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 Smitty wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:

Smitty wrote:I would use them against infantry based armies with really nasty units. If you have a mean enemy squad flanking you, then have them do SITNW, come back on, and issue "First Rank Fire, Second Rank fire. Since you'll need to rapid fire (you moved), you'll get 150 shots. That enemy squad is effectively .

Assuming you get the order off. To do so reliably you'd either need Kell, or a Lord Commissar.

Then with BS2...well, 50 shots hit, against Marines 17 wound, and after armor saves, you've killed 5-6 Marines.

Not exactly a crushing victory.

If anything, use them as a shield for your powerblobs. That's the only decent use I can think of for them.

Conveniently, I use Creed and Kell.

Plus, who said anything about Spehss Mahreens? Going against Dark Eldar would make for a very bad day for the DE.

Creed and Kell and conscripts? I wish my meta was that relaxed and non-competitive.

Firstly, this should be in tactics, not general discussion.

Secondly, I've been using conscripts recently, and I consider them to be the future of foot guard. Foot guard is so fragile now, that against an opponent who knows what they're doing, they're going to be able to actually kill off those 130 models that you brought. Before, it was almost impossible to get tabled with that much stuff, now it's shockingly possible.

Meanwhile, foot guard suffered heavily because of 6th ed rules. Wound allocation taking the models from the front and the loss of by-unit cover got rid of what you were able to do to make up for the force concentration problems, and changes to cover rule and the inability to properly hide commissars throws out their ability to stay on the board. Amongst many, many other problems.

So, if guard infantry are getting wiped out without really getting to do much, then you can't rely on infantry squads to give you your offensive punch anymore, especially compared to 5th ed. If this is true, then you've got to use your troops choices as nothing more than something that takes and holds objectives.

You know who takes and holds objectives, no matter how much they get shot at, or no matter how many close combats they lose? Respawning conscripts.

I'll give you this game. Every turn, my opponent kills off 5-10 conscripts. They immediately break and run off the board. 30 seconds later, I send in the next wave, and there the guys are, exactly right back on the objective, as if my opponent hadn't done anything. It got to the point after my third wave came in that I was tempted to stop actually removing the models off the board, as they'd be right back. Might as well have taken the 8 models off the board, and then put them back in their same places at the beginning of my movement phase.

Infantry units in foot guard are largely relegated to holding objective. Send in the next wave conscripts hold objectives on your side of the board better than anything else in the codex.

Conscripts - wave of the future. Today!

Conscripts have found their way into my guard army with extreme reliability

Keep them on the back field, and indefinitely hold back field objectives. They work well with going 2nd in the game. With such a low LD any time they take casualties they will reliably flee off the table. In which case at the start of your turn, they walk right back on a full strength to unload a storm of las fire into what ever just scared them. Don't expect them to do much more than guarantee your footing in the back field. But they can be used to deny safe back field deep strikes. and 50 las shots can be surprising! take down some monsters! (6's to wounds not bad when you get 50 to 100 shots)

The key is no characters in the unit (since they'd be wasted) and making sure you can get an objective close to a deployment board edge. The combined fire-power is rather mind blowing, and the look on your opponents face when they realize that no matter how much fire power they bring, they're just going to walk back on the board... Conscripts... the Herpes of 40k... once you got em, there's no getting rid of em.

 Ailaros wrote:
Firstly, this should be in tactics, not general discussion.

Secondly, I've been using conscripts recently, and I consider them to be the future of foot guard. Foot guard is so fragile now, that against an opponent who knows what they're doing, they're going to be able to actually kill off those 130 models that you brought. Before, it was almost impossible to get tabled with that much stuff, now it's shockingly possible.

Meanwhile, foot guard suffered heavily because of 6th ed rules. Wound allocation taking the models from the front and the loss of by-unit cover got rid of what you were able to do to make up for the force concentration problems, and changes to cover rule and the inability to properly hide commissars throws out their ability to stay on the board. Amongst many, many other problems.

So, if guard infantry are getting wiped out without really getting to do much, then you can't rely on infantry squads to give you your offensive punch anymore, especially compared to 5th ed. If this is true, then you've got to use your troops choices as nothing more than something that takes and holds objectives.

You know who takes and holds objectives, no matter how much they get shot at, or no matter how many close combats they lose? Respawning conscripts.

I'll give you this game. Every turn, my opponent kills off 5-10 conscripts. They immediately break and run off the board. 30 seconds later, I send in the next wave, and there the guys are, exactly right back on the objective, as if my opponent hadn't done anything. It got to the point after my third wave came in that I was tempted to stop actually removing the models off the board, as they'd be right back. Might as well have taken the 8 models off the board, and then put them back in their same places at the beginning of my movement phase.

Infantry units in foot guard are largely relegated to holding objective. Send in the next wave conscripts hold objectives on your side of the board better than anything else in the codex.

Conscripts - wave of the future. Today!

I wouldn't go as far to say that they are the future, but using a wall of infantry and charging them forward works pretty well. My idea is to run a unit of 25 conscripts in front of my two units of 30 guardsmen, then charge the entire thing forward, Not many armies can deal with that much firepower quickly!

Yeah, and then on turn 1, your 25 conscrtipts will be wiped out, or break and run, and on turn 2, your 30 guardsmen blob will be all but wiped out, and on turns 3 and 4, your opponent will finish off whatever few guardsmen are arrogant enough to survive. Foot guard can't just charge up the field anymore. This is doubly true against people who are packing lots of anti-flier stuff as the weapons that are good against dakkajets also tend to be rather good against hordes of guarsmen.

If you're not charging up on the field, then you're hiding in cover on an objective, then why not respawningly hide in cover on an objective?

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, and then on turn 1, your 25 conscrtipts will be wiped out, or break and run, and on turn 2, your 30 guardsmen blob will be all but wiped out, and on turns 3 and 4, your opponent will finish off whatever few guardsmen are arrogant enough to survive. Foot guard can't just charge up the field anymore. This is doubly true against people who are packing lots of anti-flier stuff as the weapons that are good against dakkajets also tend to be rather good against hordes of guarsmen.

If you're not charging up on the field, then you're hiding in cover on an objective, then why not respawningly hide in cover on an objective?

Yeah, from experiance, and lots of it, that never happens. I don't upgrade much, so I have large numbers of troops and support, and most armies cannot deal with them quickly.

 Omegus wrote:
Creed and Kell and conscripts? I wish my meta was that relaxed and non-competitive.

That post was made a while back. I have modified my army, and I don't have Kell anymore. I also never had conscripts. That said, I do have a Lord Commissar that I use with power blobs of infantry. I might make a conscript squad at some point, and maybe add on another platoon.

General_Marshall wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, and then on turn 1, your 25 conscrtipts will be wiped out, or break and run, and on turn 2, your 30 guardsmen blob will be all but wiped out, and on turns 3 and 4, your opponent will finish off whatever few guardsmen are arrogant enough to survive. Foot guard can't just charge up the field anymore. This is doubly true against people who are packing lots of anti-flier stuff as the weapons that are good against dakkajets also tend to be rather good against hordes of guarsmen.

If you're not charging up on the field, then you're hiding in cover on an objective, then why not respawningly hide in cover on an objective?

Yeah, from experiance, and lots of it, that never happens. I don't upgrade much, so I have large numbers of troops and support, and most armies cannot deal with them quickly.

Yeah... marshall imma have to agree with Ailaros over you, if you charge guardsmen up the field without cover they're just gonna get chewed by anyone who knows what they're doing

 Somedude593 wrote:

General_Marshall wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, and then on turn 1, your 25 conscrtipts will be wiped out, or break and run, and on turn 2, your 30 guardsmen blob will be all but wiped out, and on turns 3 and 4, your opponent will finish off whatever few guardsmen are arrogant enough to survive. Foot guard can't just charge up the field anymore. This is doubly true against people who are packing lots of anti-flier stuff as the weapons that are good against dakkajets also tend to be rather good against hordes of guarsmen.

If you're not charging up on the field, then you're hiding in cover on an objective, then why not respawningly hide in cover on an objective?

Yeah, from experiance, and lots of it, that never happens. I don't upgrade much, so I have large numbers of troops and support, and most armies cannot deal with them quickly.

Yeah... marshall imma have to agree with Ailaros over you, if you charge guardsmen up the field without cover they're just gonna get chewed by anyone who knows what they're doing

By charge I mean advancing, it works very well for any army but orks and nids. I try not to get into close combat distance, but moving a few blobs up and blasting apart squads with over 100 shots seems to work pretty well for me.

Yeah, if you can move up the field like that, then I wish I had your opponents.

Mine are capable of killing 100 models in 4 turns, and that's WITH me hiding behind cover. Back in 5th ed with better, non-focus-fireable, by-unit cover, you could get in and kill stuff before your opponents were able to do more damage. In 6th ed, not so. Unless, of course, you're either getting VERY lucky with cover saves, or you've got opponents who don't know how to use small arms, or aren't bringing any anti-horde weapons (or both).

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, if you can move up the field like that, then I wish I had your opponents.

Mine are capable of killing 100 models in 4 turns, and that's WITH me hiding behind cover. Back in 5th ed with better, non-focus-fireable, by-unit cover, you could get in and kill stuff before your opponents were able to do more damage. In 6th ed, not so. Unless, of course, you're either getting VERY lucky with cover saves, or you've got opponents who don't know how to use small arms, or aren't bringing any anti-horde weapons (or both).

Yeah, if you are saying my opponents are inferior, you being slightly prejudice , no?

General_Marshall wrote:
Yeah, if you are saying my opponents are inferior, you being slightly prejudice , no?

It's true though. 6th edition killed the 5th edition concept of foot IG. Shooting is deadlier thanks to cover being significantly reduced in effectiveness, and now that tanks "suck" you can't count on facing a list with nothing but melta guns and no anti-horde weapons. And now that casualties come off the front you have a pretty bad choice: either blob everything together and die horribly to blast weapons, or spread out to maximum 2" coherency and find that non-blast weapons are pushing the front of your unit back faster than you can advance it up the field.

If your opponents are failing to do these things they really aren't taking advantage of 6th edition, and that's a sign of inferiority.

 Peregrine wrote:

General_Marshall wrote:
Yeah, if you are saying my opponents are inferior, you being slightly prejudice , no?

It's true though. 6th edition killed the 5th edition concept of foot IG. Shooting is deadlier thanks to cover being significantly reduced in effectiveness, and now that tanks "suck" you can't count on facing a list with nothing but melta guns and no anti-horde weapons. And now that casualties come off the front you have a pretty bad choice: either blob everything together and die horribly to blast weapons, or spread out to maximum 2" coherency and find that non-blast weapons are pushing the front of your unit back faster than you can advance it up the field.

If your opponents are failing to do these things they really aren't taking advantage of 6th edition, and that's a sign of inferiority.

Ah, but they do, and very much so infact. However, I choose my positions well, keeping in mind firing zones and cover. Agressive guard can be played, and by no means are tanks terrible, the Battle Tank is more deadly then ever, no only due to the blast buff, but also glances are weaker.

General_Marshall wrote:
Ah, but they do, and very much so infact. However, I choose my positions well, keeping in mind firing zones and cover.

Except focus fire and model-by-model cover saves kill that whole plan. Unless you're playing with way more terrain than is standard your opponent will always have plenty of no-save targets to focus fire on, and the only way to even try to stop it is to pack them in as tight as possible so that one Griffon shot removes an entire squad. And even once you get behind some terrain it's only a 5+ save instead of 4+, taken from the front of the unit instead of from the back.

Agressive guard can be played, and by no means are tanks terrible, the Battle Tank is more deadly then ever, no only due to the blast buff, but also glances are weaker.

Sure, but "aggressive guard" means close-range veterans in transports with Hellhounds/Demolishers/etc all driving straight at the enemy with overwhelming firepower.

And I know that tanks are good, that's why 'suck' was in sarcasm quotes. However, the perception is that tanks are weaker and tank spam armies will be rarer, so you can't count on your opponents bringing nothing but anti-tank guns like they did in 5th against the dominant Razorback spam lists. Now some of those meltas and LCs are going to be switched for flamers, HBs, ACs, or whatever other anti-infantry weapons their codex has. So at the same time your durability has taken a severe hit you're going to be facing a lot more anti-guardsman firepower.

 Peregrine wrote:

General_Marshall wrote:
Ah, but they do, and very much so infact. However, I choose my positions well, keeping in mind firing zones and cover.

Except focus fire and model-by-model cover saves kill that whole plan. Unless you're playing with way more terrain than is standard your opponent will always have plenty of no-save targets to focus fire on, and the only way to even try to stop it is to pack them in as tight as possible so that one Griffon shot removes an entire squad. And even once you get behind some terrain it's only a 5+ save instead of 4+, taken from the front of the unit instead of from the back.

Agressive guard can be played, and by no means are tanks terrible, the Battle Tank is more deadly then ever, no only due to the blast buff, but also glances are weaker.

Sure, but "aggressive guard" means close-range veterans in transports with Hellhounds/Demolishers/etc all driving straight at the enemy with overwhelming firepower.

And I know that tanks are good, that's why 'suck' was in sarcasm quotes. However, the perception is that tanks are weaker and tank spam armies will be rarer, so you can't count on your opponents bringing nothing but anti-tank guns like they did in 5th against the dominant Razorback spam lists. Now some of those meltas and LCs are going to be switched for flamers, HBs, ACs, or whatever other anti-infantry weapons their codex has. So at the same time your durability has taken a severe hit you're going to be facing a lot more anti-guardsman firepower.

Even with anti infantry weapons, it's not often that people expect two or three battle tanks, a vendetta and over 60 guardsmen in 1000 points. No doubt it can be wiped out, but if spread out well, it forces smaller armies to become trapped and defensive, or thin out lines and be weaker. Then just run the troops up, and even if they die enmass, some of them will punch through and break the enemy position. It does depend on whom I am facing however, sometimes playing more defensive is the way to go, but not what I do for the most part.

 Ailaros wrote:
Firstly, this should be in tactics, not general discussion.

Secondly, I've been using conscripts recently, and I consider them to be the future of foot guard. Foot guard is so fragile now, that against an opponent who knows what they're doing, they're going to be able to actually kill off those 130 models that you brought. Before, it was almost impossible to get tabled with that much stuff, now it's shockingly possible.

Meanwhile, foot guard suffered heavily because of 6th ed rules. Wound allocation taking the models from the front and the loss of by-unit cover got rid of what you were able to do to make up for the force concentration problems, and changes to cover rule and the inability to properly hide commissars throws out their ability to stay on the board. Amongst many, many other problems.

So, if guard infantry are getting wiped out without really getting to do much, then you can't rely on infantry squads to give you your offensive punch anymore, especially compared to 5th ed. If this is true, then you've got to use your troops choices as nothing more than something that takes and holds objectives.

You know who takes and holds objectives, no matter how much they get shot at, or no matter how many close combats they lose? Respawning conscripts.

I'll give you this game. Every turn, my opponent kills off 5-10 conscripts. They immediately break and run off the board. 30 seconds later, I send in the next wave, and there the guys are, exactly right back on the objective, as if my opponent hadn't done anything. It got to the point after my third wave came in that I was tempted to stop actually removing the models off the board, as they'd be right back. Might as well have taken the 8 models off the board, and then put them back in their same places at the beginning of my movement phase.

Infantry units in foot guard are largely relegated to holding objective. Send in the next wave conscripts hold objectives on your side of the board better than anything else in the codex.

Conscripts - wave of the future. Today!

Ailaros,

At what points level would you start to consider bringing in your conscripts, with a minimum spend of 205pts for conscripts, Chenkov, and SitNW? Do you tend to find the basic 20 man conscript squad is enough, or do you go bigger?

General_Marshall wrote:
Even with anti infantry weapons, it's not often that people expect two or three battle tanks, a vendetta and over 60 guardsmen in 1000 points.

Sure, but that's just the flaw with small games, it's rock-paper-scissors because you can't really bring enough to handle spam of all types with the same list, so you have to make compromises somewhere. Try that mix at 1500-2000 where balance lists are possible even for armies that don't have cheap troops like IG and you'll have a very different experience.

Plus, that's really not that many guardsmen. My mech vet list can bring the same 2-3 tanks and a Vendetta (plus 3x Chimeras), along with 35 guardsmen and each of mine are a lot more powerful and hard to kill. 60 basic guardsmen are nothing.

No doubt it can be wiped out, but if spread out well, it forces smaller armies to become trapped and defensive, or thin out lines and be weaker. Then just run the troops up, and even if they die enmass, some of them will punch through and break the enemy position. It does depend on whom I am facing however, sometimes playing more defensive is the way to go, but not what I do for the most part.

Err, how exactly does it force anything? You aren't bringing many heavy/special weapons, and lasguns really aren't that scary when you're pulling lasguns off by the handful in your opponent's shooting phase.

 Peregrine wrote:

General_Marshall wrote:
Even with anti infantry weapons, it's not often that people expect two or three battle tanks, a vendetta and over 60 guardsmen in 1000 points.

Sure, but that's just the flaw with small games, it's rock-paper-scissors because you can't really bring enough to handle spam of all types with the same list, so you have to make compromises somewhere. Try that mix at 1500-2000 where balance lists are possible even for armies that don't have cheap troops like IG and you'll have a very different experience.

Plus, that's really not that many guardsmen. My mech vet list can bring the same 2-3 tanks and a Vendetta (plus 3x Chimeras), along with 35 guardsmen and each of mine are a lot more powerful and hard to kill. 60 basic guardsmen are nothing.

No doubt it can be wiped out, but if spread out well, it forces smaller armies to become trapped and defensive, or thin out lines and be weaker. Then just run the troops up, and even if they die enmass, some of them will punch through and break the enemy position. It does depend on whom I am facing however, sometimes playing more defensive is the way to go, but not what I do for the most part.

Err, how exactly does it force anything? You aren't bringing many heavy/special weapons, and lasguns really aren't that scary when you're pulling lasguns off by the handful in your opponent's shooting phase.

Well you've never played a game with me, so you wouldn't know. If you want to judge my tactics, go ahead, that's why I posted them. However, they work, they are by no means perfect, but they work.

Send in the next wave isn't very economical.

20 conscripts with next wave=30 regular guardsmen and a flamer, or it's 5 points shy of 40 conscripts without send in the next wave.

Chenkov + send in the next wave as an upgrade costs as much as 25 regular guardsmen, or 30 conscripts and a flamer. I don't think chenkov and next wave are worth it. He as to recycle over 30 conscripts just to pay for himself.

That being said conscripts can. Be a useful unit in a list with a lord commissar. Leadership doesn't matter in the bubble, and conscripts can do a few things better than guardsmen such as shoot at flyers, over watch flashlights, and get shot in the face. Also the lack of upgrades really does keep them cheap. While inside the lc bubble they are good at objective camping, or use them as the first unit to be sent after the relic. Imo as long as they are in a lc bubble 20 of them are a perfectly fine unit.

Snapshot wrote:At what points level would you start to consider bringing in your conscripts, with a minimum spend of 205pts for conscripts, Chenkov, and SitNW? Do you tend to find the basic 20 man conscript squad is enough, or do you go bigger?

I'm considering them in the lowest level possible, as it's the core of the army. I mean, at 500 points, you can squeeze in SiTNW conscripts, a small squad of veterans, and the basic HQ choice. I'd probably do it even at this points level. Certainly by 750.

General_Marshall wrote:Well you've never played a game with me, so you wouldn't know. If you want to judge my tactics, go ahead, that's why I posted them. However, they work, they are by no means perfect, but they work.

Well, and this is part of the problem. What you're talking goes against obvious deduction and whatever anecdotes we've experienced. If there's something different about your conclusions, then there is something very different going on for you. Without any way of knowing what this is, we're forced to speculate as best we can.

General_Marshall wrote: it's not often that people expect two or three battle tanks, a vendetta and over 60 guardsmen in 1000 points.

... especially when you say stuff like this. Three battle tanks, a vendetta AND a foot horde at 1,000 points? This just doesn't make any sense. The cost for the necessary CCS, PCSs, tanks and vendettas with a few necessary upgrades, and you're talking about 650 points, minimum. With the remaining 350 points, you're just barely squeezing that infantry in. All 40 of them. That's really easy to kill now, even at that points level. All you're going to see is 40 guardsmen killed practically instantly while the zero scoring units you have left on the board trying to win the game by themselves.

And this is what I'm talking about. You're making assertions that, with a small amount of thought, make me really wonder how you're winning games at all. Either you are a literal god of war, you're really lucky, or you have horrible opponents...

I've been giving them a try lately, and all I can say is this. Completely ignore everything I'm about to say, because there is no way in hell it's how conscripts should be working.

Why do you ask? Because of two things.

1. The worse the unit is, the better it will roll in my army,

2. I already roll freakishly lucky.

Combined, these two facts have turned my conscripts into some of the scariest mofos I've ever seen. In two games, a single 30 man squad killed half a tau army, and in a second, two 20 man units pretty much were all that kept me in the game against a DE player, by eating insane amounts of firepower and popping up literally every turn. (was in a hurry, wrote a horrible list, don't judge me) I'll probably keep using them for the time being, simply because they're hilarious in action.

Used correctly, they can be amazing. Used horribly, they can be irredeemable failures. They require a lot of strategy to use right, and as a result, they're a lot of fun to use. For some reason though, mine seem to think they're BS 3 and LD 10, because I've only failed 2 LD tests they've been called to make (out of maybe 10) and have routinely shot far and above what they should be hitting with BS 2, so this certainly helps It's become a running gag that the conscripts do not understand what their stats mean, so they just waltz across the board and mess up anything in sight.

Simply put, they are the ultimate meatshield. A 20 man unit will pay for itself roughly after the first wave, and after that pretty much every wave is free conscripts. As a result, the more aggressive you are with them, the better the pay off is. Watching a DE player's face when he realized that no matter what he did, he'd never kill them was pretty funny, and he usually had to devote a good 2 or 3 units of firepower to truly kill them off. When a conscript unit gets killed off 4 times over the course of a game, and yet continues to contribute to the fight, that's a big deal. The sheer weight of firepower spent to move those guys off is more helpful than one would think, and those lasguns, while not amazing, at least give them something to do in the meantime.

MrMoustaffa wrote:...and after that pretty much every wave is free conscripts.

Yup.

The first game I broke out conscripts in (this one), I got some pretty incredulous looks about paying 70 points to give 80 points of conscripts an upgrade. By the next monday (after the tournament the previous saturday which included this game), SiTNW conscripts had already climbed high into the local cheese scene.

As said, once they come in in their second wave, you're now +10 points of value over buying two squads of conscripts. By the third wave, you've paid for three units of conscripts and chenkov. By the fourth wave, your opponent is breaking down in tears, the objective forever out of his grasp.

Plus, you can do a lot with them in your backfield. Whenever your conscripts die, they AUTOMATICALLY show right back up, and can attack with double tapping anything on nearly your half of the board. That necron overlord on his indestructable chariot finally fell out in your deployment zone? Have conscripts run off the board, and then, magically, they're 30" over next to it. Oh, Mephiston just wiped out a whole squad of conscripts in your deployment zone? Here try again! They can be really disruptive, strategically, especially since they're scoring units.

Just want to say I'm really appreciating the constructive advice on this thread....




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess if you're playing Purge the Alien (p118) you'd have to be more careful, as you'd be surrendering a VP each time you did SITNW wouldn't you?

Also, if your opponent manages to actually wipe out he squad, are you still eligible to bring it back on? I'd assume not, but wanted to check.

Snapshot wrote:
Just want to say I'm really appreciating the constructive advice on this thread....




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess if you're playing Purge the Alien (p118) you'd have to be more careful, as you'd be surrendering a VP each time you did SITNW wouldn't you?

Also, if your opponent manages to actually wipe out he squad, are you still eligible to bring it back on? I'd assume not, but wanted to check.

To be honest though, if you're playing foot IG, conscripts are the least of your worries when it comes to killpoints. Unless you turtle as hard as possible, hide all your 5 man squads, and gunline as hard as possible, you'll have a hard time winning many killpoint games. We just require so many more units that it's pretty rough matchup for us.

And yeah, having conscripts that can magically show up on the other side of your deployment every turn is pretty awesome. Did that a couple of times today and it was awesome.

Ironically, the only times I've found that conscripts weren't that awesome was when they WEREN'T dying. When they're not drawing fire, it kinda defeats the purpose of getting them. I often found myself ENCOURAGING, my opponent to shoot at them, so I could get a free wave in

Yeah, purge is tough for conscripts, but that doesn't happen often. In the one purge game I've played with them, I almost won (no thanks to an opponent's artificer armored model that absolutely refused to roll a 1). And that was against Blood Angels, which has always been the toughest for me to fight as foot guard.

Two squads of 20 SiTNW conscripts with chenkov only costs 350 points, and there are things you can do to help conscripts stay on the board in this case (like if you have any independent characters or a leadership aura from a lord commissar or something). They still eat up a crapton of shots, even without respawning.

They're a drain on that mission (which doesnt' come up that often), but not a fatal one.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Ironically, the only times I've found that conscripts weren't that awesome was when they WEREN'T dying. When they're not drawing fire, it kinda defeats the purpose of getting them. I often found myself ENCOURAGING, my opponent to shoot at them, so I could get a free wave in

I actually took advantage of that in the first game I played with them. My opponent steadfastly refused to shoot at my conscripts so as not to give me more conscripts to defend my objective, so in return, I charged my conscripts straight up the field. They didn't take casualties because my opponent didn't want to waste shots on them. By the end of the game, they were claiming an objective in my opponent's DZ, but by that time it was too late. My stormtroopers had killed off anything that could seriously threaten to kill the conscripts off of the objective.

Because they're still scoring.

See, I think we're thinking about conscripts in the 5th edition mentality too much. While I haven't tried running them yet, there are often times where I would kill to just have a meatshield of bodies between the outflanking enemy and my valuable executioner. Regular gaurdsmen squads get obliterated off the field before the enemy even reaches assault range, and I'd very much love to have some bodies to keep those scary powerfists off the rear armor of my tank. Of course, I could just take another tank for the same price as SiTNW conscripts, but tanks are fragile, and conscripts aren't.

In short, my other stuff is killy enough, my executioner, stormtroopers, heavy wepons squads, valkyries, marbo, and even my plasma CCS has killing stuff covered. I already use the normal 10 man infantry squads as a meatshield/ objective holder anyways, so why not spend the points for the ultimate meat shield? Why not guarantee that I will always contest or have captured at least one objective in the game? It seems logical to me, at least.

Yeah the DE player I played against today made that connection about halfway through the game. However by that point, all the terrible stuff I had taken was already dead, so he didn't have much else to shoot

As a funny aside, every IG player I've met hates the idea of them, but the moment I explain how SITNW conscripts work to any non IG player, their jaw drops. The DE player especially was considering taking some for allies with his DE to represent "slaves'' that were being thrown into battle to distract the enemy, which I though was a pretty neat idea.

MrMoustaffa wrote:The DE player especially was considering taking some for allies with his DE to represent "slaves'' that were being thrown into battle to distract the enemy, which I though was a pretty neat idea.

LoL.

That's fantastic. Fantastic enough for a sound byte.

 Ailaros wrote:

Snapshot wrote:At what points level would you start to consider bringing in your conscripts, with a minimum spend of 205pts for conscripts, Chenkov, and SitNW? Do you tend to find the basic 20 man conscript squad is enough, or do you go bigger?

I'm considering them in the lowest level possible, as it's the core of the army. I mean, at 500 points, you can squeeze in SiTNW conscripts, a small squad of veterans, and the basic HQ choice. I'd probably do it even at this points level. Certainly by 750.

General_Marshall wrote:Well you've never played a game with me, so you wouldn't know. If you want to judge my tactics, go ahead, that's why I posted them. However, they work, they are by no means perfect, but they work.

Well, and this is part of the problem. What you're talking goes against obvious deduction and whatever anecdotes we've experienced. If there's something different about your conclusions, then there is something very different going on for you. Without any way of knowing what this is, we're forced to speculate as best we can.

General_Marshall wrote: it's not often that people expect two or three battle tanks, a vendetta and over 60 guardsmen in 1000 points.

... especially when you say stuff like this. Three battle tanks, a vendetta AND a foot horde at 1,000 points? This just doesn't make any sense. The cost for the necessary CCS, PCSs, tanks and vendettas with a few necessary upgrades, and you're talking about 650 points, minimum. With the remaining 350 points, you're just barely squeezing that infantry in. All 40 of them. That's really easy to kill now, even at that points level. All you're going to see is 40 guardsmen killed practically instantly while the zero scoring units you have left on the board trying to win the game by themselves.

And this is what I'm talking about. You're making assertions that, with a small amount of thought, make me really wonder how you're winning games at all. Either you are a literal god of war, you're really lucky, or you have horrible opponents...

1000 point list
Hq: Company Command Squad+ vox 55pts

Troop: Infantry Platoon
PCS+vox 35
Infantry Squad+Commissar+vox 90
Infantry Squad 50
Infantry Squad 50

Troop: Infantry Platoon
PCS+vox 35
Infantry Squad+Commissar+vox 90
Infantry Squad 50
Infantry Squad 50
Heavy Weapons squad 60

Fast Attack: Vendetta Gunship 130

Heavy Support: LRBT 150

Heavy Support: LRBT 150

With all due repect my good sir, it would do you some good to check your facts before putting down somebody's idea.

But that's what Ailaros said--4 infantry squads in 2 platoons.

Sure, the tanks are scary, but a worthy adversary would just clean up the four ten-man guards squads, the two Heavy Weapons teams and two five-man PCS, leaving you with nothing to score with. Heck, I've had that many guardsmen wiped out in a single turn when I was unlucky. If scouring or Big guns is rolled, Then you've got a little more leeway, but you'll have to rely on slow tanks, or one flier to score/contest an objective.


Also the lack of special weapons is concerning, and what special weapons there are can be taken out in one volley with the right weapon. The only thing I see as really durable is the vendetta (because it's a 'detta). But this is a thread about conscripts, not a list, so I suppose we should get back on topic.