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So, what every happened to the W's ? Was it just that one raid on Alexandrea, and that was it? They weren't all killed in the attack were they? Or are they part of Negan's gang? Or watching from the shadows to see who kills off who first, and then sweep in and clean up the rest?

 gorgon wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Although I truly think it's Abraham...what if it was Maggie?? Do a 180 from the comics? Totally doable.

Except then they just had a sick, pregnant woman's skull smashed in. The comic and show do horrible things...but they'd be facing some backlash from that, methinks. If you're going to wreck that relationship, then you go with Glenn for a cleaner solution. Plus, they do seem to be setting Maggie up for her destiny as in the comics.

 Hulksmash wrote:
And I think that Eugene got Lucille'd.

He's very important to the stuff that comes later, though. Still, the one thing that gives me pause is that he gave Rick the instructions for making ammo. I don't remember anything like that in the books...Eugene makes it happen because he's still there. Could be a red herring, or it may be the workaround for his departure.

Unfortunately not seen the episode as was away on Holiday but will get it on catach up.............

Obviously I would hope its Eugene over all the others but hey - in terms of the need for his specific skills - they can just bring in another survivor/s with techincal abilities - arguably Denise getting killed was much more of a problem for Alexandria as they don;t have another medically trained person?

Its exactly why both Eugene and Denise should never have been allowed out of the compound - they are too valuable and they themslves were (understandbly and in avery human way ) selfish in risking themslves in that way. But hey stuff needs to happen to keep the plot rolling

Is there any indication yet of the size of the Savious as they have suffered a massive amount of dead - must be 50+ dead - thats an awful lot!

I thought the epsiode with Maggie and Carol captured was great - and it was a shame that such interesting Saviour chracters got killed.....I also thought it was considered easier for us to watch women kill women - than if Rick and Co had had to kill them in cold blood as they did the last survivor they had......but then I think back to what Carol and Tyreese had to do to the little girl - so maybe not..............

 Necros wrote:
So, what every happened to the W's ? Was it just that one raid on Alexandrea, and that was it? They weren't all killed in the attack were they? Or are they part of Negan's gang? Or watching from the shadows to see who kills off who first, and then sweep in and clean up the rest?

The Wolves are dealt with now - they're dead and gone.

Season 7 will be Savior and Negan overload!

I'm not sure they are going to pour on bad things about Neegan. I mean, he's a dictator but even the Gov. had his redeeming qualities.

I like the parallel and the idea that we'd be rooting for Negan at this point if we'd watched him from the beginning. I mean honestly in context of the show Rick is pretty stable. But in reality if you step back there aren't many differences between him and Negan. Actually Negan might be less inclined to kill everyone as, unlike Rick, he has enough men that he can afford mistakes from time to time.

Rick and his "family" can't. There are to few of them and it's happened to often. Hence his decisive brutality.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'm not sure they are going to pour on bad things about Neegan. I mean, he's a dictator but even the Gov. had his redeeming qualities.

I like the parallel and the idea that we'd be rooting for Negan at this point if we'd watched him from the beginning. I mean honestly in context of the show Rick is pretty stable. But in reality if you step back there aren't many differences between him and Negan. Actually Negan might be less inclined to kill everyone as, unlike Rick, he has enough men that he can afford mistakes from time to time.

Rick and his "family" can't. There are to few of them and it's happened to often. Hence his decisive brutality.

Probably right - the whole kill the Saviours get the food aspect was well done and realistic but yeah maybe it was trying to show that Rick is still never far from the darkness.............

Again - there's NO WAY we'd find Negan and the Saviors at all palatable no matter when we started following them.

They routinely kill one person right off the bat (ha!), take half of their stuff and threaten to kill more if they don't do what they're told.

They make you return to your home and return with the head of your leader in order to save hostages.

Etc. etc.

There are many differences between Negan and Rick - I'm guessing maybe you haven't read the comics? - and this will become readily apparent soon.

Negan may be 'charming' to some extent, and...darkly humorous at times, but he'd not someone you'd prefer over almost anyone else.

 Alpharius wrote:
Again - there's NO WAY we'd find Negan and the Saviors at all palatable no matter when we started following them.

They routinely kill one person right off the bat (ha!), take half of their stuff and threaten to kill more if they don't do what they're told.

They make you return to your home and return with the head of your leader in order to save hostages.

Etc. etc.

There are many differences between Negan and Rick - I'm guessing maybe you haven't read the comics? - and this will become readily apparent soon.

Negan may be 'charming' to some extent, and...darkly humorous at times, but he'd not someone you'd prefer over almost anyone else.

Just read the latest issue (152) - and Negan has quite a few fans you know?

I do need to watch this latest episode to see how they have done him

I'll take the comic book WRITER and CREATOR's view of it yours Alph. If he says it's likely we'd view Negan close to how we view Rick now then I think he's probably right. It is his material after all

I mean WHY does Negan and his group do that? It could be argued that it's because of what happened to them in the past. He's really no different than most nobles written about in history. A feudal system isn't a good system but it does work and did for centuries.

And while I'm sure they will darken him a bit I don't think they'll go full crazy one him. I think they want to toy with the line and how very close Rick is to being a Gov./Negan and making him to bad will undermine it.

152 Negan is a lot different than 100 Negan - though the comic releasing tomorrow should tell us a lot about where he is now!

Yeah, from a survival point of view, a guy that brutally murders one to prevent a spiraling conflict and then assimilates the remaining seems pretty solid and almost Romanesque. The fact that he doesn't just enslave weaker opposition and keep the wealth among his warrior core puts him miles above most historical leaders.
Rick is rapidly proving far too impulsive and reactionary to be a good large scale leader. A good warband leader, yes. Large scale leader, not so much. If Negan couples controlled power with a charismatic personality and solid logistics/ planning, there would not really be any good reason to oppose him as leader.
After all, taking half your stuff is just a tax.

Er, right...

Sure...

(Hopes to never be in a Zombie Apocalypse - or any other one - with certain users! )

Given the series take on the Governor, hopefully they'll take the same route as they did with him. Hmn, though in saying that, the Governor was an early villain, so the writing wasn't as developed as it is now.

Ideally we'll see more of an expansion on Negan's character. Rather than him being shown just through his current actions there'll be more behind the scenes development. The way the comics handled things it was just like he was there to do something big then bugger off as people reacted to it (presumably due to the serialized nature of the media).

Since the show doesn't follow the comics to a tee, anything goes. Odds are that Negan will get offed by one of the group in a spectacular fashion, further down the road. He's just the Governor 2.0 with a bit of charm thrown in as icing.


Or they can surprise us. Like I said, anything goes.

 jmurph wrote:

The episode just felt really stretched out and contrived to me. Carol's angle is super unbelievable and really erodes some good development. And while it introduced another faction (good thing), they looked ridiculous.

Heh if you thought the guys dressed in armour riding horses and wielding spears were ridiculous, wait till you see their leader.


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The difference between the Governor and Negan is that whilst the Governor was a paranoid psychopath who saw everyone of whom he didn't command loyalty and obedience as a threat to be exterminated, Negan on the other hand is a visionary.

Negan is bringing communities together to create a network and rebuild civilization in his own twisted way. He terrorizes communities and beats them into submission then puts them to work harvesting supplies to feed the the Saviours, who are essentially his private army protecting the empire he's building. I expect that he eventually recruits the strongest and most capable people into the Saviours once they've proven their worth, obedience and loyalty. Many of the Saviours themselves probably started out as enemies, until Negan brought them together.

It never really came up in the comics, but I expect the purpose of The Saviours is to defend DC against the biggest and most dangerous threats like massive herds of walkers such as the one that attacked Alexandria (before the Saviours were aware of the settlement), and other hostile groups of survivors like The Wolves and Terminus. After all, he doesn't want the network of settlements that supply him and his people to crumble. The Saviours do actually turn up at Alexandria's gates once to collect supplies, and they clear the immediate area of a small herd of walkers.

Negan and Rick are two sides of the same coin. They're both trying to rebuild civilization in their own ways.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
I disagree!

In no way would we ever think Negan is anything other than what he is - and that's a charismatic lunatic!

Negan's actually way smarter than a mere lunatic. I loathed The Governor, but I actually like Negan and his aims, just not his methods.


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 Necros wrote:
So, what every happened to the W's ? Was it just that one raid on Alexandrea, and that was it? They weren't all killed in the attack were they? Or are they part of Negan's gang? Or watching from the shadows to see who kills off who first, and then sweep in and clean up the rest?

The last survivors of the Wolves were killed by Rick when they attacked his RV.

People really ought to forget about the Wolves now. They were based on a very minor group of antagonists who only featured in a couple of issues until they were wiped out in one single skirmish. The only hostile group in the comics that had a briefer run were the Marauders (the guys that jump Rick, Michonne and Carl in the woods and try to rape Carl).

They were never meant to be a long term threat, they were just fleshed out a little to add a little padding to the early half of the season.

Comic The Governor - crap. Tv The Governor - great. Novel The Governor - redeemed the comic one so he was a lot more conflicted (it was all a show for stability).

I wonder if they'll make a novel for Negan as well so as to flesh him out a lot more. He's still alive, so maybe not, but he could do with a similar treatment to The Governor.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Denise getting killed was much more of a problem for Alexandria as they don;t have another medically trained person?

Denise actually dies anyway in the comics, just at a later point. (probably somewhere in the second half of Season 7 if she hadn't died in Season 6).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


Since the show doesn't follow the comics to a tee, anything goes. Odds are that Negan will get offed by one of the group in a spectacular fashion, further down the road. He's just the Governor 2.0 with a bit of charm thrown in as icing.


Or they can surprise us. Like I said, anything goes.

I don't think they'll kill Negan. He's too important to Rick's future character development, becoming a devil on Rick's shoulder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
152 Negan is a lot different than 100 Negan - though the comic releasing tomorrow should tell us a lot about where he is now!

I think the cover for #152 is metaphorical.

Re: Negan

 Alpharius wrote:
Again - there's NO WAY we'd find Negan and the Saviors at all palatable no matter when we started following them.
They routinely kill one person right off the bat (ha!), take half of their stuff and threaten to kill more if they don't do what they're told.

They make you return to your home and return with the head of your leader in order to save hostages.

Negan may be 'charming' to some extent, and...darkly humorous at times, but he'd not someone you'd prefer over almost anyone else.

Re how palatable people would find such a group:

Have you watched historical fiction like Vikings or Black Sails? Some the best loved "heroes" are as "bad" or much worse...........

In Vikings, Ragnar and Lagetha are happy to kill, enslave, torture and in fact either enjoy all of these or just find it part of the natural order. The first episode has the main hero turn up and slaughter unarmed priests and take a few to sell as slaves - the Vikings think its a great laugh.
The main cast find it fun to string a priest up and shoot arrows at him until he dies.......

In fact pretty much everyone in the show carries out much more horrific acts than Negan/Rick and crew............

Captain Vain orchestrates the repeated gang rape of a woman and "everyone" was devastated when he died.

Negan acts like the world has changed back to these days and can be seen to be similar to a Mongol leader, Samurai Noble, Medieval king, Roman General, etc etc in fact they might consider him a bit soft

Denise actually dies anyway in the comics, just at a later point. (probably somewhere in the second half of Season 7 if she hadn't died in Season 6).

Yeah my point was her knowledge/skill set is as important as Eugnene (much much more so in the short term) and she is dead. They can always bring new cast in with knowledge and they are simply not tied to a given character providing that knowledge.

One thing I am not sure about is that given the huge damage that Ricks crew have inflicted on the Saviours - Smashing just one guys head in may seem a let off for the men and women they have lost.............. I realise that they can't kill the main cast in numbers though.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Again - there's NO WAY we'd find Negan and the Saviors at all palatable no matter when we started following them.
They routinely kill one person right off the bat (ha!), take half of their stuff and threaten to kill more if they don't do what they're told.

They make you return to your home and return with the head of your leader in order to save hostages.

Negan may be 'charming' to some extent, and...darkly humorous at times, but he'd not someone you'd prefer over almost anyone else.

Re how palatable people would find such a group:

Have you watched historical fiction like Vikings or Black Sails? Some the best loved "heroes" are as "bad" or much worse...........

In Vikings, Ragnar and Lagetha are happy to kill, enslave, torture and in fact either enjoy all of these or just find it part of the natural order. The first episode has the main hero turn up and slaughter unarmed priests and take a few to sell as slaves - the Vikings think its a great laugh.
The main cast find it fun to string a priest up and shoot arrows at him until he dies.......

In fact pretty much everyone in the show carries out much more horrific acts than Negan/Rick and crew............

Captain Vain orchestrates the repeated gang rape of a woman and "everyone" was devastated when he died.

Negan acts like the world has changed back to these days and can be seen to be similar to a Mongol leader, Samurai Noble, Medieval king, Roman General, etc etc in fact they might consider him a bit soft

The problem being, of course, that "Civilization" has kind of said "No, not anymore!" to that way of life for hundreds of years at this point, and there are plenty of communities 2 years on that don't run themselves like that.

Still, the overall point of the show (and comic) is that Man is the True Monster Now!

So yeah, Negan shows that point rather nicely...

How long before we see The Whisperers, any bets?

Negan appears in issue 100. Alpha appears in issue 132.

The spat with Negan lasted months in comic time. Alpha turned up two years + after that ended.

So speaking of series length, it depends. Do they cut short Negan (odd considering they extended the Governor's arc, and they're running out of material), or cut to Alpha? Do they cut out the two year gap, or create filler?

I'd say two or three seasons, depending on the filler and if they cut out stuff. Negan should last, and there's a lot to work with their. Given that the Saviours were fairly flat they could do with expanding, particular Negan's reasons and giving Dwight more to do (also possibly bringing his second in command who only appears after the time skip).

If they really need to make things last they could spend a season just building up to the Whisperers.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Again - there's NO WAY we'd find Negan and the Saviors at all palatable no matter when we started following them.
They routinely kill one person right off the bat (ha!), take half of their stuff and threaten to kill more if they don't do what they're told.

They make you return to your home and return with the head of your leader in order to save hostages.

Negan may be 'charming' to some extent, and...darkly humorous at times, but he'd not someone you'd prefer over almost anyone else.

Re how palatable people would find such a group:

Have you watched historical fiction like Vikings or Black Sails? Some the best loved "heroes" are as "bad" or much worse...........

In Vikings, Ragnar and Lagetha are happy to kill, enslave, torture and in fact either enjoy all of these or just find it part of the natural order. The first episode has the main hero turn up and slaughter unarmed priests and take a few to sell as slaves - the Vikings think its a great laugh.
The main cast find it fun to string a priest up and shoot arrows at him until he dies.......

In fact pretty much everyone in the show carries out much more horrific acts than Negan/Rick and crew............

Captain Vain orchestrates the repeated gang rape of a woman and "everyone" was devastated when he died.

Negan acts like the world has changed back to these days and can be seen to be similar to a Mongol leader, Samurai Noble, Medieval king, Roman General, etc etc in fact they might consider him a bit soft

The problem being, of course, that "Civilization" has kind of said "No, not anymore!" to that way of life for hundreds of years at this point, and there are plenty of communities 2 years on that don't run themselves like that.

Still, the overall point of the show (and comic) is that Man is the True Monster Now!

So yeah, Negan shows that point rather nicely...

"Again - there's NO WAY we'd find Negan and the Saviors at all palatable no matter when we started following them."

Sorry but I thought your whole point was that we - the viewers would not want to watch them or enjoy them etc?

These other shows demonstrate that people are happy to watch such people and indeed cheer them on..............

Currently in the show we know of precisely three groups that survived that didn't run like that:

The Atlanta gangers at the start (and we have no idea what happened to them)
the Hilltop - which arguably only survives because of the Saviours
Alexandria - and Arguably the Ricktatorship veered towards this on occasion - he was getting food from the Hilltop either by trade or by gun - he stated he wasn't leaving without it.
Plus Alexandria's pre Rick survival as it was depicted was pretty damn unlikely

In contrast we have had:

The Governor
Terminus - they tried the Alexandria way and look what happened to them.....not nice.....
The Hospital people
The Saviours
The Wolves

plus various roaming gangs of "bad guys".

Negan and Rick have similarities, and important differences...primarily in their motivations. Negan, while a visionary, is far more *selfish*. And in fact it's his selfishness that holds him, his vision, and these communities back. This is a *very* important distinction between the two.

Negan is also important for Rick because...



But what really makes the dynamic between these two characters great is that Rick is a stick in the mud, while Negan is fun.

Well to be fair - comic Rick has had a much worse time than show Rick

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Negan appears in issue 100. Alpha appears in issue 132.

The spat with Negan lasted months in comic time. Alpha turned up two years + after that ended.

So speaking of series length, it depends. Do they cut short Negan (odd considering they extended the Governor's arc, and they're running out of material), or cut to Alpha? Do they cut out the two year gap, or create filler?

I think Negan gets all of Season 7 - and maybe some of Season 8, and then we'll get the time jump and after that...who knows?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Again - there's NO WAY we'd find Negan and the Saviors at all palatable no matter when we started following them.
They routinely kill one person right off the bat (ha!), take half of their stuff and threaten to kill more if they don't do what they're told.

They make you return to your home and return with the head of your leader in order to save hostages.

Negan may be 'charming' to some extent, and...darkly humorous at times, but he'd not someone you'd prefer over almost anyone else.

Re how palatable people would find such a group:

Have you watched historical fiction like Vikings or Black Sails? Some the best loved "heroes" are as "bad" or much worse...........

In Vikings, Ragnar and Lagetha are happy to kill, enslave, torture and in fact either enjoy all of these or just find it part of the natural order. The first episode has the main hero turn up and slaughter unarmed priests and take a few to sell as slaves - the Vikings think its a great laugh.
The main cast find it fun to string a priest up and shoot arrows at him until he dies.......

In fact pretty much everyone in the show carries out much more horrific acts than Negan/Rick and crew............

Captain Vain orchestrates the repeated gang rape of a woman and "everyone" was devastated when he died.

Negan acts like the world has changed back to these days and can be seen to be similar to a Mongol leader, Samurai Noble, Medieval king, Roman General, etc etc in fact they might consider him a bit soft

The problem being, of course, that "Civilization" has kind of said "No, not anymore!" to that way of life for hundreds of years at this point, and there are plenty of communities 2 years on that don't run themselves like that.

Still, the overall point of the show (and comic) is that Man is the True Monster Now!

So yeah, Negan shows that point rather nicely...

"Again - there's NO WAY we'd find Negan and the Saviors at all palatable no matter when we started following them."

Sorry but I thought your whole point was that we - the viewers would not want to watch them or enjoy them etc?

These other shows demonstrate that people are happy to watch such people and indeed cheer them on..............

Currently in the show we know of precisely three groups that survived that didn't run like that:

The Atlanta gangers at the start (and we have no idea what happened to them)
the Hilltop - which arguably only survives because of the Saviours
Alexandria - and Arguably the Ricktatorship veered towards this on occasion - he was getting food from the Hilltop either by trade or by gun - he stated he wasn't leaving without it.
Plus Alexandria's pre Rick survival as it was depicted was pretty damn unlikely

In contrast we have had:

The Governor
Terminus - they tried the Alexandria way and look what happened to them.....not nice.....
The Hospital people
The Saviours
The Wolves

plus various roaming gangs of "bad guys".

I'd watch a series based on Negan, but it would have to be a HBO production so he can fully express himself

Negan does remind me of Ragnar, They rule by their own code, They like messing with peoples heads, and they're both mild manner and fun loving in a way, until you piss them off, then they pull your lungs out

 Wyrmalla wrote:
So speaking of series length, it depends. Do they cut short Negan (odd considering they extended the Governor's arc, and they're running out of material), or cut to Alpha? Do they cut out the two year gap, or create filler?

I'd say two or three seasons, depending on the filler and if they cut out stuff. Negan should last, and there's a lot to work with their. Given that the Saviours were fairly flat they could do with expanding, particular Negan's reasons and giving Dwight more to do (also possibly bringing his second in command who only appears after the time skip).

If they really need to make things last they could spend a season just building up to the Whisperers.

Well, that's a question complicated by the fact that some of these people may want to move on soon. Not a big deal if it's an actor playing a secondary character...the writers are certainly happy to off them in that instance. But if Andrew Lincoln decides 7 seasons on one television show is enough -- and really, wouldn't it be? -- then maybe they wouldn't be eager to draw things out *too* much. They could even wrap up the series after All Out War...give a little glimpse forward at the end of the series finale and call it a wrap before we even get to that group.

Note that they do have their backup plan in place already.

When you get down to brass tacks, I think it'd be possible for them to cover everything up to the end of All Out War in season 7 and still do a solid job with the material. Sixteen episodes to cover 26 issues should be doable. Thirty two episodes feels like too many, although you never know what new stuff they'd introduce, and they might be motivated to stretch it if Jeffrey Dean Morgan's Negan proves to be popular. They could shoot for 24, but I don't know that they'd want to handle the thing that happens after All Out War over a midseason break. A New Beginning seems like a much more natural fit for a season opener, so my bet is that we're looking at 1 or 2 whole seasons for everything through All Out War.

Hmm...that was more rambling than I intended. If I had to bet on that particular group's appearance, I'd guess I'd go with season 9, although I'm not even confident that the series will get that far.

The current strength of the show lasting is actually the atmosphere they talk about regularly that Lincoln is such a large part of developing. If he's invested (and he seems to be) I don't think he cares when the show ends. They've certainly given him plenty to work with. Add in the rest of the crew, the free hand it seems to mostly enjoy, and that they only film 16 episodes a year (leaving plenty of time for other projects) and I think most are in it for the haul.

That is one of the strengths to a non-22/23 episode season. You've cut 1-2 months of shooting out for that.

Plus they've (allegedly) already mapped out where they want to go through season 12!

I expect the doctor at The Hilltop will get a lot more screentime now that Denise is dead. What was his name...Carson?

 Kanluwen wrote:
How long before we see The Whisperers, any bets?

No earlier than Season 8.


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If one of the BIG names like Andrew Lincoln wants to move on then I think their character should be recasted. Worked reasonably well for Spartacus (though that was because the original actor passed away from cancer).