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 gorgon wrote:

Anyone else think that the 'jump the shark' moment was probably the Glenn dumpster dive?

Half of our viewing party decided they were done with the show after that one, so... yeah.

I was done before then, personally, but certainly by the time they had Glenn miraculously survive and then have Negan beat him to death anyway showed a degree of completely flailing with its characters.

Currently on the episode where we, erm....look at the flowers.

And it’s struck me that part of the problem may be that we the audience have become desensitised to the horrors the characters face.

On one hand, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. We see that they largely maintain their moral centres. Many of their actions are The Right Choice, however distasteful.

On the other, it does seem inevitable. The horde in Season 6 was a cracker in my opinion. Seeing the characters being smart, thinking their way out of it was very pleasing. But that’s an inevitable One Trick Pony. You just can’t replicate that, or increase the Walker threat beyond that point. Yet you have to do it sooner or later, or the threat becomes stale anyways.

Other slightly irksome things? The trick of covering yourself in gore, forgotten. Michonne’s Chop Shop Camoflague, forgotten. Sure the former is high risk due to the possibility of infections and diseases, but Michonne’s works.

Of course now, they’re focusing on the threat to new found civilisation. And not just a temporary reprieve. The Season 6 horde proved that between Alexandria’s walls, and a bit of thought, Alexandria is walker proof. It’s the humans that are the problem.

I fear that what they’ve failed to sell in the show (again, haven’t read the comics!) is why, with townships now established, they just can’t get along. That of course is a failure of story telling. Whilst I enjoy the interactions and the wider plot, there’s a missing link of motivation for just why Negan is so hard core. This week’s episode explained that a bit. And whilst I appreciate that effort, too little too late for many I fear. What most will know is that Rick and Negan hate each other, largely because reasons.

Why is Negan so brutal when he first meets people? How does he manage to rule over so many? I mean, I love the character, and I like the actor’s portrayal. But again, there’s just a slice of motivation missing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There’s also the issue of suddenly disposable cast members.

In the early seasons, there was at least an attempt to develop The Soon To Be Deceased so we felt the impact of their death.

And it can still be upsetting when a major character snuffs it, but they’re running out of those. Lots of Alexandrians have died. Anonymously. People you’ve never seen, even in the background, show up, then get shot up.

And that leads to my feeling that Alexandria has near infinite inhabitants, always just enough for a bit of a massacre which doesn’t actually dent numbers.

Consider Hilltop. We basically know Jesus and Gregory. Everyone else is relegated to cannon fodder or set dressing.

You know what I think the show needs? An episode or two where we don’t follow the Main Players. A below decks story where we see the inhabitants of Hilltop having a general chit chat about the situation. Give us a fresh perspective. Show that whilst they ultimately toe the line, it’s not done as blindly as it currently seems.

After all, everyone that’s survived this long is A Survivor. They must have some sort of skill, so give them some agency, eh?

 gorgon wrote:


It should also be said that at a certain point, the ratings got crazy good, and that probably changed their approach to the show. It's different being a hit with general audiences than with a niche audience, and I think we saw a lot of very 'TV' styled audience manipulation in recent seasons in an attempt to keep those boffo ratings. In the process, I think they lost sight of telling the best story that they could.

Yes, absolutely!

 gorgon wrote:


Anyone else think that the 'jump the shark' moment was probably the Glenn dumpster dive?

Definitely.

The show, while not quite becoming unwatchable, is definitely no longer worth watching.

I stopped watching after S7E7, just before the mid season finale, the RPG death animation was unwatchable, not to mention the reason behind it.

Looking back, I think when TWD started its death roll downhill, is when it let its female director to go do its off shoot FTWD; they just recycle the same story line, stick too close to the comics. Comic contents should stick to the comics, its unwatchable on a tv platform.

I had really wish they did some kind of bump in with Clementine, the characters from the video game.

 Big Mac wrote:
I stopped watching after S7E7, just before the mid season finale, the RPG death animation was unwatchable, not to mention the reason behind it.

Looking back, I think when TWD started its death roll downhill, is when it let its female director to go do its off shoot FTWD; they just recycle the same story line, stick too close to the comics. Comic contents should stick to the comics, its unwatchable on a tv platform.

I had really wish they did some kind of bump in with Clementine, the characters from the video game.

Clementine is still a possibility, she's still alive as of this point in the comic timeline.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:
I stopped watching after S7E7, just before the mid season finale, the RPG death animation was unwatchable, not to mention the reason behind it.

Looking back, I think when TWD started its death roll downhill, is when it let its female director to go do its off shoot FTWD; they just recycle the same story line, stick too close to the comics. Comic contents should stick to the comics, its unwatchable on a tv platform.

I had really wish they did some kind of bump in with Clementine, the characters from the video game.

Clementine is still a possibility, she's still alive as of this point in the comic timeline.

Spoiler:

We know from Telltale's The Walking Dead Season 3: The New Frontier that Clementine is still alive and well in Richmond 2 year after All Out War. She even runs into Jesus, during his mounted Samurai Warrior phase.

I didn't know that!

Clementine might be the only thing that can save TWD TV show.

 Big Mac wrote:
Comic contents should stick to the comics, its unwatchable on a tv platform.

All the worst stuff in the TV show is stuff that never happened in the books.

 gorgon wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:
Comic contents should stick to the comics, its unwatchable on a tv platform.

All the worst stuff in the TV show is stuff that never happened in the books.

I disagree, the whole tiger and kingdom is beyond stupid imo and should be left out and replaced with something else. You don't like Darryl and Merrill's character that's added in?

 Big Mac wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:
Comic contents should stick to the comics, its unwatchable on a tv platform.

All the worst stuff in the TV show is stuff that never happened in the books.

I disagree, the whole tiger and kingdom is beyond stupid imo and should be left out and replaced with something else. You don't like Darryl and Merrill's character that's added in?

Note that what I said is not the same thing as saying everything not in the comics is bad.

The Kingdom is fine with me. I have no problems believing there could be some wacky communities in the aftermath of a zombie apocalypse. Zombies are sillier than tigers. Daryl is a solid character, but he feels less important in the show all the time.

Didn't Kirkman say he put the tiger in the comic specifically to feth with the TV production staff and see how they'd handle it when they caught up with that part of the story?

 gorgon wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:
Comic contents should stick to the comics, its unwatchable on a tv platform.

All the worst stuff in the TV show is stuff that never happened in the books.

I disagree, the whole tiger and kingdom is beyond stupid imo and should be left out and replaced with something else. You don't like Darryl and Merrill's character that's added in?

Note that what I said is not the same thing as saying everything not in the comics is bad.

The Kingdom is fine with me. I have no problems believing there could be some wacky communities in the aftermath of a zombie apocalypse. Zombies are sillier than tigers. Daryl is a solid character, but he feels less important in the show all the time.

On the Daryl point, I think you may have something there.

Let’s take stock of our long time survivors. We’re essentially down to Rick, Carol, Maggie, Daryl, Michonne and Morgan. All strong characters, all capable. All believable as Survivors. Which is fine.

But....none of them have really developed since they settled in Alexandria. And worse, my previous point - nobody else has really received a great deal of development in their stead.

So whilst I still enjoy the show, it does need more than a bit of spit and polish. You can’t throw Drama at characters, and not have it noticeably change them and their relationships to each other.

Now I’m not creative enough to posit how that should be done. Just that as a regular viewer, they need to do something in that regard.

 Mysterio wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:
I stopped watching after S7E7, just before the mid season finale, the RPG death animation was unwatchable, not to mention the reason behind it.

Looking back, I think when TWD started its death roll downhill, is when it let its female director to go do its off shoot FTWD; they just recycle the same story line, stick too close to the comics. Comic contents should stick to the comics, its unwatchable on a tv platform.

I had really wish they did some kind of bump in with Clementine, the characters from the video game.

Clementine is still a possibility, she's still alive as of this point in the comic timeline.

Spoiler:

We know from Telltale's The Walking Dead Season 3: The New Frontier that Clementine is still alive and well in Richmond 2 year after All Out War. She even runs into Jesus, during his mounted Samurai Warrior phase.

I didn't know that!

Clementine might be the only thing that can save TWD TV show.

That would just annoy me. I like how the comic and game are in the same universe and the show is over in its own.

Better episode tonight. Though they really need to be wrapping up The Saviours plot arc this season.

Much as I think they do big set piece battles really well (tactics being demonstrated, and the benefit thereof), they don’t allow a great deal of character development.

Case in point? Dr Disposable. Seemingly only introduced to ‘rubber stamp’ Siddiq as a medically trained person that’ll be learning on the job. I swear she’s fresh out of nowhere as a character, and only obliquely referenced by Maggie in a recent episode. And even then, it was so oblique I assumed she was referring to Siddiq himself when she said they’d got themselves a Doctor!

She was referring to Sidique. It was in the context of a discussion on how Carl sacrificed his life saving a stranger and bringing him into Alexandria > and now they have a Doctor. Direct causal link implied in the conversation.

This new female Doctor at the Hilltop was literally invented and killed off in one episode. I didn't even learn her name. Thats how disposable background characters are on this show, they're invented just to be killed off. Its as if random strangers including Doctors just wander into the 3 communities on a daily basis, are instantly accepted and integrated into the general population without any on-screen acknowledgement from the main cast, and then killed off immediately for a superficial sense of drama and tragedy.

When Simon began creeping up on Tara with his infected knife I thought "Gak! Maybe someone of importance will actually be killed off this episode!" But nope...they had Dwight shoot her with an untainted arrow to protect her from Simon (instead of having him shoot Rick as in the comics).

The only character of note that I know died this episode was Tobin, the guy from Alexandria who Carol had a brief tryst with. I was puzzled as to why they seemed so close, I'd forgotten that they had something between them. And I actually forgot his name too, and had to look it up. I just recognised his face.

So...yet another shallow filler episode where nothing of any real importance occurs.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Better episode tonight. Though they really need to be wrapping up The Saviours plot arc this season.

Much as I think they do big set piece battles really well (tactics being demonstrated, and the benefit thereof), they don’t allow a great deal of character development.

Case in point? Dr Disposable. Seemingly only introduced to ‘rubber stamp’ Siddiq as a medically trained person that’ll be learning on the job. I swear she’s fresh out of nowhere as a character, and only obliquely referenced by Maggie in a recent episode. And even then, it was so oblique I assumed she was referring to Siddiq himself when she said they’d got themselves a Doctor!

To each their own, I suppose.

After last week's way more fun/interesting episode, I felt like we went right back to the 'trope' playbook, where everything has to play out in the same tired way exactly as it needs to be as dictated by the playbook.

I still don't understand why the lack of resources in this world can't be something that actually becomes part of the action and conversation. Why is everyone still firing their guns on full auto when anyone with a brain knows its horribly inefficient/inaccurate to do so even when you've got an unlimited supply of ammo (which they certainly do not)? Why can't people have conversations about how they need to conserve ammo and then have the action scenes represent that? Because the showrunners clearly think that having tons of guns firing on full auto is a way to hide how bad the show is now.

The genius defensive strategy of the Hilltop was to open their gate and just let the Saviors inside? Sure, that plan can work in an actual castle where the interior keep area is completely secure (with a second set of walls), but even that tactic was reserved only for when the enemy managed to penetrate the gate...they didn't just open their gates to let the enemy inside. Those walls around the hilltop absolutely have defensive value and they totally threw it all away. I guess they were trying to give the Saviors the impression that they were stupid/afraid? I suppose. But if that's the case, I think they could have done a much better job of showing how they fortified the interior of the walls to prevent the enemy from simply running around inside the walls getting the drop on some of the defenders. I mean, Simon and Dwight were clearly sneaking up BEHIND Tara (who was shooting at another Savior who was between her and the walls), which perfectly illustrates that their plan, at best, was terribly organized.

And yay, another idiotic child character whose only purpose is to behave like a complete idiot and push the plot forward in a completely ridiculous fashion. It is just so, so, so cliched and painful. Where the heck were the guards watching the prisoners? Are we supposed to believe that they leave the prisoners unguarded all night long with only wire to keep them locked in? Really? Really? The worst part is, if the goal was mainly just to have the prisoners escape (as it seems), it was completely unnecessary to have the kid be the one to accidentally free them given the stupid 'zombie attack at night' plot. They could have just had one shot showing the guards fleeing the cage when they heard the commotion in the house and then had the prisoners (who have no doubt been waiting for their chance to escape) spring into action and break themselves out.

Which brings me back to the stupid 'zombies attack at night' scene. This was stupid on so many levels I just kept face-palming myself because I couldn't believe they were actually doing it on the show. First, the idea that every single person hit by the poisoned arrows would die in roughly the same period of time is pretty shakey internal logic, because it goes against what we've seen time and time again on the show where some people succumb to the zombie plague much more quickly than others. But I could certainly get over that little inconsistency if it was the most egregious part of the whole situation...but sadly it wasn't.

Amazingly, EVERY SINGLE PERSON in the house goes to sleep at the same time? Apparently the only people on watch are out at the gates (which they never even bothered to show)? With that many people, that is INCREDIBLY unlikely. Nobody has insomnia? Nobody was so jacked up about the life or death battle they just lived through that they couldn't sleep? Please.

But even if every single person is unbelievably asleep when the first sick person died in their sleep, how is it magically that anytime walkers attack in the night they somehow turn into Tom Clancy zombies and manage to kill people without their victims being able to scream? Zombies don't give a crap about preventing their victims from screaming, so having even more than ONE kill happen in this fashion before everyone in the house is alerted and awakened is simply insulting. But then the showrunners had to just pile it on, and have a zombie fall down 2-3 FLIGHTS OF STAIRS AND HIT THE GROUND a few feet away from dozens of sleeping people and nobody wakes up? Those old houses are all wood and creaky as crap. Someone falling down a flight of stairs is VERY loud and people should have shot up out of their sleep when they heard that. It was just so, so idiotic.

The showrunners clearly just decided 'we need to have a zombie night attack' and threw out absolutely all logic and common sense from that point on to make it happen. Ignoring the fact that they already did essentially the same thing before in the prison season. So we absolutely did NOT need another 'zombie night attack' again in this show, as it was already done before and is therefore played out. In any decent show, our 'heroes' should have learned from the night zombie attack prison incident that they always keep someone awake during the night anytime you have injured or sick people (or really anytime, because you never know when someone is going to die from a heart attack or aneurysm). By having this night attack occur again, its another way that makes our 'heroes' seem even more like bumbling idiots, which is something this show seems to do comically often anytime they need to force a completely unbelievable situation into existence.

And again, it all wasn't needed. Since the whole zombie 'night attack' trope has already been played out in a previous season, why not go down a more interesting route where maybe ONE person turns in the night and kills ONE other person before everyone else gets awakened? Then you can actually have an interesting set of scenes where everyone figures out the weapons had to have been poisoned, and those who are infected realize they are doomed. We've obviously seen individuals bitten before facing the reality of their fate, but we've never had so many people infected/doomed all at once. So seeing how that was situation would be handled, how those people collectively would have to face the fact that they were all going to die within hours would have been something...you know...NEW.

But no. We got the same paint by numbers formula which is all this show does. Stupid defensive plan designed to make a chaotic full-auto battle? Check. Stupid stealthy night zombie attack? Check. Idiotic child who makes terrible decisions? Check. No name characters who never get any lines until the episode where they are going to die? Check, check, check.

Blegh.

I still feel the battle was beautifully executed.

They just need to do more than intro/kill new characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And my old season binge continues to Episode 1,Season 6.

Now....that quarry.

Walkers have already proven to be stupid, and their clothes flammable.

And once nicely toasted, pretty much useless.

I suspect I’m overlooking something, but why not a dozen or so strategic Molotov’s? Doesn’t matter where you lob them. Indeed, have your throwers on one side, and peeps on the other side to make some noise.

Roasty toasty, disabled if not kill the lot of them, then a leisurely head stabbing spree.

It’s not that Rick’s plan is fundamentally flawed, I just think mine is better.

I was thinking this episode about how long this war has been. If named character from either side died in each shootout we would have actually felt like what its like to go through a grueling months long bush war a la the Hatfields and the McCoys. The cast is so bloated now anyway. For example, Terra really could have died this episode, that would have been totally fine. Instead just a whole lot of Redshirts were chewed up again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 yakface wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I still don't understand why the lack of resources in this world can't be something that actually becomes part of the action and conversation. Why is everyone still firing their guns on full auto when anyone with a brain knows its horribly inefficient/inaccurate to do so even when you've got an unlimited supply of ammo (which they certainly do not)? Why can't people have conversations about how they need to conserve ammo and then have the action scenes represent that? Because the showrunners clearly think that having tons of guns firing on full auto is a way to hide how bad the show is now.

It drives me crazy as well. I do think they have some syndrome were they've decided "full auto looks better on TV" but also I swear they don't do this just because it was done in the comic.

Spoiler:

In the comic Eugene can make bullets and it's like his superpower. He is physically timid and he knows he's useless in a firefight but he wants to contribute. To make up for this he literally almost works himself to death making ammo for the Alexandrians and this is one of the main reasons they win the war. He's literally a god damn war hero to everyone for his work ethic and brains by the end. It's also why he's one of the most beloved characters in the comic.

So of course the show has to be the opposite and have Eugene a traitor who gives the Neganites unlimited ammo. Even though I think he only started up his shop like yesterday. Fortunately, it doesn't matter because The Alexandrians have unlimited ammo through the power of magic. So, like, whatever.

I'll never forgive this show for what it did to Eugene as a character.

How many members of the main cast have died this Season, besides Carl? (who is the one character besides Rick that SHOULDN'T have been killed off... )

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
How many members of the main cast have died this Season, besides Carl? (who is the one character besides Rick that SHOULDN'T have been killed off... )

I wasn't that broken up about Carl (who wasn't even killed in the war) because they had taken everything that made Carl Carl from the comic and....given it to Carol. Some typo in the manuscript gone horribly awry? One of the themes in the comic is that the generation of kids growing up now will be equal parts total badasses and totally messed up in the head as well. We look forward to seeing the Zombie Apocalypses first generation will become. In the show Carol is the next generation and the children do stupid TV things like unlock a cage full of prisoners....

Like the bizarre anti-Eugene storyline its important to make characters be the opposite of themselves...just cuz.

Meanwhile they kill characters who are likeable. I miss that one Saviour guy who lead the group at The Kingdom. In that scene I was thinking, "oh thank god, they aren't going to give this guy a cliche death and he can survive post-war as a cool character!". Then nope, gets killed by a kid. Eugh...

Sigh, that last scene where Rick breaks his word and backstabs those guys....Like I straight up hate most of the Alexandrians or whatever they should be called now. Why should I even care about what happens to them? Is this on purpose? I don’t even get what the authorial intent of all the detestable things they do is. Am I supposed to hate Rick or does this stuff make him cool and therefore endear him more to me? Ditto, on Daryl who executed an unarmed man a few episodes back.

So do any other comics readers think that...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Sigh, that last scene where Rick breaks his word and backstabs those guys....Like I straight up hate most of the Alexandrians or whatever they should be called now. Why should I even care about what happens to them? Is this on purpose? I don’t even get what the authorial intent of all the detestable things they do is. Am I supposed to hate Rick or does this stuff make him cool and therefore endear him more to me? Ditto, on Daryl who executed an unarmed man a few episodes back.

I think that reaction is just a natural result of show Rick wildly veering from Mr. Softee to Conan the Barbarian with such regularity.

I can imagine books Rick taking the same action, but there it makes sense because he's the kind of hard-ass that would have seen them as a security risk at that time.

Bit of an odd episode in terms of pacing and content, but enjoyable enough.

For those familiar with the comics, how far off-piste is the show going now? Is it sufficient that I could now read the comics without worrying about spoilers?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Bit of an odd episode in terms of pacing and content, but enjoyable enough.

For those familiar with the comics, how far off-piste is the show going now? Is it sufficient that I could now read the comics without worrying about spoilers?

Oh yeah, that was a while ago. The show just follows the general direction of the major arcs. The details are all different. Read the comic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:
So do any other comics readers think that...

Spoiler:

...they're going to skip the Whisperers and get right to the Commonwealth (or some version of it)?

Carl was the 'in' to the Whisperers in the books, and he's pushing up daisies in the show now. They could give his Romeo and Juliet stuff to someone else, but who? And would the Whisperers story be as compelling without the look inside and R&J stuff?

Meanwhile, both Georgie and the helicopter (and Jadis too, because clearly there's more going on with her than we first thought) suggest Commonwealth-level resources.

It occurs to me that telling the Whisperers story could mean walker and CGI budgets that are larger than AMC is willing to swallow at this point. A Commonwealth story -- which would probably be divergent from the books -- would certainly be cheaper.

What's more, it moves the show closer to a conclusion, which I think AMC almost certainly has to have in mind given the ratings trend and the high probability that they're going to lose key actors to other career opportunities soon. It also seems hard to believe that they'd set up the Commonwealth (or some version of it), only to set it aside for a season or two to tell the Whisperers tale. Then again, they've certainly baffled me with their decisions in recent seasons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Sigh, that last scene where Rick breaks his word and backstabs those guys....Like I straight up hate most of the Alexandrians or whatever they should be called now. Why should I even care about what happens to them? Is this on purpose? I don’t even get what the authorial intent of all the detestable things they do is. Am I supposed to hate Rick or does this stuff make him cool and therefore endear him more to me? Ditto, on Daryl who executed an unarmed man a few episodes back.

I think that reaction is just a natural result of show Rick wildly veering from Mr. Softee to Conan the Barbarian with such regularity.

I can imagine books Rick taking the same action, but there it makes sense because he's the kind of hard-ass that would have seen them as a security risk at that time.

Regarding your comic book arc story skipping theory I was thinking that as well but that’s a pretty huge storyline to skip. Maybe they’re just doing some extra early foreshadowing, I think they’ve done that before.

Two things about this week's episode....

Negan. Where did he get the pistol and flare from all of a sudden? Is it a 'blinked and missed it' bit?

Rick running into Morgan. Where did Carol go, and how did Rick get there so quick?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Two things about this week's episode....

Negan. Where did he get the pistol and flare from all of a sudden? Is it a 'blinked and missed it' bit?

Rick running into Morgan. Where did Carol go, and how did Rick get there so quick?

Negan said something along the lines of: "you obviously don't really want to kill me or you wouldn't have left this bag of guns near me". Right before she walked out with the zombie-on-a-cart, you saw him shimmy to the right really hard, and then from that line we learned that there was a bag of guns, the pictures and a flare that she had left right near him.

Rick got the info about the location of the outpost from the reformed savior prisoner and drove there. Morgan was tracking them on foot. So they just happened on the same location at the same time.

Carol had started following Morgan, but then gave up when she realized she couldn't stop Morgan from his vengeance and then wandered off and found the kid being attacked by zombies.

Ah cool. Cheers duder

Totally stoked to see the greasy long haired saviour creep get scoffed at long last.

Yep, it was pretty inexplicable why a bag of guns was there, but I am taking the view that this is all just some group RPing PA based on the WD survivors and he spent a character point or something. Rick's player is really hack n slash but RPs it up so the DM doesn't make him go evil. It makes alot more sense when you think of it this way- ass pulls when characters need it, never kill off the main group, filler sessions, I mean episodes, etc.

That...is actually a fething genius way of putting it.

Every time a main character cheats death by improbable odds...its just DM roll fudging.

I still feel it's decent slice of TV. I've seen better, but there's nothing else I really watch. Well, barring Still Game, which remains frankly brilliant.

Looking forward to tonight's episode, as always. Though busy nights viewing. Wrestlemania on the commute home, The Last Jedi then Walking Dead. Just ain't enough hours in the day!