondering where marines are concerned. If a marine tried chasing some heretic through my last apartment, I'm pretty sure he'd fall through the floor. Your classic rope bridge with wood steps would probably be a big nope for astartes. Need to scale a wooden ladder to get on top of a roof? Too bad. Guess you'll have to level the whole building and grab the mcguffin from the rubble.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Low-tech structures are the ones that always left me wondering where marines are concerned. If a marine tried chasing some heretic through my last apartment, I'm pretty sure he'd fall through the floor. Your classic rope bridge with wood steps would probably be a big nope for astartes. Need to scale a wooden ladder to get on top of a roof? Too bad. Guess you'll have to level the whole building and grab the mcguffin from the rubble.

Hah, there are some chapters/legions where the last point would be their Plan A anyway

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Low-tech structures are the ones that always left me wondering where marines are concerned. If a marine tried chasing some heretic through my last apartment, I'm pretty sure he'd fall through the floor. Your classic rope bridge with wood steps would probably be a big nope for astartes. Need to scale a wooden ladder to get on top of a roof? Too bad. Guess you'll have to level the whole building and grab the mcguffin from the rubble.

I think you are greatly overestimating how heavy marines actually are. Yes, 1500-2000 lbs is a lot. But thats only like 3 big refrigerators to put it in perspective. Maybe he will damage the apartment as he moves through it, but the floor isn't going to collapse.

Extremely obese humans have/do exist in the 1000-1200lb range. They don't have to worry about the house collapsing under them, and not just because they can't move themselves.

Also, from what we’ve seen of Imperial Architecture, and therefore the majority of the known settled world of the Galaxy? Big is the order of the day.

And not just to allow Astartes to move about. But more mundane things, such as Cargo Servitors, supply vehicles etc etc.

Even Orkytecture seems to favour high ceilings and large doors, probably so as little as possible gets in the way of a good fight, and to give the Orks room to freely move about, no matter how big they might get.