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I'd point to out that I don't think Spencer is going g to fight. From everything I felt from the character it was a set up for him to be a traitor/turncoat.

Liked the episode but I'm done with Broken Rock again. I don't feel Daryl is broken but Rock has been here before and I don't need to see it again.


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I'd point to out that I don't think Spencer is going g to fight. From everything I felt from the character it was a set up for him to be a traitor/turncoat.

Liked the episode but I'm done with Broken Rock again. I don't feel Daryl is broken but Rock has been here before and I don't need to see it again.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
He is far more of an arsehole than in the comics. Nobody was taken prisoner and subjected to torture in the comics.

Just watched it and that was my thought as well. This version of Negan and Dwight is much more evil than the comic version. Comic Negan was brutal no doubt but there was a fairness to him. He had his own code. In the comic I would say deep down underneath it all Negan does want to rebuild civilization even if he has to use iron fisted tactics to do it. I don't get that from TV Negan at all, this guy is just a total A-Hole. I think this version of the story is going to end up in a much different place than the comic did.

Good episode - Negan was much much fun and got the infamous line in as well - nice.

Agreed - I also think its going to be quicker - Rick is all about the numbers - Hilltop is not enough but wtih the Kingdom - likely enough? Also it means that they have a shed load more non-names to use as canon fodder and keep the rest of the cast alive.

In the comics however they had not lost all their guns IIRC.

Spencer could go either way - he could try to be one of Negans crew - better life higher up. I am slightly missing why they covered up Maggie's move to hilltop - Negan is likely to go there anyway and previously showed no more interest in her than the other women. Yeah he mouthed off about ehr this episode but that was prodding Rick and they would not have known it was going to happen.

They covered it up because the need to keep her 'out of sight' as she's got NO interest in playing nice - she's out for blood.

It just also happened to work out as, apparently, Show Negan is so over the top that he had intended to add her to his harem/list of accomplishments?

Way over the top with him so far.

If they're trying to 'out do' comics Negan...OK?

But it isn't sustainable and it isn't believable - a character like that would eventually get whacked by one of his own, too fed up to put up with his crap anymore.

Comics Negan ran an iron fisted protection racket that at least made some sense - and they even mocked that angle in the show!

Yup, hes very one dimensional so far in the show.
I cant get his motivations at all barring being on over sexed, vicious thug with a huge ego.
A believable character in a post apocalyptic world? Maybe.
An interesting one however? Nope.

I hope they drop the alpha male BS with him and expand a bit more otherwise its a tedious characature inserted only to "break" Ricks group in liue of them making a comeback. Cheap plot writing.

 Alpharius wrote:
They covered it up because the need to keep her 'out of sight' as she's got NO interest in playing nice - she's out for blood.

It just also happened to work out as, apparently, Show Negan is so over the top that he had intended to add her to his harem/list of accomplishments?

Way over the top with him so far.

If they're trying to 'out do' comics Negan...OK?

But it isn't sustainable and it isn't believable - a character like that would eventually get whacked by one of his own, too fed up to put up with his crap anymore.

Comics Negan ran an iron fisted protection racket that at least made some sense - and they even mocked that angle in the show!

It sounds funny to say it, but it's really the complexities and subtleties of comic Negan that make the character work. Show Negan isn't showing any of that yet. It's like the veneer is Negan, but he's a different guy underneath. They also seem to be trying hard to establish Dwight as a major league jagoff, where as in the books he was this beaten-down, mopey, competent but kinda hapless guy.

However --

1) We presumably have plenty of time to get to know this Negan. Still, the whole cultlike angle he has going on is just weird and really, really different. Seems like we're only going to get more of that and not a pullback.

2) It's a TV show that plays to wide audiences, and the producers have shown that they'll go lowbrow or skip subtleties if they think it's best for ratings.

I shouldn't be surprised that they're going back to the 'broken Rick' well for the umpteenth time...but I kinda am.

I kind of predicted this would happen. The problem is the TV Governor was kind of like a cross between and Comic Governor and Comic Negan. That means TV Negan is going to....also be a cross between Comic Governor and Comic Negan. In fact I would say there's more of Comic Negan's personality and motivations in TV Governor and more of Comic Governor in TV Negan so far. TV Negan is constantly threatening to cut off people's limbs and just seems to want to want to cause suffering to his fellow man. (Total Comic Governor stuff).

There's been many scenes so far where I'm thinking why don't they just kill Negan? Like if Carl had just shot Negan in that house the whole thing would be over. The Saviors are just a cult of personalty that would fall apart instantly if he was killed. It's like that hospital were they killed the leader and everyone was just like "meh, hated her anyway.

Maybe they just didn't think comic Negan and comic Saviors were EVIL enough. Again...it's a basic cable TV show.

I really don't know why else they'd go down this path when Negan and the Saviors worked much better and more sensibly in the comics. *shrug*

I feel like with Rick's group having gotten so jaded and pre-emptive striking and murdering people in their sleep the producers had to make the Saviors horrible so that people still saw them as the bad guys.

I do hope we get a bit more depth into Negan. I love the portrayal but it currently is very one dimensional and after only seeing him for 45 minutes of screen time I'm wondering how he hasn't been knocked off yet.

Hulk has the right of it, methinks. Rick and Co. murder a TON of them in their sleep. Negan "only" killed Abe in retribution (Glenn was to teach Daryl a lesson, and was a separate act). Right now, brutal as it was compared to a quick incision in their sleep, Rick's team still performed a far larger amount of evil killings. We need "proof" that their actions were the actions of heroes, and not villains.

That might be right regarding them doubling down on EVIL.

Regarding why it seems like Negan should have been taken out by now, it's possible that (comic spoilers ahead):



TLDR; some folks in the audience aren't too bright and need to spoonfed.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Hulk has the right of it, methinks. Rick and Co. murder a TON of them in their sleep. Negan "only" killed Abe in retribution (Glenn was to teach Daryl a lesson, and was a separate act). Right now, brutal as it was compared to a quick incision in their sleep, Rick's team still performed a far larger amount of evil killings. We need "proof" that their actions were the actions of heroes, and not villains.

That's true. It's hard to argue the Alexandrians didn't have this coming....

Some people have to much time on their hands Did anyone else notice daryl looking lovingly at rick?

Funnily enough, I did notice that he was blinking rapidly and the thought did cross my mind.

I absolutely wouldn't have the time or interest to translate it though.

Darn thats interesting! Very cool

Yeah, gotta agree that Negan's shtick wore out for me pretty quick, and now I just find it to be really implausible that he always acts this way and has anybody willing to follow him. Hulk's point about the showrunners feeling the need to make Negan worse than what the Alexandrians did is a really good point, and probably true. Whatever the reason, it has made the saviors as a whole a LOT less interesting than they could/should be. I actually would have really liked for them to be kind of the flipside of the Governor...mainly they look terrible from the outside, but really they're just doing what they felt needed to be done to save society as a whole (which I gather is closer to how they are portrayed in the comics), wheres the Governor/Woodbury looked great from the outside, but had a rotten core.

Its too bad, because I would really like to see some interesting actual communities and politics portrayed in the show moving forward so it feels like there is a strange world being built rather than just Rick & Co. constantly destroying one group after the next. What I think the Saviors in the show really need is at least ONE lieutenant that hasn't been tortured/screwed over by Negan that isn't portrayed as a complete psycho. To believe the Saviors work as a group without someone killing Negan, we need to see someone who benefits from their organization. The closest we have is Diwght, but hes' a bad candidate because he left and returned to the group and therefore got a really harsh 'punishment', so even when seeing the group through his eyes, we're left wondering how the heck he can stand it. But I understand that doing this would mean humanizing Negan and making him less black and white as a villian, which is something the show seems to not want to do (probably for the reason Hulk pointed out).

---

As for why the Alexandrians don't just kill Negan when they get the chance: I still don't see that as a really viable strategy. There's no reason to believe that killing Negan wouldn't result in his policies being carried out and all of the Alexandrians being killed in retaliation before the Saviors figure out what to do next. Besides, the saviors clearly do have some kind of hierarchy, with Negan mentioning his 'right hand man' previously (and Dwight seeming to have some kind of special standing as well), so I don't think the death of Negan would necessarily spell the end of the Saviors. Instead, I think someone else would get to step up and take the mantle of 'Negan'...literally getting to call themselves that from then on, and probably using Lucille, etc. That's one of the advantages of having all the saviors call themselves Negan...that name become symbol which can simply be passed onto the next 'Negan' who becomes the leader.

 Alpharius wrote:
They covered it up because the need to keep her 'out of sight' as she's got NO interest in playing nice - she's out for blood.

It just also happened to work out as, apparently, Show Negan is so over the top that he had intended to add her to his harem/list of accomplishments?

Way over the top with him so far.

If they're trying to 'out do' comics Negan...OK?

But it isn't sustainable and it isn't believable - a character like that would eventually get whacked by one of his own, too fed up to put up with his crap anymore.

Comics Negan ran an iron fisted protection racket that at least made some sense - and they even mocked that angle in the show!

Hmm given that Negan could have have visted Hilltop at any point as part of a tribute tour keeping her out of sight is tricky - and he does not like secrets. its not yet clear if Negan follows the comics versions rules on women - no rape / physical coersion of women but there are indications he is similar. He offered to marry the kid sister and accepted sherries own offer rather than rape / marry her/them whatever despite both being low ranking members of the society , he did say to D that he can have "any woman as long as she says yes" and he was not happy when the one of his people manhandled the woman in charge of the armoury without apparent cause ( of course as soon as there is cause - well thats all fine). It would have been interesting to see how he would have reacted to the guy touching/harressing the young girl with the balloons - might have given us a bit of inisght into his "rules".

He did not just take a wife or wives which he is in absolutely a position to do and would be relitively normal in the sort of society he is building - its pretty similar to fuedal system that worked across the world from Europe to Japan for millenia. You have a "strong Man" and his warriors, they are supported by a slave/worker/serf class who have little to no rights, the more brutal followers are restrained a bit - they are best used against enemies. I Imagine his chosen followers are given quite a bit of leeway but only within the "rules" - ti will be tricky - you have got to keep them sacred of you but also happy with their lot - again keeping a serf class helps with this - as its - hey look you ain't these poor bastards, enjoy the perks.

He is doing nothing new or unproved to work in the real world. People will accept an awful lot to have at least some degree of safety and security - and thats what the show has commincated with the Kingdom and the Whole D/Sherrie deal.

Lastly I think he had to be harsh with the Alexandrians - they attacked his people, killed 30-40 of them without loss and made him look bad - thats when your subordinates take you out - not becuase you are harsh to them but because you look weak. The guy dealing with the Kingdom seemed relaxed with the whole thing and reasonable - it was just he had one of the more dickish "warriors" with him.

 yakface wrote:
I actually would have really liked for them to be kind of the flipside of the Governor...mainly they look terrible from the outside, but really they're just doing what they felt needed to be done to save society as a whole (which I gather is closer to how they are portrayed in the comics)

They don't really do that in the books. It's really just a straightforward protection racket...and one in which the Saviors DO provide protection. They take out the walkers so you can go produce. Which they've weirdly downplayed in the show.

In the books, Negan's racket -- although exploitative and grossly slanted in favor of him -- sorta represents a step up the developmental scale from the Governor. With Negan, there is a kind of exchange of goods and services going on between communities. The Governor, in comparison, was a simple despot. I think this is a very important point that's getting lost in the show right now.

Its too bad, because I would really like to see some interesting actual communities and politics portrayed in the show moving forward so it feels like there is a strange world being built rather than just Rick & Co. constantly destroying one group after the next.

All I'll say is maybe you shouldn't give up on the show just yet.

the guy touching/harressing the young girl with the balloons

I found that really creepy.

 Ratius wrote:

the guy touching/harressing the young girl with the balloons

I found that really creepy.

It was - and I assume it was meant to be - partly to underline how bad the Saviours were in comparison to the Alexandrians and the Kingdom?

Yes agreed on the reasoning.
Still darn creepy though! You could see Carl on camera even going "grrrr"

 Ratius wrote:

the guy touching/harressing the young girl with the balloons

I found that really creepy.

I think thats just setting up his character for later...

There's been many scenes so far where I'm thinking why don't they just kill Negan? Like if Carl had just shot Negan in that house the whole thing would be over. The Saviors are just a cult of personalty that would fall apart instantly if he was killed. It's like that hospital were they killed the leader and everyone was just like "meh, hated her anyway.

Except people also never do that sort of thing even in TV shows, by this point if they had killed Negan - the rest of his crew would merely have gone all out killing, raping and slaughtering and drove away happy - probably with a few surviving captives - the Saviours would then either imploded into civil war or a new Negan arose.

The Alexandrians might have even won if they had all been armed up but they were not and note that the Saviours came in armed to the teeth and ready to stamp down hard on anything. Negan is keeping his "warriors" them in check, he even let Carl off "this time".

The Alexandrians could have had someone ready with the rocket launcher, hidden outside.

And some key snipers too.

Everyone armed and ready.

In shifts, waiting for it to come.

Because the 'showing up early' things was really quite predictable.

Anyway, quickly cap Negan, then blow up the guys all nicely clustered together.

Sure, Daryl gets collateral damaged right out of the story too...

But no!

Instead, another 10 episodes of mopey survivors and over the top saviors!

 Alpharius wrote:
The Alexandrians could have had someone ready with the rocket launcher, hidden outside.

And some key snipers too.

Everyone armed and ready.

In shifts, waiting for it to come.

Because the 'showing up early' things was really quite predictable.

Anyway, quickly cap Negan, then blow up the guys all nicely clustered together.

Sure, Daryl gets collateral damaged right out of the story too...

But no!

Instead, another 10 episodes of mopey survivors and over the top saviors!

Yep they could have done all that but they needed someone to tell them to do it and hold them together when the saviours shot back - they don't have that - they have lost some of their best fighters - Abraham, Carole, The TV show has gone down the broken Rick route - so no leader, no preparation, no resistance.

Also the scenario above assumes that the Saviors are not watching the compound (which we know they are) and they can of course, when the plot requires, apparently turn all Ninja like.

But hey looking on the bright side

 Mr Morden wrote:
...and they can of course, when the plot requires, apparently turn all Ninja like.

Ha!

Good call there!

That is rather ridiculous, isn't it?

 Alpharius wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
...and they can of course, when the plot requires, apparently turn all Ninja like.

Ha!

Good call there!

That is rather ridiculous, isn't it?

Hey its a ridiculous show

The problem is that all the groups of bad guys are absolute psychopathic degenerates on the show, not just 'bad people'.

Negan needed to be different to show how Rick could have become, where a cult of personality can easily grow in lawless situations. But instead he's insane, which is a bummer, but I guess the show needed him to quickly be recognized as the bad guy the good guys have to fight.

It's *possible* that they walk Negan back from here, showing his smarts and plan. I'm not sure how effective that would be, however.

It's very disappointing that they aren't getting him quite right on the show, given how ridiculously dialed-in Kirkman is with that character. Just about every page Negan is in is gold.

Agreed!

Especially as I *love* where Negan is 'now' in the comics!

I really want him to get there on the show too!

I actually laugh out loud when reading the books.

I think Morgan is doing a perfectly fine job with the acting, but the writing is letting him down a bit. Funny that it's the TV version that could be described as 'cartoony'.