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Imagine a 3-way running gun battle through Trash City between Rick's Milita, The Trash People and The Saviours. Rick and the Saviours unknowingly attack simultaneously and the Trash People are caught between the two factions.

Maybe Rick and Negan could accidentally run into each other and have a personal showdown towards the end of the battle before they're both forced to retreat.

What's the point in the trash people again? Do they even have an analogy in the comics? Are they setting them up to take the place of some other group which they TV show's thrown under the bus (all I can think of is the show's portrayal of Ocean Side)?

No, the Trash People appear to be purely a TV invention.

Though it's possible they're intended to be a precursor to and foreshadowing of...

I certainly hope not...because this would be a terrible introduction if that were the case.

I think there are a few conceptual echoes of the Scavengers from the comics in the trash people. The Wolves kinda took the Scavengers' spot in the story, but there wasn't much thematic resemblance between those two groups.

And no, I don't think (or maybe it's better said that I DO hope)...

Well, that episode happened.

I am personally so sick of characters suddenly getting these grand visions in their head that rule out all logical thinking until it all eventually collapses down on their head and they are forced to realize it was probably not a great idea. How many times is the show going to use this trope over and over again and expect us to care? Morgan not killing anyone. Carol wanting to live by herself and not talk to anyone. Rick wanting to farm and do no violence at all. Rick wanting to kill everyone all the time (and I'm sure I'm missing dozens from this list). I feel like Gabriel himself has had 1-2 different types of these crusades before. Were we supposed to care about him getting redemption if he managed to get the doctor back to Hilltop? Were we supposed to root for his failure because his 'quest' was obviously ridiculous?

Why can't we have real, actual character development on this show instead of constant ping-ponging of behavior types?

I just don't get it. Last week a chunk of the episode was about Neegan preaching about trying to figure out a way to resolve the war with as few casualties as possible. Then Simon goes and wipes out the trash people and not only do we get absolutely no resolution to that story (not a single member of Simon's team has more loyalty to Neegan than Simon? Really?) but all of a sudden this week Neegan wants to suddenly turn all the Hilltop people into zombies? And that wasn't even presented like Neegan was making a big change in approach, but rather just an idea that he got from Eugene?

Really?

I felt Gabriel came into his own this week.

This episode felt like it’s building toward something. What? I dunno. But sufficient piqued my interest to see next week’s entry.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Really?

I felt Gabriel came into his own this week.

This episode felt like it’s building toward something. What? I dunno.

...?

Sometimes, I don't know...

Does MDG deserve The Walking Dead, or does The Walking Dead deserve MDG?!?

Well, that episode happened.

I dispute the veracity of this statement. My experience was pressing play on my PVR, then an hour later nothing had really changed.

Was just nice to see no Rick, Carl and Michonne taking centre stage.

Gabriel has been around for a while, and hasn't received a great deal of character development.

This felt like a step in the right direction at least.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Well, that episode happened.

I dispute the veracity of this statement. My experience was pressing play on my PVR, then an hour later nothing had really changed.

Yeah, this.

Am I just hatewatching it now?

I dunno...I probably 'liked' this one more than any episode in the first half of the season.

I get that people are tired of the vision quest thing, and don't necessarily disagree. However, I'm fairly confident that Gabriel's arrival at the bullet factory will end with him realizing he's in precisely the right place. It was already suggested by a new doctor's arrival at the Hilltop. The Lord has provided and put the pieces in the right spots...Gabriel just doesn't realize it yet and needs to hold onto his faith. At least I think that's where it will go.

Characters...sure, they continue to be an issue. I didn't think the show could ruin a character from the comics more than they did with Andrea, but Eugene is now #2 with a bullet. (Ha.)

Negan is still messy. I don't think the end was meant to suggest that he wants a war of annihilation just yet. But the actor and script tend to go for the 'muah-ha-has' and make that a little unclear. He's such a great character in the comics, and yet this creative team can't seem to figure out what to do with him. It's very frustrating, and with Carl now out of the picture I'm wondering about Negan's future. Feels like there's less need all the time for him to follow the path in the comics.

And Tara...man o man. Baffling that they'd keep that character around and kill off Carl, especially if *that* is what they plan to do with her.

Anyway, yeah, it wasn't particularly good television. But the bar has been set low by the midseason finale, and at least I wasn't scratching my head about where people are and what the heck they're doing. And at least the overproduced closeups and dramatic music are gone, along with the endless big speeches that fall flat. It's starting to feel a little more like TWD in the second half, and I think it's an improvement. They could only have gone up, of course, and I'm not sure it's going to be enough to reverse the steep ratings decline.

Like with Game of Thrones, I've gotten to the point where I'm actively looking forward to its eventual cancellation. Hopefully they get enough forewarning to write a proper ending that wraps up loose ends.

The only reason I'm still watching the show is because I'm a fan of the comics and I've watched the show so far, so might as see it through to the conclusion.

I recorded it on monday but couldn't be arsed to watch it until Wednesday.I was in no hurry. I used to stay up late into the night on Sunday to watch it at the same time as the Americans, I was that excited for it.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Like with Game of Thrones, I've gotten to the point where I'm actively looking forward to its eventual cancellation. Hopefully they get enough forewarning to write a proper ending that wraps up loose ends.

The only reason I'm still watching the show is because I'm a fan of the comics and I've watched the show so far, so might as see it through to the conclusion.

I recorded it on monday but couldn't be arsed to watch it until Wednesday.I was in no hurry. I used to stay up late into the night on Sunday to watch it at the same time as the Americans, I was that excited for it.

And once again it seems to overestimate the comic audience. Why did we have to see the future vision quest from Carl on his deathbed? Everything in it was a spoiler for what's currently going on in the comic. A truly bizarre approach. Were they trying to say to the comic audience hold on guys I know you're not happy right now but look we're totally going to go where the comic is soon. After many years of watching this show I know its a red herring to feth over the comic readers. They'll swerve off in a completely different direction in a Ah Ha comic doucbags betcha didn't see that coming! Totally tricked you with that Carl spoiler vision quest thing that we did for some reason. Either way it's dumb and pointless.

I rather fear you’re taking their decisions a little personally.

Anyways.

Last night’s episode, and so much needed action. Nice to see Negan and Rick have a bit of a showdown, and I’m interested to see how this all turns out for Simon.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Like with Game of Thrones, I've gotten to the point where I'm actively looking forward to its eventual cancellation. Hopefully they get enough forewarning to write a proper ending that wraps up loose ends.

The only reason I'm still watching the show is because I'm a fan of the comics and I've watched the show so far, so might as see it through to the conclusion.

I recorded it on monday but couldn't be arsed to watch it until Wednesday.I was in no hurry. I used to stay up late into the night on Sunday to watch it at the same time as the Americans, I was that excited for it.

And once again it seems to overestimate the comic audience. Why did we have to see the future vision quest from Carl on his deathbed? Everything in it was a spoiler for what's currently going on in the comic. A truly bizarre approach. Were they trying to say to the comic audience hold on guys I know you're not happy right now but look we're totally going to go where the comic is soon. After many years of watching this show I know its a red herring to feth over the comic readers. They'll swerve off in a completely different direction in a Ah Ha comic doucbags betcha didn't see that coming! Totally tricked you with that Carl spoiler vision quest thing that we did for some reason. Either way it's dumb and pointless.

Doing more bait and switches to troll comic fans will simply alienate me.

I'm already scratching my head wondering how they're going to paper over the gigantic hole that killing Carl off has created.

And yet another week has started, and two days have passed by before it even occurs to me to watch TWD. In fact, TWD would never even have crossed my mind if this thread had not jumped to the top of my Subscribed list. Didn't use to be this way, I used to stay up til 4am on a Monday morning to watch it at the same time as the Yanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, this episode was the final nail in the coffin for the character assassination of Eugene.

Not only have they completed perverted his character from the comics and made him into a traitor, but they've now...



I'm fething done with this show, I want it to hurry and end. They're actively spiting comic fans now.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I rather fear you’re taking their decisions a little personally.

Anyways.

Last night’s episode, and so much needed action. Nice to see Negan and Rick have a bit of a showdown, and I’m interested to see how this all turns out for Simon.

...did you enjoy that showdown? Especially the part where Rick unloads two clips of an AK-47 into nothing to I guess rattle Negan a bit. You'd think living 7 years in a zombie apocalypse where only head shots count would have taught him some fire discipline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Like with Game of Thrones, I've gotten to the point where I'm actively looking forward to its eventual cancellation. Hopefully they get enough forewarning to write a proper ending that wraps up loose ends.

The only reason I'm still watching the show is because I'm a fan of the comics and I've watched the show so far, so might as see it through to the conclusion.

I recorded it on monday but couldn't be arsed to watch it until Wednesday.I was in no hurry. I used to stay up late into the night on Sunday to watch it at the same time as the Americans, I was that excited for it.

And once again it seems to overestimate the comic audience. Why did we have to see the future vision quest from Carl on his deathbed? Everything in it was a spoiler for what's currently going on in the comic. A truly bizarre approach. Were they trying to say to the comic audience hold on guys I know you're not happy right now but look we're totally going to go where the comic is soon. After many years of watching this show I know its a red herring to feth over the comic readers. They'll swerve off in a completely different direction in a Ah Ha comic doucbags betcha didn't see that coming! Totally tricked you with that Carl spoiler vision quest thing that we did for some reason. Either way it's dumb and pointless.

Doing more bait and switches to troll comic fans will simply alienate me.

I'm already scratching my head wondering how they're going to paper over the gigantic hole that killing Carl off has created.

And yet another week has started, and two days have passed by before it even occurs to me to watch TWD. In fact, TWD would never even have crossed my mind if this thread had not jumped to the top of my Subscribed list. Didn't use to be this way, I used to stay up til 4am on a Monday morning to watch it at the same time as the Yanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, this episode was the final nail in the coffin for the character assassination of Eugene.

Not only have they completed perverted his character from the comics and made him into a traitor, but they've now...

Spoiler:

...introduced a random travelling Nomad lady selling schematics for windmills, watermills and all the other technological things that Eugene comes up with for the Communities after the War is over.

I'm fething done with this show, I want it to hurry and end. They're actively spiting comic fans now.

Somehow I think they'll forgive or rehabilitate Eugene. Basing this on the Carl vision quest. Even though he's gone past the point of forgiveness for me he hasn't gone as far as Dwight and it seems Daryl has forgiven Dwight for that whole torturing him thing.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Somehow I think they'll forgive or rehabilitate Eugene. Basing this on the Carl vision quest. Even though he's gone past the point of forgiveness for me he hasn't gone as far as Dwight and it seems Daryl has forgiven Dwight for that whole torturing him thing.

I don't think so. What purpose does Eugene serve now in the story? That stupid Nomad Merchant lady has taken Eugene's whole shtick, being the smart inventive type who leads the way in rebuilding society through technological innovation. At best they might have him redeem himself through a noble sacrifice, but he serves no real purpose now going forward.

The magic van lady -- let's be honest, she's a fairy godmother -- does seem to make Eugene less important. And if they off Eugene, I'm okay with it, because it's a shame what they've done to a great character in the comics.

And I'll say this -- although killing off Carl was baffling on many levels, it's very obvious that it will be the force driving the characters into the next phase. The comics have a much stronger, more consistent Rick who continually pulls the group across the line with the force of his will and guts. The show doesn't have that. So maybe it makes sense.

I don't think what we're getting right now is anywhere near the best quality TWD that we've seen, but I still think this half of the season has been an improvement over the nadir represented by the midseason finale. Feels like the characters are getting a little more room to do character stuff. I was fine waiting until Tuesday night to watch this episode however, and haven't gone near Talking Dead in forever. That says something.

I've never bothered with the Talking Dead...not a fan of that general format.

Why would I want to watch people talking about a thing I just watched when I can't join in with the conversation?

And ugh, live audience interaction.

Man I hated those trash people! Why did they talk like the kids from Thunderdome?

And is it me, or does Rick look like hes always crying?

Its not you.

The show seems more like a chore to me now. At this point I’m just trying to make it to the end since I’ve already invested years into it.

Same here. I read the comics too so I'm still watching the show out of simple curiosity to see the big set piece events of the comics play out in Live Action. But even that is losing its appeal now.

Currently chewing my way through the previous seasons, and up to the second half of Season 4.

Whlist I continue to enjoy the show, there’s little doubt the quality has declined. But for my money, it’s still one of the few shows on TV I have any intrerest in whatsoever.

But where do people feel the problem(s) actually lie? Is the premise just a bit tired? Is the script, direction, acting?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Somehow I think they'll forgive or rehabilitate Eugene. Basing this on the Carl vision quest. Even though he's gone past the point of forgiveness for me he hasn't gone as far as Dwight and it seems Daryl has forgiven Dwight for that whole torturing him thing.

I don't think so. What purpose does Eugene serve now in the story? That stupid Nomad Merchant lady has taken Eugene's whole shtick, being the smart inventive type who leads the way in rebuilding society through technological innovation. At best they might have him redeem himself through a noble sacrifice, but he serves no real purpose now going forward.

Trouble with TV shows, is that actors may want to quit. Could be Eugene doesn’t survive Season 8, because the actor wants to move on.

Killing off important characters who still have crucial roles to play in the comics for crude shock value, leaving a big hole in the story that they're going to struggle to fill adequutely with another character, for one.

The show's pacing has always been abysmal. I don't think there's anything new wrong with it; just people increasingly aware of how little actual story there is in each episode. I also think for some reason Negan comes across in the show a bit more as the Gov 2.0 than he did in the comics. All Out War feels more like the Prison than I remember and I think that really makes the show feel like its lost its purpose.

I feel they need to wrap up Negan, and could’ve done so a bit quicker.

Going off-piste from the comics doesn’t bother me, as I’ve never read them. I’m not one to mix my mediums, by and large, preferring to enjoy one on its own merits until it’s concluded.

 LunarSol wrote:
The show's pacing has always been abysmal. I don't think there's anything new wrong with it; just people increasingly aware of how little actual story there is in each episode. I also think for some reason Negan comes across in the show a bit more as the Gov 2.0 than he did in the comics. All Out War feels more like the Prison than I remember and I think that really makes the show feel like its lost its purpose.

Kirkman just handles these characters better in the comic than the writers do in the show. Comic Negan is a *tremendous* character. You hate his guts and yet you also end up literally laughing out loud at the gak that comes out of his mouth (word balloon?). But y'know, a comic writer has complete control over his characters. It's not like that with live actors. It's more of a partnership that creates the characters.

As I've said many times in this thread, the show is highly focused on the changing moods of Rick. Comic Rick has had his ups and downs, but is a FAR more consistent personality than show Rick, who alternates between 'broken Rick' and 'bloodthirsty Rick' within just about every season. Part of that is probably because you have to give the star of your show some 'acting' to do. But it can make it feel like these characters drift a lot. Over time that adds up.

It should also be said that at a certain point, the ratings got crazy good, and that probably changed their approach to the show. It's different being a hit with general audiences than with a niche audience, and I think we saw a lot of very 'TV' styled audience manipulation in recent seasons in an attempt to keep those boffo ratings. In the process, I think they lost sight of telling the best story that they could.

Anyone else think that the 'jump the shark' moment was probably the Glenn dumpster dive?