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 Azreal13 wrote:
It's not that I don't like it or understand it, I don't agree with your stance that it somehow absolves them from being compared to other companies selling the same type of product into the same market under different criteria. You seem to think it does, but there's no basis for that outside your own opinion.

You've also made huge assumptions about what I do and don't think about their prices and all sorts of other things in the absence of any evidence, when all I'm saying is that it's legitimate to compare the pricing of different war games models from different companies on the basis of price and I disagree with you when you say it isn't.

Plus yes, people swear when they aren't angry, I'm British, it's a thing.

C'mon, it's painfully obvious you don't like it, at least be honest with yourself and that has clouded your argument from the get-go. Nobody is being absolved here, I've presented their model factually...you're the one that keeps using words like "absolves" and "apologism", or whatever it was, not me...and in consideration of said model thereof, it does create a barrier to simple comparison by virtue of the fact that the "products" being offered and discussed are vastly different. I've made no apologies on GW's behalf. If they want to raise their prices tomorrow, guess what, that's their prerogative and I could care less! This isn't opinion, it's obvious and at this point you're just being belligerent to the facts.

I've commented on your statements about their prices without any assumption. Either stand by your comments or don't make them. This just keeps circling back to your sour grapes and disdain for GW's higher prices, you were quite clear about that. You were quite clear and irked about being "forced"...the use of that word alone, belies the essence of your position...to pay their padded prices when other miniature companies sell toy soldiers cheaper. All this without any seeming ability to acknowledge, not agree with, but acknowledge the business model repeatedly presented and why said comparison is not simply apple-to-apple. I even threw a Ritz-Carlton/Motel 6 comparison your way for what I consider a relevant parallel in the hopes of a moment...both sell hotel rooms, simple comparison, right? NOT...but apparently to no avail.

People also swear, I find, when they're frustrated trying to make a point without much merit.

Yeah, snide comments implying you think I'm lying and yet another restatement of an argument I've already said I understand and don't agree with means we're done here.

Edit: Although it is surprising that you seem to think constantly restating the facts of GW's business model constitutes an argument against comparing them with their competitors, it's even more surprising that, from the tone of your posts, that you seem to think that rather than an elementary one it's really rather insightful.

Azreal13 wrote:You [BigWaaagh] said it wasn't fair to compare Bolt Action to GW

In the history of wargaming there are very few products that could compare more directly than Bolt Action and GW's offerings. Both are part of a package of rules plus miniatures. Both rules sets (written by the same person no less) are based on the same tradition of wargaming with the same underlying mechanics (roll dice per soldier to hit, then wound, that sort of thing). They are even roughly the same scale (with some difference in proportions) and, on top of all that. The miniatures are even made out of the same material!

I have no idea why someone would need to somehow diminish that comparison by pointing to GW's costs as the cause of their pricing. It just doesn't actually diminish any of those commonalities to make that claim. It also is pretty ignorant of GW's financial report. Just look at GW's margins (I know, i talk about them a lot). They are incredibly high. Much, much higher than during the height of the LOTR boom. Much much higher than before GW did it's year over year price adjustments of 7-15% a year. GW's prices are not as high as they are because they have to be to pay for things like painting videos. They are as high as they are because GW has a business plan they are executing that is different than in the past when they were happier with lower margins but at a higher volume* like from 1995-2005.

GW's prices are not caused by them needing to pay for stores or painting demos or videos or their social media staff. They are caused by GW wanting a higher return on captial for each project than any of those things could ever require. They have goals of making the most money possible, not a scheme of subsidizing videos or something. All of that "added value" type stuff is done as part of selling the product. This idea that the prices (and thus sales of the product at those prices) are done to pay for things like that is just backwards. Ikea doesn't sell tables to justify the money spent on their catalogues. The business is selling miniatures for GW and housewares for Ikea.

People can tell themselves that all those videos with Duncan and the stuff on the Warhammer Community site are something they get as part of buying the miniatures, but it's actually not the case. Those initiatives are not part of the product, but part of the marketing of the product. You get them whether you buy or not. They are there to encourage you to buy. If GW didn't believe they induced purchasing in their customers, they could cancel them. Just like how if a local store doesn't meet its sales goals, it gets shut down.

* Rountree has already demonstrated an awareness that this is a false dichotomy. When you do injection moulded plastic higher volume doesn't have to reduce your margins, it actually helps them stay high. If you put $50,000 into design and tooling, that cost stays the same whether you sell 10,000 units or 50,000 units and the cost of each individual box and sprue are really low. So if you can keep your prices high enough to cover that cost as quickly as possible and find a way to sell higher volumes you have the best of both worlds. Probably the saddest thing about the Kirby years of selling less product at a higher price to less people in order to prop up margins is that it was unnecessary. The trade off simply didn't have to be made.

When looking at GW's model, it's good for what it doe i.e get teenage kids into the shop and get them handing over as much cash as possible.

The one stop shop, the tutorials, somewhere to play etc etc all help achieve this goal.

Hell, even their paint range is geared around this concept: base/shade/base again/highlight and then some textture paint for no fuss painting.

I do admire the way they do it - it's very effective.

But for me, as a veteran who knows that PVA glue is PVA glue no matter the label, it does fall flat.

The range of companies out there offering cheaper and better paints and models, makes GW a less apealling option to these old eyes.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

There's an opinion in my local area that each new wave for X-Wing diminishes the game, introducing as it does ever more exception to exceptions of rules, and worse looking ships (come on, that Wookiee one is bobbins!). With it not being their IP, they're more restricted in adding nice new stuff in a way PP and GW aren't. Of course, many players will feel a need to buy Ship X, even though it doesn't suit their playstyle or taste in aesthetics just to get Card Y so that Ship Z becomes extra deadly. That's a business model that put me off continuing with the game.

Haven't you pretty much described GW?
GW releases (inc rules) often get more and more powerful as time goes by.
Players need to get some of the latest releases even if they don't like the models.

Isn't this how games companies stay in business?

Some however, press 'reset buttons' more regularly than others, enouraging players to buy stuff like basic models and rules all over again.

GW are the market leaders, it's shocking why so many need to defend them in every post up here on dakka and are often unable to see anything beyond that.

As for GW financials, with the sales of new 40k stuff, GW will be rolling in money for a while. I just wish their rules and books had a better shelf life.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
When looking at GW's model, it's good for what it doe i.e get teenage kids into the shop and get them handing over as much cash as possible.

The one stop shop, the tutorials, somewhere to play etc etc all help achieve this goal.

Hell, even their paint range is geared around this concept: base/shade/base again/highlight and then some textture paint for no fuss painting.

I do admire the way they do it - it's very effective.

But for me, as a veteran who knows that PVA glue is PVA glue no matter the label, it does fall flat.

The range of companies out there offering cheaper and better paints and models, makes GW a less apealling option to these old eyes.

Its not just teenage kids, It is people of all ages, mainly adults and plenty of veterans, in fact if anything the prices are prohibitive to the average teenagers I would say.

Some just prefer the GW to the competition and thats all there is to it.

 Rayvon wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
When looking at GW's model, it's good for what it doe i.e get teenage kids into the shop and get them handing over as much cash as possible.

The one stop shop, the tutorials, somewhere to play etc etc all help achieve this goal.

Hell, even their paint range is geared around this concept: base/shade/base again/highlight and then some textture paint for no fuss painting.

I do admire the way they do it - it's very effective.

But for me, as a veteran who knows that PVA glue is PVA glue no matter the label, it does fall flat.

The range of companies out there offering cheaper and better paints and models, makes GW a less apealling option to these old eyes.

Its not just teenage kids, It is people of all ages, mainly adults and plenty of veterans, in fact if anything the prices are prohibitive to the average teenagers I would say.

Some just prefer the GW to the competition and thats all there is to it.

I'm not knocking GW fans and collectors - I was one myself for a number of years, but those teenage kids have parents, and I've witnessed it myself where the parent will happily throw down a few hundred pound on the counter.

It's a model that works for GW and good luck to them. I suppose I've wasted a lot of time trying to say that it's not for me.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I do admire the way they do it - it's very effective.

But for me, as a veteran who knows that PVA glue is PVA glue no matter the label, it does fall flat.

The range of companies out there offering cheaper and better paints and models, makes GW a less apealling option to these old eyes.

I have never bought GW PVA, super glue or plastic glue. I totally get where you are coming from and agree. GW does, to some extent, rely on the ignorance of their customers. While the convenience factor is there, I also think there's an aspect of consumer ignorance that contributes to the ongoing sale of these sorts of products.

Gimgamgoo wrote:Haven't you pretty much described GW?
GW releases (inc rules) often get more and more powerful as time goes by.
Players need to get some of the latest releases even if they don't like the models.

Isn't this how games companies stay in business?

It's one way. I don't think it can really replace offering a cool game that's fun to play with nice components at a price people are willing to pay (even if that price is high). I think if you hit a tipping point where your miniatures are only being purchased because of the rules for those models and not on their own merit, the product line becomes very vulnerable to game design mistakes.

Some however, press 'reset buttons' more regularly than others, enouraging players to buy stuff like basic models and rules all over again.

I've heard from ex-GW employees (not just store staff but people who worked at national offices) that GW believes their customers don't usually stick around more than 2 years or so. So if you're expecting them to quit within a couple of years, why not sell them the game twice before they go?

I think GW is moving away from that though. I think Rountree is telling the truth when he says he wants to focus on keeping customers and getting back lapsed customers. So I think annual rules update (Generals Handbook 2017 available in August) and the like can be a substitute to selling everyone the rules over again. And campaign and stand alone game boxes like Calth or Gangs of Commorragh can take the place of new starter sets. I think both Age of Sigmar and 8th edition 40k are going to have longer lives than the editions that preceded them.

GW are the market leaders, it's shocking why so many need to defend them in every post up here on dakka and are often unable to see anything beyond that.

I'm not sure they were the market leaders from 2010-2015. They seemed to be retracting and not innovating and giving up market share. Being the biggest company doesn't mean you are leading the market. Maybe they are now? Maybe they are going to be the ones causing other companies to respond to them again? The only leadership they provided in the marketplace during the years that saw the death of WFHB, the shut down of customer communication, restricted marketing time lines and the stagnation of their revenue was as an object lesson of what not to do.

As for GW financials, with the sales of new 40k stuff, GW will be rolling in money for a while. I just wish their rules and books had a better shelf life.

I play Age of Sigmar without the Battletomes. I plan on playing 40k without the codexes. From what we've seen about Codex: Space Marines is that the individual data sheets aren't really changing that much. I expect we're entering a period of prolonged game utility for GW's rules. Unless all people do is play tournament games or insist on pretending their average game with a friend is also a tournament game, people can get years of enjoyment out of their index books and the free rules document alone. People just get pulled into a way to play that diminishes their enjoyment out of a fear based need to protect themselves from their fellow gamer.

I spend a lot of time in and around WW and there are very few kids going in there, its mostly adults of all ages ( anecdotal I know)

It is the same with the GW based facebook groups and the stores that I frequent, in and around the midlands.
The majority of GW buyers I see are adults with an interest of their own.

Whether its the style, the fluff, or maybe they are just not aware of other wargames, I am not so sure, but the " its all just for Teenage kids " thing is fallacy.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
ICV2 have said they don't include data from shops or manufacturers that decline to take part.

So therefore, it's more likely than not GW's direct sales and Own Shop sales aren't in fact included - rendering the ICV2 interesting, but far from accurate.

For the population that it serves (indy retail shops), it's totally accurate.

But not as an actual study into which games are selling best.

GW's store sales in the US aren't that much less than their trade.

So when the widely accepted 'biggest fish' is having only 60% of their sales reported, assuming all their distributors and sellers partake, you inevitably wind up with a report that, factually, is largely useless for analysis.


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 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

There's an opinion in my local area that each new wave for X-Wing diminishes the game, introducing as it does ever more exception to exceptions of rules, and worse looking ships (come on, that Wookiee one is bobbins!). With it not being their IP, they're more restricted in adding nice new stuff in a way PP and GW aren't. Of course, many players will feel a need to buy Ship X, even though it doesn't suit their playstyle or taste in aesthetics just to get Card Y so that Ship Z becomes extra deadly. That's a business model that put me off continuing with the game.

Haven't you pretty much described GW?
GW releases (inc rules) often get more and more powerful as time goes by.
Players need to get some of the latest releases even if they don't like the models.

Isn't this how games companies stay in business?

Some however, press 'reset buttons' more regularly than others, enouraging players to buy stuff like basic models and rules all over again.

GW are the market leaders, it's shocking why so many need to defend them in every post up here on dakka and are often unable to see anything beyond that.

As for GW financials, with the sales of new 40k stuff, GW will be rolling in money for a while. I just wish their rules and books had a better shelf life.

Needs to be read in conjunction with the preceding line paragraph - that FFG do not own the Star Wars IP, they're just renting it.

That's a hurdle. Yes Star Wars is popular, and more so than ever with two frankly brilliant films release in the past 19 months.

But with that comes limitation. So far, FFG to the best of my knowledge have only come up with one uniquely new ship, the Imperial Raiser (and very nice it is too. I'm a particular fan of the semi-concealed weapon batteries). Everything else is pulled from films and comics. As in the quote above, my local scene kind of feels they're now scraping the barrel a bit, and have been since the bloody-awful-design-wise-in-that-it-doesn't-even-look-Star-Wars K-Wing.

That lack of true creative control is an issue. You're always going to be limited by the owner in terms of what you can and can't do. Marry that to X-Wings limited rule set, and you've got a recipe for pissing off your customers.

The Disco Biscuit dial is cool, don't get me wrong. I'm a big fan of X-Wing as a system. But, as a game I find it damned difficult to maintain my interest, because each wave seems to introduce something uniquely new, in a way that can render my current fleet ponk. Be it stopping on a dime, or simply reversing.

Then there's the 'pay to play' approach I seriously disapprove of. Yes, GW likes to churn its codecies, and you just can't predict how that's gonna work out. Sometimes it's very very good (5th to 6th Ed Dark Elves, and now shockingly hard my 'deliberately composed of allegedly underpowered units' army became as a result. But I'd rather it be every few years than X-Wings 'if you want to stay competitive, you have to continually buy the latest ships, whether or not they're your Faction because feth you we want to milk you for every penny' model.

Let's consider one of the most iconic ships of Star Wars, Vader's experimental TIE. In the film, it's great. It's a different shape, and seems better than the 'sneeze and it comes apart' TIE Fighter. In the game? It's crap. Properly properly crap. But hey, don't worry, kiddo. We've bundled in some cards to make it not-crap with the Imperial Raider. So that £10 ship we probably made sure was crap, chuck us another £55 for an Epic Ship you'll use once in a blue moon because that's how the game works, and we'll give you the cards for that to happen.

That's a horrible business plan, and one that in my opinion only absolute suckers would repeatedly buy into, hence why I sold my otherwise extensive X-Wing collection around18 months ago. The game just isn't worth the continual drip drip drip of spending. At all.

How many ships have you bought for X-Wing that swiftly became redundant due to new waves? How many now gather dust because a more recent wave introduced a ship which just does it better?

As for AoS falling off the chart, I am a bit surprised. I thought it was on an upswing, but I suppose things like the new D&D miniatures are on an even greater upswing in North America.

It is true that of the five stores within an hour's drive, only 2 have GW and one's a GW store. Four have the new D&D miniatures.

Unrelated quote from the latest financial report about the upcoming year:

We will continue to review our product range and in store merchandising. We have not made as much progress
as I would have liked on range management and in store merchandising (busy year!), so I will be reviewing my
structure to ensure we have the right focus on this important sales opportunity.

I think we will see further consolidation of what stores carry in stock. It would probably make sense to continue to expand Start Collecting! type boxes to make sure every faction has one and to keep it in stock at their locations.

 frozenwastes wrote:

Azreal13 wrote:You [BigWaaagh] said it wasn't fair to compare Bolt Action to GW

In the history of wargaming there are very few products that could compare more directly than Bolt Action and GW's offerings. Both are part of a package of rules plus miniatures. Both rules sets (written by the same person no less) are based on the same tradition of wargaming with the same underlying mechanics (roll dice per soldier to hit, then wound, that sort of thing). They are even roughly the same scale (with some difference in proportions) and, on top of all that. The miniatures are even made out of the same material!.

Maybe because Bolt Action is yet another WW2 game, using plastics rather than the age-old metals, but that is who Bolt Action is competing against - other historicals manufacturers. If Bolt Action priced their ww2 Germans the same as GW's Space Marines, no one would buy them. GW charges what they can because there is no effective competition. Apples and Oranges.

Sorry, but one difference in a sea of similarities doesn't make it apples and oranges.

This notion that GW has no effective competition is ridiculous. This has been discussed to death in other threads, but if we've hit a point where a miniature wargame with the same original rules author, similar mechanics, similar scale, same packaging of rules and figures together, and the exact same material doesn't count as competition, then the criteria used have totally failed.

Probably the only degree to which I would accept another miniature wargame not being competition for GW is the degree to which they have managed to keep their customer base ignorant of other options. This segregated market they are continually trying to create allows them to function in a more monopolistic fashion than they otherwise would. It's not actually based on a substantial difference between their products and those of their competition, but on the maintenance of customer ignorance.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Sorry, but one difference in a sea of similarities doesn't make it apples and oranges.

This notion that GW has no effective competition is ridiculous. This has been discussed to death in other threads, but if we've hit a point where a miniature wargame with the same original rules author, similar mechanics, similar scale, same packaging of rules and figures together, and the exact same material doesn't count as competition, then the criteria used have totally failed.

Probably the only degree to which I would accept another miniature wargame not being competition for GW is the degree to which they have managed to keep their customer base ignorant of other options. This segregated market they are continually trying to create allows them to function in a more monopolistic fashion than they otherwise would. It's not actually based on a substantial difference between their products and those of their competition, but on the maintenance of customer ignorance.

What hogwash. "A sea of similiarities."? Where? Both make miniatures, sure. Both HQ'd in UK, sure. For all serious purposes, I really see this as the end of the line and this ridiculous canard.

IMHO:
Miniatures? No comparison.
Proprietary, fictional gaming system vs Historical gaming system? No comparison.
Network of staffed, proprietary Hobby Centers as support and recruiting mechanisms to provide longevity to the hobby? No comparison.
Development Team creating, maintaining and supporting proprietary "universe"? No comparison.
Multi-media hobby support? No comparison.
Premium Collector's level product? No comparison.
Publishing arm? No comparison.
Global Centerpiece Hobby destination? No comparison.

And on, and on, and on. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Warlord or Bolt Action, I have quite a bit of their product, but this isn't a comparison that holds water. This is about addressing this crusty, old GW bashing masquerading as an attempt to draw comparison to two very different product offerings.

Your criteria is a failure. You cite superficial examples as a representative of significant similiarity for purposes of trying to establish a competition comparison, i.e. scale, packaging. Well apples and oranges are both round, about the size of a baseball and fruit, but that's about it, and as I stated earlier in this post's thread, I'm pretty sure the Ritz-Carlton doesn't consider Motel 6 competition...and I could draw exponentially more comparisons between them and what you've done with GW's miniatures and Bolt Action.

This is just more tired and bitchy GW bashing because of what? You rag on their margins, so I'm guessing cost? Well they're a publicly held company that has a primary obligation to their shareholders, not your sense of what their margin should or shouldn't be. To put an even finer point on that, they're a niche business that the model of which...by definition...lives and dies by it's margins. That's simply business 101. Costs too much? Move on. Margins keep you up at night? Move on. Not everybody was meant to drive a Mercedes, should drive a Mercedes or can afford a Mercedes, that's life! But the vitriol driving your attempt at a point is just childish and is obvious. "...maintenance of customer ignorance." Wow, how can somebody be so broken over playing games with toy soldiers?

GW products are so expensive because you are paying for the brand. Citadel, Warhammer, Games Workshop. They offer you a "feeling".
Generic historical soldiers don't. Now, if that "feeling" is enough to justify those prices is only something that only you can decide. Because this is a free market where items don't have a price in relation with how much did they cost, but in relation to their perceived value. Of course GW could sell a Tactical Box for 15€ and still have benefices. And the supermarket buy every milk box at 0,07€ and I pay it at 0.60€!

I don't buy Iphones, or Lacoste clothes. A 15€ T-shirt just do the trick for me. But theres people paying millions for exclusive clothes, or cars, or other things like that.
Did I find the price of ferrari cars absurd? Yes I do.
Did I find the price of many, many kits GW does absurd? Yes I do.
Do I pay prices I find absurd for products that don't offer me a subjetive value? No, I don't.

I disagree tought that historicals or X-wing aren't competition of GW. You can bet they are. Even tabletop games are competition for GW.
Heck, EVEN videogames are the biggest competitor of the tabletop and wargaming industry in general, for example.

 BigWaaagh wrote:

What hogwash. "A sea of similiarities."? Where? Both make miniatures, sure. Both HQ'd in UK, sure. For all serious purposes, I really see this as the end of the line and this ridiculous canard.

IMHO:
Miniatures? No comparison.
Proprietary, fictional gaming system vs Historical gaming system? No comparison.
Network of staffed, proprietary Hobby Centers as support and recruiting mechanisms to provide longevity to the hobby? No comparison.
Development Team creating, maintaining and supporting proprietary "universe"? No comparison.
Multi-media hobby support? No comparison.
Premium Collector's level product? No comparison.
Publishing arm? No comparison.
Global Centerpiece Hobby destination? No comparison.

I must say, this is the worst "comparision" I've ever read on this forum. Like seriously?

RoninXiC wrote:

 BigWaaagh wrote:

What hogwash. "A sea of similiarities."? Where? Both make miniatures, sure. Both HQ'd in UK, sure. For all serious purposes, I really see this as the end of the line and this ridiculous canard.

IMHO:
Miniatures? No comparison.
Proprietary, fictional gaming system vs Historical gaming system? No comparison.
Network of staffed, proprietary Hobby Centers as support and recruiting mechanisms to provide longevity to the hobby? No comparison.
Development Team creating, maintaining and supporting proprietary "universe"? No comparison.
Multi-media hobby support? No comparison.
Premium Collector's level product? No comparison.
Publishing arm? No comparison.
Global Centerpiece Hobby destination? No comparison.

I must say, this is the worst "comparision" I've ever read on this forum. Like seriously?

Yeah, I thought it was a strange comparison myself.

Of course you can compare a Bolt Action German grenadier to say, a Space Marine. You can compare quality of plastic, or design, or detail, or whatever. It's a valid comparison.

When it comes to retail stores and profile, GW are ahead, no argument there, but warlord do painting videos on youtube, and their books are stocked in a high street bookstore chain in the UK, so there commercial reach is good.

Comparing Warlord to GW is a fair comparison in my book.

Bigwaaagh does have a point though.

Bolt Action just make a game and the models for it. GW have taken a different approach, instead selling a full hobby.

It's easy for us older gamers to forget, but you can partake in the full gamut of hobby war gaming activities using solely GW branded goods, including gaming venues and tournaments if one so wished.

GW aren't the war gaming hobby in totality. But there is very real GW Hobby (note the capitalisation for effect).

In that, GW are pretty unique as a business model. The closest that I can think of right now would be Marks and Spencers - a British institution. Until relatively recent, that bulwark of the aspirational middle classes only ever sold it's own brand goods - including in it's foodhalls (where it's branded as St Michael). And just like GW, they built a retail empire solely selling their own branded goods, unlike competing and contemporaneous department stores.

Your own country, wherever you may be dear reader, may have something similar, but I'm afraid my ignorance on that is getting the better of me!

If you want
Hobby Centers: Go to a FLGS
Gaming Universe: Does WW2 really need more people working on it? They're also publishing "all" the theatres to they ARE working on it.
Multi-Media Hobby support: Like what? Apps? gakky games? That's not part of the hobby and even IF, they're paying for itself. GW just hands out the rights to the IP and gets the cash. So it is completely wrong here.
"Premium" collectors level products: GW does have zeroPremium" collectors stuff. Like seriously. Even the bigger kits are a joke to a propers 1/35 scale model tank. Forgeworld maybe.. but even than... That's of zero point. Those things make money on their own and have no point in a comparision like this.
Publishing arm: You mean books and stuff? Warlord Games works closely with Osprey publishing who are writing books you know? And again: who cares?
Global hobby centers: This is on the list twice. Or do you mean all the stuff in Nottingham? That's not global. Our GW store in Bremen, Germany is not worth the visit. You can just ignore it and miss nothing.


Again: Your comparision is not worth the ink used :x

On the pricing thing, it says a lot to me personally that I now earn more than I ever have in my life and have more disposable income, but find GW too damn expensive. Their boxed games are good, I bought both the Prospero game and the Deathwatch game, the sheer amount of high quality plastic is superb, my only purchases of the last five years. But their regular product lines, where single plastic miniatures are as much as £15-20, that disparity I find confusing compared to other products. I can afford it, but I just can't justify it.

 Rayvon wrote:
I spend a lot of time in and around WW and there are very few kids going in there, its mostly adults of all ages ( anecdotal I know)

It is the same with the GW based facebook groups and the stores that I frequent, in and around the midlands.
The majority of GW buyers I see are adults with an interest of their own.

Whether its the style, the fluff, or maybe they are just not aware of other wargames, I am not so sure, but the " its all just for Teenage kids " thing is fallacy.

I suspect a lot of the current players were teenagers in the first "golden age of gaming", and are now somewhere in their 30's. They are presumably the same ones buying ForgeWorld stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cruentus wrote:


Maybe because Bolt Action is yet another WW2 game, using plastics rather than the age-old metals, but that is who Bolt Action is competing against - other historicals manufacturers. If Bolt Action priced their ww2 Germans the same as GW's Space Marines, no one would buy them. GW charges what they can because there is no effective competition. Apples and Oranges.

Bolt Action comprises of plastic or metal minis, and plastic or resin vehicles (with metal bits).
GW is pretty much all plastic, with some resin.

You're right no-one would buy ww2 Germans at Space Marine costs, because it'd be obscene. The only reason GW can sell Space Marines at Space Marine prices is the fanbase.

That said, from the perspective of someone who doesn't know the fluff and isn't already a gamer. How do you explain why that inch tall plastic dude in a space suit is 3x the cost of that inch tall plastic dude from all Call of Duty games?

They both have to be built and painted in the same way, and can be played with in the same way. The WW2 guy potentially has even more opportunity for games, since it's not tied to a ruleset.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BigWaaagh wrote:

What hogwash. "A sea of similiarities."? Where? Both make miniatures, sure. Both HQ'd in UK, sure. For all serious purposes, I really see this as the end of the line and this ridiculous canard.

The same guy wrote 40K and Bolt Action. Bolt action is widely regarded as what 40K should have become (or Gates of Antares in sci-fi guise). The guy who runs Warlord used to be a senior manager at GW, and is the guy responsible for White Dwarf in the 90's and the idea to put 2 armies and a rulebook in a box and call it a starter. Pretty much the "who's who" of Games Workshop in it's prime now work for/with Warlord.

Miniatures? No comparison.

Roughly inch tall figures made from a range of spin-cast metal/resin, or injection moulded plastic? Made by the same sculptors in a lot of cases? Stylistically totally different, but in every other way pretty much identical.

Proprietary, fictional gaming system vs Historical gaming system? No comparison.

Beyond the proprietary nature (and ignoring the fact that 40K is pretty much a rip off of the Dune universe), sure. Derivative sci-fi is not the same as historical settings.

Network of staffed, proprietary Hobby Centers as support and recruiting mechanisms to provide longevity to the hobby? No comparison.

Why do the hobby centres need to be staffed? There are far more independents than GW stores, and they can support Bolt Action just as well as 40K.

Development Team creating, maintaining and supporting proprietary "universe"? No comparison.

Why does the development need to be for a proprietary universe? At least the historical one can't shoehorn in Centurions or Primaris Marines.

Multi-media hobby support? No comparison.

Yeah, GW has more video content. I think Warlord has some, but not much. You have a point here.

Premium Collector's level product? No comparison.

You've got a point here, there's no premium Bolt Action stuff. Does there need to be?

Publishing arm? No comparison.

That would be a big deal before, but since GW's publishing arm was rolled into it's writing arm it's largely become a marketing tool.

Global Centerpiece Hobby destination? No comparison.

Yeah, Warlord HQ isn't as visually impressive as WHW. But GW have closed down all of the other HQ's and cut down on WHWs opening hours to the point it can be hard to visit.
It's also of zero use to anyone who isn't in middle England.


Once you factor out the proprietary, they are remarkable similar except for the scale of the company.

RoninXiC wrote:

 BigWaaagh wrote:

What hogwash. "A sea of similiarities."? Where? Both make miniatures, sure. Both HQ'd in UK, sure. For all serious purposes, I really see this as the end of the line and this ridiculous canard.

IMHO:
Miniatures? No comparison.
Proprietary, fictional gaming system vs Historical gaming system? No comparison.
Network of staffed, proprietary Hobby Centers as support and recruiting mechanisms to provide longevity to the hobby? No comparison.
Development Team creating, maintaining and supporting proprietary "universe"? No comparison.
Multi-media hobby support? No comparison.
Premium Collector's level product? No comparison.
Publishing arm? No comparison.
Global Centerpiece Hobby destination? No comparison.

I must say, this is the worst "comparision" I've ever read on this forum. Like seriously?

The comparison is absolutely valid. There's been an attempt to draw a comparison from Bolt Action to GW miniatures for purposes of showing price disparity and allowing for another GW price bashing whinefest. My counterpoint response was that the "product" offered by GW and, accordingly, priced into their price point is vastly different than that of Bolt Action. Hence, a simple attempt to present an apples-to-apples comparison is an exercise in absurdity. The list you're questioning highlights some of those cost inputs affecting, or not affecting said pricing. So, like, seriously.

Apples and Oranges are both fruit that taste sweet and nice.
I never understood this figure of speech to be honest..

Anyways, Bolt Action and Warhammer miniatures can and will be compared. You can put your head into the sand as deep as you want. Does not change the fact that Warhammer minis usually are way too expensive compared to such as Bolt Action.

RoninXiC wrote:
If you want
Hobby Centers: Go to a FLGS
Gaming Universe: Does WW2 really need more people working on it? They're also publishing "all" the theatres to they ARE working on it.
Multi-Media Hobby support: Like what? Apps? gakky games? That's not part of the hobby and even IF, they're paying for itself. GW just hands out the rights to the IP and gets the cash. So it is completely wrong here.
"Premium" collectors level products: GW does have zeroPremium" collectors stuff. Like seriously. Even the bigger kits are a joke to a propers 1/35 scale model tank. Forgeworld maybe.. but even than... That's of zero point. Those things make money on their own and have no point in a comparision like this.
Publishing arm: You mean books and stuff? Warlord Games works closely with Osprey publishing who are writing books you know? And again: who cares?
Global hobby centers: This is on the list twice. Or do you mean all the stuff in Nottingham? That's not global. Our GW store in Bremen, Germany is not worth the visit. You can just ignore it and miss nothing.


Again: Your comparision is not worth the ink used :x

Really?

Multi-Media Hobby Support...White Dwarf ring a bell?
"Premium" collectors level products...Forge World ring a bell?
Publishing arm: You mean books and stuff...Black Library ring a bell?
Global hobby centers: This is on the list twice...no, it isn't. Hobby Centers once, "Centerpiece" aka WHW once.

You really might want to research the company you bash before you post commentary like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RoninXiC wrote:
Apples and Oranges are both fruit that taste sweet and nice.
I never understood this figure of speech to be honest..

Anyways, Bolt Action and Warhammer miniatures can and will be compared. You can put your head into the sand as deep as you want. Does not change the fact that Warhammer minis usually are way too expensive compared to such as Bolt Action.

And we get to the crux of it...which is the crux of all the GW rag-ons I've heard over the last 20+ years...and that is price. Little bit of insight, the market will bear what the market will bear with regards to price. Maybe it's too expensive for you, but GW's Financials, which is at the epicenter of this thread, showed results that they're apparently priced right for a hell of a lot of people who obviously bought them.

Two of your points are meritless.

Scale of miniature is the criteria for valid comparison? Please. That's like saying a tub of 'Green Army Men' are comparable to Forge World because they're "roughly" the same size. No, IMHO, the difference in miniatures on several levels is evident. As to the GW alma mater behind Warlord, that's great but hardly a grounds for comparison especially since we're discussing Bolt Action, a historical game based on a storyline...actual history...that's been written and just needed to have a rules set put to it. WH40K, on the other hand, a unique and proprietary game system/universe created, developed and continually added-on to. What's new that's being added on to WW2? Yeah, nothing...no comparison. Need Bolt Action minis? Open a history book and sculpt. Need WH40K minis? Artist researches and draws up concept art, game designers review for "fit" and authenticity, sculpts are made, etc., etc....once again, no comparison.

Also, with regards to WHW, it's head and shoulders above anything else I've ever seen offered by any miniatures company, ever, so there's no comparison to anything out there really. And as I stated in the description of it, I clearly acknowledged it as a 'destination', so it's not supposed to be a "Hey, let's pop over to WHW for a game." facility...although Nottingham residents get to enjoy this as an option...but it functions as a destination perk for GW enthusiasts worldwide.

What's this gotta do with GW financials?

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
What's this gotta do with GW financials?

Go back a page or so and you'll see, but it has admittedly drifted, albeit from an orignally On-Topic position.

 BigWaaagh wrote:


Two of your points are meritless.

Scale of miniature is the criteria for valid comparison? Please. That's like saying a tub of 'Green Army Men' are comparable to Forge World because they're "roughly" the same size. No, IMHO, the difference in miniatures on several levels is evident.

Army men are made from cheap plastic, Forge World from cheap resin.

Take the aesthetics out of it (because of course they look different. Bolt Action is WW2, 40K is Sci-Fi), but take in factors like the size of the minis, the detail of the minis, the size of the sprues, weight of the plastic, etc. It's essentially the same. Warlord could produce a Space Marine and GW could produce a US Marine and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

As to the GW alma mater behind Warlord, that's great but hardly a grounds for comparison especially since we're discussing Bolt Action, a historical game based on a storyline

From a mechanical point of view they are the same guys making the same stuff.

just needed to have a rules set put to it.

Just needs a rules set to it that fits with the history.

WH40K, on the other hand, a unique and proprietary game system/universe created, developed and continually added-on to.

There's nothing unique about WH40K, down to the God-Emperor and the Warrior Monks. It is continually developed and added on to, just as Bolt Action is continually developed and added onto with new units, theatres, campaigns.

What's new that's being added on to WW2? Yeah, nothing...no comparison.

There's new units, theatres and campaigns being added on a regular basis. WW2 covers most types of battles in most environments in the world. Jungle, desert, snow, city, rural, mass tank, small skirmish.

Also, with regards to WHW, it's head and shoulders above anything else I've ever seen offered by any miniatures company, ever, so there's no comparison to anything out there really.

Agreed. It's the only custom-built headquarters for a gaming company, because it's also (currently) the only gaming company big enough to justify it. But it's still only on a single industrial estate in Nottingham, England. It's of no use to gamers anywhere else. It's definitely impressive, but it's no more accesible to the gaming community than the Warlord HQ about 2 miles up the road. The Warlord one, incidentally, gives you 10% off anything you buy there, and they'll give you a tour of the production facilities. WHW used to give you offers and tours about 20 years ago, too.

And as I stated in the description of it, I clearly acknowledged it as a 'destination', so it's not supposed to be a "Hey, let's pop over to WHW for a game." facility...although Nottingham residents get to enjoy this as an option...but it functions as a destination perk for GW enthusiasts worldwide.

True. But how many people do you think travel from abroad to go to WHW? Or even across the country? It's no Disneyland. There's not much to keep anyone occupied for more than a couple of hours unless you're gaming there. It's not open long enough to make a day/weekend of it. It's a pub, a big gaming hall, 3 shops and a pretty cool museum.
I've been, maybe 3 times, when I've been in the area.

Azrael13 made a completely valid point that from a customer's perspective, the difference between Bolt Action figures and GW's figures in terms of price is large. For some reason, that fact has to be nullified by some. They have a need for the comparison to be made invalid.

What this has to do with GW's financials is that part of Rountree's approach is to be more price conscious. They have increased sales volume and one of the things that's different about the current GW approach is that you actually can get savings in both Start Collecting boxes as well as in stand alone games like Gangs of Commorragh or whatever.

GW has also embraced using content creators like youtubers to preview their product. For example, they sent the relatively new channel WargamerOnline some product like Dark Imperium and the easy to build Reivers. And the aggressor kits and multipart reivers. Guess who else sent them review product? Warlord/Osprey.

I don't know why some people need GW to be supah speshul and have no competition when they clearly do. Does Big Waaagh take Azrael's price comparison as some personal slight of having paid more for no good reason? I have no idea.

This year I have bought GW products but have not bought Warlord products. Despite the price difference. I feel no need, however, to totally dismiss reality and claim there is no competition there when there clearly is (both are trying to promote their product to the exact same audience).

I actually also see GW's re-entry into the convention circuit and their working with bloggers, youtubers and other content creators as an acknowledgement that they are indeed in competition with someone like Warlord. If they weren't, then they certainly would not be going into the same places and trying to sell their product to the same people Warlord is.

I actually think GW is going to compete well in the larger gaming sphere that they are re-engaging. Price is not the only consideration people make when selecting a wargame. As well, the rules approach of both AoS and 8th edition 40k supports lower model count games pretty well, so there isn't this massive barrier in place before you get to the "real" game. If you watch a 1000 point or 50 power level battle report on youtube, it's obvious that they are having the full game experience.

I hope GW is thinking more in terms of total customer experience going forward. Not just the experience of buying their product, but the experience of every part of the actual use of the product. They seem to be. On the AoS side of things this Skirmish into Path to Glory into larger games approach seems to indicate they want people to enjoy every aspect of Collect-Build-Paint-Play as early as possible.