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I really think you're misunderstanding what Malign Sorcery is. It doesn't sound to me like additional rules so much as an elaboration on the core rules. Again, I think you're overemphasizing the use of the word "expansion". In the Core Rules preview, they refer to the Core Rule book as an expansion on how you play the game. You're thinking of an expansion in terms of how the term is used in a videogame. GW seems to be using it to including anything outside the 10-page rules. This is the direction I am approaching the discussion from. I may be wrong, and Endless Spells aren't in the Core Rulebook, but we've seen previews of how they interact with the double turn, so I'm fairly confident they're just as much a part of the core rules. That's the reason for my comparison. If you ask for a pickup game using the Match Play rules, in my opinion, anything with a Match Play profile is part of those rules, and saying "no Endless Spells" is as arbitrary as saying "no Harbingers". I understand if you don't want to use the Malign Portents rules or the extra artifacts, etc. in Malign Sorcery, but you can pull up the warscroll for a Darkoath Warqueen or a Flaming Skull as easily as I can.

EnTyme I think you've got it wrong.

I'm not comparing it to a computer game at all either. The Malign Sorcery is an addition to the core game rules of magic. If it was "core" then those magical rules would be inside the main rule book - same way that your core army at release is in the Battletome all in one go.

Malign is a separate layer of spells and magic that is most certainly designed to work with the core rules (as the example you show reveals) and its very probable and likely that GW expects it to become pretty much the default state for Age of Sigmar to include it. And its very likely that, unless its horrifically balanced, it will probably become the default so that, after a while, most areas it will be the basic type of Age of Sigmar played.


That doesn't mean its not an expansion of the core game rules and mechanics. It just means that its intended to be the most popular default.



That's not trying to take anything away or redefine what the game is. It's purely looking at the Core game being everything withing the Core Rule Book. Malign bolts right onto that and I really honestly do hope it becomes the standard. It's clear GW want it to be which is why they've clearly priced it at a very affordable (for this hobby) entry price. GW want everyone to pick it up and use it; whilst at the same time have made it an expansion. A smart move because if it failed or proved unpopular or was just never taken up then it can be dropped with no harm to the core rules of the game.

And if it proves popular it just gets rolled into the core of the game next edition without any problems.

Again, people keep comparing this to things like Cities of Death and Apocalypse. Those are supplemental rules meant to add layers to the game. Endless Spells have been mentioned as an attempt to discourage players from taking a double turn. This makes them a direct attempt to balance a core mechanic. That is what I don't think people are understanding. This is not "If you like Age of Sigmar, but are looking for ways to change up the game, try this!". This is "If you are playing Age of Sigmar, here is another option for things to add to your army list. They also make the decision of taking a double turn a little less automatic."

I see absolutely no difference in the purpose of Malign Sorcery versus Battletome: Stormcast Eternals except you can add the models and artifacts to any army as opposed to Stormcast Eternals who can only be used by Order armies.

GW literally stated it's an expansion--saying otherwise is willfully obtuse at best.


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Also:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

auticus wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

On a side note, I'm still not sure what part of the Endless Spells people are considering to be "optional". You pay points for the spell. You use the spell.

Much like forgeworld being optional to a lot of people. You pay points for forgeworld models too, but some people won't let you use it in games. Or 40k apocalypse when it was optional. You paid points for super heavies but it was optional.

People see endless spells as equally optional. A lot of people don't want to buy additional rules period, and at the same time don't want their opponent to do so either to have "an advantage". So basically its "play AOS, but no endless spells". If tournaments allow Endless Spells, they won't have much footing to stand on and will go along with it because they'll have to if they want to play in tournaments. If tournaments ban endless spells... it'll be something people fight over in forums for the next several years.

I view that mentality the same way I do people who say "Let's play AoS, but no objectives". You're not playing AoS. You're rolling dice with AoS models on the table. This type of gameplay is why people still claim AoS devolves into a mass of bodies in the middle of the table. It only does that because people strip out the rules that discourage it. I could see people not wanting to use the extra artifacts and things like that, but the Endless Spells are no different to any other unit whose kit you by in my mind. It doesn't give you any more of an "advantage" than fielding a Lord of Khorne. If you have the model and you pay the points, you have access to the warscroll.

You're basically saying they are having fun the wrong way. There isn't a wrong or right way to play AoS; it's a game!

A great irony is how many people will bemoan that some take the game too seriously or are too hostile towards a certain play style... While being hostile towards certain play styles themselves.

Or to put it in the most simple terms: if you're going to tell people they're playing things wrong, you are being tfg.

 EnTyme wrote:
Again, people keep comparing this to things like Cities of Death and Apocalypse. Those are supplemental rules meant to add layers to the game. Endless Spells have been mentioned as an attempt to discourage players from taking a double turn. This makes them a direct attempt to balance a core mechanic. That is what I don't think people are understanding. This is not "If you like Age of Sigmar, but are looking for ways to change up the game, try this!". This is "If you are playing Age of Sigmar, here is another option for things to add to your army list. They also make the decision of taking a double turn a little less automatic."

I see absolutely no difference in the purpose of Malign Sorcery versus Battletome: Stormcast Eternals except you can add the models and artifacts to any army as opposed to Stormcast Eternals who can only be used by Order armies.

Again I say if they were as core as you say why aren't they inside the Big Rule Book? Why have their rules bundled in a totally separate package? Sure a bundle of all the spells in one box is neat, but if they were CORE they'd be in the single main rule book along with the rest of the games core rules.

That they are not and instead are self contained within a totally separate product containing both rules and models suggests to me that it is an expansion.



Again its clear that GW intends and expects the majority of players to use these spells; but they've also made it so that their inclusion is optional not mandatory within the core rules of the game.

*edit* Nevermind. We'll see in two weeks. I just don't get why anyone is talking about restricting rules before we even know what those rules are. It's the very definition of arbitrary.

We'll probably find out sooner - since shipments will head out and books will end up being opened in advance of the launch date so info will leak out.

Yeah, we'll probably start seeing rules leaks later this week. By next weekend, the 10-page core rules will probably be viewable in at least three languages.

The internet celebrities already have their preorder window now and should be getting their rulebook and boxes etc this weekend so you will definitely know by this weekend whats up. (edit: or if they have to wait 2 weeks like the rest of us then they'll get it in the mail by next friday or so)

auticus wrote:
The internet celebrities already have their preorder window now and should be getting their rulebook and boxes etc this weekend so you will definitely know by this weekend whats up. (edit: or if they have to wait 2 weeks like the rest of us then they'll get it in the mail by next friday or so)

Reviewers usually don't post their reviews until the product goes on pre-order (if they want to keep getting the product to review). With a two week pre-order I'm not sure what GW's policy is due to how rare a two week pre-order is.

Product goes on pre order for the rest of the unwashed masses this saturday and the celebs will have theirs either this weekend or next, so they should be free to post their comments I would think.

I haven't been paying attention as I use to because of my depression. So I can be totally off here. I am not liking what I am reading. I am not saying anyone is wrong, but all I am seeing right now is what happened in 40K 6th edition.

That is "let's have a game of 40K, but you can't have Unbound, or super heavies or what not" and it will divide the community.

I was hoping AoS2.0 would embrace the community as a whole and not divide it. Sadly GW is trying to appease all parties, but it seems the community itself is going to be the reason why we are so divided. I hope I am wrong but I am not like what I am reading. Not just here on Dakka but on a few forums.

The community is always why we are divided.

GW is giving us all kinds of tools to use. The tournament crowd however often drives what is used "standard". Whether or not you will care about that will depend on if your primary games are public pick up style games.

For those that play with clubs or their own friends where they don't care about what's "standard" you will have an amazing toolbox to create some fun memories with.

Found the following on /tg/. Hopefully better eyes than mine can make out the details...

I see the problem being that people have such an issue with how others want to play. If some one else wants to play a different way, big deal. If it means you can't play the way you want because the rest of your community wants to play a different way then, yeah, that sucks. You can adapt, move on, or stay upset about it. You can advocate your way to the community and if you make a good point maybe they'll see something in it. Maybe you need to move on to another game, another community, or make your own. Or you can take what starts as legitimate frustration and drag it out into something that makes you miserable for no benefit to anyone.


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 Ghaz wrote:
Found the following on /tg/. Hopefully better eyes than mine can make out the details...

Spoiler:

Paraphrasing:

Casting value of 6, wizards with 9+ wounds, are a unit of multiple models, or already on a vortex can't cast it.

Set up within 1" of the caster, more than 3" from enemy models, then put the caster on top.

While it's on the battlefield that caster & vortex are a single model from the caster's army, treated as an enemy model by the opponent.

Wizard on a vortex can cast an extra spell each hero phase (including the phase in which you summoned it) and add 6" to the range. +1 to save rolls for being on vortex (note this is NOT listed as cover, so an effect which grants cover (idoneth) would stack).

Wizard on top can automatically dispel the vortex, but it eats the extra spell "and still counts as the single attempt they can make to dispel an endless spell this hero phase" (quoted this since afaik new info on endless dispels)

If the wizard dies the vortex poofs.

If dispelled and the wizard on top is alive set the wizard up wholly within 6" and more then 3" then remove the vortex, if you can't set him up he dies.


So this means the enemy can charge the vortex and swing at it in melee as if it were the wizard; that makes it pretty risky for a 32mm guy who previously the enemy couldn't get many dudes in melee range of due to base size. Also means melee armies aren't shafted by the thing. It also means that swapping positions with the vortex wizard moves the whole vortex too since they are a single model.

Wear are you seeing that the enemy can target the Vortex in melee as if it were the Wizard? I don't see that in the rules. Looks to me like the best thing to do is surround the Vortex with a decent-sized unit and then have another wizard dispell it. The enemy can't place the Wizard, and so the Wizard dies. Also, it just seems wrong to see a Stormcast riding atop a giant emblem of Chaos.

"The caster and the Balewind Vortex are treated as a single model from the caster's that uses the caster's warscroll...Its is treated as an enemy model by the opposing player's army"

So either it functions like an enemy, using whichever warscroll summoned it up in the first place; allowing the normal interactions between enemy models with profiles.

Or it doesn't?

Yep, before it had explicit rules that prevented you from targeting it in combat. Those explicit rules are no longer there. It is just an enemy model now. One that can be wailed on.

Ah. Didn't read that line.

 Overread wrote:
Again I say if they were as core as you say why aren't they inside the Big Rule Book? Why have their rules bundled in a totally separate package? Sure a bundle of all the spells in one box is neat, but if they were CORE they'd be in the single main rule book along with the rest of the games core rules.

That they are not and instead are self contained within a totally separate product containing both rules and models suggests to me that it is an expansion.

Technically, the 16 page pamphlet is the CORE rulebook, with the Big Rule Book and everything in it (including matched play) is an expansion. I mean, GW has gone out of their way to say that matched play is just one way to play out of many. What is core and what is an expansion when everything is optional?

AoS is a big sandbox and GW gives you lots of suggestions about how to play in it, but they are just suggestions. There's not one right way to sandbox.

Davor wrote:
I haven't been paying attention as I use to because of my depression. So I can be totally off here. I am not liking what I am reading. I am not saying anyone is wrong, but all I am seeing right now is what happened in 40K 6th edition.

That is "let's have a game of 40K, but you can't have Unbound, or super heavies or what not" and it will divide the community.

I was hoping AoS2.0 would embrace the community as a whole and not divide it. Sadly GW is trying to appease all parties, but it seems the community itself is going to be the reason why we are so divided. I hope I am wrong but I am not like what I am reading. Not just here on Dakka but on a few forums.

Honestly man i wouldn't worry about it.

Sometimes this place is a negative feedback echo chamber and it gets in the way of enjoying the hobby.

I think we'll probably mostly enjoy the rules in 2.0. This seems like a logical upgrade from 1.0 in a lot of ways.

Wait... if the core rulebook has matched play, what does the General's handbook have?

This sounds like it's going to be a really expensive edition switch.

 Fafnir wrote:
Wait... if the core rulebook has matched play, what does the General's handbook have?

This sounds like it's going to be a really expensive edition switch.

Points values, new scenarios, etc.

Core Book has the 'main rules' for the various things, but it wasn't ever going to have the point values.

The core book has the basic rules for the 3 ways to play the same way the 40k core book did for 8th edition. The GHB is going to be Match Play profiles, extra scenarios, allegiance abilities and artifacts for non-battletome armies, probably Path to Glory rules, etc. They want to keep point in the GHB because that is what players are used to, and that is where they plan to keep points changes in the future. People will claim it's a cash grab (and I'm sure the fact you have to pay an extra $35 isn't unintentional), but once you establish a marketing strategy, you generally want to stick to it.

The celebs and others are now getting their stuff. Pictures of the models and what not are starting to show up.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/06/12/warhammer-live-soul-wars-first-blood/

First game using the new rules on GW's Twitch channel tomorrow at 6:00 pm BST/1:00 pm EST.

Meanwhile, Design Insights: The Nighthaunt posted on Warhammer Community. No big shock, but the Cairn Wraith and Tomb Banshee were the inspiration for the new models.

 EnTyme wrote:
The core book has the basic rules for the 3 ways to play the same way the 40k core book did for 8th edition. The GHB is going to be Match Play profiles, extra scenarios, allegiance abilities and artifacts for non-battletome armies, probably Path to Glory rules, etc. They want to keep point in the GHB because that is what players are used to, and that is where they plan to keep points changes in the future. People will claim it's a cash grab (and I'm sure the fact you have to pay an extra $35 isn't unintentional), but once you establish a marketing strategy, you generally want to stick to it.

This way they can keep updating the GHB every year rather than put out a new core rulebook every year. It's actually a lot cheaper for us players in the long run.

Exactly.

auticus wrote:
The celebs and others are now getting their stuff. Pictures of the models and what not are starting to show up.

War of Sigmar confirms that their NDA is lifted on the 14th (this Thursday) at 5:00 pm BST


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From /tg/, pics of some of the new sprues...



And from ebay, the Guardian of Souls sprue...

So...Balewind was previously awesome. 100pts to double spell ranges, be untargetable in CC (due to range restrictions)...pracically an auto-include. But limiting the range boost AND making it punchable? Feels like they went TOO far in neutering it (if this is true, I realize the source is semi-dubious). If it costs the same or more, I see it hitting the table 1/10th the amount it currently does. At best.