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protonhunter wrote:
My arguement is 50% strawmans aka some of the legions aren't a cohesive fighting force any more with out central leadership and therefore world eaters legion rules unlocked by simply chosing Kharne the Betrayer would be stupid because 1 they don't fight as a team and 2 because KHARNE DOES NOT LEAD THEM. I am totally against special rules being unlocked just because you say that it's a certain legion or because you painted them blue gold so they must be 1k sons (sorry can't use Ahriman he's not apart of the legion anymore). You should have to fufill a certain requirments such as taking a specific HQ that's not just a chaos champion model that you desided this 1 game to have the wargear that unlocks that legion.

The other 50% is me saying, yes, stop cluttering up the rule book with a (at minimum) 8 page section most players wont use and is impractical to impliment. Not only that but if you intend for HQ's to unlock these legions you need 8 new HQ choices with 8 new models with 8 more pages (maybe 7 typhus could arguably still be with the death guard). There is also no way either that they wouldn't give black legion led by failbandon extra special rules too so that's another at least 2 pages here IMHO cuz they'z the coolest. So we've racked up a total of 18 pages here guys?

My main contention - originally you said "half" the Legions are now warbands, but only provide 2 as an example. Half of 9 is not 2. Of course I guess you could always debate the semantics of your usage of the word "warbands". Even if you agree to limiting head count to 100 Marines in a Warband, when lore speaks of multiple warbands, that would indicate Marine Chapter size forces. Again, in lore, some Legions were around 12k-15k marines. So each Legion on average would have 100 warbands of 100 marines. Let's address some of the finer points that seem to elude you in the CSM world.

III - Primarch alive, I will agree they have reduced to warbands in cohesion but definately not in number, although plenty of characters (2 in the book already) and 1 Unit. Not sure what else Emp. Child. players are looking for here but to rebuke your other point, these pages are already IN the book.
IV - Primarch alive, definately not reduced to warbands in size, many characters and completely gutted in most recent dex. If someone wants to play IW, they should just use C:SM and IG Allies.
VIII - Primarch dead, several characters, operations speak of multiple warbands operating together so definately not small. Again, nothing for these fellas. Might as well play Blood Angels for the DoA.
XII - Primarch alive, serveral characters other than Kharn (although he's in the book) and a unit in the book. They are still very large, most recent activity was against a WAAAGH, so I doubt it's a few guys. I'm definately not agreeing to the "aren't a cohesive fighting force" as they appear to be the opposite of that. Might as well play Blood Angels and run an all DC army though. Possibly take 1 more page in book.
XIV - Primarch alive, several characters (one in the book) and a unit in the book. Definately not a warband as they own at least 1 planet and regularly raid with fleets out of the Eye. Same as XII, maybe 1 more page in book.
XV - Primarch alive, several characters (one in the book) and a unit in the book. Definately not a warband as it specifically says "The Thousand Sons Traitor Legion fought alongside Abaddon the Despoiler in the 13th Black Crusade". Yeap, the WHOLE Legion. Might warrent another page in the book. XVI - This is basically their book, so I shouldn't have to address anything here. So no page increase by including these guys?
XVII - Primarch alive, definately not reduced to warbands in size as they own a planet and operate there as a Legion. Many characters and not a thing in the Codex. Not sure what Word Bearer players are looking for in the Codex.
XX - Primarch status uknown, multiple warbands operating actively all over the universe, several characters and nothing in the book. Again, not sure what Alpha players are looking for in the way of recompense, but I'm sure it wouldn't take much.

So I will give you no points for the "reduced to warband size" argument. All the Legions clearly have vast amounts of forces still active. To compare, that would be like saying Vulkan should be removed from C:SM because the Salamanders operate in warbands of less than 100 Marines, on average, when they fight. That can be said about any Power Armored force. It's a strawman.

The pages thing is just ridiculous. First off, the Codex books are going to be getting bigger anyway, look at WHFB. Secondly, that argument is like a child saying they don't want a larger ice cream sundae because it has nuts on it. Who cares!? Don't eat the nuts and enjoy the bigger sundae. If you don't like those pages, rip them out, ignore them, tape porn over them, or whatever.

I agree that Kharn shouldn't magically unlock Berserkers as troops. Lord Crull should lead them and do something like, reduce their unit point cost to that of a standard CSM or no point reduction and if you take 3 of them as troops you get Kharn for free. He just wants to show up and see what 30 Zerks are up too. The point is, it's insanely easy to slap stuff on, just like C:SM, that doesn't actually take up that much room and adds vast amount of flavor to the entire project. It would make *somerandomnumbergreaterthan1* happy that "their" army got a nod. It would lead to more sales, and more happy players.

It's not that hard, GW is just being lazy.

[Edit] Sorry Manch, was mid-tirade when you posted.

TalonZahn wrote:
XX - Primarch status uknown, multiple warbands operating actively all over the universe, several characters and nothing in the book. Again, not sure what Alpha players are looking for in the way of recompense, but I'm sure it wouldn't take much.

I know what I'd want!

* Some ability to 'infiltrate' and/or disrupt the enemy
* Ability to field 'cell operatives' = cultists with a variety of armaments and/or 'traitor guard' though I suppose the "Ally System" is where that is at now?
* A special character who is ambiguous in nature and intent, and not some stereotypical mustache twirling slaughterer of billions.

That's it!

also, from what i have read(which is most of this thread), they are not making a "traitor guard" unit, i know they are getting cultists, but, i view cultists as a different entity than traitor guard, and guard should have been allowed to ally with CSM. It is possible that i missed something, or i guess i could have missed something about a traitor guard unit with a different name. But i dont buy the arguement from people that say cultists=traitor guard

Yeah, the rumors around traitor guard were from some of the more suspect mongers iirc. Cultists seem to be a strong possibility with Traitor Guard covered by Allies.

dajobe wrote:also, from what i have read(which is most of this thread), they are not making a "traitor guard" unit, i know they are getting cultists, but, i view cultists as a different entity than traitor guard, and guard should have been allowed to ally with CSM. It is possible that i missed something, or i guess i could have missed something about a traitor guard unit with a different name. But i dont buy the arguement from people that say cultists=traitor guard

I thought that IG can ally with CSM, although they aren't "Bros" so they don't get all the benefits of say... SM and IG as Allies. If they did, that would go along way for the Traitor Guard people. Surely their are Traitor Guard right? I mean, Spikey Imperial Guard must exist. ( I was being facetious right there if you didn't catch it.)

That move alone might silence Iron Warrior players along with maybe a Relentless rule or a character.

+1 page in the book.

pretre wrote:Yeah, the rumors around traitor guard were from some of the more suspect mongers iirc. Cultists seem to be a strong possibility with Traitor Guard covered by Allies.

yeah, but wouldnt traitor guard be battle brothers with CSM? i guess the arguement could just used that they are allies of convenience since the CSM probably view them as inferior and completely expendable, but still, its bull-gak if SM and Tau get BB, why cant CSM and IG!!!

dajobe wrote:

pretre wrote:Yeah, the rumors around traitor guard were from some of the more suspect mongers iirc. Cultists seem to be a strong possibility with Traitor Guard covered by Allies.

yeah, but wouldnt traitor guard be battle brothers with CSM? i guess the arguement could just used that they are allies of convenience since the CSM probably view them as inferior and completely expendable, but still, its bull-gak if SM and Tau get BB, why cant CSM and IG!!!

I think your point defines that they indeed would not be battle brothers because of how they are viewed. To further explain, the difference between them and the SM +Tau being Battle Brothers is the view points of the "good" and the view points of the "bad" the SM and Tau can ally and work hand in hand for the greater good so to speak. Where as, the CSM and Traiter Guard do not have the same convictions so to speak. There is no selflessness in Chaos. The closest Chaos can come is followers of Khorne because with their death they still serve Khorne but there is still a different mentality.

This goes on to be proven in the rules where SM have the rule "and they shall know no fear" while CSM do not have this rule. There is no conviction of a greater good to keep them in the fight to the last.

Rivet wrote:

dajobe wrote:

pretre wrote:Yeah, the rumors around traitor guard were from some of the more suspect mongers iirc. Cultists seem to be a strong possibility with Traitor Guard covered by Allies.

yeah, but wouldnt traitor guard be battle brothers with CSM? i guess the arguement could just used that they are allies of convenience since the CSM probably view them as inferior and completely expendable, but still, its bull-gak if SM and Tau get BB, why cant CSM and IG!!!

I think your point defines that they indeed would not be battle brothers because of how they are viewed. To further explain, the difference between them and the SM +Tau being Battle Brothers is the view points of the "good" and the view points of the "bad" the SM and Tau can ally and work hand in hand for the greater good so to speak. Where as, the CSM and Traiter Guard do not have the same convictions so to speak. There is no selflessness in Chaos. The closest Chaos can come is followers of Khorne because with their death they still serve Khorne but there is still a different mentality.

This goes on to be proven in the rules where SM have the rule "and they shall know no fear" while CSM do not have this rule. There is no conviction of a greater good to keep them in the fight to the last.

while your point does hold true, why is it that ahriman couldnt lead a unit of traitor guard, im pretty sure that if he or any other chaos lord(except maybe kharn) shows up, if he says "jump", the tainted guard say "how high?" because it is obvious that these champions of chaos have earned the favor of their gods and minions who could be drops of water in an ocean would do everything they could to get noticed.

also, tau are xenos, most if not all SM hate xenos and constantly work to purge them, so i dont buy that SM and Tau are battle brothers

See Ahriman (or any other Chaos Lord) *could* lead a unit of traitor guard, but why would they? The traitor guard already have a chain of command that they follow. Why would any Chaos (Marine) Lord stoop so low as to issue generic troops commands? He would not, he would delegate it to their command since it is beneath him to really deal with them in the first place since they are only a tool after all.


As far as SM being Battle Brothers with ANY Xenos, I agree, it does not make sense other than GW wanting to make money.

Ahriman would lead bands of Tzeentch cultists to act as his pawns, I see nothing odd with that.

Just about any CSM attack beyond small raids use cultist troops, the BL books especially make use of them. They don't view it as stooping low, because they just use them as cannon fodder and they're basically brutalized slaves. Black Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion all use various renegade/Lost and the Damned troops.

Harriticus wrote:
Just about any CSM attack beyond small raids use cultist troops, the BL books especially make use of them. They don't view it as stooping low, because they just use them as cannon fodder and they're basically brutalized slaves. Black Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion all use various renegade/Lost and the Damned troops.

I declare Bingo! for this man.

Wasn't the IW in a book that used a mass of IG as meat shields for their attack?

That's kind of how I envision it. A wall of useless meat so the real units can get foward to cause the actual damage. I think we need some Penal Legion bomb units to clear out the riff-raff before assault.

The CSM view themselves as chosen above normal men. Any normal human is merely trash to be used as their Lords see fit.

Not to break up the OT fest here, but how about a rumor:

via neko on Warseer wrote:
Hmm, a source was saying something about the Dragon having a flame template attack to take out armour. He also recommended salt, as he picked up this tidbit from another source.

@:TalonZahn My problem doesn't have to do with people wish listing legions or playing specific legions in a friendly game and making up special rules, I have a problem with people who don't see legions as impractical and at best a long shot. What you did was fine though, you made counts as armies from normal space marines and you're running them for fluff reasons probably not to win. But it's simply unrealistic to expect GW to release 7-8 new HQ's just so we can get a new FOC and a few extra rules. Also just saying they're a specific legion/painting them that way to get special rules is really stupid IMHO. Also I do play competitively some times and I really don't want to get shoehorned into a specific legion if their rules end up being slightly overpowered.

As a side note I wasn't saying the legions were too small for a legions book to make sense I meant that they are disorganized and mostly roam around in those 100 man groups when not called upon by either their primarch or a particularly powerful champion (sorta like the orks but in a more sentient manner aka offered slaves for services ect). This means that making rules for them is kinda hard because you don't often see a complete group of only world eaters, thousand sons (seen a few times), emperors children, IMHO black legion (for the most part they're made up of an amalgam of different warbands so nailing down special rules other than can take 1 of each cult as troops when lead by abandon would be hard), with Alpha and Night Lords being mostly behind the scenes guys as I understand it. So go ahead make a group and come up with your own rules. Why do we need GW to hold our hand in making these troops they've given us the fluff and the models make your legion

I'm really looking forward to this new codex, and one of the things I heard that I'm most excited about is the sacrificing to daemonic vehicles to regain hull points. It would be super cool if they extended this to all daemons, awesome use for cultists anyone? Also if the Dark Apostils could sacrifice cultists to give a role on the EotG table to a single unit that could be supper cool. Alost of sacrifice themes could be uber cool, simple meat shield to grease the tracks of enemy treads is more what I'm expecting and dreading tho

III - Primarch alive, I will agree they have reduced to warbands in cohesion but definately not in number, although plenty of characters (2 in the book already) and 1 Unit. Not sure what else Emp. Child. players are looking for here but to rebuke your other point, these pages are already IN the book.

4th is thankfully addressing most, though Fabius Bile isn't exactly Emperor's Children anymore, he really is a true renegade.

What I want and what seems to be fulfilled by 6th as an Emporer's Children/Flawless Host Player.

Lore of Slaanesh rather than one psyker ability: Yes
Able to Take Slaanesh Daemons: Allies
Able to take FNP squads with Slaanesh marks: Yes
Able to Replace weapons on Slaanesh Marked units with Sonic blasters, sonic blast masters, or Doom Sirens: Doesn't seem likely
Able to take Combat Drugs: Doesn't seem likely
Able to take Daemonic Wargifts like Aura of Acquiescence: Maybe with the new charts.
Noise marines decent for once: Hopefully!
Lash of Torment on aspiring champions: Not sure.

While thankfully it has alleviated most of my concern thankfully.

The CSM view themselves as chosen above normal men. Any normal human is merely trash to be used as their Lords see fit.

Not all of them, the Alpha Legion actually train the soldiers in the traitor guard and use them quite effectively, rather than just as suicidal ones. As they are often used side by side with their own CSM

What I'm also hopeing from this new codex is the ability to build your legion the way you want to. At some point the idea that taking multiple marks and icons would be allowed, and IMHO this could be a huge step forward in building our own legions without taking up the time to 1 create multiple CSM books that would mean pushing off Xeno books or 2 half assing it and giving us a single page for each legion. This way we get to write the fluff of our armies and when it's tournement time I don't have to think hmmm looks like for this meta I need to take alot of armor, IW it is I guess.

Well I believe the book is already done anways, so arguing about how they should or should not do legion rules seems pointless to me. I honestly doubt we will see rules for legions in the new codex anyways. It would just be nice if the option was there.

I think from what I have read is that you can't get special rules or playing x legion, however you will be able to almost build any legion you want from the main codex. We still have no idea on what kind of options are available to the chaos lords(and someone was saying it is extensive) but from the sound of things unless you were looking for space marine chapters level of stuff it looks like you should be satisfied.

Then again I am ever the optimist. but i think deathguard will be fine, I am excited to see what happens to nurgle marked vehicles

To be honest I hope they use Codex: Space Marine as a Model. Each of the Special Character gave you the ability to do something special. Even a few of the Normal Characters, the Space Marine Captian and Tech-Marine let you change whet was under each FOC.
Look at the Space Wolf Codex, it has two Characters that completely change your FOC, Logan Makes Wolf Guard Troops. Now who has not taken advantage of that.
If the Rumors are correct, I take my Chaos Sorcerer and give him Mark of Tzeentch; Poof your Thousand Sons move from Elite to Troops. I take the Mark of Tzeentch for my Terminators; Poof they are now Thousand Sons Terminators. I now have a Thousand Son’s Legion. That’s all I am hoping for.
Take the same paragraph above and replace it everything appropriate and Poof I have my [Insert] Legion.

As far as Fluff; if they do once more like Codex: Space Marine. Each Legion will probably get a Page and probably a paragraph somewhere in there. That’s more than the Iron Fist and the Silver Skulls ever got. How many Founding got a nod in Codex: Ultramarine. I want to create a small Raven Guard force, but I have to go to Forge World to get anything other than Shrike.

I know there is a big difference between what you want and what you get. What I want is for there to be a Codex for every Marine Chapter, even those I will never play, each Eldar Faction, each Ork Clan and each Legion. That is not going to happen. What I am expecting is a Codex: Chaos Marines that I am going to spend to much money on because I am only going to use about ¼ to 1/3 of it to build my Anubis Themed Thousand Sons Army.

pretre wrote:Not to break up the OT fest here, but how about a rumor:

via neko on Warseer wrote:
Hmm, a source was saying something about the Dragon having a flame template attack to take out armour. He also recommended salt, as he picked up this tidbit from another source.

That's just breath of chaos.

protonhunter wrote: So go ahead make a group and come up with your own rules. Why do we need GW to hold our hand in making these troops they've given us the fluff and the models make your legion

Making up my own rules isn't needed. As I pointed out, for the most part, GW already did it in C:SM.

I have about 10k points of Iron Warriors in boxes, about 3k miles from here. So if I *truly* wanted to play them as I see fit.... I roll Imperial Fists rules with IG Allies.

It's just sad that I have to do that. It's sad that ANY CSM player can get better results playing *counts-as* or "My Army is painted like a Traitor but uses Loyalist rules."

I hope the Flyer can take Marks and the Marks result in different types of "flame" for that template. I'm going to need a Khorne Bloodspout that lowers LD, a Nurgle Barf Bomb that forces people to roll for mutations on a chart, a Tzeentch ear worm that makes the affected unit charge the closest friendly units, and a Slaanesh siren song that reduces Armor Save by 1 because everybody is getting naked.

Cyvash wrote:

pretre wrote:Not to break up the OT fest here, but how about a rumor:

via neko on Warseer wrote:
Hmm, a source was saying something about the Dragon having a flame template attack to take out armour. He also recommended salt, as he picked up this tidbit from another source.

That's just breath of chaos.

That would be my guess as well.

Guys! C'mon now. Let's not sit around arguing about who killed who. There's a simple solution to all of this. All you gotta do is retconn the fluff to make everybody some kind of Black Legion warbanz equivalent. Iron Warriors and siege warfare? Nah, they forgot all about that when they became warbanz. Night Lords and terror tactics? Warbanz! Word Bearers? 2 words - WAR BANZ.

Alpharius wrote:

TalonZahn wrote:
XX - Primarch status uknown, multiple warbands operating actively all over the universe, several characters and nothing in the book. Again, not sure what Alpha players are looking for in the way of recompense, but I'm sure it wouldn't take much.

I know what I'd want!

* Some ability to 'infiltrate' and/or disrupt the enemy
* Ability to field 'cell operatives' = cultists with a variety of armaments and/or 'traitor guard' though I suppose the "Ally System" is where that is at now?
* A special character who is ambiguous in nature and intent, and not some stereotypical mustache twirling slaughterer of billions.

That's it!

That's a pretty good point. But instead of all that what I'd really like to see are


WARBANZ!

TalonZahn wrote:

protonhunter wrote: So go ahead make a group and come up with your own rules. Why do we need GW to hold our hand in making these troops they've given us the fluff and the models make your legion

Making up my own rules isn't needed. As I pointed out, for the most part, GW already did it in C:SM.

I have about 10k points of Iron Warriors in boxes, about 3k miles from here. So if I *truly* wanted to play them as I see fit.... I roll Imperial Fists rules with IG Allies.

It's just sad that I have to do that. It's sad that ANY CSM player can get better results playing *counts-as* or "My Army is painted like a Traitor but uses Loyalist rules."

I hope the Flyer can take Marks and the Marks result in different types of "flame" for that template. I'm going to need a Khorne Bloodspout that lowers LD, a Nurgle Barf Bomb that forces people to roll for mutations on a chart, a Tzeentch ear worm that makes the affected unit charge the closest friendly units, and a Slaanesh siren song that reduces Armor Save by 1 because everybody is getting naked.

I've found that I'm usually a lot happier with subpar rules if I listen to some good music while I'm playing. Like, in June I went to this one concert and there were a whole bunch of bands I think you might really dig. You should check them out. They were... wait... now what type of bands were they again? Oh jeez, I forgot...


Hold on, it's on the tip of my tongue...


Oh, I remember - WARBANZ!

Dakka is a brighter place when Doobie is around.

Chaos Space Marine Codex: No longer available from US trade sales.

This probably means an Oct. release, but not outside the realm of possibility it hits in Sept with the new box set.

Judging by BoW certainty about the new starter set, looks like Chaos is definitely in for a new codex, and several new units. Yay!

http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/dark-vengeance-new-details/

winnertakesall wrote:Judging by BoW certainty about the new starter set, looks like Chaos is definitely in for a new codex, and several new units. Yay!

http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/dark-vengeance-new-details/

I like what I'm reading on those Cultists.... I always thought they should have a Necromunda vibe. I think it was Cawdor, lemme look..... Yea, Cawdor and that big dude with the Heavy Stubber. This is very promising indeed.

Sounds like new Chosen, New Lord model... even if they are one off, people will be selling their half.

We need pics of this "Hellbrute" stat!

I know one of you guys works in a warehouse somewhere and has a cellphone......

Just a quick blury snap.

Just once.

Daemon prince gets even more badass?! HUZZAH!!!!

The Observer wrote:Daemon prince gets even more badass?! HUZZAH!!!!

Has any information regarding this been posted? All I've seen is that it will get in line with the Chaos Daemons Prince, which is ´ricey and underwhelming except for the fact that it can now fly like a true flyer instead of jump trops.

The Observer wrote:Daemon prince gets even more badass?! HUZZAH!!!!

Where do you see this BTW? I've only seen that it's getting a points increase to be on par power wise with the DP of chaos proper so it can start being a normal FMC.