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I say we wait until we have some real game play backing up our understanding of 8th, maybe add "This page has this discussion" tabs in the OP.

I was planning on doing a new one once 8th actually dropped, but I guess we could do it early.
Thing is, not everyone has access to the leaked pages. We would get a lot of people confused as to what we were talking about and we wouldn't be able to point them in the right direction for an explanation... granted, that'd be the same for the current thread.

(also, it doesn't necessarily need to be me that makes it. I just wanted to make sure it would be constantly updated. Previous tactics thread starters would just create the thing and leave it to wither. I wanted to make sure we would have new info easily findable for all players)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FireSkullz2 wrote:
I say we wait until we have some real game play backing up our understanding of 8th, maybe add "This page has this discussion" tabs in the OP.

Can do.

Requizen wrote:

torblind wrote:

 Doctarro wrote:
Do you have to get an Overlord separately from the CCB? The datasheet seems pretty unclear.

If we do have a separate Overlord, then that means we've got MWBD on a 12" move platform, which seems pretty good for getting it where you want it.

CCB already has MWBD on steroids, called wave of command, it's a 12 " bubble

Nope, only affects one unit. It has a 12" range as opposed to MWBD on 6", though.

They both affect only one unit, right?


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+1 A on charge and +1 A for extra CC weapon are both gone, right?

 skoffs wrote:
I was planning on doing a new one once 8th actually dropped, but I guess we could do it early.
Thing is, not everyone has access to the leaked pages. We would get a lot of people confused as to what we were talking about and we wouldn't be able to point them in the right direction for an explanation... granted, that'd be the same for the current thread.

(also, it doesn't necessarily need to be me that makes it. I just wanted to make sure it would be constantly updated. Previous tactics thread starters would just create the thing and leave it to wither. I wanted to make sure we would have new info easily findable for all players)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FireSkullz2 wrote:
I say we wait until we have some real game play backing up our understanding of 8th, maybe add "This page has this discussion" tabs in the OP.

Can do.

good job Skoffs


Also, props to Freddy Kruger posting this up in another thread.

I'm glad that .gif is a hit amongst my other metal tomb kings in space aficionados!

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I'm glad that .gif is a hit amongst my other metal tomb kings in space aficionados!

It's awesome!

Someone savvy should make an app that took a battle scribe roster and set up an animation like that! I'd love to see my armies on the march!

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I'm glad that .gif is a hit amongst my other metal tomb kings in space aficionados!

Are Necrons really coming or will they walk behind?
The new edition will tell. I have no opinion yet.

I'm pretty concerned with how Necrons look. I think the 2 factions to beat are going to be Astra Militarum and Tyranids for sure.

Tyranids I've spoken on a bit, but it's worth just looking for yourself how good they are. Carnifexes are base 105 points for T7 W8 3+. They can field hordes of infantry for very little cost. They're extremely quick. Generally, you ARE getting charged by them. It remains to be seen by how many models, but I suspect that people are going to be very unable to deal with them at release.

AM are just silly. 102 points gets you a Chimera with a heavy flamer, which is T7 W10 3+. Plasma guns are 9 points; Scions can take 2 for 133 and just drop anywhere on the field. They can clog up the board with bodies, or they can heavily mechanise into exceptionally strong tanks. Manticores are silly strong for 133 points. They will almost certainly get 12 command points every single game, because it's that easy to fill up the Brigade detachment.

I don't see how we can compete with either. How do you prepare for a force which might be 200+ bodies with way more shooting than you and also prepare for a list of entirely T6+ W10+ models which also get better shooting than you? We have neither the advantage of durability, combat ability nor quantity. What's the use of vehicles when the enemy can field 20 100% accurate deep striking plasma guns which kill them in one turn? I don't understand how we're supposed to fight these armies with what we've been given; I feel like I'm trying to eat soup with a sieve looking at the lists other armies are putting out.

Eyjio wrote:
I'm pretty concerned with how Necrons look. I think the 2 factions to beat are going to be Astra Militarum and Tyranids for sure.

Tyranids I've spoken on a bit, but it's worth just looking for yourself how good they are. Carnifexes are base 105 points for T7 W8 3+. They can field hordes of infantry for very little cost. They're extremely quick. Generally, you ARE getting charged by them. It remains to be seen by how many models, but I suspect that people are going to be very unable to deal with them at release.

AM are just silly. 102 points gets you a Chimera with a heavy flamer, which is T7 W10 3+. Plasma guns are 9 points; Scions can take 2 for 133 and just drop anywhere on the field. They can clog up the board with bodies, or they can heavily mechanise into exceptionally strong tanks. Manticores are silly strong for 133 points. They will almost certainly get 12 command points every single game, because it's that easy to fill up the Brigade detachment.

I don't see how we can compete with either. How do you prepare for a force which might be 200+ bodies with way more shooting than you and also prepare for a list of entirely T6+ W10+ models which also get better shooting than you? We have neither the advantage of durability, combat ability nor quantity. What's the use of vehicles when the enemy can field 20 100% accurate deep striking plasma guns which kill them in one turn? I don't understand how we're supposed to fight these armies with what we've been given; I feel like I'm trying to eat soup with a sieve looking at the lists other armies are putting out.

You need have a layered army and expendable units aka scarabs that deny drop vectors. Or, Warrior units you are prepared to lose. Look at miimum sizes - 10 Warriors for 120, 5 Immortals for 85, 3 Scarabs for 39.

The game's no longer about destroying the other army while retaining 90% of yours, it's more like Warmachine or Chess where you're expected to make trades, it's just how much better you are at trading than the other guy.

I think this ia going to be car-hammer again, since transports and vehicles god buffed alot and now Necrons ironically have nothing against high toughness (especially T8).
Melee Warscythes are usually S7, so wound on only 4-5+ and then vehicles have a save and a lot more wounds than before. To kill a knight with a warscythe we will need 36! hits, because to wound is 5+. A land rider is even worse....
Shooting with warriors requires now 288! hits to destroy a Knight, compared to 72 before.

Against Genestealers just put some Tesla immortals. 20 immortals buffed by an Overlord can kill 26 Genestealers in one round of shooting and 9 in overwatch.

For me ir looks like the best tactic for Necrons is bring hundreds of Warriors and Immortals, to kill enemy infantry and outlast/ignore the other stuff like heavy vehicles. Its now much harder to kill 20Immortals, because one hit can only bring down one model, so big guns are not scarry, and small usually dont have high str/ap.

Erm, aren't heavy gauss cannons the necron answer to high toughness? S9 AP-4 will do some damage, a trio of heavy destroyers seems like a pretty reliable way to kill high toughness units.

Arachnofiend wrote:
Erm, aren't heavy gauss cannons the necron answer to high toughness? S9 AP-4 will do some damage, a trio of heavy destroyers seems like a pretty reliable way to kill high toughness units.

-5 save modifier, I think. And yeah, heavy gauss is pretty good AT. Gauss cannons can also do work with their D3 wounds, and due to the changes to wounding they will wound most heavy targets on a 5+, as long as the target's toughness does not exceed nine.

I agree with needing to deny drops now and making important trades. That's partially why I'm so concerned with AM and Nids - they can build an awful lot of redundancy into their lists, and it's very hard to stop it.

mangar wrote:
I think this ia going to be car-hammer again, since transports and vehicles god buffed alot and now Necrons ironically have nothing against high toughness (especially T8).
Melee Warscythes are usually S7, so wound on only 4-5+ and then vehicles have a save and a lot more wounds than before. To kill a knight with a warscythe we will need 36! hits, because to wound is 5+. A land rider is even worse....
Shooting with warriors requires now 288! hits to destroy a Knight, compared to 72 before.

Against Genestealers just put some Tesla immortals. 20 immortals buffed by an Overlord can kill 26 Genestealers in one round of shooting and 9 in overwatch.

For me ir looks like the best tactic for Necrons is bring hundreds of Warriors and Immortals, to kill enemy infantry and outlast/ignore the other stuff like heavy vehicles. Its now much harder to kill 20Immortals, because one hit can only bring down one model, so big guns are not scarry, and small usually dont have high str/ap.

IMO, what was done to the Warscythe is an abomination. It used to be one of the single best anti-tank weapons in the game bar none. It's now a slightly better autocannon. It's a total joke that over the course of the game it's gone from (assuming it's on a lord/overlord) S5 ignore armour+invuln 2D6 pen, to S7 ignore armour 2D6 pen, to S7 AP1 2D6 pen, and is now S7 (which is substantially weaker) AP-4 dam 2. In the original codex it was one of the best infantry killers in the game. In 5th/6th/7th, it was very good at killing everything. It's now decent at killing infantry and absolute trash against vehicles - the most it can do in a turn has reduced from instantly killing a vehicle to maybe doing half of a weak vehicles health if you get extremely lucky. Their only saving grace is that they're now cheaper than the Staff of Light and, you're often about as well off taking a 3 point Hyperphase Sword as you are taking an 11 point Warscythe, let alone the 18 point staff which is often substantially worse.

I think you're right. I'm not unconvinced that our best plan isn't just 40 warriors crowded around Orikan and an Overlord, 20 Tesla Immortals in 2 units at the back, a bunch of scarabs and Heavy Destroyers; maybe a Stalker to buff shooting. That leaves us super weak to vehicles, but we can't do much about that anyway. I'm pretty about the whole situation.

Not really. You need "only" 16 shots with a heavy destroyer to bring down a knight. They are "only" 75 points each, so thats 1200 points (same as 100 warriors).

An 8th edition 2000pts Necrons vs Blood Angels battle report for our discussion and dissection:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/6esoo7/battle_report_8th_edition_necrons_vs_blood_angels/

Arachnofiend wrote:
Erm, aren't heavy gauss cannons the necron answer to high toughness? S9 AP-4 will do some damage, a trio of heavy destroyers seems like a pretty reliable way to kill high toughness units.

You're looking at about 6 heavy destroyers to kill a 70 point Rhino or 103 point Chimera. That's 450 points of very vulnerable shooting...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MoonlightSonata wrote:
An 8th edition 2000pts Necrons vs Blood Angels battle report for our discussion and dissection:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/6esoo7/battle_report_8th_edition_necrons_vs_blood_angels/

Interesting, but a lot of incorrect rules:
-Vehicles CAN overwatch
-Can't fire out of Ghost Arks
-Can't stack Cryptek buffs (though not an issue in this game)
-Seems to imply multiple models were taken out by lascannons? Can't possibly happen, maybe was talking about chunks of wounds on vehicles?

In any case, this is about what I expected. Necrons cannot deal with vehicles and we're massively outgunned by just about everything. What a depressing read.

Eyjio wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
Erm, aren't heavy gauss cannons the necron answer to high toughness? S9 AP-4 will do some damage, a trio of heavy destroyers seems like a pretty reliable way to kill high toughness units.

You're looking at about 6 heavy destroyers to kill a 70 point Rhino or 103 point Chimera. That's 450 points of very vulnerable shooting...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MoonlightSonata wrote:
An 8th edition 2000pts Necrons vs Blood Angels battle report for our discussion and dissection:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/6esoo7/battle_report_8th_edition_necrons_vs_blood_angels/

Interesting, but a lot of incorrect rules:
-Vehicles CAN overwatch
-Can't fire out of Ghost Arks
-Can't stack Cryptek buffs (though not an issue in this game)
-Seems to imply multiple models were taken out by lascannons? Can't possibly happen, maybe was talking about chunks of wounds on vehicles?

In any case, this is about what I expected. Necrons cannot deal with vehicles and we're massively outgunned by just about everything. What a depressing read.

The new edition has been released, losses are sure to occur due to the changes in rules. necrons play differently then before, and as such the lists and tactics from before will not work as well now. I would wait for a while before making a call.
And as you said, a lot of the rules were wrong here. Gauss Cannons, for example, have AP-3, not AP-2. I would hardly call this report proof of necron weakness.

Well I mean like I said you'll only need to wait a few weeks after release for Imperial Armour: Index Xenos, and I strongly predict that it'll plug our anti-vehicle issue.

Does it suck that the codex has a massive tactical gap without a supplement and models that are either more expensive or requiring conversion effort? Yes.

Is it an unsurmountable issue? Not really.

Of course I might be biased in that I converted a pylon just before 7th was announced and never got to use it properly due to the Skyfire nerf. At this point I'll goddamn take a -1 to shooting ground targets if that's still there over having to snap fire. Still a huge buff to basic usability.

changemod wrote:
Well I mean like I said you'll only need to wait a few weeks after release for Index Xenos, and I strongly predict that it'll plug our anti-vehicle issue.

Does it suck that the codex has a massive tactical gap without a supplement and models that are either more expensive or requiring conversion effort? Yes.

Is it an unsurmountable issue? Not really.

Of course I might be biased in that I converted a pylon just before 7th was announced and never got to use it properly due to the Skyfire nerf. At this point I'll goddamn take a -1 to shooting ground targets if that's still there over having to snap fire. Still a huge buff to basic usability.

I don't think the penalty for shooting at ground targets apply. I think the penalty only applies to aerial targets, and even then it only appears to be a -1 to hit.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

changemod wrote:
Well I mean like I said you'll only need to wait a few weeks after release for Index Xenos, and I strongly predict that it'll plug our anti-vehicle issue.

Does it suck that the codex has a massive tactical gap without a supplement and models that are either more expensive or requiring conversion effort? Yes.

Is it an unsurmountable issue? Not really.

Of course I might be biased in that I converted a pylon just before 7th was announced and never got to use it properly due to the Skyfire nerf. At this point I'll goddamn take a -1 to shooting ground targets if that's still there over having to snap fire. Still a huge buff to basic usability.

I don't think the penalty for shooting at ground targets apply. I think the penalty only applies to aerial targets, and even then it only appears to be a -1 to hit.

I've seen Skyfire units in 8th that have a -1 to ground targets. Still good through, it means you can toss them in your list and even if nothing has Fly (and what has fly is -waaaaay- wider than before) you can still contribute albeit at a slight penalty.

Still, the 7th ed pylon was a over 400 point Lord of War superheavy that was stuck with 6th ed stats with Skyfire and Interceptor. It was -painful- to field.

changemod wrote:
Well I mean like I said you'll only need to wait a few weeks after release for Index Xenos, and I strongly predict that it'll plug our anti-vehicle issue.

Does it suck that the codex has a massive tactical gap without a supplement and models that are either more expensive or requiring conversion effort? Yes.

Is it an unsurmountable issue? Not really.

Of course I might be biased in that I converted a pylon just before 7th was announced and never got to use it properly due to the Skyfire nerf. At this point I'll goddamn take a -1 to shooting ground targets if that's still there over having to snap fire. Still a huge buff to basic usability.

Who said that the Necron codex will be out in the weeks following 8th? I would expect at least 6 months or more for our codex - the first ones will be Marines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, etc - they're pushing Chaos vs Imperium, right?

And you won't be able to use the Pylon at all, it's not got any rules. On the grounds that I've had one since 3rd and it's never been good, ever, I wouldn't get your hopes up too high for them.

Eyjio wrote:

changemod wrote:
Well I mean like I said you'll only need to wait a few weeks after release for Index Xenos, and I strongly predict that it'll plug our anti-vehicle issue.

Does it suck that the codex has a massive tactical gap without a supplement and models that are either more expensive or requiring conversion effort? Yes.

Is it an unsurmountable issue? Not really.

Of course I might be biased in that I converted a pylon just before 7th was announced and never got to use it properly due to the Skyfire nerf. At this point I'll goddamn take a -1 to shooting ground targets if that's still there over having to snap fire. Still a huge buff to basic usability.

Who said that the Necron codex will be out in the weeks following 8th? I would expect at least 6 months or more for our codex - the first ones will be Marines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, etc - they're pushing Chaos vs Imperium, right?

And you won't be able to use the Pylon at all, it's not got any rules. On the grounds that I've had one since 3rd and it's never been good, ever, I wouldn't get your hopes up too high for them.

Shoot missed "imperial armour index Xenos".

Though really from me talking about the Pylon you probably should have been able to work that out.

changemod wrote:
Shoot missed "imperial armour index Xenos".

Though really from me talking about the Pylon you probably should have been able to work that out.

FW rules for Necron units have never been good, barring a cheese reading of the Death Ray pylon. I seriously doubt they're going to patch up the holes in our army now. Unless the Sentry Pylons cost under 150 points, we'll continue to have a huge gap in our AT ability. Likewise, Acanthrite melta is probably just going to be a S6 AP-3 gun rerolling damage, which isn't going to help either. I'm not quite sure what you're expecting to see from them honestly.

Has anyone done the math on the points of your collection before and after 8th? My army went up by a little over 20%. I figure that this was part of their solution to shorter games.

Yeah, not going to lie, Necrons usually get shafted when it comes to forgeworld. I mean, where is my titan equivalent? My Aeonic Orb? My Abattoir? The best thing we have FW wise is a flyer that actually looks well designed.

Eyjio wrote:
IMO, what was done to the Warscythe is an abomination. It used to be one of the single best anti-tank weapons in the game bar none. It's now a slightly better autocannon. It's a total joke that over the course of the game it's gone from (assuming it's on a lord/overlord) S5 ignore armour+invuln 2D6 pen, to S7 ignore armour 2D6 pen, to S7 AP1 2D6 pen, and is now S7 (which is substantially weaker) AP-4 dam 2. In the original codex it was one of the best infantry killers in the game. In 5th/6th/7th, it was very good at killing everything. It's now decent at killing infantry and absolute trash against vehicles - the most it can do in a turn has reduced from instantly killing a vehicle to maybe doing half of a weak vehicles health if you get extremely lucky. Their only saving grace is that they're now cheaper than the Staff of Light and, you're often about as well off taking a 3 point Hyperphase Sword as you are taking an 11 point Warscythe, let alone the 18 point staff which is often substantially worse.

Personally, I think it's a shame they didn't go back to something like 4th edition (when it used to ignore both armour and invulnerable saves). They could have made each wound inflicted by a Warscythe a Mortal Wound.

I don't know if it would be powerful, but it would at least be unique and flavourful.

 vipoid wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
IMO, what was done to the Warscythe is an abomination. It used to be one of the single best anti-tank weapons in the game bar none. It's now a slightly better autocannon. It's a total joke that over the course of the game it's gone from (assuming it's on a lord/overlord) S5 ignore armour+invuln 2D6 pen, to S7 ignore armour 2D6 pen, to S7 AP1 2D6 pen, and is now S7 (which is substantially weaker) AP-4 dam 2. In the original codex it was one of the best infantry killers in the game. In 5th/6th/7th, it was very good at killing everything. It's now decent at killing infantry and absolute trash against vehicles - the most it can do in a turn has reduced from instantly killing a vehicle to maybe doing half of a weak vehicles health if you get extremely lucky. Their only saving grace is that they're now cheaper than the Staff of Light and, you're often about as well off taking a 3 point Hyperphase Sword as you are taking an 11 point Warscythe, let alone the 18 point staff which is often substantially worse.

Personally, I think it's a shame they didn't go back to something like 4th edition (when it used to ignore both armour and invulnerable saves). They could have made each wound inflicted by a Warscythe a Mortal Wound.

I don't know if it would be powerful, but it would at least be unique and flavourful.

Yeah, I wanted them to go that route a well. It could have even been a mortal wound on a 6, if they were worried about it being op. That would have been a nice nod to preward necrons.

So I was just trying to build a list for a quick test game against a friend shortly and I noticed that the Overlord/Lord/Cryptek has no option to take a Phylactery. In fact the the only HQ who gets a choice is the Destroyer Lord! WHAT!

 MoonlightSonata wrote:
So I was just trying to build a list for a quick test game against a friend shortly and I noticed that the Overlord/Lord/Cryptek has no option to take a Phylactery. In fact the the only HQ who gets a choice is the Destroyer Lord! WHAT!

Yeah, Necrons have a surprising lack of options. You can't even give your Cryptek stuff anymore. Not sure I like that.