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Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






So, like, I'm confused, why delete and ban the whole topic and instead punish the bad Eggs?

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

Probably because it's a giant pain in the ass to handle it?

It's a volunteer position. If your volunteer position involved being, I don't know, hoofed in the gonads 5 times a day, would you keep that volunteer position?

What if you could make it so instead, you were only hoofed once per day? And all it took was making it so people couldn't discuss something that's generally considered poor form in mixed company anyway?

That's why, I'd guess.


PS: Hey, Porcupine, you could hit up notdakkapolitics and be miserable to the mod over there. I bet he'd let you have the run of the place!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/02 04:13:15


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
The Main Man






Beast Coast

I have to say I'm disappointed to see the political and religious discussions go away. While I understand the point that Dakka is a wargaming forum and we want to be able to talk about wargaming primarily, OT is OT. We are living in an extremely divisive and politically charged world right now, with factions that struggle to find common ground with each other. Having a place where everyone already has common ground (wargaming) and can also engage in respectful discussion of challenging topics is something we need more of, not less.

I understand that allowing political and religious discussion brings challenges with it. It's hard. But sometimes those things are the most worthwhile. Sometimes we won't know how much of a positive effect that kind of thing can have.

Some people might wonder what the point is - people will discuss politics and religion and nobody will change their views. But it's not just about what opinion people hold. It's about interacting with other people with opposing viewpoints, interacting other people with different religions, learning about different views and religions, and understanding that it's not us versus them and that we in many cases have a lot more in common than we have differences.

Not to mention, a lot of topics have elements that could be considered politically related or religion related. How much good discussion are we willing to give up for that kind of nitpicking?

At the end of the day it's not my decision, but I would certainly encourage the owners, admins, and mods to reconsider this one.

   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

Start your own forum, and be captain of the ship, like I did!

https://notdakkapolitics.armorforums.com/

You can do it for free, and stop bitching here! The mod over there is completely uncaring of the quality of experience for the users. Go nuts!
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Azreal13 wrote:
How about we also introduce a rule that if more than 20% of your total posts are in Off Topic, then you're banned from Off Topic until you've talked about actual wargaming to get your percentage below 20%?

The fact that a number of posters have a disproportionate number of their posts in OT is something that has come up more than once in our discussions about the OT forum over the years. The thing is, for many of them OT is simply the section where they feel they have something to contribute. They may well get value from the rest of the site, without necessarily feeling the need to join in actual hobby discussions, or they may be 'lapsed' gamers who still hang around because they know people here... Requiring these people to have a set percentage of their posts elsewhere would either drive them away entirely, or result in a lot more spam to inflate post counts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hordini wrote:

Not to mention, a lot of topics have elements that could be considered politically related or religion related. How much good discussion are we willing to give up for that kind of nitpicking?.

There will obviously need to be a certain amount of flexibility where topics like that are concerned, but the ideal is to remove the overtly political or religious chatter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/02 04:43:29


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Azreal13 wrote:
How about we also introduce a rule that if more than 20% of your total posts are in Off Topic, then you're banned from Off Topic until you've talked about actual wargaming to get your percentage below 20%?
I actually thought about something like that more than once.

Ninja'd by insaniak

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/02 04:55:03


   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Remember, "part of the community" =/= "post count". People can be very interested in part of the site and read lots of stuff, but it won't show up in their post count of if they have nothing to add to the discussion. So a person with 30% of their posts in OT doesn't necessarily spend 30% of their time there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So, like, I'm confused, why delete and ban the whole topic and instead punish the bad Eggs?


Because certain people don't understand the concept of "if you don't like politics don't read it" and get outraged that other people are talking about something they hate. Add in smug superiority over refusing to accept that "keep politics out of the hobby" is itself a political statement and you get the current ban.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/02 06:31:52


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Peregrine wrote:
Remember, "part of the community" =/= "post count".
There's no need to weigh the pros and cons, we're not going with a percentage-based access limit. In light of the ban on politics and religion, the sole justification for such a scheme, independent of its faults or merits, is no more.

   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Peregrine wrote:

Because certain people don't understand the concept of "if you don't like politics don't read it" and get outraged that other people are talking about something they hate. Add in smug superiority over refusing to accept that "keep politics out of the hobby" is itself a political statement and you get the current ban.

The issue with politics threads is nothing to do with those who don't want to discuss politics, it's with those who refuse to discuss politics in a civil fashion. And there are enough of those to make it simply not worth the effort to moderate politics discussion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/02 07:27:37


 
   
Made in za
Longtime Dakkanaut





 insaniak wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:

Because certain people don't understand the concept of "if you don't like politics don't read it" and get outraged that other people are talking about something they hate. Add in smug superiority over refusing to accept that "keep politics out of the hobby" is itself a political statement and you get the current ban.

The issue with politics threads is nothing to do with those who don't want to discuss politics, it's with those who refuse to discuss politics in a civil fashion. And there are enough of those to make it simply not worth the effort to moderate politics discussion.



Unfortunately you tend to find that more rules means more work rather than less. Now you have to monitor every thread for two additional infractions (politics and religion) which at best are fluid in interpretation as to what is acceptable (is discussing, for example, a religiously motivated terrorist attack acceptable or not?). By having the discussions focussed in two places it is easier to monitor and can generate less work, even if the work in that specific forum is higher.

I can't also say I'm slightly confused as to the reasoning. Having looked through the last 20 pages of the US politics thread I can't see any moderator warnings on what people were saying (and the UK one I can't remember the last time it happened). Either then people are being warned offline or the topics are generating complaints but that are not actually justified (effectively you are managing 'sour grapes'). The former is possible but without any guidance as to what may or not be acceptable (as it is generally the grey areas that are problematic). Temporary/permanent bans and a public demonstration of why something wasn't acceptable and that someone was banned may have been a better method of both recognising valid complaints and providing a better a steer as to where the lines are with the aim of long term improvement of the standards of conversation. If the latter then it would be fairer to explain this rather than a loose hand waving explanation saying that there are too many people that aren't civil which could be any number from zero to one thousand.

I could have understood better such a restriction after the previous US topic was closed because that had become an area where people were just throwing insults at each other. However there seems to be much less evidence this was going on recently.

However as an aside question is it acceptable to have a "UK and EU news and events" topic as an alternative. A place where people can post current news/facts on events but can't discuss the politics of the issues. So as examples:-

a) the actual events surrounding the recent issues with scallop fishing (but not the political issues surrounding the EU fisheries legislation)
b) The Prime Ministers comments today that she does not accept the call for a new referendum and variation on the EU proposals (but not a political discussion on whether that is viable or not)
c) The events of a royal wedding (but not the political discussion of who should pay for this)
etc.

This would allow relevant news and events to be highlighted to other users but wouldn't stray into political/religious discussion. In effect just reporting on actual events and facts that have been released by outlets but it would all be in one place rather than individual posts on news items?

"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

No, we won't allow a hub thread discussing news items about, for example, a political leader's public comments about ongoing political issues. That would basically be exactly what we have just banned.

As to news items more generally, the same leeway that has always existed will likely remain in place. The only change will be that a news thread that becomes a political debate will no longer be locked and redirected to the relevant political hub thread but will instead only be locked. (An example would be when a thread about a public shooting becomes a thread about gun control.)

As to the reasoning - I would really recommend you take a look at the message yakface posted in the OP. I feel like quite a few posts ITT demonstrate the truism that no one reads stickies.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/02 10:38:39


   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So, like, I'm confused, why delete and ban the whole topic and instead punish the bad Eggs?


It doesn't help that they keep letting reoffenders come back, rather then choosing to ban them as a whole. Time out doesn't work when people just come back and do the same thing over and over again, insulting other posters but trying harder to make sure to slyly do so.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/09/02 12:19:30


 
   
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

I think it'll be impossible to talk uk/EU news because a lot of it political in nature. We'd be condemned to stating facts and not engaging in any discussion or analysis, and that sounds like a fate worse than death for the UK and EU politics thread.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I just checked, and there are free forums that you can host. As a silly example...

https://notdakkapolitics.armorforums.com/755/188

Is a forum I just started, with absolutely no intention of following up with. So if you want a political forum, it’s rather easy to do and won’t cost you a thing if you don’t want it to.

PS: No challenge is being made towards Dakka with this. Just trying to prove a point. If anyone is upset, I can apparently shut it down at any time and I would happily do so... but hopefully a joke is just a joke.


The problem with starting yet another forum is getting anyone yo use it, and getting a mix of people from both sides. I'll miss the political/economic news from the largest event in my lifetime, but it being made of calls members is what made it unique and high quality. I doubt we could reproduce that on another site as people just wouldn't join/check in.

Having a certain ratio of on / off topic news would kill participation off for me - I'm not currently playing any games calls has boards from, don't do any painting, and not vastly bothered about news. So I only really visit off topic and general gaming discussion. Rather than contribute more to the rest of the forum, I'd just contribute less to the bits I'd need a ratio for.
If this place turned into some elitist not-the-right-type-of-gamer place then I'd leave in a heartbeat and not return even when I start gaming again.

On the plus side, I've probably got an hour a day of my life back to do something more productive, or look at bewbs or something.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/02 12:31:22


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

We're currently having the same conversation in two places, so please comment in the N&B thread instead of this sticky:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/763167.page#10136567
   
Made in us
[DCM]
The Main Man






Beast Coast

For anyone interested, I've started a thread in the Wasteland for Dakka political refugees here.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

Thank you, Hordini much appreciated!
   
Made in us
[DCM]
The Main Man






Beast Coast

 RiTides wrote:
Thank you, Hordini much appreciated!


Happy to be of service! Come one, come all, to the wretched hive of scum and villainy!

   
Made in us
[DCM]
The Main Man






Beast Coast

Would there be any interest on the part of the administration and moderators of making a link to the Wasteland a sticky somewhere? Like a "Want to discuss banned topics? Go here!" kind of thing?

   
Made in za
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Hordini wrote:
Would there be any interest on the part of the administration and moderators of making a link to the Wasteland a sticky somewhere? Like a "Want to discuss banned topics? Go here!" kind of thing?


I think it might be just worth posting a separate post on the OT to see what attention it gets. I keep asking the same question and a lot of tumbleweed blows through. However how are you expecting to manage it if there is no admin/mods to control things?

"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
The Main Man






Beast Coast

 Whirlwind wrote:
 Hordini wrote:
Would there be any interest on the part of the administration and moderators of making a link to the Wasteland a sticky somewhere? Like a "Want to discuss banned topics? Go here!" kind of thing?


I think it might be just worth posting a separate post on the OT to see what attention it gets. I keep asking the same question and a lot of tumbleweed blows through. However how are you expecting to manage it if there is no admin/mods to control things?


There is at least one administrator and a few mods. I know a few of them at least are still around. It won't be that bad. Trust me. It's all part of the fun!

   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

Ok, to get this party started: US and NA Poltiics Thread has been moved to:
http://otzone.proboards.com/thread/7450/na-poltiics-general?page=1&scrollTo=126674

UK and EU threads have been moved to:
http://otzone.proboards.com/thread/7451/uk-eu-politics-general


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

Thanks, Baron! Much appreciated

Just wanted to reiterate that the above is not connected to Dakka in any way! I personally think it's well worth checking out, but that's just my (RiTides) opinion

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/09/06 06:00:01


 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Kamloops, BC

 RiTides wrote:
Thanks, Baron! Much appreciated

Just wanted to reiterate that the above is not connected to Dakka in any way! I personally think it's well worth checking out, but that's just my (RiTides) opinion



You can't trick me, it was the original OT thread for Dakka.
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






nvm

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/23 14:08:16


Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





I'd be willing to mod the forums for free. I'd be willing to mod it daily for the next three months.

   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





In light of today's hiccup, I'm curious, when politics and religion were allowed to be discussed, how bad actually was it and could something be done to mitigate the old problems with these kinds of topics in the future?
   
Made in gb
[MOD]
Villanous Scum







It was horrific, it let to lots of bad blood and ill feeling which is why it got shut down in the first place. This is, quite simply, a forum for discussing toys and painting and playing with them, neither religion nor politics has any place in it. The internet is filled with forums/blogs etc. where people can discuss those topics until they are blue in the face but this is not the venue for it.

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire. 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Once upon a time, it wasn't so bad.

In the last few years, it got progressively worse, and it reached a point where there were more posts requiring moderator attention coming out of OT than the rest of the site combined.

At that point, it just wasn't worth the effort required to allow it to continue. This isn't a site for discussing politics, it's a site to talk about games of toy soldiers. So if a topic not related to toy soldiers is soaking up an inordinate amount of moderator time and energy, it makes far more sense to get rid of that topic than it does to waste resources trying to keep it contained.

The Off-topic area is an optional extra, included to allow people to connect with other gamers on non-game-related topics. But as such, it's only of any value so long as it builds the community, rather than causing division.

 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 ArcaneHorror wrote:
In light of today's hiccup, I'm curious, when politics and religion were allowed to be discussed, how bad actually was it and could something be done to mitigate the old problems with these kinds of topics in the future?


It was bad because of dakka policies. The problem is that dakka's most important rule is "be polite", not "be correct" or "be honest" or anything like that. So the people who were parroting extremely partisan and factually questionable (to put it politely) sources and ignoring any evidence proving them wrong were ok, because they didn't use any bad words in their posts, but when someone would finally get frustrated at dealing with their dishonesty and constant bad-faith arguing and throw in a or two that's when it was considered a ban-worthy offense. Throw in some fairly ridiculous ideas about the importance of maximizing the number of people in the community being more important that maximizing the quality of people, divisions being something to avoid at all costs, etc, and it was decided that politics didn't fit with the goal of superficial politeness at all costs. A more reasonable policy would have been to acknowledge that political discussion is of interest, that people who aren't interested in reading it are free to not click on the clearly labeled politics threads, and handle it with a proper moderation policy instead of only caring about who said too many times. But instead politics is banned, and we have to just pretend that anything "too political" is not relevant. But hey, at least is being said fewer times and superficial politeness is maintained!

Of course in the context of the present debacle there was zero sign that the person demanding the ability to talk about politics had any interest in constructive discussion, or anything outside of getting to post their fringe lunatic political rants. Nothing whatsoever was lost by not allowing them to post.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/26 05:52:17


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Peregrine wrote:
The problem is that dakka's most important rule is "be polite", not "be correct" or "be honest" or anything like that.

For sure. Speaking as a moderator on a forum primarily devoted to the discussion of games involving toy soldiers, I can't think of anything I would rather do with my free time than fact-check every post in the Off-topic section to determine whether or not the poster is factually correct.


Oh, wait... yes, I can. Like, practically anything else would be a more productive and more enjoyable use of my time.



So the people who were parroting extremely partisan and factually questionable (to put it politely) sources and ignoring any evidence proving them wrong were ok, because they didn't use any bad words in their posts, but when someone would finally get frustrated at dealing with their dishonesty and constant bad-faith arguing and throw in a or two that's when it was considered a ban-worthy offense.

As has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions, you always have the option to just not respond when you are sick of the other party in a discussion refusing to acknowledge your clearly superior and inherently correct stance on the issue.


You can stick your nose up at Dakka's primary rule all you want, but the simple fact is that expecting polite behaviour from members is hardly a revolutionary concept. Common courtesy is a pretty fundamental underpinning of the society we live in, and is what makes social groups of any kind actually function.

Facilitating your penchant for correcting people you think are wrong doesn't inherently make for a better community, particularly when the issues you're correcting them on have nothing to do with the primary purpose of this site, and when the bad blood resulting from that sort of nonsense spills over into other areas of the site.

Yes, political discussion may be of interest to a certain segment of the forum community... but when the work involved in keeping that from being detrimental to the site as a whole becomes more effort than is sensible to throw at it, it's just not worth keeping it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/26 09:15:13


 
   
 
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