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tag8833 wrote:
I playtested both my proposed army lists, and the Da Boyz missions yesterday, and now that I understand the missions, and also what lists are strong (NewCrons mopped up), and what lists I don't need to worry about as much (Eldar with 3 Serpents aren't near as scary). So I've decided to take a Living Artillery list:

Spoiler:

Tyranid CAD (1460 Points, Source #1):
Hive Tyrant (Wings, Electronshock Grubs, 2 TL-Devourers) *Warlord
Hive Tyrant (Wings, Electronshock Grubs, 2 TL-Devourers)

Venom
Venom
Zoey

18 Hormagants
19 Hormagants
3 Rippers (Deep Strike)

20 Gargoyles
Hive Crone

Tyrannofex (Electroshock Grubs)
Carnifex (2 TL-Devourers)

Living Artillery Node (390 points, Source #2):
3 Warriors (Barbed Strangler)
3 Biovores
Exocrine

For most tourneys, Biovores can be a situational thing, because they can't contribute if the opponent is meched up. But with Da Boyz limits on dedicated transports, that goes away, and with some missions focus on board control, Necron warrior blobs can be so dominant, so Living Artillery seems like the best option even though I have to give up access to Malanthropes, Dimacharons, Tyrannocytes, and all formations.


Some interesting things about the newcrons from a test game I had.
1) 20 Termagants were locked in combat with 2 Tomb Blades for 8!!! rounds of combat.
2) 2 Wraiths multi-assaulted a Carnifex and a Tyrannocyte. After a long, long time, the Tyrannocyte came out of it with 1 wound left.
3) I charged 3 Warriors with a Tyrannofex. It took 5 rounds of combat to finish them.
4) Necrons can shrug off devourer shots like nobody's business.

That's why I don't play close-combat bugs, at least not competitively. With the exception of the dimachaeron, they really aren't very efficient in terms of cc-output, and if you run a cc-focused Tyranid army, you will hurt yourself against some of the better shooty armies.

I'm not surprised at all about the resiliency of the Newcrons. With the lack of AP2 shooting, even a 3+ Immortal in a Decurion detachment is equivalent to a 2+ model (and that isn't counting the re-roll 1's for RP). Combine that with Zahndrekh, who can let the army re-roll failed Morale/pinning tests and you've got a truly resilient army. The best way to beat them now is through board control. Kill off their mobile units and lock them into their side of board. Then take the objectives. Unfortunately with a lot of the denial lists that exist currently, that may be easier said than done.

BTW, I think that your list is the right direction when going up against Necrons. More bodies to lock them up is probably the best way to deal with them.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I think that your list is the right direction when going up against Necrons. More bodies to lock them up is probably the best way to deal with them.

The bodies will also be Key against Eldar. I expect most lists to have 2 Wraith Knights, and a Wraith Lord. Also I expect most Dark Eldar to include Cronos and Talos. 'Da Boyz comp has created a weird situation that many armies will be looking to MC's, and without Forgeworld, Tyranid just can't compete with the better MC's available to most other armies.

I been going over the warlord traits and it seams to me the Command Traits table is the best table to pick from for Null deployment style list. While Strategic Traits has the reroll trait but the rest don't really help the list at all.

The command table only has one that's not any good. and it not bad we just have it already. The rest help with one faze or another. What do you guys think about the warlord tables.

shadowfinder wrote:
I been going over the warlord traits and it seams to me the Command Traits table is the best table to pick from for Null deployment style list. While Strategic Traits has the reroll trait but the rest don't really help the list at all.

The command table only has one that's not any good. and it not bad we just have it already. The rest help with one faze or another. What do you guys think about the warlord tables.

Strategic is hands down the best, even if going for null deployment Nids. The only one that will probably see little use is the Pinning (but even then, can stop units going for Objectives for first turn). Every other gives you Stealth in Ruins or Stealth in Night Fighting, re-roll your reserves, make your opponent less likely to get reserves on the field or Outflank some units since Infiltrate gives Outflank to D3 units and Warlord.

So guys
Im going to submit my nids order,I'm going to order
3 Malanthropes
1 Barbed Hierodule
3 Biovore
6 Lictors
1 Tyrant
1 Mawloc
1 Tervigon

any tips on anything I should get again?

You won't need 3 malonthropes

Agree with Eldercaveman.

If you've got the right bitz you could probably save a few bob on the Biovores and convert them from something else (I did mine out of Hive Guard)

Here's a handy Biovore conversion tutorial I made http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/575587.page

Pertruabo wrote:
So guys
Im going to submit my nids order,I'm going to order
3 Malanthropes
1 Barbed Hierodule
3 Biovore
6 Lictors
1 Tyrant
1 Mawloc
1 Tervigon

any tips on anything I should get again?

My recommendation would be:

Drop 2 malanthropes.

Since lictors compete in the same slot as the malanthrope, drop 1 lictor.

Get 3 Forgeworld meoitic spores (to be used as mucolids).

Get 1 more Tyrant.

 Frozocrone wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:
I been going over the warlord traits and it seams to me the Command Traits table is the best table to pick from for Null deployment style list. While Strategic Traits has the reroll trait but the rest don't really help the list at all.

The command table only has one that's not any good. and it not bad we just have it already. The rest help with one faze or another. What do you guys think about the warlord tables.

Strategic is hands down the best, even if going for null deployment Nids. The only one that will probably see little use is the Pinning (but even then, can stop units going for Objectives for first turn). Every other gives you Stealth in Ruins or Stealth in Night Fighting, re-roll your reserves, make your opponent less likely to get reserves on the field or Outflank some units since Infiltrate gives Outflank to D3 units and Warlord.

I thought the same. Tell I looked at my Null list and how the work in general.
Stealth night fight is only on the first turn when only the spore mines are on the table. So not really useful.
Stealth ruins is good. The reroll for reserves is very good for a null list.
-1 reserve rolls for vs. most armies is not that good really. Most armies have no reserves unless fliers.
The pinning is just bad.
The Master of ambush is useless as I am deep striking or reserving everything already.
So out of the 6 traits only two are useful good.

Compare that to the Command traits.
The first allows your units to have LD 10 for test in a 12' bubble. This works vs. leadership teat or take a wound attacks and such things. Instant killing a Fex with that power is not as likely now.
The next make the enemy units test on the lowest LD in the unit. Our scream, and Horror powers work better with this. Also if you remember fear test.
The move though cover power we have so its not that great. Not bad but useless for us.
The next gives us +1 inch to our run charge rolls. Can be use full after we land.
The 5th trait is rerolls all 1 to hit in the shooting in a 12 ' bubble. In my mind that is huge for our units that don't have twin linked.
the 6th trait is reroll all 1's to hit in assault. in a 12' bubble. So the give a kind of preferred enemy to any combat unit that nearby they tyrant. that's pretty good to me.
5 out of 6 are decent to very good.

Compared with Strategic with only 2 that are good . The Command traits just seam better to me for a Null type list. The chance of getting one of 2 useful trait vs. getting 1 or 5 seams better to me.

Why these are good to me? Before the Flyrants would be up the board alone but now.....The tyrant is going to be right up around the action, if he was setting back by himself then these wouldn't any good. But he is not. Null list put your army right in the opponents face and the warlord is right their too..

I'm I wrong or missing something in this reasoning? Please point out.




Also with the passing of LVO we have seen a new play style for Tyranids emerge. It is not really new but has been out of favor for a while. Null deployment.

The three styles I see now competitive are::
1: Flying MC spam
2: Trapdoor spider style with a barbed hierodule and other forge world goodies as the center pieces.
3: A Null deployment with a focus on MSU and a lot of spore mines.
4: a mix of two of these possibly

Each of these list have strong points about them. The question is which one has the edge in competitive play? What are strengths and weakness of each play style? Whatare the good match up and bad ones? Or which has the fewer bad match up?

Each list type makes us relook at units that we may have written off as no good. I thought it would be good to get peoples thoughts on this and what they are seeing in their area in response to the surprising win at LVO. Or if it has had no effect at all.


For my self I Love playing Null deployment list. In 5th ed. that is all I played and it was great fun. I am personally looking forward to finding out how null style Tyranid will effect the meta in the weeks to come. I am trying it out in three week at a local RRT.

LVO Game 1: http://vectdoes.blogspot.com/2015/03/lvo-game-1-eldar-and-dark-eldar.html

I have added the spore mine formation to my adepticon list just for the ability to null deploy

I null deployed against Tau in The Relic the other day and had an amazing turn when I came in. Tau shooting almost took the game from me though.

It's very useful to have those 3 3 wound units that you can hide out of LoS to allow you to null deploy.

Pertruabo wrote:So guys
Im going to submit my nids order,I'm going to order
3 Malanthropes
1 Barbed Hierodule
3 Biovore
6 Lictors
1 Tyrant
1 Mawloc
1 Tervigon

any tips on anything I should get again?

Agree on most of the advice. My main other idea would be to get 5 Lictors and Deathleaper instead of 6 - you can always proxy DL as a Lictor, but that lets you run DL assassin brood should you ever want to.


A few Qs - What's the consensus on the Neurothrope's power, does it need to roll to hit?
- I'm having huge issues killing IKs. Admittedly I got unlucky - last game I hit one from 3 back sides with 12 TL-Dev shots onto each facing, and 2 crone missles into the front. Caused only 1 HP :|. Any tips aside from roll better?

OrdoSean wrote:
LVO Game 1: http://vectdoes.blogspot.com/2015/03/lvo-game-1-eldar-and-dark-eldar.html

Great write up. This has given me some ideas for my list as well. How did your opponents handle you deployment style for Tyranids. Null deployment has not been played really since 5th ed. Do you think it caught them off guard or made them make mistakes in deployment or movement in the first two turns?

shadowfinder wrote:
I thought the same. Tell I looked at my Null list and how the work in general.
Stealth night fight is only on the first turn when only the spore mines are on the table. So not really useful.
Stealth ruins is good. The reroll for reserves is very good for a null list.
-1 reserve rolls for vs. most armies is not that good really. Most armies have no reserves unless fliers.
The pinning is just bad.
The Master of ambush is useless as I am deep striking or reserving everything already.
So out of the 6 traits only two are useful good.

Compare that to the Command traits.
The first allows your units to have LD 10 for test in a 12' bubble. This works vs. leadership teat or take a wound attacks and such things. Instant killing a Fex with that power is not as likely now.
The next make the enemy units test on the lowest LD in the unit. Our scream, and Horror powers work better with this. Also if you remember fear test.
The move though cover power we have so its not that great. Not bad but useless for us.
The next gives us +1 inch to our run charge rolls. Can be use full after we land.
The 5th trait is rerolls all 1 to hit in the shooting in a 12 ' bubble. In my mind that is huge for our units that don't have twin linked.
the 6th trait is reroll all 1's to hit in assault. in a 12' bubble. So the give a kind of preferred enemy to any combat unit that nearby they tyrant. that's pretty good to me.
5 out of 6 are decent to very good.

Compared with Strategic with only 2 that are good . The Command traits just seam better to me for a Null type list. The chance of getting one of 2 useful trait vs. getting 1 or 5 seams better to me.

Why these are good to me? Before the Flyrants would be up the board alone but now.....The tyrant is going to be right up around the action, if he was setting back by himself then these wouldn't any good. But he is not. Null list put your army right in the opponents face and the warlord is right their too..

I'm I wrong or missing something in this reasoning? Please point out.

Night Fighting lasts throughout the game if I am not mistaken. Master of Ambush allows options - if you want to Infiltrate your Flyrants to get an alpha strike, you now can. Agreed about pinning though, it's re-rollable

The strategic traits have army wide benefits. Command traits turn your Warlord into a lynchpin (which he already was with Synapse) and the benefits disappear once he goes down.

EDIT: Looking forward to that batrep

 Frozocrone wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:
I thought the same. Tell I looked at my Null list and how the work in general.
Stealth night fight is only on the first turn when only the spore mines are on the table. So not really useful.
Stealth ruins is good. The reroll for reserves is very good for a null list.
-1 reserve rolls for vs. most armies is not that good really. Most armies have no reserves unless fliers.
The pinning is just bad.
The Master of ambush is useless as I am deep striking or reserving everything already.
So out of the 6 traits only two are useful good.

Compare that to the Command traits.
The first allows your units to have LD 10 for test in a 12' bubble. This works vs. leadership teat or take a wound attacks and such things. Instant killing a Fex with that power is not as likely now.
The next make the enemy units test on the lowest LD in the unit. Our scream, and Horror powers work better with this. Also if you remember fear test.
The move though cover power we have so its not that great. Not bad but useless for us.
The next gives us +1 inch to our run charge rolls. Can be use full after we land.
The 5th trait is rerolls all 1 to hit in the shooting in a 12 ' bubble. In my mind that is huge for our units that don't have twin linked.
the 6th trait is reroll all 1's to hit in assault. in a 12' bubble. So the give a kind of preferred enemy to any combat unit that nearby they tyrant. that's pretty good to me.
5 out of 6 are decent to very good.

Compared with Strategic with only 2 that are good . The Command traits just seam better to me for a Null type list. The chance of getting one of 2 useful trait vs. getting 1 or 5 seams better to me.

Why these are good to me? Before the Flyrants would be up the board alone but now.....The tyrant is going to be right up around the action, if he was setting back by himself then these wouldn't any good. But he is not. Null list put your army right in the opponents face and the warlord is right their too..

I'm I wrong or missing something in this reasoning? Please point out.

Night Fighting lasts throughout the game if I am not mistaken. Master of Ambush allows options - if you want to Infiltrate your Flyrants to get an alpha strike, you now can. Agreed about pinning though, it's re-rollable

The strategic traits have army wide benefits. Command traits turn your Warlord into a lynchpin (which he already was with Synapse) and the benefits disappear once he goes down.

EDIT: Looking forward to that batrep

Night fight last the first turn only sadly. Also the master of ambush defeats the purposes of the null reserve.

 jy2 wrote:

Pertruabo wrote:
So guys
Im going to submit my nids order,I'm going to order
3 Malanthropes
1 Barbed Hierodule
3 Biovore
6 Lictors
1 Tyrant
1 Mawloc
1 Tervigon

any tips on anything I should get again?

My recommendation would be:

Drop 2 malanthropes.

Since lictors compete in the same slot as the malanthrope, drop 1 lictor.

Get 3 Forgeworld meoitic spores (to be used as mucolids).

Get 1 more Tyrant.

Ok cool,get 3 Meoitic spores as in 3 models or 3 sets?

Also I made a list for 500 points

1x Flyrant
(standard loadout)

1x ripper swarm

1x warrior brood
Venom cannon

1x Biovore
1x Biovore
1x Biovore

Why Biovore,some of you may ask.I like Biovores,they remind me of the plasma bug from Starship troopers that shot down their fleets in the 1st movie,hope they perform the same thing in the game.

Also,does anyone here have the new Zoanthropes? I'm going to get some custom battlefoam trays and I need to see how high they are

rigeld2 wrote:
I null deployed against Tau in The Relic the other day and had an amazing turn when I came in. Tau shooting almost took the game from me though.

It's very useful to have those 3 3 wound units that you can hide out of LoS to allow you to null deploy.

Bastion helps with that, tau really struggle with av 14 outside 18 inches.

Pertruabo wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Pertruabo wrote:
So guys
Im going to submit my nids order,I'm going to order
3 Malanthropes
1 Barbed Hierodule
3 Biovore
6 Lictors
1 Tyrant
1 Mawloc
1 Tervigon

any tips on anything I should get again?

My recommendation would be:

Drop 2 malanthropes.

Since lictors compete in the same slot as the malanthrope, drop 1 lictor.

Get 3 Forgeworld meoitic spores (to be used as mucolids).

Get 1 more Tyrant.

Ok cool,get 3 Meoitic spores as in 3 models or 3 sets?

Also I made a list for 500 points

1x Flyrant
(standard loadout)

1x ripper swarm

1x warrior brood
Venom cannon

1x Biovore
1x Biovore
1x Biovore

Why Biovore,some of you may ask.I like Biovores,they remind me of the plasma bug from Starship troopers that shot down their fleets in the 1st movie,hope they perform the same thing in the game.

Also,does anyone here have the new Zoanthropes? I'm going to get some custom battlefoam trays and I need to see how high they are

Three models. Make sure to build them up a bit on cork or something since they're smaller than Mucolids (modelling for advantage shindigs)

List looks good. I think I would personally change the Rippers to Termagants and give an interventing model save for the Warriors/Biovores.

I have the Zoanthrope - it's a bit shorter than the finecast one if you have one of those.

Game 2: http://vectdoes.blogspot.com/2015/03/lvo-game-2-tshft-eldartau.html

A nice read Sean, thanks.

Btw, I have a thread in YMDC on spawned Termagants - do they have ObSec, or not? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/638424.page

Feel free to join the discussion. Would be interesting to hear how it's played in your regions, in Sweden many tournaments are guided by a 'Swefaq' who rules against ObSec in this case.

Pertruabo wrote:

Why Biovore,some of you may ask.I like Biovores,they remind me of the plasma bug from Starship troopers that shot down their fleets in the 1st movie,hope they perform the same thing in the game.

Per chance, are you thinking of Exocrines? They actually do sport a plasma cannon (of a sort).

Biovores are actually a fairly popular unit choice, just their specialty is a bit niche in the current competitive environment.

Pertruabo wrote:

Also,does anyone here have the new Zoanthropes? I'm going to get some custom battlefoam trays and I need to see how high they are

Here you go:


The new ones are a good deal bulkier than the old ones as can be seen.

--------------------------------------

As an aside, the new Harlequins are mean. I had a match against the standard Troupe detachment (3x troupes, 6x Jetbikes, 1x Void Weaver, 1x Solitaire, 4x Mastery Level 2 Shadow Seers, 2x Death Jesters) and it was an absolute bloodbath. Their powers + Telepathy more or less completely shut down my shooting and they deleted everything they came into contact with before any retaliation.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

Pertruabo wrote:

Why Biovore,some of you may ask.I like Biovores,they remind me of the plasma bug from Starship troopers that shot down their fleets in the 1st movie,hope they perform the same thing in the game.

Per chance, are you thinking of Exocrines? They actually do sport a plasma cannon (of a sort).

Biovores are actually a fairly popular unit choice, just their specialty is a bit niche in the current competitive environment.

Pertruabo wrote:

Also,does anyone here have the new Zoanthropes? I'm going to get some custom battlefoam trays and I need to see how high they are

Here you go:

Spoiler:

The new ones are a good deal bulkier than the old ones as can be seen.

--------------------------------------

As an aside, the new Harlequins are mean. I had a match against the standard Troupe detachment (3x troupes, 6x Jetbikes, 1x Void Weaver, 1x Solitaire, 4x Mastery Level 2 Shadow Seers, 2x Death Jesters) and it was an absolute bloodbath. Their powers + Telepathy more or less completely shut down my shooting and they deleted everything they came into contact with before any retaliation.

Well I have read the Exocrine entry,and for that big ass model with only 24" cannon,I think I'll stick with Biovores
and thanks for the Zoan measurements!

Guys do I have the null deployment idea right here?

Deploy only with a bunch of spore mines or mucalids on the field - perferablly hidden or out of LoS.
Opponent potters about turn1, maybe tries to kill a few.
Turn 2+ bring in reserves?

If so my questions then are:
If you're up VS an alpha strike list, how does coming in (potentially piecemeal using reserve rolls) mitigate the opponent alpha striking you turn 2?
Isnt there a chance that with some bad reserve rolls, units come in piecemeal and maybe even late?
It gives board control early to your opponent?
Your opponent might get lucky or good and blow the spores away turn one meaning its an auto loss?
Whats the overall strategy behind it?

Im just curious as to the nuances and advantages of it.

So Sean's success at LVO has tipped my interest back into my nids. I like the null deployment tactics he used and it just goes to show that nids aren't just the 3 flyrant ally everyone wants. I want to play reserve heavy because I think that's the way to go with nids. Other than null deployment I think the herodule is the way to go.

So here's my take on null deployment nids.
Tyranid CAD

Dakka flyrant
E grubs

3 lictors

2 deep striking rippers

3 mawlocs

Tyrannocyte
5 barbed stranglers

Leviathan detachment
2 dakka flyrants
E grubs

Venomthrope

3 mucolids

Tyrannofex
E grubs

Bastion/comms

I think Sean has proven that the codex everyone hated has become mid or even top tier.

I really look forward to seeing the report between Sean and jy2. Should be a blast.

Game 3: http://vectdoes.blogspot.com/2015/03/lvo-game-3-nick-and-his-scouts.html

bobmgee wrote:
So Sean's success at LVO has tipped my interest back into my nids. I like the null deployment tactics he used and it just goes to show that nids aren't just the 3 flyrant ally everyone wants. I want to play reserve heavy because I think that's the way to go with nids. Other than null deployment I think the herodule is the way to go.

So here's my take on null deployment nids.
Tyranid CAD

Dakka flyrant
E grubs

3 lictors

2 deep striking rippers

3 mawlocs

Tyrannocyte
5 barbed stranglers

Leviathan detachment
2 dakka flyrants
E grubs

Venomthrope

3 mucolids

Tyrannofex
E grubs

Bastion/comms

I think Sean has proven that the codex everyone hated has become mid or even top tier.

I really look forward to seeing the report between Sean and jy2. Should be a blast.

The codex isn't top tier, it is Sean who is top tier.

I meant in the right hands it can tackle top tier lists.

You want more lictors for 3 Mawlocs. Guiding them in is so important. I think the ratio you want to hit is at least 2 lictors/mawloc