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Having played in a major competitive event this weekend, I can confirm that DDA based builds are not competitive versus the major players in the meta.

Incoming firepower is based on VoF attacks with moderate AP (so as to overcome the high variance pitfalls of the extensive invulnerability saves in the meta), which is perfect weaponry versus DDAs.

Character-centric builds assuming safety from targeting also suffer “splash hate” meant for the various, crucial buff/aura builds out there.

DDAs are still point-for-point our best option from a mathhammer perspective, but the current meta is accidentally hating them out of viability.

FYI

Well high ROF moderate AP weapons has been AT weapon of choice for a long time.

sieGermans wrote:
Having played in a major competitive event this weekend, I can confirm that DDA based builds are not competitive versus the major players in the meta.

Incoming firepower is based on VoF attacks with moderate AP (so as to overcome the high variance pitfalls of the extensive invulnerability saves in the meta), which is perfect weaponry versus DDAs.

Character-centric builds assuming safety from targeting also suffer “splash hate” meant for the various, crucial buff/aura builds out there.

DDAs are still point-for-point our best option from a mathhammer perspective, but the current meta is accidentally hating them out of viability.

FYI

Problem is, what could we possibly replace them with? I think we just need to be cagey with them and use their huge range where possible. Also, Deceiver to get them out of/into LOS/range on first turn as required. As for characters being weak to snipers, say hello to the lychguard resurgence.

I know we're weak and the meta is pushing into a direction that makes us even weaker (grey knights MW spam is bad for us), but I just don't see what our options are?

IanVanCheese wrote:

sieGermans wrote:
Having played in a major competitive event this weekend, I can confirm that DDA based builds are not competitive versus the major players in the meta.

Incoming firepower is based on VoF attacks with moderate AP (so as to overcome the high variance pitfalls of the extensive invulnerability saves in the meta), which is perfect weaponry versus DDAs.

Character-centric builds assuming safety from targeting also suffer “splash hate” meant for the various, crucial buff/aura builds out there.

DDAs are still point-for-point our best option from a mathhammer perspective, but the current meta is accidentally hating them out of viability.

FYI

Problem is, what could we possibly replace them with? I think we just need to be cagey with them and use their huge range where possible. Also, Deceiver to get them out of/into LOS/range on first turn as required. As for characters being weak to snipers, say hello to the lychguard resurgence.

I know we're weak and the meta is pushing into a direction that makes us even weaker (grey knights MW spam is bad for us), but I just don't see what our options are?

Just don’t base your viable AT strategy on their survival is the key point I’m making. If your missions plan (ITC/ETC/other) requires actually killing the high toughness target and/or relies on mass str4 gunfire, don’t plan for your DDAs being the only route to accomplishing this.

Alternatively, chart a course to VP victory that can be accomplished by doing something else.

sieGermans wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

sieGermans wrote:
Having played in a major competitive event this weekend, I can confirm that DDA based builds are not competitive versus the major players in the meta.

Incoming firepower is based on VoF attacks with moderate AP (so as to overcome the high variance pitfalls of the extensive invulnerability saves in the meta), which is perfect weaponry versus DDAs.

Character-centric builds assuming safety from targeting also suffer “splash hate” meant for the various, crucial buff/aura builds out there.

DDAs are still point-for-point our best option from a mathhammer perspective, but the current meta is accidentally hating them out of viability.

FYI

Problem is, what could we possibly replace them with? I think we just need to be cagey with them and use their huge range where possible. Also, Deceiver to get them out of/into LOS/range on first turn as required. As for characters being weak to snipers, say hello to the lychguard resurgence.

I know we're weak and the meta is pushing into a direction that makes us even weaker (grey knights MW spam is bad for us), but I just don't see what our options are?

Just don’t base your viable AT strategy on their survival is the key point I’m making. If your missions plan (ITC/ETC/other) requires actually killing the high toughness target and/or relies on mass str4 gunfire, don’t plan for your DDAs being the only route to accomplishing this.

Alternatively, chart a course to VP victory that can be accomplished by doing something else.

Yeah that's fair, but that's basically true of any army/unit. Have redundancy built it. If you need extra heavy firepower, heavy destroyers are the way to go.

I agree on VP route being our best bet too. We can potentially hold the centre of the board with some tough to shift units. I think we can safely put the nail in the doom scythe half of the doom six though (finally).

In 8th don't count on any 3 units being irreplaceable and assume they will survive enemy turn if they are visible. Well knights have to asume 1 on open will go. If 3 knights go down in turn game's lost anyway.

40k lf unit is visible it'" dead if opponent wants bar some exceptions(characters being prime one and some units like 10 paladins are tanky enough they can actually survive)

Hi.

I'm starting to learn necrons because of his looking and lore, I want to play them despite they're not very competitive in this meta, I don't really care, in tournaments I just play orks, I just want to play necrons because I like them.

I want to build this list for random matches.



Is this list any good? Will I lose absolutely all the matches? Any tips?
I would have some FO and deathmarks in DR, with veil of darkness I would be able to surprise my rival in turn 2 and grab some objectives, with 3 DDA I should be able to knock down the heavyweights of the rival, and then I've got 5 units of immortals, some scarabs and 20 necron warriors for grabbing objectives. For fast attack and doing some damage, I've got 9 tomb blades, 1 DS

I play tournaments with orks but I'm SUPER NOOB necron, so there must be things I'm saying and are wrong, sorry for that

I would scale down for battalion. CP good but not THAT good and you want bigger squads with necrrons generally. Necron elites generally are just bad tax and for scythes 3 or 0 is common wisdom.

Thanks.

I made a batallion, put some wraith and destroyers, and some invuls to tomb Blades. I shouldn't be that weak against Alpha strikes first turn now.



I find this list quite resistant against dakka, a lot of RP, invul... but I don't find any special weapon for killing primaris, I supose going Gauss is good due to -2.

Note 3+ is generally better. It's same or better as 5++ vs -2 or less and lascannons etc are bit of waste vs tb. Couple 5++ does the trick. 3+ and ignore cover for rest.

Myself i would drop flyer and bolster destroyers that are bloody amazing swiss knife.

Tesla for immortals, and gauss for tomb blades, also add shieldvanes for them. Not every model needs a shadowloom. Get rid of the doom scythe and the warriors. Get some scarabs, increase wraith to 6. Two destroyers arent worth it, get rid if them, or max them.

Oki doki, will change tomb blades gear and remove the flyer, thanks

Having only 3 DDAs is unreliable for anti-Vehicle in scenarios involving Knights/etc., just FYI.

As per prior discussion, you should probably still play them, pero lo más probable es que tendrás que también jugar para puntos en vez de asumiendo que van a resolver todo lo que encontrarás.

So, played an ITC game vs the New Iron Hands, fought them to a draw, had a couple of thoughts.

The reduction of firepower honestly is only slight.
It is actually possible to kill the leviathan dreadnought anchoring the formation. (Specifically using doomsday arks and d6 weapons, destroyers kinda fell flat)
We can actually use better range on our AT to make them have to move to get targets, which impacts their BS now. Its handy.

I'm now of the opinion, that 40K ITC is now all-alpha-strike-all-the-time. With seize in the game, poor players would assume that either they were definitely going first, set up a huge alpha-strike then whine and complain that someone seized.

The better players would deploy aggressively, but still with the assumption that they might not actually go first, and so had a recoverable position in for that 1/6 chance.

Now, you know 100% that you're going first, and so can deploy in the most aggressive possible position to do the most damage on turn one before the opponent has any response other than trying to hide. With 32" flying assaults in the game, and grey knights doing damage + movement in the psychic phase, screening isn't even enough any more. So, my suggestion is go for maximum alpha strike, and the first roll of the game determines the winner.

Hopefully people will see the results of this sooner rather than later. When people talk about removing luck from the first turn roll, I don't think they understand how they've now made the first turn roll even more luck dependent.

To pull this back to Necrons, I'll be moving away from Wraiths (sadly, as they are my favorite models) and toward heavy destroyers and other mobile ranged units.

With Sappers and Nilakh, 2+invulnerability wraiths are better, even key, in ITC now. Just don't count on them as killing units. There to contest/score/render unscoreable while the rest of your army applies pressure and kills at range.

 DogHeadGod wrote:
With Sappers and Nilakh, 2+invulnerability wraiths are better, even key, in ITC now. Just don't count on them as killing units. There to contest/score/render unscoreable while the rest of your army applies pressure and kills at range.

You can’t Nihilakh buff Wraiths before the opponent’s turn if you’re going second.

sieGermans wrote:

 DogHeadGod wrote:
With Sappers and Nilakh, 2+invulnerability wraiths are better, even key, in ITC now. Just don't count on them as killing units. There to contest/score/render unscoreable while the rest of your army applies pressure and kills at range.

You can’t Nihilakh buff Wraiths before the opponent’s turn if you’re going second.

Nihilakh and Sappers won't interact until turn 3 unless you are nerfing your own objectives. By then the tempo of the game has already been set, so having a 250 point combat unit doing literally nothing isn't a good plan. In most cases it's easier/better to kill your opponent, or to simply hold the objective in the first place, and every scenario I can come up with, Sappers just isn't worth it IMO.

I'm looking forward to seeing someone use sappers effectively and proving me wrong. I'd love to hear "Those Wraith Sappers are just OP!"

barontuman wrote:

sieGermans wrote:

 DogHeadGod wrote:
With Sappers and Nilakh, 2+invulnerability wraiths are better, even key, in ITC now. Just don't count on them as killing units. There to contest/score/render unscoreable while the rest of your army applies pressure and kills at range.

You can’t Nihilakh buff Wraiths before the opponent’s turn if you’re going second.

Nihilakh and Sappers won't interact until turn 3 unless you are nerfing your own objectives. By then the tempo of the game has already been set, so having a 250 point combat unit doing literally nothing isn't a good plan. In most cases it's easier/better to kill your opponent, or to simply hold the objective in the first place, and every scenario I can come up with, Sappers just isn't worth it IMO.

I'm looking forward to seeing someone use sappers effectively and proving me wrong. I'd love to hear "Those Wraith Sappers are just OP!"

If you can't hide your Wraiths from a turn 1 alpha strike you don't have enough terrain. I've been using Nihilakh Wraiths a lot lately and haven't had a problem with them getting shot off the table, in fact I haven't lost them in more than 3/6 in my last four games, I think the only fear you should have is the SM Tremor Shells Stratagem.

Sappers is very wordy and a little weird so I'm not at all sure how it's supposed to be played, but it definitely doesn't prevent you from scoring the objective and it doesn't allow you to sap objectives in your DZ. Can your opponent not contest since they cannot score it? Can you sap an objective and immediately afterwards score a point for having 1+ sapped objectives? If the answer is yes to both of those you can advance and charge in your Wraiths and wrestle an objective out of a big unit of Troops, grab the 2++ and the hold the objective until your opponent's fight phase turn 1. Assuming you're going second this could potentially be very easy to get hold more. 3x3 Scarabs + 3x3 Wraiths could make for easy recon T2/3 by rushing out two units on each side of the board and keeping the rest of your army more or less central so you're sure you can have 2 units in each of your "home" corners.

Looking a bit more closely at it, I can see how it was misinterpreted at my last RTT.

You can move, charge, attack, and then at the end of your turn, activate the sappers rule. It only means that the opponent cannot score it, not that you automatically score it. This continues during the opponents next turn, unless they charge you and make you fight.

You can definitely still score it under normal conditions, and it doesn't conflict with holding one or more. Sappers appears to be particularly good if you are going second, because you can steal away the "hold more" without retribution.

As for playing with "enough" terrain, when you travel to various tournaments, you're at the mercy of the venue when it comes to having enough. And having enough to hide all your units (wraiths are the last ones that get to hide) is quite unlikely.

barontuman wrote:
Looking a bit more closely at it, I can see how it was misinterpreted at my last RTT.

You can move, charge, attack, and then at the end of your turn, activate the sappers rule. It only means that the opponent cannot score it, not that you automatically score it. This continues during the opponents next turn, unless they charge you and make you fight.

You can definitely still score it under normal conditions, and it doesn't conflict with holding one or more. Sappers appears to be particularly good if you are going second, because you can steal away the "hold more" without retribution.

As for playing with "enough" terrain, when you travel to various tournaments, you're at the mercy of the venue when it comes to having enough. And having enough to hide all your units (wraiths are the last ones that get to hide) is quite unlikely.

Echoing the terrain comments here: LVO, GW and the other major tournaments definitely don’t offer enough terrain to hide all Wraiths. I “get” you can do the ‘hide the last one(s)’ trick for shooting, but that’s not going to save you from Combat.

Just watched Necrons killing Guard.

Love to see it.

I think Guard are one of our best matchups to be honest, our big guns just melt their tanks and Tesla/gauss flayers means we can clear the infantry super quickly too. I don't think I've lost a game to them this edition.

Had my first game (Nova 19 rules) with my new Nihilakh list, but it was against a weird GSC list with 9 ridgerunners and three hellhounds. They cleared my immortals pretty effectively, but just couldn't chew through the lychguard or wraiths.

My Deceiver got demo charged to hell, which is what happens everytime I bring a C'Tan vs GSC. Overall I'm liking the list, but want to see how it handles real firepower. It doesn't give up many easy secondaries though, which is nice.

Another practice game under my belt with the Nihilakh Shieldguard list, this time against Ad Mech. Format was NOVA 2019 rules

My List:


Ad Mech List:



Managed to pull out the win (23-18). Hammer and Anvil. Ad Mech went first, I gambled and deceivered the lychguard into cover in the middle of the board and they tanked the entire army's shooting thanks to a 2+/3++ . I lost 4 in the end I think. My turn I veiled up the destroyers and between them and the Arks I popped all three Scorpius. Couple of lychguard came back, then they and the wraiths wrapped and trapped a transport boat that goat too close in his turn. His drills turned up in his turn 2. I lost an Ark to priests (shooting and combat) Destroyers got smoked. From here it was just attrition. I started to run out of firepower and CP, so my tough units started to get chipped away. He blew up one of his drills when I killed it to finish off an injured Ark (mistake on my part for leaving it so close). But ultimately, I'd kept him pinned in and denied him enough secondaries to pull off the win.

Takeaways: Lychguard still can't kill a small piglet in combat, but they're bloody tough to shift. In objective games, they certainly have a place. Overlord felt useless without good buffing targets and was too slow to keep up once the lychguard had been deceivered. Considering trying to swap him for a CCB. Wraiths are quick and annoying, but also struggled to kill hard targets. I love the resiliency of the list, but wish it had more teeth.

IanVanCheese wrote:
Takeaways: Lychguard still can't kill a small piglet in combat, but they're bloody tough to shift. In objective games, they certainly have a place. Overlord felt useless without good buffing targets and was too slow to keep up once the lychguard had been deceivered. Considering trying to swap him for a CCB. Wraiths are quick and annoying, but also struggled to kill hard targets. I love the resiliency of the list, but wish it had more teeth.

I will probably try your list in the future as i love the idea

I really hope PA give us a way to boost Lychguard damage though.
Tomorrow i'll try a list with some scythe Lychguard as some sort of counter-charge unit. I only play in a friendly environment (ETC format), with a lot of power armor, and i'm quite bored with being "free" in close combat (Tsons demon princes/maulerfiend/heldrakes, SM Invictors/characters) so i want to try something else than just fly away and shoot. List is far from perfect but i want to give it a test.

My List :


I only play 2 DDA because i'm lazy to build the last one (as i want to paint it before assembly), but i hesitate to swap the Heavy Destroyer and some lychguard for a DDA.
I still play the Doomscythes even if they are vulnerable to lose one T1 as i find them useful even without the strat for various uses (big footprint, character kill, small units on backfield objectives).

Shaelinith wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Takeaways: Lychguard still can't kill a small piglet in combat, but they're bloody tough to shift. In objective games, they certainly have a place. Overlord felt useless without good buffing targets and was too slow to keep up once the lychguard had been deceivered. Considering trying to swap him for a CCB. Wraiths are quick and annoying, but also struggled to kill hard targets. I love the resiliency of the list, but wish it had more teeth.

I will probably try your list in the future as i love the idea

I really hope PA give us a way to boost Lychguard damage though.
Tomorrow i'll try a list with some scythe Lychguard as some sort of counter-charge unit. I only play in a friendly environment (ETC format), with a lot of power armor, and i'm quite bored with being "free" in close combat (Tsons demon princes/maulerfiend/heldrakes, SM Invictors/characters) so i want to try something else than just fly away and shoot. List is far from perfect but i want to give it a test.

My List :

Spoiler:

Sautekh Batallion
Imotekh
Lord with voidblade/resorb and Veil

3 x 5 Tesla immortals

Deceiver
8 Lychguard with Warscythe

6 Destroyers with 1 Heavy Destroyer

2 DDA
3 Heavy Destroyers

Sautekh Air Wing
3 Doomscythes

I only play 2 DDA because i'm lazy to build the last one (as i want to paint it before assembly), but i hesitate to swap the Heavy Destroyer and some lychguard for a DDA.
I still play the Doomscythes even if they are vulnerable to lose one T1 as i find them useful even without the strat for various uses (big footprint, character kill, small units on backfield objectives).

Yeah if you're attached to the Doom Scythes, there isn't much wiggle room in the list. But if you dropped them, you could get the third DDA and another 6 heavy destroyers/another full lychguard blob/Tomb Blades.

How do you find the Scytheguard? I know they hit harder, but I find they die before the reach combat unless they veil and hope for the 8" charge. On top of that, their damage output still just seems OK.

The weaknesses of my list are lack of screening and firepower. I can fix one problem or the other... maybe. I need to see how the meta swings before I decide which issue to fix.

I still maintain that lychguard are primarily a defensive unit and not an offensive unit, hence their high defensive stats and wound interception ability. You want them to stick close to your HQ units at all times in case of those pesky snipers. As they are defensive you don't have to worry about getting a transport, but it does mean that maxing out squads is a waste of points. Having scythe guard escort a chronotek would give them an invul as well as the RP bonus.

I really hope they give Lychguard heroic intervention. That would solidify their role as a counter-charge unit.

I agree that they are defensive, but not in the way you suggest. Our characters are barely worth protecting tbh, they're the biggest tax in our book.

Lychguard, for me anyway, are ground holders. You throw them onto an objective and dare your opponent to come take it away from you. If they do, they'll expend huge resources shooting them and probably still fail to kill them.

IanVanCheese wrote:
I agree that they are defensive, but not in the way you suggest. Our characters are barely worth protecting tbh, they're the biggest tax in our book.

Lychguard, for me anyway, are ground holders. You throw them onto an objective and dare your opponent to come take it away from you. If they do, they'll expend huge resources shooting them and probably still fail to kill them.

Using them as a backline / objective guard is handy, yes.
I mentioned character protection, because you don't want to give up first blood or warlord.
Our characters may be crap compared to everyone else's, but they still provide buffs and they still give away VP upon death

IanVanCheese wrote:

sieGermans wrote:
Having played in a major competitive event this weekend, I can confirm that DDA based builds are not competitive versus the major players in the meta.

Incoming firepower is based on VoF attacks with moderate AP (so as to overcome the high variance pitfalls of the extensive invulnerability saves in the meta), which is perfect weaponry versus DDAs.

Character-centric builds assuming safety from targeting also suffer “splash hate” meant for the various, crucial buff/aura builds out there.

DDAs are still point-for-point our best option from a mathhammer perspective, but the current meta is accidentally hating them out of viability.

FYI

Problem is, what could we possibly replace them with? I think we just need to be cagey with them and use their huge range where possible. Also, Deceiver to get them out of/into LOS/range on first turn as required. As for characters being weak to snipers, say hello to the lychguard resurgence.

I know we're weak and the meta is pushing into a direction that makes us even weaker (grey knights MW spam is bad for us), but I just don't see what our options are?

Why not replace them with heavy destroyers? Especially in the ITC now that big game is based on how many wounds are delt and not model destruction. HD's have already been discussed so we know the advantages, plus they are much cheaper which would give you your points to shuffle detachments or upgrade to a CCB.

The gaus flayer arrays are nice, but they are very match up dependent and if I am honest seem to do less and less lately. The main gun is nice but just too random overall. I hate rolling low when I need high and then finally rolling 6 shots and pouring 15+ damage on that model that has only a few wounds left. At least HD's always have 3 shots and they basically come stock with both the sauhtek and Nihilak trait lol.

Sorry I know I am a tad late on this but wanted to chime in.