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Frangible 5.56 penetrates much less than common handgun rounds. Even the non-frangible stuff was deviating and breaking apart after hitting 4 interior walls. Reports of bullets vs. windows also suggest that pistol rounds penetrate much better (i.e., stay intact better).
See the post here for water penetration at the bottom of the thread:
Handgun rounds just tend to stay together better than rifle rounds, which accounts for better penetration. The faster the thing breaks apart, the faster it loses velocity and the less it penetrates. If we're talking about a steel helmet then obviously 5.56 does a better job at penetrating.
For a discussion of post-wall wounding potential, see here:
Even the relatively heavy 75 grain BTHP loses most of its mass in the first ~ 7" of tissue. The part of the bullet that actually penetrated 12" in that photo is probably 20 grains and would be unlikely to cause a serious injury in the event of overpenetration. Meanwhile, check out the recoverable mass of these handgun rounds:
That's on bare gelatin so you're more likely to get expansion...so best case scenario.
So are we saying then that, in actuality a shotgun or pistol carbine are better for short range fun?
Quite the opposite actually - 5.56 rifles do more tissue damage at a lower risk of overpenetration. A pistol is about the worst thing you can use, having the highest risk for overpenetration and the weakest permanent cavity. Buckshot is OK in terms of terminal ballistics but the platforms are poor (slow followup shots, very low magazine capacity, typically pump action or less reliable semi autos) and it still overpenetrates. It also lacks precision. Slugs have the worst to offer in terms of overpenetration, and the permanent cavity actually isn't all that impressive considering the absurd recoil.
Rifles > shotguns > handguns for pretty much all purposes. The only factor real tradeoff you should contemplate is for concealment.
sorry having difficulty opening things. So what is the permanent cavity of a 5.56 vs. 9mm?
9mm gets around .5" diameter in a best case scenario (best ammunition, expansion, etc)
M193 (which is pretty much the run of the mill 5.56) is producing a permanent wound cavity around 2.75" and this cavity is almost 6" long.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Decided to try appendix carry. It's actually pretty good! Holster is a Bladetech, mag pouch is a Blackhawk IWB. Light clips onto the mag pouch perfectly. Obviously my shirt covers this normally to cover it, but it hides very well with a light shirt.
Used to appendix carry a 1911, but bending forward was a pain, switched to strong side carrying it, but the weight by the end of the day was killing my hips. I now strong side carry a Glock 26. Conceals surprisingly well.
As to permanent wound cavity, the data correlates to a rifle round expending most of its energy in a soft target as opposed to a pistol driving its way through.
Frazzled wrote: Thanks for the info.
How do you like appendix carry to draw from? It seems pretty difficult.
No problem Frazz!
I actually find it's easier to draw from. Less possibility of your shirt getting in the way of things since you're trying to expose something in front of you rather than something behind you. I find that drawing from 4 or 5 o'clock stresses my shoulder a little bit whereas appendix it's right there.
I haven't timed it but I expect that I'd cut or better my strong side draw time. In a vehicle it's MUCH faster since you don't have to shift funny or unbuckle the seat belt.
If you can get past the fact that you're muzzling your cocknballs and your femoral artery, it's pretty good in terms of concealment and draw time.
To put it nicely, if you ND while drawing or holstering AIWB you're probably going to end up either dead, or a eunuch. If you ND strong side, a la Tex Grebner, as long as your training kicks in and you call your parents, your odds of you (and your manparts) surviving are much better. Note that it is still VERY possible to ND yourself right in the pelvis while working strong side and there are lots of important arteries in there that will guarantee you death in minutes even if inflicted on an operating table.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/28 21:59:23
Frazzled wrote: Thanks for the info.
How do you like appendix carry to draw from? It seems pretty difficult.
No problem Frazz!
I actually find it's easier to draw from. Less possibility of your shirt getting in the way of things since you're trying to expose something in front of you rather than something behind you. I find that drawing from 4 or 5 o'clock stresses my shoulder a little bit whereas appendix it's right there.
I haven't timed it but I expect that I'd cut or better my strong side draw time. In a vehicle it's MUCH faster since you don't have to shift funny or unbuckle the seat belt.
If you can get past the fact that you're muzzling your cocknballs and your femoral artery, it's pretty good in terms of concealment and draw time.
To put it nicely, if you ND while drawing or holstering AIWB you're probably going to end up either dead, or a eunuch. If you ND strong side, a la Tex Grebner, as long as your training kicks in and you call your parents, your odds of you (and your manparts) surviving are much better. Note that it is still VERY possible to ND yourself right in the pelvis while working strong side and there are lots of important arteries in there that will guarantee you death in minutes even if inflicted on an operating table.
This is where muscle memory and training are important. Finger off trigger until you are ready to shoot, and pistol angled away from you as you draw and holster.
What I dont understand is holstering in the small of your back. The DUMBEST place to carry a weapon, especially if you fall backwards. You can do some serious damage to your back this way.
Just as important as trigger control, though, don't point your firearm at anything you don't want to shoot. You don't want to shoot yourself in the groin, so don't point it at your groin. Redundancy is the reason why there are multiple weapon safety rules. Any one will keep you safe 99.9% of the time, but for the other 0.1% you want to have a backup rather than a severed femoral artery.
I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.
DarkLink wrote: Just as important as trigger control, though, don't point your firearm at anything you don't want to shoot. You don't want to shoot yourself in the groin, so don't point it at your groin. Redundancy is the reason why there are multiple weapon safety rules. Any one will keep you safe 99.9% of the time, but for the other 0.1% you want to have a backup rather than a severed femoral artery.
Unfortunately appendix carry has you violating one rule every time you sit down, and half of the time while standing as well.
DarkLink wrote: Just as important as trigger control, though, don't point your firearm at anything you don't want to shoot. You don't want to shoot yourself in the groin, so don't point it at your groin. Redundancy is the reason why there are multiple weapon safety rules. Any one will keep you safe 99.9% of the time, but for the other 0.1% you want to have a backup rather than a severed femoral artery.
Unfortunately appendix carry has you violating one rule every time you sit down, and half of the time while standing as well.
This is why I really don't like the concept. Having a loaded gun pointed at a major artery just seems like a bad idea.
This is why I have a .380. It's small enough to not need a holster - just goes into my pocket or sits in my glove compartment. Usually I put it in my jacket - pretty comfortable and safe. If it's not enough dakka then you are probably better off just running anyways.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: This is why I have a .380. It's small enough to not need a holster - just goes into my pocket or sits in my glove compartment. Usually I put it in my jacket - pretty comfortable and safe. If it's not enough dakka then you are probably better off just running anyways.
No holster AT ALL?
2 big reasons you should have a holster:
1. It covers your trigger, therefore it goes a LONG way to helping avoid negligent discharges.
2. It orients the gun the same way every time you carry. This helps you develop the muscle memory necessary for drawing quickly under stress. It is especially crucial for pocket carry as it means you're not fumbling around trying to grab your pistol because it shifted in your pocket. Fumbling can possibly mean a higher chance of actuating the trigger prematurely.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/29 13:01:28
Xenomancers wrote: This is why I have a .380. It's small enough to not need a holster - just goes into my pocket or sits in my glove compartment. Usually I put it in my jacket - pretty comfortable and safe. If it's not enough dakka then you are probably better off just running anyways.
Do you have a pocket holster (that sounds wrong doesn't it...)? He has a point, you need a trigger guard even if you have an active safety.
The one I like for little .380s is the holster that looks like a cellphone carrier. Thats awesome.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Xenomancers wrote: This is why I have a .380. It's small enough to not need a holster - just goes into my pocket or sits in my glove compartment. Usually I put it in my jacket - pretty comfortable and safe. If it's not enough dakka then you are probably better off just running anyways.
No holster AT ALL?
2 big reasons you should have a holster:
1. It covers your trigger, therefore it goes a LONG way to helping avoid negligent discharges.
2. It orients the gun the same way every time you carry. This helps you develop the muscle memory necessary for drawing quickly under stress. It is especially crucial for pocket carry as it means you're not fumbling around trying to grab your pistol because it shifted in your pocket. Fumbling can possibly mean a higher chance of actuating the trigger prematurely.
Thanks for raising that concern.
I have an alarming number of first time customers buying pocket pistols who hadnt considered a holster for their pocket pistols, until we demonstrate how easy it is (despite some having a long double action type trigger) for a foreign object (coin, keys, rolled up currency etc) to actuate the trigger.
DarkLink wrote: Just as important as trigger control, though, don't point your firearm at anything you don't want to shoot. You don't want to shoot yourself in the groin, so don't point it at your groin. Redundancy is the reason why there are multiple weapon safety rules. Any one will keep you safe 99.9% of the time, but for the other 0.1% you want to have a backup rather than a severed femoral artery.
Unfortunately appendix carry has you violating one rule every time you sit down, and half of the time while standing as well.
This is why I really don't like the concept. Having a loaded gun pointed at a major artery just seems like a bad idea.
I've never been concerned by it. AIWB is a comfortable carry position, easy to conceal and easy and quick to draw from. A loaded holstered pistol isn't any more likely to go off because it's in front of my appendix instead of being against my hip or my lower back. If you're using a decent holster and you have the safety engaged you shouldn't be worried. My EDC is the only pistol I own with a thumb safety specifically so I have peace of mind carrying it. If you don't trust your holster and/or the safety then you shouldn't be carrying the pistol at all.
Byte wrote: Somehow I feel this is the kind of thread that gets monitored by the feds...
Why is that?
Its literally in the title of the thread man. That's why.
IMHO.
It's not like there aren't literally millions of other Americans who have these exact same conversations...
I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.
.22. Pistol - My grandpa's old gun, for fun
.22 rifle - Great-great Grandpas gun, passes down the family
20 guage Shotgun - Same as .22 rilfe, though older
m1 carbine - personal gun, part of my kit
sks - for fun
there is more, but they are with my father.
I'll never be able to repay CA for making GW realize that The Old World was a cash cow, left to die in a field.
I strong side carry a 1911 at the 4 O'Clock position with the pistol canted forward when I'm carrying I admit I'm a bad gun nut and haven't gotten my CO carry permit yet. Mostly money concerns.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
If your clean your clean, but you never know who posing as who on these Internet's and that is the issue.
You mean I might not be posting as me?
Dreadclaw69... is that really you?
"posing" not "posting", posing as in acting or pretending, to represent oneself falsely; pretend to be other than what one is: conmen posing as police officers.
"posing" not "posting", posing as in acting or pretending, to represent oneself falsely; pretend to be other than what one is: conmen posing as police officers.
OK class is over...
Unsubscribed.
Posting. Not posing. As in posting a comment on Dakka.
Someday I’ll move on from testing micro-compact .380 pocket pistols, but every once in a while a round comes along that just warrants taking another look. In this case, DoubleTap sent me some of their new 95 grain Controlled Expansion .380 ammo. What stands out to me is that Mike McNett (owner of DoubleTap) is the designer of this bullet, designed specifically to get the bullet to penetrate deeply from a .380. Yes, this bullet was designed specifically to meet the FBI penetration standards through gel (and, therefore, more likely to be effective against a human attacker). Well, heck, this I gotta test . . .
Backstory: I’ve tested a lot of .380 ammo, from a pocket pistol. Nearly all of it under-penetrates (i.e., won’t reach 12″ through gel, at least not consistently). I found one type of hollow point bullet that would fairly consistently reach that depth, the Hornady XTP, but just about all the others fell short. So if DoubleTap has a bullet specifically engineered to reach that far or further — and especially if it’ll do so from a pocket pistol — well, that’d be big news as far as I’m concerned.
First thing I can say about the DoubleTap round: recoil is stout and the velocity is fast. Considering I was using a 2.8″-barrel pocket pistol, the typical velocity of most defensive ammo on the market seems to be about 800 to 900 fps with a 90-grain bullet. Heavier bullets go slower; the 95-grain PMC Starfire was 788 fps, for example. The previous “recoil king” was the Winchester PDX1, which pushes a 95-grain bullet at 901 fps.
But the DoubleTap is a lot more powerful; it pushes that 95-grain bullet at an average of 1,034 feet per second … from a .380. That’s 225 ft/lbs of energy, far higher than the 144 ft/lbs we see from normal defensive loads from this gun (90 grains at 850 fps). These rounds have a lot of recoil and they hit quite hard.
How is this possible? Is this actually “+P” ammo? No, it isn’t. I contacted DoubleTap directly and was assured that this is standard-pressure, fully SAAMI-compliant. Now, I do know that some other companies deliberately load their defensive ammo a little softer specifically to reduce recoil. HPR says that they made that choice on purpose with their .380 XTP load (which delivers 90 grains at 800 fps, for about 128 ft/lbs from this gun). DoubleTap must be loading this to the absolute limit of the caliber. It’s a heavier bullet traveling over 200 fps faster than some other companies’ offerings, and it shows in the recoil.
It also shows in the penetration. These things were insane for a .380. In the bare gel, the shortest bullet travel was 13.50″, and the furthest was 18.50″. Two came in at 16.50″. And that’s for fully-expanded bullets. .380’s just don’t do this … it’s really hard to find a .380 expanded hollowpoint that’ll even reach 12″. But these were fully-expanded bullets (an average size the same diameter as a .45 ACP) that also penetrated an overall average of 15.90.” That’s rather incredible.
The results through denim weren’t as encouraging. I ended up with six bullets total; four failed to expand and the two that did expand shed their jackets. Not a good sign. However, looking at it in context, two things jumped out at me.
The bullets that did expand still penetrated to a good depth (14″+) even though they shed their jackets, and they still did more damage than an FMJ would have. And one of the bullets that failed to expand looks like it must have tumbled violently because the wound track through the gel was massive, far more destructive than a typical FMJ wound. The other three acted more like FMJs, a smallish wound track and penetration in the 21″ to 23″ range.
So it’s not an ideal performer. But maybe with a revision, it could be. And even as-is, it still is a damaging round.
The bare gel performance was the best I’ve ever seen from a .380 hollowpoint, scoring a comparatively huge 35.9 on the MacPherson Wound Trauma Indicator scale (the next-highest scoring .380 hollowpoint was 28.3. That’s a huge difference). And the denim bullets, while not performing well at all by conventional standards, were no worse than FMJs, and in half the cases were quite a bit better.
I would definitely prefer better and more consistent results from the denim test. I wonder if a Version 2.0 of these bullets could be developed, somehow fine-tuning them for better denim performance, because if so, these could be the “HST” that we’ve always wished for for the .380 pocket pistols.
I still don’t know how they got that much power out of a SAAMI-compliant .380 ACP round. I’m not a reloader, so I don’t have the experience to judge it. But DoubleTap’s president assured me that they were SAAMI-compliant so I guess that there’s some magic going on. Maybe an extremely fast-burning powder, but at this point I’m just guessing.
I can say that I don’t recall there being any powder spray on the gel blocks, as is typical with .380 ammo testing from the short-barrel gun, so maybe the powder is all being burned in the 2.8″ barrel. I don’t know how they do it, but I do know the results are the hardest-hitting .380 hollowpoint I’ve tested, which leads to great penetration in bare gel, but also leads to substantial recoil.
If you can handle the recoil, you might like these rounds a lot. If you want a softer-shooting round, there are several choices that are loaded softer. I think it would be interesting to try these rounds from a GLOCK 42, which is the softest-shooting .380 pocket pistol I’ve used. Maybe it would tame some of the wrath and fury of these DoubleTap Controlled Expansion 95-grain bullets.
Xenomancers wrote: This is why I have a .380. It's small enough to not need a holster - just goes into my pocket or sits in my glove compartment. Usually I put it in my jacket - pretty comfortable and safe. If it's not enough dakka then you are probably better off just running anyways.
When I carry, pocket carry is my preferred method (usually 9mm or .380). I highly recommend you get a pocket holster. There are a multitude of benefits. Number one, as others have already mentioned, pocket carrying without one can be quite unsafe. You need the trigger to be completely covered. In addition, it allows for a much more consistent draw, and also helps conceal the outline if your gun prints. This allows you to pocket carry slightly bigger guns, as even if they print, if anyone notices (they won't), it just looks like you have a big phone or wallet in your pocket. With all the crap people carry in their pockets these days, having a pocket with a square-ish or rectangular outline isn't going to catch anybody's notice.
Xenomancers wrote: This is why I have a .380. It's small enough to not need a holster - just goes into my pocket or sits in my glove compartment. Usually I put it in my jacket - pretty comfortable and safe. If it's not enough dakka then you are probably better off just running anyways.
No holster AT ALL?
2 big reasons you should have a holster:
1. It covers your trigger, therefore it goes a LONG way to helping avoid negligent discharges.
2. It orients the gun the same way every time you carry. This helps you develop the muscle memory necessary for drawing quickly under stress. It is especially crucial for pocket carry as it means you're not fumbling around trying to grab your pistol because it shifted in your pocket. Fumbling can possibly mean a higher chance of actuating the trigger prematurely.
Thanks for raising that concern.
I have an alarming number of first time customers buying pocket pistols who hadnt considered a holster for their pocket pistols, until we demonstrate how easy it is (despite some having a long double action type trigger) for a foreign object (coin, keys, rolled up currency etc) to actuate the trigger.
Mines a single action only and it has an active safety. Do you really think it's needed? I keep a round chambered but the hammer is down and the safety is on.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: This is why I have a .380. It's small enough to not need a holster - just goes into my pocket or sits in my glove compartment. Usually I put it in my jacket - pretty comfortable and safe. If it's not enough dakka then you are probably better off just running anyways.
No holster AT ALL?
2 big reasons you should have a holster:
1. It covers your trigger, therefore it goes a LONG way to helping avoid negligent discharges.
2. It orients the gun the same way every time you carry. This helps you develop the muscle memory necessary for drawing quickly under stress. It is especially crucial for pocket carry as it means you're not fumbling around trying to grab your pistol because it shifted in your pocket. Fumbling can possibly mean a higher chance of actuating the trigger prematurely.
Thanks for raising that concern.
I have an alarming number of first time customers buying pocket pistols who hadnt considered a holster for their pocket pistols, until we demonstrate how easy it is (despite some having a long double action type trigger) for a foreign object (coin, keys, rolled up currency etc) to actuate the trigger.
Mines a single action only and it has an active safety. Do you really think it's needed? I keep a round chambered but the hammer is down and the safety is on.
Thats interesting. The downside if you now have two things you have to do before you can fire-release the safety and cock the hammer.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
IMO you're fine pocket carrying with just a safety, as long as you're careful not to put anything else in that pocket.
My favorite carry setup is actually my Shield in the pocket, no holster at all, safety on. I can be standing in a crowded place with a full firing grip on the pistol, and nobody even notices. Talk about cutting down your draw time...
NuggzTheNinja wrote: IMO you're fine pocket carrying with just a safety, as long as you're careful not to put anything else in that pocket.
My favorite carry setup is actually my Shield in the pocket, no holster at all, safety on. I can be standing in a crowded place with a full firing grip on the pistol, and nobody even notices. Talk about cutting down your draw time...
This is the way I look at it too.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
