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Phew, much more reasonable.

I seriously hope that this is some elaborate hoax. If it's true that a basic Battle Sisters squad with VSS now costs 1pt more than it did in 3rd Edition, even after the chronic nerfing of the Faith system's versatility, GW would have been better off leaving us the feth alone until they were ready to give us a full book Codex. Until I see the pages myself, I'm going to simply hope we're all being trolled.

Celtic Strike wrote:I think we all knew that it was going away. A few of us are actually pleasantly surprised that its not going away completely. I was afraid of losing them all forever but I'm glad GW kept them in some way. I think the squad based Acts of Faith make sense in the GW design philosophy and goes in line with the Grey Knights squad physic powers.

The thing is, it shouldn't be in line with the Grey Knights psychic powers. Different powers coming from different sources should work differently. In the Sisters' case, the Acts of Faith are all either being provided by a single individual, or are representations of amorphous "superhuman feats" enabled by their zeal, either of which means all Sisters should have access to the same pool of powers. What, do you think the Emperor is going to say "No Relentless for you, little Retributor! You should have joined Canoness Iliona in her squad!"

True, but its equipment EVERYONE has been getting. Ever since 5th came out, imperial forces have been given grenades as standard. Did people bitch when Wolves and Blood angels got grenades? (True they are more capable in assault than the girls) But It gives the girls a little bit more options against vehicles if our meltas fail for some reason. Its better to have them than not.

Not if we're expected to pay extra for them. These things are not worth an extra point because if you're playing the Sisters right, you'll almost never have the option to use them.

Celtic Strike wrote:I never meant to imply that the old faith system was OP but many people couldn't understand it and it was a huge pain to have to explain every game. Plus we only ever used two of the faith abilities anyway so it doesn't matter that much.

Then they should have at least given everyone the two Faith abilities people actually wanted to use.

I imagine I'm going to take both jump girls and Celestines


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, I am a little upset that the faith system isn't as expansive as it could be but if every sister did have two choices, wouldn't we bitch that they are of a higher cost than they are already? If they did get two their points would be higher and then we would be even more upset.

Plus, if they give the body guards a choice of the multi melta. That is gonna be awesome.

Wow. Reading the french warhammer forum, it seems that there will be no increasing-faith wargear, HF cost more and that Penitent engine cost a little more (I dunno what is the point cost for a vanilla Dakka predator ?) And no "speed" upgrade for immolators to replicate their old rule :s

Celtic Strike wrote:If they did get two their points would be higher and then we would be even more upset.

There is no direct causal link between effectiveness (or characterfulness) and cost. Yes, an incompetent writer will increase points costs without properly considering whether that increase is justified, but we are hypothesising a reality where the authors of this WDex are not incompetent, who make the Sisters' rules work in a characterful manner and don't arbitrarily increase points costs just because they think that's what is required of them.

I just reread my old Chapter Approved Codex for Sisters. WOW we had it good back then when Faith was first introduced.

Memory lane trip...........

Needed to buy a preacher to make units faithfull.
Spirit of the Martyr was feel no pain basicly.
Divine Guidance was similar.
The passion was fleet plus +2 intiatve and +1 attack. Wowzers.
Light of the Emperor was ATSNNF.
Faith only needed a LD check to work.

Celestian were Int 4 and holy hatred gave +1 attack on charge. They were 1 point more than a current basic sister.
Sister's were one point cheaper than now.

I want my old Chapter Approved codex back. Oh and Redemptionists were troops and were awesome in hand to hand, like kill any unit in the game good.

Less than week before we can find out for ourselves for certain, but this will not surprise me at all. This codex was not about keeping Sisters competitive, it was to let folks know they aren't forgotten.

Pretty sure both the WoC and BA WD dex's wheren't too great. Hopefully this will all be worth it when the actual dex appears, probably next year.


On a side note, I'm actually more interested to see what's listed on the 'next month' page. Hopefully it'll be Necrons, the more time I have to paint them for my Sons Christmas prezzie the better.

it was to let folks know they aren't forgotten.

I agree with you. But I think there is better way to do that efficiently

Wow... So that wasn't an earthquake we got hit by yesterday, it was because the collective community of Sisters' players suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.

That or Melissia read the thread...

It'll be interesting to see the apologists spin this one, assuming of course, it's accurate...

Valete,

JohnS

Yeah...GW doesn't want to sell Sisters models, apparently. Or at least I know I'm not in a big hurry to buy them if what we're hearing is true.

Guess they're going to wait and try to push sales when the real book comes out and they actually have some plastic kits to go with it.

Man, that French site locks up its price discussions really quickly. They were only up for a few hours before the mods took off the French pricings

Don't worry. I memorised everything.

Dominions cost the same amount as 7 Rhinos + a Land Raider divided by the square root of the distance between Mars and Jupiter multiplied by the cube root of Draigo.

NO! They changed it! Now it sucks!

AlexHolker wrote:The thing is, it shouldn't be in line with the Grey Knights psychic powers. Different powers coming from different sources should work differently.

Adding a million different subsystems to accomplish essentially the same thing, in the name of verisimilitude, is idiotic game design.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't worry. I memorised everything.

Dominions cost the same amount as 7 Rhinos + a Land Raider divided by the square root of the distance between Mars and Jupiter multiplied by the cube root of Draigo.

Dude, I'm pretty sure you're like 5-10 points off.

Brother SRM wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't worry. I memorised everything.

Dominions cost the same amount as 7 Rhinos + a Land Raider divided by the square root of the distance between Mars and Jupiter multiplied by the cube root of Draigo.

Dude, I'm pretty sure you're like 5-10 points off.

Did you carry the two? I made that mistake at first. Also, don't forget that Draigo ignores all rules of Euclydian geometry.

Haha so the people that thought it was going to be a horde army of 3+ save models were way off. Once again GW overcosts a useless 6++ save. I wonder if people are happy now they get frag and krak grenades for their units that don't assault?

So for 4 extra points, you get +1 WS, +1 S, +1T, +1I, free weapon options and ATSKNF which doesn't even take into context the other superior slot choices the Space Marine army has access to. In return you get a 6++ save and unreliable faith powers that aren't even great when they work. At least this list should prove that Cruddance is without a doubt the worst designer in the company. I really thought this list was going to be a middling, get you by affair with no real character but serviceable. If these French leaks are real it's not only a hilarious nerf to an already underplayed army but an obvious indication that they didn't listen to 10 YEARS of fans complaints in the slightest (Penitent Engines with rage being expensive and in the same exact slot as before).

This list has shown me that I should have absolutely no confidence that the actually Sisters codex won't be a huge mess. I hope people don't get stars in their eyes about that one like this. Beware "Finally getting some love" when the company actively hates your army.

I'm not surprised regular SoB went up in price. The concensus seemed to be they were underpriced... not by much, but still underpriced. Yes GW nerfed faith system, but that an army rule that was largely ignored in pricing the basic SoB. Its a limitation of the rules that the point values are whole numbers only... abstractly I think of it like this... the previous edition of SoB were worth 12.45pts and thus rounded down... now they're worth 12.55pts and end up getting rounded up. Between now and an actual book release, its upto GW to close the gap and make SoB worth whatever higher point value they are now.

Remember overall though you used to have to purchase a VSS for a unit at 14 points. This made a 10 man SoB unit effectively 124 points.

Right now they come in at 120 points so that is technically a 4 point decrease. Weapon prices will be in there somewhere too, and a 18 point (smoke should be included) drop in Rhino prices means a mechanized squad costs 22 points less.

What they lost in 'utility' overall from Faith changes not withstanding of course. I do not think anyone really counts Frags/Kraks/Pistols as being a significant upgrade to the unit nor the 6++.

The Seraphim are prices pretty well IMO, the Celestians at this price may almost be unusable. Conspicuously absent are Dominions.

What is more disappointing to me is if the Force Org is as rumored (SoB only troop choice, PE are HS, Celestians are Elites).

Edit: The real slap in the face is that I have been buying metal SoB models for the last 4 years. I was amazed when I started Daemons how incredibly cheap they are.

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:Looks like some are getting looks of it in France.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2011/08/new-sisters-of-battle-white-dwarf.html

Now I am a little sad. I was hoping for a point decrease or atleast stay the same....... /cry

So......less flexible, less powerful, same cost.......F you GW. Thanks for nothing. Glad I'm playing Hordes/warmachine now. At least I know my time and money invested will not be wasted like with you.

When is the WD with this due out State-side?

Celtic Strike wrote:I don't think the infernus pistols will cost that much, they may cost that much for a pair. Since they cost 10 in the Blood angels codex, I can see 25 for a twin-linked or double tapping pair.

Sisters costing 12 makes sense.

Space marines used to cost 15, now they cost 16 but they got pistol, frag and krak grenades. That's 4 pts worth of equipment for one point. Plus a Rhino drop.

Sisters are getting the same equipment, losing the 5+ save against psychic powers but gaining a 6+ invulnerable. That's a trade I'd make.

If thats a trade you would make, I'm pretty sure you never played sisters of battle ever. When sisters went up from 10 to 11 pts, they gained BS 4 and useful acts- plus 5+ vs pshyics powers.

No, frag, krak and pistols are NOT worth anothe rpoint. Not with nerfed acts and a useless 6+ invulnerable save. Hell no.

calypso2ts wrote:Remember overall though you used to have to purchase a VSS for a unit at 14 points. This made a 10 man SoB unit effectively 124 points.

Right now they come in at 120 points so that is technically a 4 point decrease. Weapon prices will be in there somewhere too, and a 18 point (smoke should be included) drop in Rhino prices means a mechanized squad costs 22 points less.

What they lost in 'utility' overall from Faith changes not withstanding of course. I do not think anyone really counts Frags/Kraks/Pistols as being a significant upgrade to the unit nor the 6++.

The Seraphim are prices pretty well IMO, the Celestians at this price may almost be unusable. Conspicuously absent are Dominions.

What is more disappointing to me is if the Force Org is as rumored (SoB only troop choice, PE are HS, Celestians are Elites).

Edit: The real slap in the face is that I have been buying metal SoB models for the last 4 years. I was amazed when I started Daemons how incredibly cheap they are.

Apparently the full squad (9+vet) is bought at 125 so the squad is 1 point more expensive.

People were hoping that in exchange for the nerfs we would get a more well thought out force org at the very least. This list is the worst combination of lazy (not shifting around ANYTHING to a different slot, screwing up stats on an identical model in anther army), boneheaded decisions (leaving bad rage rules, giving cc support to units that don't need it, 6++ save) and outright terrible game design (including a rule that doesn't scale for points value of battle with no way to increase it). Honestly there is nothing positive about this unless you really wanted to field Saint Celestine. The only thing I'm unsure of is if GW will be surprised at the negative backlash they will receive and if they will care.

I don't know how people are even including Faith in the points cost of these models when it will statistically not work very often. You will get 3.5 points a turn and on average will get these to work on a 50% success rate (vet sister but no casualties) or a 66% (vet and casualties). So MAYBE 2 succesful acts a turn and it's incredibly erratic which ones will work and they aren't even usable outside your own turn. WOW what a value!!

Seriously just squat the army and be done with it. I feel like I got ripped off for the price of a White Dwarf by supporting this useless codex.

grizgrin wrote:When is the WD with this due out State-side?

This Saturday I believe. The 27th.

Sorry I was wrong about Pertinent Engines being the same cost; they are apparently more expensive than before.

This list is impressive in that it's terrible in ways I could never have predicted.

Don't forget we lost our access to psychic hoods and the army wide 5+ save against psychic powers when you work out how much we are getting for 1 point more a model.

Ixquic wrote:Seriously just squat the army and be done with it. I feel like I got ripped off for the price of a White Dwarf by supporting this useless codex.

And this is one reason GW stopped doing these... at best with WD's publication cycle this codex is 2-3 months old before we get to look at it. This means what we're seeing is old, and it is at best 9 or more months of developement out from an actual book. That makes it a very early draft.

People want a new codex and they want GW to be more open about their development... this is GW being more open with development of the new codex, but its incomplete. Its silly to imagine something this far away from an actually being published in book form would be have matured more than this.

Your sentiments underscore why GW stopped doing these WD rules, people want them, until they have them, and then they don't.

Avariel wrote:Need to actually see the pages for myself before I pass judgment. I can't imagine Sisters costing more then they did in the old codex. The old kitted out 10 Sisters squads in Rhinos cost about the same as a Tactical Squad in a Rhino which was ridiculous but part of it was the over costed by 15 points Rhino but still.

Edit: My reply to this post was a comparison to Space Marine Tactical Squad points costs increases, but after reading the thread, I feel silly for typing it. Now I am curling up and hugging an imaginary Battle Sister plush toy - a real one would be better of course - and telling myself it's going to be okay.

Ixquic wrote:Sorry I was wrong about Pertinent Engines being the same cost; they are apparently more expensive than before.

This list is impressive in that it's terrible in ways I could never have predicted.

Don't forget we lost our access to psychic hoods and the army wide 5+ save against psychic powers when you work out how much we are getting for 1 point more a model.

There is that, I suppose...

aka_mythos wrote:

Ixquic wrote:Seriously just squat the army and be done with it. I feel like I got ripped off for the price of a White Dwarf by supporting this useless codex.

And this is one reason GW stopped doing these... at best with WD's publication cycle this codex is 2-3 months old before we get to look at it. This means what we're seeing is old, and it is at best 9 or more months of developement out from an actual book. That makes it a very early draft.

People want a new codex and they want GW to be more open about their development... this is GW being more open with development of the new codex, but its incomplete. Its silly to imagine something this far away from an actually being published in book form would be have matured more than this.

Your sentiments underscore why GW stopped doing these WD rules, people want them, until they have them, and then they don't.

Maybe they shouldn't do these at all then if what we get is a poorly thought out and un-playtested mess? I'm not going to be grateful that my army is unplayable for some undefined time until the new book comes out when they won't even tell us when and if that is happening.

Nothing about this list shows that they have any clue about how the army works or any future plans for what the eventual book will be like (other than bad). If GW really cared about "being more open with development" they would have faqed the Witch Hunters book to no longer include allies or Inquisitors and to fix Rhinos so they were current (much like how they fixed Dark Angels with 3++ Storm Shields and better Cyclone Missile Launchers) and then release test lists online while they were designing the new book. Instead they make the old book illegal and literally nerf every aspect of the army except for stupid stuff like frag grenades and +1 attack on a unit with no power attacks, S3 and I3.

Btw people on Warseer are listing new great leaks. Laudhailer gives a free faith point on a roll of a 6 when you use a faith power (so another stupid 6+ roll that will never happen with any regularity). The cannoness is more expensive, has no access to Blessed Weapons and can't use a jump pack. So yeah if this is the future of White Dwarf codexes they can go feth themselves. They didn't even move around any force org slots so what possible direction for the army are you getting? Why should I want them to continue with this?

Well, I was hoping for a cost reduction. This 'codex' is DOA.

Seriously, 12 points, when a Grey Hunter is 15, indicates just how out-of-touch with the game and how inept the designers really are.