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H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:...but to do so in a single book is the real problem.

No it's not.
It's been done.

Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Word Bearers all got a page in the 3.5 'Dex. Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Death Guard all got roughly 2 pages (plus a special char) as they chose to put all the God-specific Wargear/Psychic powers in that section rather than with the rest of the armoury.

And it was far and away the worst mess GW ever put out.

Fixed that for you...

protonhunter wrote:So wait if I want to get a special rool I have to build my army a certain way?

I'm absolutly fine with making a thousand sons army, I just don't want to not be able to take oblitorators. If I can and you want to give me some other special rule with no draw backs I'm fine. But handing out special rules with draw backs is stupid... my 2 cents

There has to be a drawback otherwise there is a drawback to not taking the special rule.

TalonZahn wrote:Mythos must just skip right over my posts.

The Space Marine Codex ALREADY does this.

Why can the CSM Codex not do the same?

Taking Lysander, Pedro, Vulkan, etc. removes NOTHING from the SM army list in the way of models or units. It merely substitutes certain rules (already in the game) for other rules. This is turn gives each variation some amount of flavor.

Why can't FOC slots be slid around by increasing one while decreasing another, remove some demonic gift here and replace it with relentless there, etc. etc. etc.

It's really not that hard.

Sorry, I didn't address your post directly. In general I think in response directly to you I'd reiterate this:

aka_mythos wrote:...I think its incredibly difficult to both balance doing the concept of each legion justice while simultaneously restricting the rules to a special characters, an HQ, or individual pages... you're still talking about 8 or 9 different sets of rules that should fundamentally alter the way the army plays....

...I want to see several separate books for Chaos but in the absence of that I don't think its worth characterizing each legion in such a narrow way. While I believe the Legions should be better represented I don't really have an interest in playing such a narrowly described army. I play Ravenguard and never use Kayvaan, I play Emperors Children and never use Lucius...why should my army be so narrowly defined by a single page. In 3.5ed, I wanted to play a Iron Warriors army with Cultists... this codex will let me do what the 3.5ed one didn't. The free form format allows the player to dictate the narrative of their army, as opposed to the expectation that GW should say "every _____ army is pretty much this."

Additionally, while I like the characters in C:SM I don't like their characterization of their chapters and I think if GW treated Chaos in exactly the same way I'd be more disappointed. Such a minimal effort doesn't seem worthwhile.

Zweischneid wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:...but to do so in a single book is the real problem.

No it's not.
It's been done.

Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Word Bearers all got a page in the 3.5 'Dex. Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Death Guard all got roughly 2 pages (plus a special char) as they chose to put all the God-specific Wargear/Psychic powers in that section rather than with the rest of the armoury.

And it was far and away the worst mess GW ever put out.

Fixed that for you...

What exactly made it worse than any other codex that GW has put out? There may have been a problem with allowing four heavy support choices in one army, but I never noticed it since I didn't play Iron Warriors. Even if GW want to continue with their policy of streamlining codices for no reason, it'd leave at most sixteen pages in the codex that someone wouldn't use if they went with a single legion; one page each for legion specific rules, one page if they gave every legion a SC. I'm pretty sure that there are more than sixteen pages of SCs in the vanilla SM codex, and someone going with a single chapter wouldn't touch those either.

aka_mythos wrote:Additionally, while I like the characters in C:SM I don't like their characterization of their chapters and I think if GW treated Chaos in exactly the same way I'd be more disappointed. Such a minimal effort doesn't seem worthwhile.

So you ARE reading all the posts.

I also mentioned that. However, I would settle for anything over nothing.

The special rules aren't always army wide either. They affect a few units or even a specfic unit. I just don't buy the "we don't have room" or " we don't want to exclude models" argument though. It's obvious they want to sell more minis and that's why allies are here again. Personally, I'm more likely to buy more models if they can be properly included and used by my armies of choice. Not just some bolted on crap.

There has to be a medium between 3.5 and the current book that GW can settle on. It would just take a few extra pages IMHO and they are just too lazy to do it.

Additionally, while I like the characters in C:SM I don't like their characterization of their chapters and I think if GW treated Chaos in exactly the same way I'd be more disappointed. Such a minimal effort doesn't seem worthwhile.

Yes because I'd rather have some minimal effort over Complete and Utter Nothing

Because pretty much the issue is this, I cannot take actual equipment for my non-cult units to represent my army. My havocs likely aren't going to get blastmasters, my terminators not doomsirens and sonic blasters.

So pretty much the only way to play is Black Legion, and as much as I enjoy them that noise.

There is no such things as an Emporers Children Warband led by a Khorn Warrior, that's simply another Black Legion warband. Bezerkers led by a sorcerer? Black Legion.

The codex would be perfect as an actual Black Legion codex. For the rest of us who actually want their little blurb, or special character bonus to their army just to show even the hint of flavor, the hint of choice, the hint of something deeper beyond. "There's nothing to represent your legion at all, have a Black Legion Warband for all your troubles!"

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Additionally, while I like the characters in C:SM I don't like their characterization of their chapters and I think if GW treated Chaos in exactly the same way I'd be more disappointed. Such a minimal effort doesn't seem worthwhile.

Yes because I'd rather have some minimal effort over Complete and Utter Nothing

Because pretty much the issue is this, I cannot take actual equipment for my non-cult units to represent my army. My havocs likely aren't going to get blastmasters, my terminators not doomsirens and sonic blasters.

So pretty much the only way to play is Black Legion, and as much as I enjoy them that noise.

There is no such things as an Emporers Children Warband led by a Khorn Warrior, that's simply another Black Legion warband. Bezerkers led by a sorcerer? Black Legion.

The codex would be perfect as an actual Black Legion codex. For the rest of us who actually want their little blurb, or special character bonus to their army just to show even the hint of flavor, the hint of choice, the hint of something deeper beyond. "There's nothing to represent your legion at all, have a Black Legion Warband for all your troubles!"

In fairness, they could also pass as Word Bearers if you didn't know the Word Bearers very well.

Certain combinations can't work (usually revolving around Khorne). But Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Alpha Legion more or less can have any combination. There are sorcerers of Nurgle even though Nurgle is the enemy God of Tzeentch. There are Noise Marines in the Word Bearers. There are bezerker Iron Warriors.

Yes, the codex will probably be based around Black Legion as the "vanilla", but for the CSM Legions to maintain their fluff and individuality this is necessary.

CSM 3.5 wasn't a fraction as bad as 7th ed fantasy vampire counts & chaos deamons. Anytime somebody claims 3.5 csm was the most overpowered book ever released by gw their credibility goes out the window. 3.5 csm wasn't any worse than gk were in 5th ed (turns out they were really a balanced 6th ed book), and csm 4th ed was way more broken in 4th ed than 3.5 was. Duel lash + oblits + pm utterly dominated the 4th ed meta, and the csm community was unhappy with their 1 single power build because most csm players don't play black legion.

That being said gw tends to be more streamlined now. What csm players want is the variety and fluff of 3.5 with the streamlined rules of 5th ed codex sm.

There are bezerker Iron Warriors.

Could there be Berzerker iron warriors? Yes, but they would not be troops and be regulated to elite, thus is the way of Chaos Undivided. However unless Warsmiths are actual HQ's, they cannot even be compromised as that, as a full Warsmith is supposed to be akin to a Chapter Master in rank of a Grand Iron Warrior Company. Warsmiths as it sounds like now is more akin to a Techpriest Enginseer, or an elite based Techmarine.

There are sorcerers of Nurgle even though Nurgle is the enemy God of Tzeentch.

The warp is not completely under the command of Tzeentch, it beckons to those who call, and the only exception is Khorne, who you usually have to revoke your sorcerers ways or be punished by him.

There are Noise Marines in the Word Bearers.

The only real way this can happen is if it is a mercenary Warband that has decided to join up, unlike berzerkers who can come from any creed that show an intense devotion to Khorne, Noise Marines are nearly exclusive to Slaaneshi based warbands such as the Emporer's Children, or the Flawless host.

Basically i just hope that the dex is well written with lots of different competative but not OP builds.

If it is OP then neckbeards will swarm to the new dex like fleas, and long term chaos players will be associated in the minds of others with the legion of neckbeards all playing hastily assembled grey plastic minis of doom. This i do not welcome readily.

If legions get a nod via special characters that unlock unit types as troops I will be happy. I think the way that they did it with C:SM was well done. There are so many people wishlisting different stuff that it is likely that GW will upset a portion of the player base, no matter what they do. We are all so set in our proverbial ways.

I am still really looking forward to the release of this dex. If cultists can take marks and be formed up in powerblobs i will be really happy. And ... if as rumored TYphus will turn said cultist blob into zombies i will be overjoyed.

Either way, Chaos needs a new dex and some new units and models will be fun.

Sorry my last post was meant to be snarky and point out that no matter what happens there will probably be 1 or 2 power builds and every other chapter will feel butthurt that it wasn't them.

My main point. Half the legions are in warbands though. Even if you say that can't be the excuse for everything it is an excuse for a lot of the broken up factions, and we're sorry that you don't like being shoe horned into black legion but I really don't care that you want another page cluttering up the book for extra special rules dedicated to specific legions that for the most part don't have a solid composition anymore. We can't even do the chose this HQ and get this because half our HQ's are exiled from their own legion. If you feel so dedicated to fluff that you need to build your own Iron Warriors legion do so and make up rules for them there problem solved. You're not asking to have legions be competitive anyway so why do you need to bring them to tournaments? Again make your own rules and role with it.

protonhunter wrote:Sorry my last post was meant to be snarky and point out that no matter what happens there will probably be 1 or 2 power builds and every other chapter will feel butthurt that it wasn't them.

My main point. Half the legions are in warbands though. Even if you say that can't be the excuse for everything it is an excuse for a lot of the broken up factions, and we're sorry that you don't like being shoe horned into black legion but I really don't care that you want another page cluttering up the book for extra special rules dedicated to specific legions that for the most part don't have a solid composition anymore. We can't even do the chose this HQ and get this because half our HQ's are exiled from their own legion. If you feel so dedicated to fluff that you need to build your own Iron Warriors legion do so and make up rules for them there problem solved. You're not asking to have legions be competitive anyway so why do you need to bring them to tournaments? Again make your own rules and role with it.

Did I ever once say I asked them to not be competitive? Did I say I wanted them to become some weak sort of trash that would be overshadowed by even the worthless 4.0 dex? I'm sorry but no, I want them competitive, I want them strong, I want them to be like 4.0 orks, decent even two editions above and still worthwhile within the editions. I like my fluff, but I want them competitive as well with decent options and various equipment, like any actual codex should be.

But I still want my legion rules to return, so I will simply disagree with your opinion on that.

Zweischneid wrote:Fixed that for you...

Total bull gak.

Please get lost if you've nothing interesting to contribute.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

protonhunter wrote:Sorry my last post was meant to be snarky and point out that no matter what happens there will probably be 1 or 2 power builds and every other chapter will feel butthurt that it wasn't them.

My main point. Half the legions are in warbands though. Even if you say that can't be the excuse for everything it is an excuse for a lot of the broken up factions, and we're sorry that you don't like being shoe horned into black legion but I really don't care that you want another page cluttering up the book for extra special rules dedicated to specific legions that for the most part don't have a solid composition anymore. We can't even do the chose this HQ and get this because half our HQ's are exiled from their own legion. If you feel so dedicated to fluff that you need to build your own Iron Warriors legion do so and make up rules for them there problem solved. You're not asking to have legions be competitive anyway so why do you need to bring them to tournaments? Again make your own rules and role with it.

Did I ever once say I asked them to not be competitive? Did I say I wanted them to become some weak sort of trash that would be overshadowed by even the worthless 4.0 dex? I'm sorry but no, I want them competitive, I want them strong, I want them to be like 4.0 orks, decent even two editions above and still worthwhile within the editions. I like my fluff, but I want them competitive as well with decent options and various equipment, like any actual codex should be.

But I still want my legion rules to return, so I will simply disagree with your opinion on that.

Yea, I'm going to have to agree with Zebio here.

I mean, your whole argument (proto) is 50% based on strawmans (Legions are now Warbands) and 50% based on "I don't care, and your crap clutters up my book.".

If you actually believe the majority of what you posted, you need to read up on 40k Lore a lot more. The names I used in my posts are from 999.M41 which is right around.... now in the 40k universe.

As it stands we will just have to agree to disagree.

Unless of course you want to come back with an actual argument based in reality.

Right because an extra page of useful rules really clutters up the book. Unlike the pages and pages of recycled artwork that isn't even in color.

The issue is that even by modest estimates it's 9-15 pages set aside... that's 10+% of the book. GW can't even get everything about a single unit onto a single page anymore so I'm only inclined to believe the page count would climb and GW decide it won't fit bring it back to where it is.

How many pages are the fantasy hardback books now? That's probably the typical region they're going to shoot for page number wise.

Mind you, not being a chaos player, the way I see it, is the best way to do legion-ey stuff, is to take the space marine special characters chapter bonuses and chuck it under the Chaos Lord entry. If the Imperial Guard Command HQ Squad can have a page worth of options (including several different thematic 'styles' eg carapace, camo cloaks), I don't see why Chaos couldn't.

Then you add in all the more unusual characters that may do some of the same things, EG the Warsmiths.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:Fixed that for you...

Total bull gak.

Please get lost if you've nothing interesting to contribute.

QFT.

The 3.5 dex was arguably overpowered/complex, but that was because of the immense number of stacking options that each character had access to.

It had nothing to do with the Legion rules, which made simple tweaks/restrictions that were rewarded with bonuses and a thematic army.

aka_mythos wrote:The issue is that even by modest estimates it's 9-15 pages set aside... that's 10+% of the book.

And what we can't figure out is where you're pulling this figure from because - again - it's already been done. Cut out the wargear, which we know would be scattered around the book and then the rest put into a wargear section, we're looking at 1 page per Legion (which if you take out Wargear and Special Chars is exactly what it was in 3.5). That's 8 pages. It's not exactly difficult.

Your dilemmas, mythos, are false ones - obstacles of conjecture that you've constructed for yourself when they don't need to be there. 1 page per Legion is it.

1. Two paragraphs summarising the Legion’s history with the Heresy.
2. Two paragraphs to update them to 999.M41.
3. Two paragraphs to explain their fighting style.
(That’s the first column on the page taken care of).
4. Section for special organisational rules.
5. Section for special rules.
6. Potential option/s if there are any that should be kept to that page.

Remove one or two paragraphs of flavour text for any required B&W sketches.

Stick a fork in it – it’s done!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The issue is that even by modest estimates it's 9-15 pages set aside... that's 10+% of the book.

And what we can't figure out is where you're pulling this figure from because - again - it's already been done. Cut out the wargear, which we know would be scattered around the book and then the rest put into a wargear section, we're looking at 1 page per Legion (which if you take out Wargear and Special Chars is exactly what it was in 3.5). That's 8 pages. It's not exactly difficult.

Your dilemmas, mythos, are false ones - obstacles of conjecture that you've constructed for yourself when they don't need to be there. 1 page per Legion is it.
...

First I don't necessarily believe that goes far enough to representing the Legions. Considering that the book already contains the distinctive untis of each Legion, the difference between this book and 3.5ed is what a single USR? *Shrug* maybe thats arguement for why it'd be easy to fit it in but I think the Chaos Legions should be more than that.

Second, its not my false dilemma, its GW's self imposed dilemma... I think GW is the main obstacle, where they are dictating design philosphy and format such that presently the way they would present it wouldn't necessarily fit in a single book.

aka_mythos wrote:GW can't even get everything about a single unit onto a single page anymore so I'm only inclined to believe the page count would climb and GW decide it won't fit...

Could it be cut down, edited, reformatted, scaled, or otherwise modified to work?-Yes, but I'm trying to say such a version wouldn't be in line with how GW presents army changing rules.

Not only would it be just 8 pages, but those 8 pages would be the best part of the book in the eyes of a huge swathe of the people they want to sell it to. If GW really can't afford the paper they should cut back elsewhere.

I don't see how anyone could argue against the book accommodating the number one request from CSM players in addition to the existing bland mix and match affair. Are they afraid that allowing the mere possibility of a themed list would make their lists look bad?

I think it's fairly uncontroversial to say that if the book doesn't allow the fielding of proper themed legion lists, while also allowing existing unthemed lists, then it is a failure. There's nothing stopping them from doing this. They've done it before.

Alas in recent years they've shown themselves quite willing to make similarly baffling mistakes. I've noticed a number of complaints now that allies are back that you can't build a generic Inquisitorial force without also including a mandatory squad of Grey Knights. It wouldn't have undermined Grey Knight players one bit to have simply allowed the possibility of straight inquisitorial forces, but they put in a restriction that invalidated everyone who'd gone that way in the previous codex. It seems that there are people at GW that not only have a preferred vision for each faction, but want to actively stamp out the alternatives.

But then here you have people arguing that bland mix and match lists should be the only ones possible, because it would be restrictive to also include 8 pages of rules to build themed lists. Bonkers.

Temujin wrote:Not only would it be just 8 pages, but those 8 pages would be the best part of the book in the eyes of a huge swathe of the people they want to sell it to. If GW really can't afford the paper they should cut back elsewhere.

I don't see how anyone could argue against the book accommodating the number one request from CSM players in addition to the existing bland mix and match affair. Are they afraid that allowing the mere possibility of a themed list would make their lists look bad?

I think it's fairly uncontroversial to say that if the book doesn't allow the fielding of proper themed legion lists, while also allowing existing unthemed lists, then it is a failure. There's nothing stopping them from doing this. They've done it before.

I think it is baffling GW doesn't do a Legion book to accomodate fans... Then again what's "proper"... its easy to say legions should be in the book but what exactly, beyond what is in the book are people asking for? They've included cultists, dark apostles, and warsmiths... things that traditionally identified 3 legions... they have markable units... they're allowing certain characters to make Cult marines troops... The stuff thats lacking from 3.5 codex is separate fluff (which could always still be in the book), veteran skills... daemons and strict cult terminators. It isn't that much and it really is just a case of GW leaving it upto players to make their theme. I do believe that they believe they're trying to be accomodating, I just don't believe those relatively small additions add anything of thematic importance.

TalonZahn wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

protonhunter wrote:Sorry my last post was meant to be snarky and point out that no matter what happens there will probably be 1 or 2 power builds and every other chapter will feel butthurt that it wasn't them.

My main point. Half the legions are in warbands though. Even if you say that can't be the excuse for everything it is an excuse for a lot of the broken up factions, and we're sorry that you don't like being shoe horned into black legion but I really don't care that you want another page cluttering up the book for extra special rules dedicated to specific legions that for the most part don't have a solid composition anymore. We can't even do the chose this HQ and get this because half our HQ's are exiled from their own legion. If you feel so dedicated to fluff that you need to build your own Iron Warriors legion do so and make up rules for them there problem solved. You're not asking to have legions be competitive anyway so why do you need to bring them to tournaments? Again make your own rules and role with it.

Did I ever once say I asked them to not be competitive? Did I say I wanted them to become some weak sort of trash that would be overshadowed by even the worthless 4.0 dex? I'm sorry but no, I want them competitive, I want them strong, I want them to be like 4.0 orks, decent even two editions above and still worthwhile within the editions. I like my fluff, but I want them competitive as well with decent options and various equipment, like any actual codex should be.

But I still want my legion rules to return, so I will simply disagree with your opinion on that.

Yea, I'm going to have to agree with Zebio here.

I mean, your whole argument (proto) is 50% based on strawmans (Legions are now Warbands) and 50% based on "I don't care, and your crap clutters up my book.".

If you actually believe the majority of what you posted, you need to read up on 40k Lore a lot more. The names I used in my posts are from 999.M41 which is right around.... now in the 40k universe.

As it stands we will just have to agree to disagree.

Unless of course you want to come back with an actual argument based in reality.

My arguement is 50% strawmans aka some of the legions aren't a cohesive fighting force any more with out central leadership and therefore world eaters legion rules unlocked by simply chosing Kharne the Betrayer would be stupid because 1 they don't fight as a team and 2 because KHARNE DOES NOT LEAD THEM. I am totally against special rules being unlocked just because you say that it's a certain legion or because you painted them blue gold so they must be 1k sons (sorry can't use Ahriman he's not apart of the legion anymore). You should have to fufill a certain requirments such as taking a specific HQ that's not just a chaos champion model that you desided this 1 game to have the wargear that unlocks that legion.

The other 50% is me saying, yes, stop cluttering up the rule book with a (at minimum) 8 page section most players wont use and is impractical to impliment. Not only that but if you intend for HQ's to unlock these legions you need 8 new HQ choices with 8 new models with 8 more pages (maybe 7 typhus could arguably still be with the death guard). There is also no way either that they wouldn't give black legion led by failbandon extra special rules too so that's another at least 2 pages here IMHO cuz they'z the coolest. So we've racked up a total of 18 pages here guys?

aka_mythos wrote:

Temujin wrote:Not only would it be just 8 pages, but those 8 pages would be the best part of the book in the eyes of a huge swathe of the people they want to sell it to. If GW really can't afford the paper they should cut back elsewhere.

I don't see how anyone could argue against the book accommodating the number one request from CSM players in addition to the existing bland mix and match affair. Are they afraid that allowing the mere possibility of a themed list would make their lists look bad?

I think it's fairly uncontroversial to say that if the book doesn't allow the fielding of proper themed legion lists, while also allowing existing unthemed lists, then it is a failure. There's nothing stopping them from doing this. They've done it before.

I think it is baffling GW doesn't do a Legion book to accomodate fans... Then again what's "proper"... its easy to say legions should be in the book but what exactly, beyond what is in the book are people asking for? They've included cultists, dark apostles, and warsmiths... things that traditionally identified 3 legions... they have markable units... they're allowing certain characters to make Cult marines troops... The stuff thats lacking from 3.5 codex is separate fluff (which could always still be in the book), veteran skills... daemons and strict cult terminators. It isn't that much and it really is just a case of GW leaving it upto players to make their theme. I do believe that they believe they're trying to be accomodating, I just don't believe those relatively small additions add anything of thematic importance.

Edit for this ^^^^^ GW doesn't want to have to hold our hands rules wise to make fluff centeric armies. We have the books (aka fluff) and the tools (Models) to make fluff armies on our own. Just selfimpose restrictions on what you can and can't take. Again they weren't meant to be competitive lists if they were supper fluffy anyway.

the issue I have with the lack of a legions book is the simple fact that each SM book comes out with a new unit every revision. And not just the the main book, but each side chapter book as well.

Now there are holes with the legion book, as you said. But why are there holes in the choas book when we see whacked out things like dreadknights and thunderwolf cavalry get added to SM where Chaos gets nothing?

Why can't we get sorcerers on discs for fast attack? Battlemages that have harder hitting spells in heavy? Truly elite coven units large spells and such in elite?

In 5 years all we got was warsmiths and reworded dreadnaughts. In the 5 years before that all we got were defilers iirc?

Nvs wrote:the issue I have with the lack of a legions book is the simple fact that each SM book comes out with a new unit every revision. And not just the the main book, but each side chapter book as well.

Now there are holes with the legion book, as you said. But why are there holes in the choas book when we see whacked out things like dreadknights and thunderwolf cavalry get added to SM where Chaos gets nothing?

Why can't we get sorcerers on discs for fast attack? Battlemages that have harder hitting spells in heavy? Truly elite coven units large spells and such in elite?

In 5 years all we got was warsmiths and reworded dreadnaughts. In the 5 years before that all we got were defilers iirc?

This is a completely diffrent arguement. To release models as much as they do for vanilla SM they'd need to break our books up into diffrent books dedicated to diffrent legions. I think that'd be cool but it would require them to release so many power armor books it wouldn't even be funny and xenos players would rightly call foul. I'm hoping that WD takes center stage again and starts to release mini dexs that would allow players to build supper fluffy armys with a new model here or there (hey a man can dream right)

Nvs wrote:Now there are holes with the legion book, as you said. But why are there holes in the choas book when we see whacked out things like dreadknights and thunderwolf cavalry get added to SM where Chaos gets nothing?

Why can't we get sorcerers on discs for fast attack? Battlemages that have harder hitting spells in heavy? Truly elite coven units large spells and such in elite?

Its the shear size and variety of Chaos... when an army has to be written so broadly as too cover as many flavors it leaves little room to get specific and give depth. This is why if you ever want to see Chaos Legions recieving treatment even boardering that, they'd need more than the one book.

Nvs wrote:
In 5 years all we got was warsmiths and reworded dreadnaughts. In the 5 years before that all we got were defilers iirc?

Chaos has certainly gotten the short end of the stick... At least now we're getting a whole slew of new units.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:Fixed that for you...

Total bull gak.

Please get lost if you've nothing interesting to contribute.

So might you and go play 3.5 if you liked it so much.

That book was in no uncertain way the abyssal low-point of 25 years of 40K history. There is no need to return to it in either concept, inspiration or design philosophy. It was page by page, letter by letter a fanboyish fluff-hack of the worst sort with absolutely no consideration for the game in any way. It was honey drawing the worst of the ugly urges this hobby sometimes brings out in certain players, intransparent to a fault, convoluted, overtly-complex for no reason and a nightmare for anyone to play against who didn't study the book in minute detail day in and day out.

There is a reason GW returned (with perhaps too much enthusiasm) to the minimalist-philosophy of early 3rd Edition in their 4th Edition books. That reason was Chaos 3.5. It is literally the only game extension that "truly" broke the game (though this moniker has seen some inflationary use).

Since we're so far off track, I asked to close this up until we get new rumors.

@All: Please keep the discussion here ON-TOPIC. Feel free to start threads about older editions of 40k or whatever else in the appropriate parts of the forum (for example, 40k General Discussion). Thanks!