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That's probably just a technical truth because he isn't a psyker.

 BrookM wrote:
Didn't they say that Garro is to become..

Spoiler:

one of the first inquisitors?

IIRC.

That's the one I was going with, but was too lazy to type up and spoilerize - thanks Brook!

 Alpharius wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Didn't they say that Garro is to become..

Spoiler:

one of the first inquisitors?

IIRC.

That's the one I was going with, but was too lazy to type up and spoilerize - thanks Brook!

That's the one which makes the most sense.

There was a lot of speculation that "OMG GREY KNIGHTS!" because of the fact that Garro wears armor which is grey, devoid of all insignia.
Which to me just makes sense, since the idea is to have people who report directly to Malcador the Sigilite rather than get bogged down in their Legion loyalties.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Didn't they say that Garro is to become..

Spoiler:

one of the first inquisitors?

IIRC.

That's the one I was going with, but was too lazy to type up and spoilerize - thanks Brook!

That's the one which makes the most sense.

There was a lot of speculation that "OMG GREY KNIGHTS!" because of the fact that Garro wears armor which is grey, devoid of all insignia.
Which to me just makes sense, since the idea is to have people who report directly to Malcador the Sigilite rather than get bogged down in their Legion loyalties.

I also like to think that not all proto-Grey Knights were psykers, I think AD-B's book makes mention of this regarding the early days of their order.

Yes, I think he's splitting hairs.

That, again, is the assumption but we haven't seen too much which suggests, to me at least, that is the case.

I'm more inclined to think that he is going to be the "founder" of the Deathwatch, given the way the Deathwatch is now evolving from the RPG. It's a given that he will be a founding member of the Inquisition though.

I think it's a rather sensible evolution, where not only do they deal with aliens but everything and anything that the Astartes could reasonably be needed for but the Grey Knights might not be needed for.

The Deathwatch is a more recent thing though, it does not stem from the Heresy era.

Deathwatch? When were they founded? I don't know. He seems to have found his life's work as Chaos fighter and Daemonhunter.

 BrookM wrote:
The Deathwatch is a more recent thing though, it does not stem from the Heresy era.

True, but who's to say we will not see the groundwork for it being laid down?

The Deathwatch did not just happen overnight. We could be seeing a proto-Deathwatch made up of loyalists from the Traitor Legions, who get parceled out to the loyalist Legions/Chapters after they've 'proven' themselves in the eyes of the Imperium.

There's a lot of room for something like that with Garro's story, I feel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Deathwatch? When were they founded? I don't know. He seems to have found his life's work as Chaos fighter and Daemonhunter.

All we know is that the Deathwatch was founded "centuries ago" at "a conclave of Inquisitor Lords--the Apocryphon Conclave of Orphite IV". I cannot find a date for that.

No way is Garro going to the founder of the Deathwatch!

Most likely candidates will he Hereticus or Malleus...

 Kanluwen wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Deathwatch? When were they founded? I don't know. He seems to have found his life's work as Chaos fighter and Daemonhunter.

All we know is that the Deathwatch was founded "centuries ago" at "a conclave of Inquisitor Lords--the Apocryphon Conclave of Orphite IV". I cannot find a date for that.

Centuries, not millennia, so Garro is not involved. I agree with Alp, Malleus is a more likely candidate, especially in light of his experiences en-route to Terra and what happened on Luna.

I'm still not convinced that Garro has anything major to do with the Grey Knights. I think part of the problem is that at the point where the HH Series is currently at the Sigilite and the Emperor are both working under the presumption that they will win this war and carry on with their plans. The problem we have as readers is that we know that the Emperor becomes incapacitated after Malcador fries himself on the golden throne. That will leave the Imperium without their first or second in command although he lives until the Second Founding when the Grey Knights are founded. If the Emperor is unable to enforce his wish that he is not to be worshipped as a deity people will openly start worshiping him. At this point one of the Sigilite's operatives may need to take charge of worship of the emperor as deity rather than have it fall to zealots like the Word Bearers. The one thing that sets Garro apart from the other marines is his acceptance of the Emperor as deity. (I am assuming this based on his often saying "the emperor protects" in private as he knows he shouldn't) Garro's involvement with the Grey Knights might be just simply that those who form the Grey Knights were recruited by him on behalf of the Sigilite and then he moves on.

 Alpharius wrote:
No way is Garro going to the founder of the Deathwatch!

Most likely candidates will he Hereticus or Malleus...

The Deathwatch is not an Inquisitorial branch.

They're the Chamber Militant for the Ordo Xenos, the alien branch.

Just nitpicking, but it's an important distinction I feel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrookM wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Deathwatch? When were they founded? I don't know. He seems to have found his life's work as Chaos fighter and Daemonhunter.

All we know is that the Deathwatch was founded "centuries ago" at "a conclave of Inquisitor Lords--the Apocryphon Conclave of Orphite IV". I cannot find a date for that.

Centuries, not millennia, so Garro is not involved. I agree with Alp, Malleus is a more likely candidate, especially in light of his experiences en-route to Terra and what happened on Luna.

The Inquisition, as a whole, is the most likely candidate.

We know that the Ordo Malleus has been there since the beginning. It's very likely the Ordo Xenos has as well.
The Ordo Hereticus did not come about until after the Age of Apostasy, unless they retcon that.

It's weird that the Deathwatch would be so recent. I guess it could make sense that the xenos did not really reassert themselves until the Waning. As to the "centuries ago" comment -- what is the time frame? Was that statement made in M41 or M42? Or does the source even provide time context for that?

I think Garro founding the Deathwatch would be awesome but it seems unlikely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One other thing -- aren't the GK founded as a chapter (Chapter 666)? So either their organizational structure precedes the Codex or they were formally organized after Guilliman promulgated the Codex, which seems more likely.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
No way is Garro going to the founder of the Deathwatch!

Most likely candidates will he Hereticus or Malleus...

The Deathwatch is not an Inquisitorial branch.

They're the Chamber Militant for the Ordo Xenos, the alien branch.

Just nitpicking, but it's an important distinction I feel.

No gak Sherlock - bu since you brought up Deathwatch, and since Ordo Xenos was centuries after Garro...there was NOT Ordo Xenos for Garro to even think about founding!

A important distinction as well.

Sheesh!

 Manchu wrote:
It's weird that the Deathwatch would be so recent. I guess it could make sense that the xenos did not really reassert themselves until the Waning. As to the "centuries ago" comment -- what is the time frame? Was that statement made in M41 or M42? Or does the source even provide time context for that?

The source I have for it is the main Deathwatch RPG, page 305.

The passage it is in indicates that all the Imperium has records of is that this event happened and the result was the formation of the Deathwatch. No records were kept of what was said or who exactly attended.

I think Garro founding the Deathwatch would be awesome but it seems unlikely.

Yeah, the Deathwatch as we know it would be a stretch I'll admit.

I do like the idea of a proto-Deathwatch though. There's no way that the Xenos just sat back and let the Imperium reform itself after the Heresy. And I highly doubt the Imperium just let any loyalists from the Traitor Legions back into the fold with open arms.
An organization which had them acting kind of like knights-errant on a quest would be an interesting concept to explore, I think.

One other thing -- aren't the GK founded as a chapter (Chapter 666)? So either their organizational structure precedes the Codex or they were formally organized after the Guilliman promulgated the Codex, which seems more likely.

Chapters did exist prior to the Codex Astartes. The Legions were broken up into Chapters, which were broken up into Battalions, which were broken up into Companies, which were broken up into Squads.

They could just have been founded as a "Chapter" since they were to be so specialized. Speculation on my part of course, but it seems logical.

Maybe Steve Parker's upcoming novel will shed some light on the history of the DW ... but I doubt it.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
No way is Garro going to the founder of the Deathwatch!

Most likely candidates will he Hereticus or Malleus...

The Deathwatch is not an Inquisitorial branch.

They're the Chamber Militant for the Ordo Xenos, the alien branch.

Just nitpicking, but it's an important distinction I feel.

No gak Sherlock - but since you brought up Deathwatch, and since Ordo Xenos was centuries after Garro...there was NO Ordo Xenos for Garro to even think about founding!

A important distinction as well.

Sheesh!

We don't know exactly when the Ordo Xenos was founded, Alph. That is the only one we do not have a relative timeframe to work from.

We know that the Inquisition was founded in the wake of the Horus Heresy.
We know that the Ordo Malleus was there from the beginning.
We know that the Ordo Hereticus was founded after the Age of Apostasy, after both the Ordo Malleus and Ordo Xenos.

Well, we're getting a bit far afield here so:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/494281.page#5070243

 Manchu wrote:
Maybe Steve Parker's upcoming novel will shed some light on the history of the DW ... but I doubt it.

Yeah...if anything, it will conflict with what is already established about the Deathwatch so wildly we'll have another Goto on our hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Well, we're getting a bit far afield here so:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/494281.page#5070243

Ooh. Excellent.

Garro it seems is intsrumental in the founding of the GKs, The Inquisition and the possibly Malleus. Deathwatch is not impossible but you just have to do so much to connect the dots there. I'm gonna have to pull out the old Occum's Razor and say it actually simplier and more plausible for Garro to be a Founder of all 3 of those lofty Institutions than Deathwatch.

Something else to consider...how are Chapters founded?

They will not be made up of new recruits, as they would not have the experience or wisdom to do what they need to do.

Instead, new Chapters would be founded by seasoned vetrans. Garro could have founded the Grey Knights, and help establish their doctrines and procedures, even though he is not a psyker.

SOME ONE has to teach all the neophytes how to fight...

If you gents could continue this conversation in the 40k background thread I created, that'd be aces:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/494281.page#5070243

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
No way is Garro going to the founder of the Deathwatch!

Most likely candidates will he Hereticus or Malleus...

The Deathwatch is not an Inquisitorial branch.

They're the Chamber Militant for the Ordo Xenos, the alien branch.

Just nitpicking, but it's an important distinction I feel.

No gak Sherlock - but since you brought up Deathwatch, and since Ordo Xenos was centuries after Garro...there was NO Ordo Xenos for Garro to even think about founding!

A important distinction as well.

Sheesh!

We don't know exactly when the Ordo Xenos was founded, Alph. That is the only one we do not have a relative timeframe to work from.

We know that the Inquisition was founded in the wake of the Horus Heresy.
We know that the Ordo Malleus was there from the beginning.
We know that the Ordo Hereticus was founded after the Age of Apostasy, after both the Ordo Malleus and Ordo Xenos.

The Emperor lies near death, now forever confined to the Golden Throne.

He focuses his impressive will, trying to stay focused long enough to direct his most loyal subjects.

"Garro... the galaxy has been torn asunder by the greatest betrayal possible... fueled by creatures from the Immaterium...Daemons if you must... and aided by Heretics... I charge you with founding an organization to combat these evils...wherever...whenever...however you must."

"Garro... protect us from... the Loxatl!"


Yeah...no.

Good lord, is it bad I can't give a single damn about this upcoming unremembered empire thing?

I only catch this thread every now and again, but isn't Unremembered Empire a follow up to Know No Fear?

I think a step beyond that even. Does make me wonder why Sangi is there and not on Terra, as is canon.

 BrookM wrote:
I think a step beyond that even. Does make me wonder why Sangi is there and not on Terra, as is canon.

He still has ~5 years in the timeline to make the trip, right?

Betrayal and Mark of Calth seem to be the follow-ups (although Mark of Calth may also contain "prequel" stories) to Know No Fear. Unremembered Empire seems to be the follow-up to Rules of Engagement (which is chronologically after Know No Fear and, I suppose, both Betrayal and Mark of Calth) from Age of Darkness.

This is the beginning of the story of 'Imperium Secundus', as first mentioned in Rules of Engagement and then again at the end of Fear to Tread.

During the Age of Darkness, the Astronomican disappeared for a long time. Fearing that the Emperor was dead, Guilliman set up a new homeworld for mankind, centred at Ultramar. It was his belief that he could create a second human empire to challenge Horus's Imperium for dominance of the galaxy, and he was probably right - even after Calth and the other traitor attacks in the area, Ultramar was VERY strong and protected geographically (in a galactic sense).

But Guilliman was a pragmatist, and knew that he wasn't the man to lead the common people. He suspected that Sanguinius was always intended to be the Emperor's heir, and so set himself up as kingmaker and when Sanguinius arrived at Macragge he was offered the crown - he would be Emperor while Guilliman became something like his Warmaster.

But there is a reason that this entire section of Imperial history does not appear in the records... and what that reason is, has yet to be revealed...