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 Orlanth wrote:
Privateer Press does not allow models to be replaced at all, and no one complains. GW will allow you to convert an orc arrer boy into an orc shaman with some bitz, but PP will not allow you to convert a warjack into a special character of the same model warjack, you must have the correct bitz from the exact model for the model to be tourney legal, and it cant be used as a generic jack either, just the special character. If GW did this people would whine, but now they might have to.

Your specific points here are largely wrong regarding the PP conversion policy. For example, Extremoth is a non-character warjack converted into a Behemoth. You do not need the correct bits from 'the exact model', but the bits do have to be very similar. The specific examples given are that a warjack with a sword has to be a warjack with a sword. You could not take a Hammersmith and give it a sword because then it may be confusing whether it's a Hammersmith or an Ironclad or a Gallant or a Stormclad.

Many people have converted models like the Avatar of Menoth (which is stunty and too-small on the tabletop) to have plastic generic Menoth legs and a much bigger sword from a different character jack.

PP's policies basically amount to a more rigorous explanation/enforcement of WYSIWYG. And it's very important that it be glaringly obvious what a model is to anybody looking at it because PP games are very structured, and tournaments have timed turns. In many games, you have only 7-10 minutes to resolve your entire turn.

He's not wrong in the Letter of the rule for PP's conversion policy. An Extremoth is an illegal conversion by their rules as they are written. Just as I've said before, the rules are never enforced that strongly. They're written such that a TO can DQ any conversions that are too confusing, ie wrong model base, wrong weapons, ect, but then given TO's explicit permission to ignore the rules, and in practice so long as its appropriately apparent what a model is supposed to represent, all TOs in my experience do just that. I break all the rules except correct base size and my stuff gets allowed all over the place and have only ever had two people complain about them to my face.

Whilst I appreciate the organic flow of conversation that has led us to this tangent, can we not dissect this particular issue here overmuch please. Do feel free to start a new thread if needs be.

All good so far though

 AduroT wrote:
He's not wrong in the Letter of the rule for PP's conversion policy. An Extremoth is an illegal conversion by their rules as they are written. Just as I've said before, the rules are never enforced that strongly. They're written such that a TO can DQ any conversions that are too confusing, ie wrong model base, wrong weapons, ect, but then given TO's explicit permission to ignore the rules, and in practice so long as its appropriately apparent what a model is supposed to represent, all TOs in my experience do just that. I break all the rules except correct base size and my stuff gets allowed all over the place and have only ever had two people complain about them to my face.

The conversion policy is more like... guidelines than actual rules.


As you say, it's explicitly up to the TO of any event to allow/disallow any conversion. The end result is that this is EXACTLY the same as in 40k, the only difference is that PP expresses a set of nominal standards for how to keep things recognizable, while 40k has endless debates over what is "modelling for advantage".

But we've been told to stop it with the conversion policy differences earlier, so I think this is a line of reasoning that's going nowhere and should probably end (though I do hate it when people think that PP is anti-conversions - they have regular conversion competitions in No Quarter magazine and encourage conversions for league models fer 'evens sake).

 Alpharius wrote:
Weird that the 'Tru-Scales' had to go.

That makes me sad...

No doubt. I have a set, and they are very cool.

As of right now the Land Raider conversion kit is still there...and its about the only thing that would get me to buy a GW LR. Only reason I havent so far is I have no actual use for it beyond sitting there and looking cool.

So did we find 'true scale' stuff is infringing but add-on parts are not?

If GW succeeded in killing true-scale models, then that is a minor victory for them as those are models which are intended to be total replacements for GW models using GW's designs with scale alterations.

So if the court did find 'true-scale' to be infringing works, that is pretty noteworthy IMHO.

I'm also curious about the fact that several "whole models" were deemed infringing, but a larger number of the bits weren't.

Regarding conversions... to have any say on what can be used in events, GW would, you know, have to support/host/organize events which they no longer do in the US (where this is all most relevant).

 Kilkrazy wrote:

In my eyes, the Doomseer was a female humanoid in plate armour with robes and a tall helmet with horns on it. Every individual piece of it was different to all of the GW figures and so was the ensemble. It looked like a Farseer because all Farseer models are humanoids with plate armour, robes and a tall helmet with some kind of decorations on it.

Nah. It was an obvious Eldar seer, designed as such and marketed as such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:
I'm also curious about the fact that several "whole models" were deemed infringing, but a larger number of the bits weren't.

I think it follows the usual logic of aftermarket business.

I don't know about anyone else, but I seem to be getting the sensing that the rulings made by the jury were that "Add-on parts are okay", but "complete ripoffs, even generic ripoffs, are not okay". That's why things like shoulderpads, etc. were fine when things like trueseer and jetbikes weren't.

 Enigwolf wrote:
I don't know about anyone else, but I seem to be getting the sensing that the rulings made by the jury were that "Add-on parts are okay", but "complete ripoffs, even generic ripoffs, are not okay". That's why things like shoulderpads, etc. were fine when things like trueseer and jetbikes weren't.

Except the Jetbikes are still for sale, so while I think you're broadly right, there's got to be more complexity to it (or just jury based arbitrary nonsense)

 azreal13 wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I don't know about anyone else, but I seem to be getting the sensing that the rulings made by the jury were that "Add-on parts are okay", but "complete ripoffs, even generic ripoffs, are not okay". That's why things like shoulderpads, etc. were fine when things like trueseer and jetbikes weren't.

Except the Jetbikes are still for sale, so while I think you're broadly right, there's got to be more complexity to it (or just jury based arbitrary nonsense)

Likely the latter!

 azreal13 wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I don't know about anyone else, but I seem to be getting the sensing that the rulings made by the jury were that "Add-on parts are okay", but "complete ripoffs, even generic ripoffs, are not okay". That's why things like shoulderpads, etc. were fine when things like trueseer and jetbikes weren't.

Except the Jetbikes are still for sale, so while I think you're broadly right, there's got to be more complexity to it (or just jury based arbitrary nonsense)

Yeah, sorry, got a little confused. I was just trying to point out another theme of categorization that's coming across to me as having taken place, as opposed to looking at them from a specific-infringement view.

 azreal13 wrote:

Except the Jetbikes are still for sale, so while I think you're broadly right, there's got to be more complexity to it (or just jury based arbitrary nonsense)

In the case of the jetbikes, it was likely based on the totality of the model. While the rider is clearly a Marine, the bike looks nothing like the 30K jetbikes from FW, and probably not enough like Sammael to satisfy the jury.

The thing there is that the rider may be a Marine, but doesn't actually come with a torso/head. Arguably, it's an upgrade piece. The limbs are pretty obviously Marine limbs, but without shoulder pads, the arms are less distinctive, and while the legs are going to be obvious Marine legs no matter what you do to them, the jury likely just let that slide since it's a single bit, and not enough to prove infringement.

I think that the Doomseer model sets a bad precedent for GW to now go after Scribor, Heresy Miniatures, Ultraforge etc...

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I think that the Doomseer model sets a bad precedent for GW to now go after Scribor, Heresy Miniatures, Ultraforge etc...

Don't be so sure on that, as IIRC both of those are actually HQed outside the US, and there was recently a ruling by the SC about foreign nationals suing each other in US courts (rather than the appropriate national or international courts) so they'd have to drag it through the EU court for Scibor.

This docket entry was made by the Clerk on Thursday, June 20, 2013:

MINUTE entry before Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly:Status hearing held and continued to 7/15/2013 at 9:30 a.m. Joint Status Report regarding Injunctive Relief is to be filed by 6/26/2013. Draft judgment to be submitted by 6/26/13. Hearing regarding the judgment set for 6/27/2013 at 09:30 AM. (or, )

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I think that the Doomseer model sets a bad precedent for GW to now go after Scribor, Heresy Miniatures, Ultraforge etc...

I don't think so. Remember, one of the major things which started this for CH was they released the models EXPLICITLY saying it was a 40k Farseer in the 40k universe using explicit 40k terms in the product description including direct references to fluff and such. Also there were pages upon pages of a corporate spokesperson clearly telling people his models were representations of GW universe models (and there was nothing GW could do about it).

Which they eventually removed and attempted to replace with a 'generic' description and fluff. The issue is the cat was out of the bag at that point and the lawsuit was on, and the Internet never forgets.

Almost everyone else is selling "steam knights", "Spartan Space Warriors", "apocalyptic/ww2 orcs" and "disease corrupted demon" to be generic or unique models even though they can clearly easily be used as 'counts as' GW units or themes. Because they haven't said they were or attempted to pass them off as such, it makes it a lot harder to show intent. The doomseer may have been ruled to be perfectly legal if they hadn't explicitly said it was a GW universe farseer.

But who knows what was in the Jury's minds or what they decided. I feel like if you had presented the same model to another Jury without the evidence of the product description using GW terms and fluff in it, you would see a different outcome. It does seem as if companies making complete model replacement of GW-imagery may find themselves next on the list while shoulderpad/gun makers may find themselves breathing a little easier.

Then again, apparently 'powerfists' are infringing too? so who knows? We may see some sorts of add-ons also targeted.

I would love to see a total inventory of every product which was challenged and see a outcome of each one. If it was settled out of court, dropped or ruled upon and what the result was (and if a reason why was given, then the reason) It would make a good Dakka article and would probably be top on my list if I was a mini maker and worried about my skin. If anything, GW winning 'something' means they could file focused suits against very specific pieces and just start making small stabs into 3rd parties by trying to kill specific products one by one with successful results on those types of models to drive them. If you can't shut them down, then wound them hoping it is deathblow, or at least increase costs due to legal fees.

This is not at all over.

At some point, when everything's done, I'm certain some gamer-turned-lawyer/law student is going to write a law journal article on this case. I look forward to reading it.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I think that the Doomseer model sets a bad precedent for GW to now go after Scribor, Heresy Miniatures, Ultraforge etc...

Don't be so sure on that, as IIRC both of those are actually HQed outside the US, and there was recently a ruling by the SC about foreign nationals suing each other in US courts (rather than the appropriate national or international courts) so they'd have to drag it through the EU court for Scibor.

Doesn't matter where they are based though. From what I've seen on a personal level, alternative figures seem to be a more prominent feature on the USA scene than the Europe gaming scene. Now regardless of where these companies are based, if they want to market their products in the US then they have to abide by US legislation.

How does it help them if its legal to make them but illegal to sell them in their preferred market?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I think that the Doomseer model sets a bad precedent for GW to now go after Scribor, Heresy Miniatures, Ultraforge etc...

Don't be so sure on that, as IIRC both of those are actually HQed outside the US, and there was recently a ruling by the SC about foreign nationals suing each other in US courts (rather than the appropriate national or international courts) so they'd have to drag it through the EU court for Scibor.

Doesn't matter where they are based though. From what I've seen on a personal level, alternative figures seem to be a more prominent feature on the USA scene than the Europe gaming scene. Now regardless of where these companies are based, if they want to market their products in the US then they have to abide by US legislation.

How does it help them if its legal to make them but illegal to sell them in their preferred market?

Cheers

Andrew

They're not operating in the US, they're posting stuff to the US, world of difference. If they start opening up US distribution offices or similar, then your point would apply.

 azreal13 wrote:

They're not operating in the US, they're posting stuff to the US, world of difference. If they start opening up US distribution offices or similar, then your point would apply.

How do you figure that?

If a product is illegal in a country, then it is illegal in a country regardless of where it is made. And if they are selling product to an american market then they are operating in the US.

For example, and a poor one I admit, it's legal to purchase fake rolexes in China, but illegal to import them into the UK.

And from earlier comments (someone mentioned seeing them on racks) Scibor already has pre-packed figures imported to the US for retail sale.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

They're not operating in the US, they're posting stuff to the US, world of difference. If they start opening up US distribution offices or similar, then your point would apply.

How do you figure that?

If a product is illegal in a country, then it is illegal in a country regardless of where it is made. And if they are selling product to an american market then they are operating in the US.

For example, and a poor one I admit, it's legal to purchase fake rolexes in China, but illegal to import them into the UK.

And from earlier comments (someone mentioned seeing them on racks) Scibor already has pre-packed figures imported to the US for retail sale.

Cheers

Andrew

there is a difference however between legislating something to protect a local industry. You can pass a bill making it illegal to import a product. That said, what are you going to do with miniatures? I'm sorry, but we are dealing with parts for toys here. I can't see that anyone would really truly be fined for importing $10 worth of imitation toys where the original might be worth $20-30 at most. More to the point, what are you going to do if there is a discount retailer in germany, who sells scibor's stuff? The only way to make import illegal, is to legislate it that way, and frankly, while the possibility exists, in the TTWG "industry", it's simply not a reality for the united states. The money we are talking about here would make it more expensive to run the customs office, and more to the point, it's the importer that pays the fines, not the company, and it's just not realistic to fine consumers several hundred dollars for importing $10 worth of parts from poland, because GW threw a hissy fit. GW wouldn't even get any of that fine money....

nkelsch wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I think that the Doomseer model sets a bad precedent for GW to now go after Scribor, Heresy Miniatures, Ultraforge etc...

I don't think so. Remember, one of the major things which started this for CH was they released the models EXPLICITLY saying it was a 40k Farseer in the 40k universe using explicit 40k terms in the product description including direct references to fluff and such. Also there were pages upon pages of a corporate spokesperson clearly telling people his models were representations of GW universe models (and there was nothing GW could do about it).

Which they eventually removed and attempted to replace with a 'generic' description and fluff. The issue is the cat was out of the bag at that point and the lawsuit was on, and the Internet never forgets.

Almost everyone else is selling "steam knights", "Spartan Space Warriors", "apocalyptic/ww2 orcs" and "disease corrupted demon" to be generic or unique models even though they can clearly easily be used as 'counts as' GW units or themes. Because they haven't said they were or attempted to pass them off as such, it makes it a lot harder to show intent. The doomseer may have been ruled to be perfectly legal if they hadn't explicitly said it was a GW universe farseer.

But who knows what was in the Jury's minds or what they decided. I feel like if you had presented the same model to another Jury without the evidence of the product description using GW terms and fluff in it, you would see a different outcome. It does seem as if companies making complete model replacement of GW-imagery may find themselves next on the list while shoulderpad/gun makers may find themselves breathing a little easier.

Then again, apparently 'powerfists' are infringing too? so who knows? We may see some sorts of add-ons also targeted.

I would love to see a total inventory of every product which was challenged and see a outcome of each one. If it was settled out of court, dropped or ruled upon and what the result was (and if a reason why was given, then the reason) It would make a good Dakka article and would probably be top on my list if I was a mini maker and worried about my skin. If anything, GW winning 'something' means they could file focused suits against very specific pieces and just start making small stabs into 3rd parties by trying to kill specific products one by one with successful results on those types of models to drive them. If you can't shut them down, then wound them hoping it is deathblow, or at least increase costs due to legal fees.

This is not at all over.

Looks to me like the jury gave free rein to do exactly that, call things x to represent GW's y term. They seem to have directly knocked down "alternative" versions of already established GW models. This also seems to be the case early on when the judge basically ruled that if GW doesn't produce a model for something at all, and chapterhouse did that Chapterhouse could sue GW on grounds of trademark infringement, if/when GW does get around to producing the model. Hence why you now see GW putting out models for everything vs. Tyranid-like codexes where a handful of options were not represented in the GW model line.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
This also seems to be the case early on when the judge basically ruled that if GW doesn't produce a model for something at all, and chapterhouse did that Chapterhouse could sue GW on grounds of trademark infringement, if/when GW does get around to producing the model.

That never happened.

If memory serves, and it may not, the doom seer came out after the CD letter.

 AustonT wrote:
If memory serves, and it may not, the doom seer came out after the CD letter.

Which C&D letter? I don't think we've seen any filed anywhere.

czakk wrote:

 AustonT wrote:
If memory serves, and it may not, the doom seer came out after the CD letter.

Which C&D letter? I don't think we've seen any filed anywhere.

I'm not sure if it was ever posted, but it was a few years ago. You'd have to dig through the thread to find it- or it may even be in another . Note- pretty sure he's talking about the original C&D letter that started a lot of this.

czakk wrote:

 AustonT wrote:
If memory serves, and it may not, the doom seer came out after the CD letter.

Which C&D letter? I don't think we've seen any filed anywhere.

Wasn't there some random "STOP" letter that was sent to CHS but he didn't think it was a legitimate C&D and discarded it?

czakk wrote:

 AustonT wrote:
If memory serves, and it may not, the doom seer came out after the CD letter.

Which C&D letter? I don't think we've seen any filed anywhere.

How EXACTLY did you think this lawsuit started?

 AustonT wrote:

czakk wrote:

 AustonT wrote:
If memory serves, and it may not, the doom seer came out after the CD letter.

Which C&D letter? I don't think we've seen any filed anywhere.

How EXACTLY did you think this lawsuit started?

Uhm. I'm pretty sure that you don't need to file a C&D as a prerequisite to filing a lawsuit for copyright and trademark infringements.