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n0t_u wrote:Yep, they just really really liked some of the shiny stuff the Witch Hunters had. So they made their own version of some of it.

...Or the Black Templar vows resembled the old SoB 'faith' mechanic where the army got a bonus from the shrine every game. I think some were very similar to the Armageddon BT vows...

For a while I wondered if the SoBs were being used as a 'test bed' to see if certain ideas were too far out for the game and would be received poorly.

I wish they went MORE far out. What they have here isn't "far out", it's bland and generic.

Unfortunately that is true.

Probably being in line with the dumbing down of the game. I still miss the guess template range days.

Pyriel- wrote:I still miss the guess template range days.

Ah, guessing ranges - a mechanism that took skill, and one which, as a Dwarf or Empire player in Fantasy, you learned PDQ...

Hopefully the Ecclesiarchy will make friends with the tech priests again so they'll agree to fix the engines on our Immolators.

Dysartes wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:I still miss the guess template range days.

Ah, guessing ranges - a mechanism that took skill, and one which, as a Dwarf or Empire player in Fantasy, you learned PDQ...

Ah guess range, an annoying mechanic that only served to annoy new comers to the game, and was irrelevant the other 99% of the time. Whhen you can guess to within an accuracy of 1" every damn time its a crap extra step.

A bit like eyeballing the world in 6" increments.

What makes no guess range so overpowering is the ability to place the template so perfectly it maximizes hits and lands on almost every model in a unit. While people can get good at guessing (and I've yet to see these mythical super guessers that can land within an inch from 50" distances every time even at major tournaments) you can't get so good that you can place it exactly 1 mm onto the edge of a base to get that perfect hit.

But thats what the scatter dice is for - you only hit 1/3rd of the time. So no, it really isnt "overpowered"

You obviously never went to any of the UK tournies in 7th ed, or 3rd ed 40k. As an exercise we got a friend to guess a basilisk range on Apocalypse (no need as 4th, but we thought we'd try his old skills out) - he could guess to within 1" when hitting another games tables, at well over 10' distance

It doesn't matter if you are within 1". Unless your friend is guessing stuff like 35 3/10" he isn't hitting that perfect sweet spot you can get by placing the template and maximizing models, especially from over 4 feet away. So 1/3 of the time you are hitting 20+ models.

I think the difference in opinions we are having is probably a 40k vs Fantasy thing. In Fantasy the models are much more densely packed so direct hits will typically generate more models touched. In 40k I don't think it's a problem.

Except in 40k you have "hits" more often, as you reduce scatter.

I play both games quite a bit (more 40K, admittedly) so know what you mean - however it still doesnt make them "overpowered" - what does hurt are cannon being as accurate as they are.

I like the new book but I don't have a preconcieved notion of how they should play. I think the idea of putting down 90ish models supported by 9 hulls at 2k is pretty solid. Especially when that includes a decent CC component, some medium ranged anti-tank, some solid anti-infantry and hardcore close in anti-tank/terminator. But that's just my opinion.

Err, you realize that you could have had a larger squad for cheaper using the previous rules, right?

Both squads are ~125 for a basic squad with a VSS, but the new BSS pays one point more for each sister aftewards. So 234 points for a C:WH basic battle sister squad with twenty members, 245 for a WD book with the same numbers. And the latter pays more for its heavy flamer.

Heck the C:WH version, especially with forgeworld rules for cheaper rhinos, can also end up being cheaper at ten members because of the heavy flamer issue.

Melissia wrote:I wish they went MORE far out. What they have here isn't "far out", it's bland and generic.

Welcome to the world of Dark Angels.

I run 10-man in rhinos. For me the new rules are better we also got a better CC element than we had before. But don't let me get in the way of your vitriol friend

Hulksmash wrote:I run 10-man in rhinos. For me the new rules are better we also got a better CC element than we had before.

Err, no we don't. The only Sisters infantry unit that became better in CC than before is Celestine.

Melissia wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:I run 10-man in rhinos. For me the new rules are better we also got a better CC element than we had before.

Err, no we don't. The only Sisters infantry unit that became better in CC than before is Celestine.

Repentia.

Deathcult too Shuma. But I'm sure some purists won't count them which is fine

Death cult assasins. Far better than before.

Stop thinking pure sisters.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:I run 10-man in rhinos. For me the new rules are better we also got a better CC element than we had before.

Err, no we don't. The only Sisters infantry unit that became better in CC than before is Celestine.

Repentia.

Okay, units that matter.

Hell even they got weaker because of the nerf to the Mistress Repentia.

Melissia wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:I run 10-man in rhinos. For me the new rules are better we also got a better CC element than we had before.

Err, no we don't. The only Sisters infantry unit that became better in CC than before is Celestine.

Repentia.

Okay, units that matter.

Hell even they got weaker because of the nerf to the Mistress Repentia.

They get to strike in combat at some point now. That's a hell of a lot better then before. You have death cults with priests now as well. Thos're pretty good. Not that the sisters ever had good assault units before. So it's kind of a silly question in the first place.

I agree DCAs are better than before, but you can't take them without a special character anymore. Basically, nothing got increased assault capability without any notable drawback except Celestine. And most of the drawbacks are pretty harsh (losing initiative 4 and holy hatred as well as acts of faith in the enemy's turn, for example for celestians, making them weaker than before in melee, while penitent engines are better in assault, but also less mobile than before).

Hulksmash wrote:I run 10-man in rhinos. For me the new rules are better we also got a better CC element than we had before. But don't let me get in the way of your vitriol friend

+1

Having actually made some lists that I like, I am cautiously optimistic. Things are much less bad than people portray.

Melissia wrote:I agree DCAs are better than before, but you can't take them without a special character anymore. Basically, nothing got increased assault capability without any notable drawback except Celestine. And most of the drawbacks are pretty harsh (losing initiative 4 and holy hatred as well as acts of faith in the enemy's turn, for example for celestians, making them weaker than before in melee, while penitent engines are better in assault, but also less mobile than before).

Realistically celestians were never very good in combat. That's sort of a strawman.

Dysartes wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:I still miss the guess template range days.

Ah, guessing ranges - a mechanism that took skill, and one which, as a Dwarf or Empire player in Fantasy, you learned PDQ...

Guess-ranging has nothing to do with skill, and opens the door wide open for cheating.

Omegus wrote:Guess-ranging has nothing to do with skill, and opens the door wide open for cheating.

???

You going to explain how guessing ranges is the gateway drug for cheating?

ShumaGorath wrote:Realistically celestians were never very good in combat. That's sort of a strawman.

They were better than they are now, certainly, and combined with a flamer/heavy flamer and power sword or eviscerator or even a brazier/combiflamer wielding superior could get the drop on most non-assault units (hitting at the same time or earlier than most non-eldar units, as well as hitting more often, after inflicting casualties from divine guidance on the flamer templates).

As an aside, I don't think you quite grasp what a strawman is, but that's for another thread.

This "book" resembles Cruddace's work on the Nid book in a lot of ways. He specifically removed things that irritated his guard army (Spirit of the Martyr, Cloak of St Aspira, Psuedo Fast Immos, Rage Movement) and put in a bunch of cut paste work from other books. Then, he balanced prices against guardsman, because thats what the game revolves around in his mind. I mean, does anyone in their right mind think for a moment that a Battle Sister is even in the same ball park as a basic Tactical Marine? Were 4 meltaguns in a fast attack slot really outshining meltavets that much? We even got a weaker version of guard orders, just to drive the point home about how much he loves him some guardsmen.

I can accept that this is a placeholder to get rid of allies, because GW is sick of answering questions about it. I can accept that they wanted to remove confusion between the GK and SoB versions of the same units. But Cruddace is a moron of Gav Thorpian proportions, when it comes to codex design and internal balance. Further, stupid choices he has made in this list have a good chance of finding their way into the final propper book, meaning the taint of Cruddace may have irrevocably hosed this army forever.

Here are my major issues:
Cannoness- Ok, we get it you hate the 2+ Inv (though every MAREENZ character seems to get a 3+ to go with their T4 seems ok for some reason), but for the love of god why no Jump Pack option? Has anyone seen a Sisters army without at least one Jump Pack Canoness as part of its collection? Artificer Armor on a model with T3 would have been nice, since you hiked the price for no real bennefit, but the lack of a jump pack option is the real travesty, especially with the new emphasis on Seraphim.

Pennitant Engines-
No rage rule and no fleet? Yeah, an open topped killer kan at twice the cost has no business being in heavy support. Armored Sentinals are cheaper, more durable, and they are Fast Attack. This unit will never reach hand to hand against any army with even a passive relationship to the word competitive.

Battle Sisters-
Welcome to the world of Eldar, where troops are taken for no other reason than the fact that you have to have something to hold objectives that tries not to die. The price hike is so utterly ridiculous, even if you do not take the nerfed faith acts into account. Lets pretend there are no GKs, BAs, and SW for a moment, and just compare them to Tac Marines. You get seven sisters for slightly more than five tac marines. Same gear, but inferior toughness, Initiative, strength, and a complete lack of ATSKNF puts them behind the tactical marines in every situation, outside of killing other tactical marines at range with bolters. Thats not even taking the flexibility of Combat Squads and Drop Pods into the mix.

But hey, lets foget that comparision for a moment and do the comparison that Cruddace was undoubtedly doing when he wrote this list. A typical Demo Melta Vet squad in a Chimera weighs in at the same cost as the typical double melta rhino kit battle sister squad. Does anyone actually think that the Mech Battle Sister Squad is superior? And whats worse is that the Melta Vets are not that much worse in close combat than the sisters (certainly less helpless against walkers) and the chimera gives the unit a much longer threat range, thanks to AV12 front and 36" Multilaser.

As someone who played Sisters, and even won with them, I hate this list more than anything I have seen in 40k, and thats including me being a Tyranid player and getting Cruddaced once already, this edition. My wife basically lost all interest in finishing the army, after reading the list, and she mostly plays for fun.

TLDR Version:
Die in a fire Robin Cruddace, you hack among hacks. You make me long for the days of Gav Thorpe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ps- the Death Cultists are a copy paste from the GK book, but in typical Cruddace fashion, he forgot the fact that in that book they generally have a Stubborn LD10 character leading the unit and access to Hammer Hand and Rad Grenades.

Also, he can eat my poo for removing all psychic defense from the book. Hooray for Jaws of the World Wolf rapign half the army!

Melissia wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Realistically celestians were never very good in combat. That's sort of a strawman.

They were better than they are now, certainly, and combined with a flamer/heavy flamer and power sword or eviscerator or even a brazier/combiflamer wielding superior could get the drop on most non-assault units (hitting at the same time or earlier than most non-eldar units, as well as hitting more often, after inflicting casualties from divine guidance on the flamer templates).

As an aside, I don't think you quite grasp what a strawman is, but that's for another thread.

"A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."

Stating that the sisters lost their assault ability to refute what I said because "celestians got worse" is a strawman. Celestians were bad assault troops before, especially for their cost. They were just capable of the act in off situations.

ShumaGorath wrote:Stating that the sisters lost their assault ability to refute what I said because "celestians got worse" is a strawman.

You keep telling yourself that.

ShumaGorath wrote:Celestians were bad assault troops before, especially for their cost.

They weren't excitingly powerful, but they weren't bad for their price, certainly not as bad as you make them out to be.

They weren't excitingly powerful, but they weren't bad for their price, certainly not as bad as you make them out to be.

In fifth they were pretty poor. They didn't stack up to grey hunter, BA assault troops, anything in the GK codex, and most things fielded by vanilla marines outside of tacticals. They certainly couldn't tangle with orks or nids. They were fine in fourth, but that was a very different power level.

This is wardtime. Everything is metal boxes or crack assault troops.