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Corrin wrote:
I know it's not news of the court case directly, so I hope it's appropriate to this thread but with the Chapterhouse website still off line I was looking at their Facebook page - appears from their comments there that Games Workshop have applied to have their accounts frozen. Presumably this would explain why the web store is still down...

If that is the case it suggests they're probably not about to make friends and come out with a settlement?

Wow... feth GW. I hope they get what's coming to them.

Quote from their FB page:

Games workshop has filed to have our assets frozen for the time being. So that means if customers ordered we could not spend the funds to ship out products. That's why the site is down for now.

...

How is that legal? There's no court decision (apart from the 25k) that would support that, is there? Since the 25k is still in appeal (isn't it?) how is that even relevant?

What the actual feth?

rigeld2 wrote:
...

How is that legal? There's no court decision (apart from the 25k) that would support that, is there? Since the 25k is still in appeal (isn't it?) how is that even relevant?

What the actual feth?

IANAL and have no experience with the court systems, but I wager it's some stalling tactic to try and push them to settle. Can't run your business, which means you can't earn money which means you can't pay bills. Better settle so you can get back to earning money and not be homeless and starving to death on the streets.

US Justice system is big about that kind of unfair stuff to entice plea deals and settlements.

Of course it doesn't say that they had that GRANTED, just that they've filed. So it might be preemptive just in case, so they don't have orders that can't be fulfilled if it suddenly gets granted.

It's a shame this case doesn't have more publicity. I wonder if this was more in the public eye GW would be trying these shenanigans.

Freezing assets because they can......Man the feth up GW and do something to bring back your customers.

Corrin wrote:
I know it's not news of the court case directly, so I hope it's appropriate to this thread but with the Chapterhouse website still off line I was looking at their Facebook page - appears from their comments there that Games Workshop have applied to have their accounts frozen. Presumably this would explain why the web store is still down...

If that is the case it suggests they're probably not about to make friends and come out with a settlement?

Do you have a link? This would suggest something related to the $25K judgment. I would assume that Chapterhouse would be able to get a bond for the appeal.

Well, any way that you slice it, a party's right to appeal a judgment should not be barred by inability to pay said judgement prior to the appeal, but the plaintiff can demand that the money be put into escrow or something, which can cause some bureaucratic/financial difficulties. Assuming that this is what is going on, GW could be trying to make things as difficult for Chapterhouse Studios as humanly possible, and demanding escrow of the judgement is very cheap on GW's end, but potentially very frustrating for an effectively indigent defendant. It does, however, fly totally in the face of the reasoning by which GW asked the jury to award $25,000.00 in damages

we're not looking to be punitive, as we've said
all along. All we've ever wanted is for Chapterhouse to stop
selling its infringing products. We understand it's a small
company...we ask just a
simple nominal sum of $25,000, which quite clearly is well
below even his claimed 15 percent profit rate.

Stuff like this can happen on a much larger scale in patent litigation, when you have things like billion dollar judgements. It's shenanigans though, and if the appeal goes forward, I doubt games like these will shine a favorable light on GW, especially in the context of statements like the one above.

Edit: Here's the Facebook comment:

Games workshop has filed to have our assets frozen for the time being. So that means if customers ordered we could not spend the funds to ship out products. That's why the site is down for now.
October 6 at 1:19pm

Weeble,

The comment I referred to has been quoted above by Waynethegame, it's a comment in response to a question from a customer on their Facebook page.

Unfortunately from other comments it looks like this asset freeze is also preventing them from fulfilling some existing orders, which whilst seemingly not their fault is going to hurt their business should they manage to escape their current situation.

Though it's entirely supposition I'm assuming that this is too big a case now for GW to loose, given the recent emphasis on the value of their IP. If they can't be confident of the outcome of the current case then they may look for another approach - freeze their finances and I can't imagine Chapterhouse will last long... I feel for the people behind the company.

..Doh, ninja edit

Next in the line of dirty tricks GW is prepared to employ to crush opposition. They can't win clean in court, but they can pull other tricks to choke off CHS ability to run on a daily basis rather than allow the courts make the final decision on their fate.

I don't understand why this is allowed, as while litigation is still being sorted out to allow one side to hobble the opponent as part of a delaying tactic is injust. I can see the purpose, but common sense says it's being exploited here.

From their facebook page for those interested (dated October 6)

Chapterhouse Studios wrote:Games workshop has filed to have our assets frozen for the time being. So that means if customers ordered we could not spend the funds to ship out products. That's why the site is down for now.

Weeble,

Could CHS get around this by joining Patreon and letting people pay them 'to create?' In return, instead of access to special comics, etc., CHS could create and send conversion kits out to their Patrons.

http://www.patreon.com/faq

Eric

One can't help but think that this has gone beyond simple legal actions and become deeply personal.

Nasty, nasty GW, or whoever the horrible little man is that is orchestrating this kind of action.

weeble1000 wrote:


Stuff like this can happen on a much larger scale in patent litigation, when you have things like billion dollar judgements. It's shenanigans though, and if the appeal goes forward, I doubt games like these will shine a favorable light on GW, especially in the context of statements like the one above.

One big difference though. When a big company does it to a big company - it is the equivalent of flipping them the bird. Rude and uncouth - but largely ignored.

In this case, GW knows that a few weeks with frozen assets can be enough to cause CHS to have to go get a day job and possibly roll over on the case (depending on how well he has separated personal from company assets). It is the equivalent to a 300 pound line backer giving the band geek a wedgey till he screams uncle.

Hopefully they will get it in front of a judge rather quickly and that judge will have sense enough to release their assets.

This is very weird... What is the possible justification for the asset freeze? Are they going forward with the judgement and ignoring the appeal?
I thought the lawyers had already worked out details on the $25,000 thing.

T

timd wrote:
This is very weird... What is the possible justification for the asset freeze? Are they going forward with the judgement and ignoring the appeal?

GW can still execute the money judgment and do things like obtain an order to freeze assets until

1) they get paid, or

2) chapterhouse obtains a stay by posting a bond.


Prevents a debtor from blowing all of their money or absconding while an appeal is being run. Why a bond wasn't posted or GW wasn't paid is anyones guess.

Personally no clue where they filed the order. I assume they would do so in texas rather than in illinios?

Can bankruptcy action stop this until appeal is done or bond can be raised? That could allow them to continue as a business.

Not sure why the hold up though. Didn't CHS do a kickstarter to raise the funds for the judgement?

 darefsky wrote:
Not sure why the hold up though. Didn't CHS do a kickstarter to raise the funds for the judgement?

Chapterhouse did a Kickstarter to fund defensive wall products, and while the KS raised something like 30K, I don't think it was terribly profitable.

The good news is that Chapterhouse still has pro-bono representation, so just about regardless of what this does to Chapterhouse Studios, the appeal will likely go forward unless the parties settle out. Though I can't imagine how GW filing to freeze Chapterhouse's assets would be productive towards a settlement.

If GW does get in front of a judge over this deal, I also can't imagine how it would go well for the company, and this is the sort of thing that would probably give someone like Judge Posner the 'red ass', so to speak, if the appeal goes forward.

GW spent more than, what, six times the value of this judgement on printing documents just for the damn trial. It isn't about the money for GW, at all, in any way. This means that it is strategic. Which means that GW is effectively taking advantage of the indigence of the defendant to deny the defendant's right to an appeal. Shenanigans. And it will not be looked well upon.

Might actually be part of their tactic in the 7th...

...stall till Posner retires.

weeble1000 wrote:
And it will not be looked well upon.

I believe you and czakk have both posted sentiments like this in the thread going back as far as pre-trial discovery, yet as far as I know, nothing punitive has resulted from their behavior. Given that, why should we expect the situation to change now?

Keep spending money on the trial, GW. Let's see if you can beat a -42% drop in profits with lower sales and the continued IP fight. This is ludicrous. The amount of time and money invested in this lengthy ordeal, they could have simply produced the missing models that Chapterhouse leveraged, made them better, spent money advertising them, had clean rules for them, and probably have given all the staff a pizza party for a job well done.

Apple and Samsung, Games Workshop is not.

So when he says GW "froze his accounts" was he just referring to CHS's accounts or are his personal accounts frozen as well?

 TheKbob wrote:
had clean rules for them,

Corrin wrote:
Weeble,

The comment I referred to has been quoted above by Waynethegame, it's a comment in response to a question from a customer on their Facebook page.

Unfortunately from other comments it looks like this asset freeze is also preventing them from fulfilling some existing orders, which whilst seemingly not their fault is going to hurt their business should they manage to escape their current situation.

Though it's entirely supposition I'm assuming that this is too big a case now for GW to loose, given the recent emphasis on the value of their IP. If they can't be confident of the outcome of the current case then they may look for another approach - freeze their finances and I can't imagine Chapterhouse will last long... I feel for the people behind the company.

..Doh, ninja edit

One problem with this. Add-on/Aftermarket parts increase the value of their IP. People who don't want a normal thunderhawk, want it fancied up? They don't buy a normal thunderhawk. But then, CH makes their 'fancy up' kit- suddenly, those people have an incentive to buy a thunderhawk!

Same with the Tervigon conversion kit, even- when that was around, it ecouraged people to buy GW kits in order to field a unit in their army, even though GW hadn't released that kit yet. So sad that it's a less expensive unit than the 'official' tervigon, but that's what you get for not releasing your models before your books.

It's sort of funny to me, but the evidence in this thread is so damning that even the staunchest GW defenders can come to make claims against their actions in this case.

40k and WHFB might be interesting realms of imagination with nice models, but the company that sells them is abysmal. I had been thinking of getting back into finishing my Dark Eldar army, but reading the newest "technique" GW is applying makes me think the farthest I'll ever get is secondhand purchase of a 5th edition book, after which I will avoid any future purchases from this company (at least until its management is gutted...or they collapse, whichever's first).

 prplehippo wrote:
So when he says GW "froze his accounts" was he just referring to CHS's accounts or are his personal accounts frozen as well?

That would depend on how Nick's and CHS's accounts were set up. Although, if his personal finances weren't already well ring-fenced before all this started, I'll be flabbergasted if they haven't been thoroughly restructured by now.

I hope the pro-bono guys can sue GW on this, this looks unlawful and which judge agreed on getting CHS accounts freezed?

 
If CH didn't put up a bond and get an Order to stay execution of the Judgment, GW has every right to execute on their judgment even while the appeal is pending.  In my state the bond is twice the amount to the judgment.  But to execute on the judgment GW would have to transfer the judgment to Texas. Not sure about the asset freeze thing but GW could have the Sheriff seize CH property, including CH's bank accounts and its inventory at its store, as well as grab any money on hand.  If CH owned any real estate GW might be able to put a lien on it and foreclose. Depends on how creditor friendly Texas is. You can do it in most states but not all; you can't do it in Florida. 

Nick's private assets would not be at risk unless he was sued personally, with his company, and if the judgment was against him personally.  I haven't been following the case close enough to known those facts. 

If GW collects on its judgment part of the appeal would become moot.

 Breotan wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
And it will not be looked well upon.

I believe you and czakk have both posted sentiments like this in the thread going back as far as pre-trial discovery, yet as far as I know, nothing punitive has resulted from their behavior. Given that, why should we expect the situation to change now?

Well, in similar circumstances* I'd insist on a bond or some other form of security for my client and if that didn't happen I'd advise the client move to collect on the judgment including freezing the company's assets (to stop my clients money being spent to finance a fight against my client for example).

If you are a judgment creditor that's just how you roll. You won, you are entitled to your payment. No point in a dry judgment.


I don't think it will concern an appellate court. CHS has top flight counsel - they know how to post a bond or petition for a stay of judgment. If they complain about it, I'm sure GW will point out the fact that they had options to prevent it from happening. If there is no money to get a bond, all the more reason for the asset freeze.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:


Stuff like this can happen on a much larger scale in patent litigation, when you have things like billion dollar judgements. It's shenanigans though, and if the appeal goes forward, I doubt games like these will shine a favorable light on GW, especially in the context of statements like the one above.

One big difference though. When a big company does it to a big company - it is the equivalent of flipping them the bird. Rude and uncouth - but largely ignored.

In this case, GW knows that a few weeks with frozen assets can be enough to cause CHS to have to go get a day job and possibly roll over on the case (depending on how well he has separated personal from company assets). It is the equivalent to a 300 pound line backer giving the band geek a wedgey till he screams uncle.

Hopefully they will get it in front of a judge rather quickly and that judge will have sense enough to release their assets.

What about compensation for business lost?.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:


Stuff like this can happen on a much larger scale in patent litigation, when you have things like billion dollar judgements. It's shenanigans though, and if the appeal goes forward, I doubt games like these will shine a favorable light on GW, especially in the context of statements like the one above.

One big difference though. When a big company does it to a big company - it is the equivalent of flipping them the bird. Rude and uncouth - but largely ignored.

In this case, GW knows that a few weeks with frozen assets can be enough to cause CHS to have to go get a day job and possibly roll over on the case (depending on how well he has separated personal from company assets). It is the equivalent to a 300 pound line backer giving the band geek a wedgey till he screams uncle.

Hopefully they will get it in front of a judge rather quickly and that judge will have sense enough to release their assets.

What about compensation for business lost?.

Well, the issue is that there really isn't anything legally 'wrong' with GW filing to freeze Chapterhouse's assets, as far as I am aware.

Given the disparity between the parties and the completely inconsequential nature of the money to Games Workshop, it is pretty clear that the motive behind any move to freeze assets is less about preserving the plaintiff's ability to collect the judgment and more about causing the defendant financial hardship. Games Workshop told the jury that the $25,000.00 award is simply a nominal sum intended to send a message, rather than to be punitive, and that all Games Workshop wants is for Chapterhouse Studios to stop selling the infringing products.

Well the Court's injunction does exactly that: prevents Chapterhouse Studios from selling the infringing products. Freezing Chapterhouse's assets, on the other hand, prevents the company from conducting business outside of that injunction, i.e. it prevents Chapterhouse Studios from selling products that were either not accused in the lawsuit or that were found to be non-infringing. While this might be an 'unintended' consequence of Chapterhouse's inability to pay, bond, or escrow the $25,000.00 judgement, it expressly contravenes Games Workshop's stated intent.

We know that the magistrate judge described Game's Workshop's approach to this litigation as a zero sum game, in which Games Workshop wanted Chapterhouse Studios dead, gone, and out of business. Games Workshop took a contrary position at trial, stating that its goals were rather limited and reasonable in nature. Now Games Workshop is apparently trying to freeze the defendant's assets, which has an impact quite beyond this limited goal, and would appear to be treating the case, once again, as a zero sum game.

It isn't 'wrong', but it is a dick move with potentially dire consequences for a struggling company that has already been dragged through almost four years of costly litigation in which it prevailed on more than 70% of the asserted claims; claims that Games Workshop testified to being 'not the strongest', 'sounding crazy', and being based on ownership of properties that Games Workshop understood could not be owned by anyone. And in theory it could, for all practical purposes, prevent the defendant from appealing the judgement; a judgement that one of the top IP litigation firms in the world agreed to appeal pro-bono.

It is what it is. We can all cross our fingers and hope that this does not adversely impact Chapterhouse's ability to appeal. But I think it is a pretty good indication that the parties are not in productive settlement discussions.

weeble1000 wrote:
But I think it is a pretty good indication that the parties are not in productive settlement discussions.

Which begs the question, what's taking so long? I certainly hope that at some point a judge somewhere would step in and say enough is enough, let's get this done. No wonder so many people disparage our judicial system.