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 warboss wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
The price is kept down at that nice attractive level partially because of the 'starter rule book'.

And you can always DL the full rules later - ha!

Perhaps you've heard of Warhammer 40,000? They keep starter costs down in part by including a full set of the rules in a smaller B&W format that saves on paper and printing costs. I fear that the apocalypse is nigh upon us if I'm using GW as an example of keeping prices down.

Not to pick on the boss here, but people keep saying "full set of the rules" without considering that in a very real way, no one includes full rules in their starter.

By that I mean that the Warhammer starter rules contains everything you need to run the games... except: unit costs, army special rules, exotic unit type rules (I'm going off previous editions here, since I have not picked up the most recent ones).

Similarly, the two-player starter sets for Warmachine and Hordes have a complete and miniaturized rule book... which doesn't contain unit costs, army specific special rules* or exotic unit special rules.

It's worth pointing out that for those rule systems, you must buy a second product to get the missing elements. Sometimes many other products. I'm not saying that one company's approach is better then another, merely trying to emphasize that what CB is doing is far from aberrational.

Yes, and for this one, you may have to buy 3 products if you later decide to go with sectorials or Tohaa... but that is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison of the point I was making. What I'm talking about is choosing to restrict the functionality of the "intro" rulebook compared with the full version which is definitely not the case in 40k. YMMV but I prefer the full version in the intro and not a pared down select portion of it. I already think it is a bad idea to not have the sectorial specific rules like link teams in the full core rulebook and taking out even more for an intro version exacerbates that.

While Pacific made some good points on the previous page, I simply disagree with them. For me, I prefer to have the full rules from the get go and not be forced to buy another book that repeats everything in the one I already own and adds maybe 10% (?) more if I want a paper copy. Yes, yes, download free and print at kinko's for less et al.. but that isn't what I'm talking about. Obviously this decision will vary from player to player but I can't recall any of my friends ever lamenting that they got a full version of the rules in a starter instead of a purposefully trimmed down version that lacked key advanced rules. Again, YMMV.

 warboss wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
The price is kept down at that nice attractive level partially because of the 'starter rule book'.

And you can always DL the full rules later - ha!

Perhaps you've heard of Warhammer 40,000? They keep starter costs down in part by including a full set of the rules in a smaller B&W format that saves on paper and printing costs. I fear that the apocalypse is nigh upon us if I'm using GW as an example of keeping prices down.

Do you really think that CB is printing the same amount of starters that GW does?

Also - metal vs. plastic?

I guess I see what you're driving at, but your truck is mostly full of oranges, not apples.

 warboss wrote:
Yes, and for this one, you may have to buy 3 products if you later decide to go with sectorials or Tohaa... but that is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison of the point I was making. What I'm talking about is choosing to restrict the functionality of the "intro" rulebook compared with the full version which is definitely not the case in 40k. YMMV but I prefer the full version in the intro and not a pared down select portion of it.

While Pacific made some good points on the previous page, I simply disagree with them. For me, I prefer to have the full rules from the get go and not be forced to buy another book that repeats everything in the one I already own and adds maybe 10% (?) more if I want a paper copy. Yes, yes, download free and print at kinko's for less et al.. but that isn't what I'm talking about. Obviously this decision will vary from player to player but I can't recall any of my friends ever lamenting that they got a full version of the rules in a starter instead of a purposefully trimmed down version that lacked key advanced rules. Again, YMMV.

The problem is that you're just wrong.

Not a joke, "you may have to buy 3 products..." is simply incorrect. You never have to buy anything to get rules for Infinity, they are all made available on-line.

Comparing the intro rulebooks that come with these three miniature skirmish games and they are remarkably similar, in that in each case some rules are omitted and some further resource is required to play. It's just that the way CB is doing it, the further resource is free.

 Alpharius wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
The price is kept down at that nice attractive level partially because of the 'starter rule book'.

And you can always DL the full rules later - ha!

Perhaps you've heard of Warhammer 40,000? They keep starter costs down in part by including a full set of the rules in a smaller B&W format that saves on paper and printing costs. I fear that the apocalypse is nigh upon us if I'm using GW as an example of keeping prices down.

Do you really think that CB is printing the same amount of starters that GW does?

Also - metal vs. plastic?

I guess I see what you're driving at, but your truck is mostly full of oranges, not apples.

You clearly missed the portion of my post that said "in part". I didn't address the metal vs plastic for the same reason that I didn't address the 60 miniatures vs 12 counts in the sets... because it isn't my point as I'm specifically comparing rulebooks to rulebooks. I'm simply responding to YOUR point that the cost would go up with a full rulebook which I don't think is necessarily the case when combined with other choices like smaller format and/or B&W printing (which we don't know yet if they're using for this). In the end, the fact that it is a purposefully gimped rulebook pretty much rules out the starter set for me (pun intended).


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 Buzzsaw wrote:


The problem is that you're just wrong.

Not a joke, "you may have to buy 3 products..." is simply incorrect. You never have to buy anything to get rules for Infinity, they are all made available on-line.

Comparing the intro rulebooks that come with these three miniature skirmish games and they are remarkably similar, in that in each case some rules are omitted and some further resource is required to play. It's just that the way CB is doing it, the further resource is free.

Geez... Seriously, people, stop choosing PORTIONS of my post and then running with it while ignoring the rest. The helping verb "may" is NOT a synonym for "require". It is simply correct. If you want to run those factions and you got the starter, you need 3 products if you want paper copies. Period. You can keep taking parts off of my example and running with it but that doesn't make it incorrect. I understand you want to defend your favorite game but please respond to the whole post and not just a select portion of individual single sentences. Yes, I get it that the rules are online but I've also stated that I prefer hard copies as well. The fact that it is "online" doesn't matter to me much if the hard copy I have is purposefully gimped. If the online version mattered so much to me then I wouldn't bother with the starter set in the first place because I don't plan on playing pano and my taste in nomads (if I started them ) would be corregidor gecko heavy and would just download the free rules instead of spending a penny.

Surely the new starter set is not "gimped" for new players who find the detail of the hardback overwhelming, I dont think the aim of this starter is to provide existing players with a way to get a cheap bundle of stuff like GW players often view new starters. This way they keep the starter box price down and new players have the option to get digital rules free and pick up the fluff online etc OR to purchase the hardback if they dont want to self print or use a tablet.

As a new player to infinity the most useful thing to getting started was the printed quick start booklet I got from a FLGS as it gives myself and my opponent some way to get started and then continue from there.

The price is not bad for what CB usually offers (i.e.: quality). But it's not a bargain. I know they don't want to use plastic and outsource the production, but I really believe that this is ideal kind of product for it. Not necessarily to China, Renedra might be able to do it right. And for a 14 miniatures sprue, the cost would have been low enough (I wildly guess, of course). Or 2 sprues of 7. Say 50€ for the box. I don't think that's crazy.

I'm pretty sure I'll bite and buy it, but I feel if could have been better.

And we are saying all this without actually seeing the stuff.

Warboss - you seemed determined to find fault with the starter set. It looks like you've succeeded. Your complaints seem petty since As previously noted, you can still DL the full rules down the road.

Yyyeaaah, I don't think overwhelming a new player with all the rules would be a good idea. Infinity has a very steep learning curve.


And if having physical books is that important to you... then buy the physical books and not the starter, then buy the minis you want. That doesn't seem too complicated.

 Alpharius wrote:
Warboss - you seemed determined to find fault with the starter set. It looks like you've succeeded. Your complaints seem petty since As previously noted, you can still DL the full rules down the road.

Hrm... $50 for a full ungimped rulebook if I want a paper copy is petty? In that case, can you paypal me some petty cash to get one? Since it is so petty, I'm sure you won't mind the amount. I've found fault because there is fault from my perspective.


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 TwilightSparkles wrote:
Surely the new starter set is not "gimped" for new players who find the detail of the hardback overwhelming, I dont think the aim of this starter is to provide existing players with a way to get a cheap bundle of stuff like GW players often view new starters. This way they keep the starter box price down and new players have the option to get digital rules free and pick up the fluff online etc OR to purchase the hardback if they dont want to self print or use a tablet.

As a new player to infinity the most useful thing to getting started was the printed quick start booklet I got from a FLGS as it gives myself and my opponent some way to get started and then continue from there.

And I've acknowledged that viewpoint as valid even though it isn't my own situation which is why I phrase my points from my own POV. It just seems like certain folks are intent on squashing any view that doesn't jibe with perfection and anyone who doesn't think that the gimped rulebook is a good idea is just plain wrong. In the end, it is a matter of opinion and not a fact like some would have you believe.

Wait, so this new rulebook N3 WONT have all the rules in to play? Will they still be spread across 3 (now 4) really expensive books? Please say this aint so. I thought CB were trying to move away from all this complicated gak. If true how hard can it be to put the rules in ONE book. If the new book does contain all the rules then disregard my rant

If you're that dedicated to the hard cover version, you'll probably also want to make it one of the convention appearances so you can get your book signed.

Otherwise, the only cost for a printed rulebook is how much work you go through to print it out.

Well, in my opinion complaining about a simpler rulebook while the rules are free is petty. And this is not me thinking that CB is doing nothing wrong, this is me saying that you're making what should be a non-issue an issue.

If having a paper copy is that important to you and you don't want to shell lots of money... then print out the free version. Seriously.

overtyrant wrote:
Wait, so this new rulebook N3 WONT have all the rules in to play? Will they still be spread across 3 (now 4) really expensive books? Please say this aint so. I thought CB were trying to move away from all this complicated gak. If true how hard can it be to put the rules in ONE book. If the new book does contain all the rules then disregard my rant

They said that the new rulebook (which I don't when will be coming out, but I guess it will follow closely the box) only substitutes the 2nd Ed rulebook.

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 heartserenade wrote:
Well, in my opinion complaining about a simpler rulebook while the rules are free is petty. And this is not me thinking that CB is doing nothing wrong, this is me saying that you're making what should be a non-issue an issue.

If having a paper copy is that important to you and you don't want to shell lots of money... then print out the free version. Seriously.

And ill mention it AGAIN having a print out is not the same as having a rule book, having one rule book is also not the same as having 4! I swear in this thread if you dare to sway or have ideas outside from the CB path/mantra then you are a judas who do not des9to bask in the CB light!


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 Erasoketa wrote:

overtyrant wrote:
Wait, so this new rulebook N3 WONT have all the rules in to play? Will they still be spread across 3 (now 4) really expensive books? Please say this aint so. I thought CB were trying to move away from all this complicated gak. If true how hard can it be to put the rules in ONE book. If the new book does contain all the rules then disregard my rant

They said that the new rulebook (which I don't when will be coming out, but I guess it will follow closely the box) only substitutes the 2nd Ed rulebook.

so if I don't want a print out (pure tack) how many books will I need?

overtyrant wrote:
Wait, so this new rulebook N3 WONT have all the rules in to play? Will they still be spread across 3 (now 4) really expensive books? Please say this aint so. I thought CB were trying to move away from all this complicated gak. If true how hard can it be to put the rules in ONE book. If the new book does contain all the rules then disregard my rant

I'm beginning to think you and warboss have some kind of high-five 'lets see how long we can keep this going for' PM thing going on between you

In bold, italic, underlined: You don't have to buy any of the rules. They are downloadable for free from the website, and will be for the foreseeable future. All of the rules that you need to play the game can be found in the downloads.

- This starter set is just that; a method by which to start the game.
- If you enjoy the game and miniatures, then by all means purchase the rulebook. It has lots of cool artwork and background, a lot of which isn't found elsewhere. But, purchase of the book is by no means mandatory!

Not really - look at how a lot of people (!) are not a big fan of them closing down their Official Forums!

So, feel free, obviously, to have whatever opinion you like, clearly.

No, the purpose of the new N3 book is to sidle up to your 2nd edition book on your shelf, quietly shove it off when you aren't looking, and slot itself into the empty space between Human Sphere and Paradiso.

I totally get where Warboss is coming from and I think a lot of new players are going to be expecting the same thing - after all, all the 2 player starters I mentioned earlier include the full set of rules in the box. But aside from the fact that N3 isn't even out yet (and how that might fit in with their overall release strategy) I do think that you can't overstate the significance of having all the rules available for free online*. DZC, Warmachine, Hordes, Bolt Action, Flames of War.. the rules just aren't available for free. The best comparison would be, say, Malifaux, but I shudder to think what kind of a disaster would befall Wyrd in trying to create a two player starter.

So the question is, what would be more beneficial to a new player assuming the cost of the box were to say the same? A compact but complete rule book but lets say, no scenery? Or all the components you need to have a good, fun game with the limited rules you get in the box?

* ..the launch of N3 is also a great opportunity to unify (and merge!) the PDFs into one coherent document. Lets hope they make the most of that opportunity!

 Pacific wrote:

overtyrant wrote:
Wait, so this new rulebook N3 WONT have all the rules in to play? Will they still be spread across 3 (now 4) really expensive books? Please say this aint so. I thought CB were trying to move away from all this complicated gak. If true how hard can it be to put the rules in ONE book. If the new book does contain all the rules then disregard my rant

I'm beginning to think you and warboss have some kind of high-five 'lets see how long we can keep this going for' PM thing going on between you

In bold, italic, underlined: You don't have to buy any of the rules. They are downloadable for free from the website, and will be for the foreseeable future. All of the rules that you need to play the game can be found in the downloads.

- This starter set is just that; a method by which to start the game.
- If you enjoy the game and miniatures, then by all means purchase the rulebook. It has lots of cool artwork and background, a lot of which isn't found elsewhere. But, purchase of the book is by no means mandatory!

And now I feel your being ignorant. I have mentioned several times now that yes I realise the rules are avalible online and I have been told multiple times now that the rules are available online (YES I KNOW THE RULES ARE ONLINE STOP REPEATING THAT) as I have also mentioned that having them printed out is not like having a rulebook. Whats so wrong with having ONE book with just the rules in? (AND YES I KNOW THERE ONLINE TO PRINT OFF STOP REPEATING IT), it's really feeling like a GW thread in here where you don't agree with them your plain wrong or stupid, maybe both.

 Siygess wrote:

* ..the launch of N3 is also a great opportunity to unify (and merge!) the PDFs into one coherent document. Lets hope they make the most of that opportunity!

I'd welcome that, but I don't think that's going to happen.

So at best, I hope the crew behind the 'unofficial re-edit' rules get the band back together and hook us up!

 Alpharius wrote:

 Siygess wrote:

* ..the launch of N3 is also a great opportunity to unify (and merge!) the PDFs into one coherent document. Lets hope they make the most of that opportunity!

I'd welcome that, but I don't think that's going to happen.

So at best, I hope the crew behind the 'unofficial re-edit' rules get the band back together and hook us up!

What can I say, I'm an optimist! I trust that CB have a plan. It might be a crazy, European, off-the-wall plan but I trust the overall intent is to make Infinity the best game it can be. Sorting out their free rules PDFs should be part of that

By some of the logic here and elsewhere some people would clearly be apparently happier if CB included no quick start rules for free in the box, or even a starter at all.....

Oh well I'll happily be picking up the whole gencon bundle on preorder and the hardback later this year with the inevitable preorder mini...

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
By some of the logic here and elsewhere some people would clearly be apparently happier if CB included no quick start rules for free in the box, or even a starter at all.....

Oh well I'll happily be picking up the whole gencon bundle on preorder and the hardback later this year with the inevitable preorder mini...

Now you've gone beyond just drinking the kool aid and full on into absurdity. No one is saying or even remotely hinting at that but you. The point I was making is that "some people" would be happier if they included THE rules instead of only a select portion of them in the starter.

overtyrant wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

overtyrant wrote:
Wait, so this new rulebook N3 WONT have all the rules in to play? Will they still be spread across 3 (now 4) really expensive books? Please say this aint so. I thought CB were trying to move away from all this complicated gak. If true how hard can it be to put the rules in ONE book. If the new book does contain all the rules then disregard my rant

I'm beginning to think you and warboss have some kind of high-five 'lets see how long we can keep this going for' PM thing going on between you

In bold, italic, underlined: You don't have to buy any of the rules. They are downloadable for free from the website, and will be for the foreseeable future. All of the rules that you need to play the game can be found in the downloads.

- This starter set is just that; a method by which to start the game.
- If you enjoy the game and miniatures, then by all means purchase the rulebook. It has lots of cool artwork and background, a lot of which isn't found elsewhere. But, purchase of the book is by no means mandatory!

And now I feel your being ignorant. I have mentioned several times now that yes I realise the rules are avalible online and I have been told multiple times now that the rules are available online (YES I KNOW THE RULES ARE ONLINE STOP REPEATING THAT) as I have also mentioned that having them printed out is not like having a rulebook. Whats so wrong with having ONE book with just the rules in? (AND YES I KNOW THERE ONLINE TO PRINT OFF STOP REPEATING IT), it's really feeling like a GW thread in here where you don't agree with them your plain wrong or stupid, maybe both.

OK.. sorry man if I upset you enough to hit the capslock key there! Please, calm down..

I don't think anyone is 100% on what content the new rulebook will contain. Most likely, if it copies exactly what is in 2nd edition but with the amendments to some core mechanics, if you only wanted to have one rulebook you would only need to pick up that rulebook, and that would cover you for playing the game. Human Sphere doesn't really add that much other than link teams, civilians, and that's literally just a few page PDF on the website. Paradiso is there if you want the campaign rules, but again it's not something you need (as a necessity) to play the game. The weapon stats those books add are there automatically if you use the army builder.

 Siygess wrote:
I totally get where Warboss is coming from and I think a lot of new players are going to be expecting the same thing - after all, all the 2 player starters I mentioned earlier include the full set of rules in the box. But aside from the fact that N3 isn't even out yet (and how that might fit in with their overall release strategy) I do think that you can't overstate the significance of having all the rules available for free online*. DZC, Warmachine, Hordes, Bolt Action, Flames of War.. the rules just aren't available for free. The best comparison would be, say, Malifaux, but I shudder to think what kind of a disaster would befall Wyrd in trying to create a two player starter.

So the question is, what would be more beneficial to a new player assuming the cost of the box were to say the same? A compact but complete rule book but lets say, no scenery? Or all the components you need to have a good, fun game with the limited rules you get in the box?

* ..the launch of N3 is also a great opportunity to unify (and merge!) the PDFs into one coherent document. Lets hope they make the most of that opportunity!

Personally, I think it would be more beneficial to have less or no scenery beyond some cardboard cutouts than to have limited rules. New players to the game will have scenery from other games around or access to FREE ONLINE papercraft scenery (hey, everyone seems to be stressing the whole free and online thing and therefore I will too) to DOWNLOAD for FREE ONLINE and PRINT OUT just like the rules. In the end, there is no clear cut answer like some folks here would have you believe but rather simple opinions.

When I think back at the starters I've bought over the decades, I can't think of a single one where that came with anything but the full core rules available at that time and I can't think of anyone who played with me that would have preferred versions with rules cut out in their starter. None of those starters had pared down trimmed for your ease versions. 40k 3rd, 40k 5th, Heavy Gear, the upcoming Robotech supposedly, VOR, Warzone, Star Wars minis, D&D minis, etc. They may have had expansions that added to them but not a single one asked you to buy a book that had 90% of what you already owned to get the extra 10% they added in the non-starter version. Yes, again, those games didn't have free legal online rules but AGAIN I'm referring to the physical copies. That is the standard that I'm used to and I suspect alot of gamers will be surprised when they find out that they don't have the full rules in the starter.

At this point we probably need to get back On Topic here, and take the debate on starter rules, full rules, etc. down to the Infinity Sub-Forum.

Thanks!

 warboss wrote:

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
By some of the logic here and elsewhere some people would clearly be apparently happier if CB included no quick start rules for free in the box, or even a starter at all.....

Oh well I'll happily be picking up the whole gencon bundle on preorder and the hardback later this year with the inevitable preorder mini...

Now you've gone beyond just drinking the kool aid and full on into absurdity. No one is saying or even remotely hinting at that but you. The point I was making is that "some people" would be happier if they included THE rules instead of only a select portion of them in the starter.

And some people (such as myself) have pointed out that neither GW nor PP do what you are asking.

It's perfectly fine to desire CB to be substantially better in this regard then their competitors, but it is simply incorrect to imagine that they are alone in requiring materials in addition to the starter rules to play the larger game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
At this point we probably need to get back On Topic here, and take the debate on starter rules, full rules, etc. down to the Infinity Sub-Forum.

Thanks!

My apologies; I'll leave my last post up but let the matter lapse.

I actually have all 3 of the current rulebooks, but most people I play against have none and just use the wiki and the (actually much better organized) fan documents. I'll be reading through them all on vacation here shortly and will let you know which I prefer, but I can tell you the rules are squirreled away in the big books, not super easy to find / reference.

Hoping the new book will have everything needed (for the most part) all in one place, although people have already said some special rules that were added in the later books won't be in there (like link teams?).

Regardless, I like having the books, too... which is why I have them

Edit while typing: I see this is mostly covered in the quoted text from Pacific above, but yeah, afaik that's the available info we have at the moment!

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