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Warpsolution wrote:
I had a master fencer tell me that chainmail eventually replaced full plate, because it offered nearly as much protection while restricting movement a lot less, and that this trend also lead to rapiers and the like being more widely used, but that information is at odds with a lot of other stuff I've read and heard.

Yeah, it is at odds with the commonly accepted historical record (the long term trend was to plate whenever it was economically viable, and that only changed with the development of gunpowder and all the changes to the battlefield that brought, and rapiers didn't become popular in order to poke through chain, but when armour greatly reduced and so a fast blade was preferred... even then they were not a major battlefield weapon).

You're absolutely right that hands on experience is nice, but it doesn't mean the person can be considered an expert when, well, the people who study the historical record are telling us something different.

But yes. The ideal weapon in trained hands is not the one we see everywhere. It's the one that's cheap and quick to make, straightforward in use, and that can be used well by a whole bunch o' dudes.
I imagine the footwork of a pike or even a smaller spear would be really small? They could make lethal strikes with very little movement up/down/left/right, so having a few dozen of your friends doing the same thing next to you wouldn't be a problem.

Yeah, the big deal is being able to use it effectively in close formation. Then the second biggest deal is reach, and then striking power. Hence the spear and then polearm being the primary weapons of war through various eras.

I don't have any source whatsoever on the chainmail stuff, curran12. Just word-of-mouth. Granted, it was the mouth of an amazing fencer and stage-combatant, but that doesn't mean he knows how everything went down with the stuff he uses.
From my experience, I feel like chain mail has a lot of potential to be both awful and amazing.

I've never heard of people holding on to large swords by the blade alone. That's a strange image indeed.
I think my favorite use for greatswords was keeping enemy sailors from boarding ships. Those huge swings were impossible to defend against when you're balanced on a plank of wood between two ships.

Chainmail does provide excellent protection against slashing attacks, some protection against piercing and very little against bludgeoning, so it definitely has its uses. I'd take a suit of chainmail over any slashing sword any day of the week, even up to swords that chainmail never saw like katana (overrated!). The best way to beat chainmail is to either get around the rings with very precise piercing or to simply bash it and break whatever is underneath.

But yeah, a big drawback of chainmail, and one that is rarely hit upon by games, is that its weight distribution is terrible compared to fitted plate. Think of it like a very heavy backpack. Chainmail is just hanging on you, all of the weight pulling down on your shoulders. Fitted plate, on the other hand, is distributed around your body. While the plate may have more raw weight, it is fitted to you specifically so it is not as burdening. I wouldn't be surprised if some forms of chainmail persisted well into the age of firearms, but I'd be amazed if it lasted any longer or better than fitted plate.

As far as weapons, the whole fantasy and gaming worlds have given the wrong ideas, both in romanticizing greatswords as big slicing weapons, but also in degrading things like maces as slow weapons. While a two handed maul might be slow, a one handed mace is an amazing weapon, fast, easy to use and loaded up with power. The issue for game designers is that it is not romantic, it doesn't look cool, but generally the best medival weapons were the plain ones.

The interesting thing is, Chain can have a decent weight distribution- the trick is that the torso bit needs to be 'woven' sideways, so that the stretchyness (there is a directional stretch to almost all chain weaves) went across the chest- then the hauberk, or shirt or whatever, was actually fitted so the lower half rested on the waist and hips, while the top rested on the shoulders.

There's a ton of Western Martial technology that's been lost and is only now being rediscovered.

Warpsolution wrote:
I don't have any source whatsoever on the chainmail stuff, curran12. Just word-of-mouth. Granted, it was the mouth of an amazing fencer and stage-combatant, but that doesn't mean he knows how everything went down with the stuff he uses.
From my experience, I feel like chain mail has a lot of potential to be both awful and amazing.

I've never heard of people holding on to large swords by the blade alone. That's a strange image indeed.
I think my favorite use for greatswords was keeping enemy sailors from boarding ships. Those huge swings were impossible to defend against when you're balanced on a plank of wood between two ships.

It wasn't the blade alone.

They would have the dominate hand on the actual grip and the off hand holding the sword by the lower third of the blade. These large 2 handed swords were not super sharp, most of the slicing power came from the sword's mass. You could run your hand down the blade without cutting yourself.

The technique was equal parts using the blade, the pommel, and the cross-guard to fight your opponent. Smashing his face in with the cross-guard could be just as effective as using the blade to run him through.

Grey Templar is quite correct. I was involved ina group that did medievil reenactments for various schools and such, and we used "greatswords" in many of them. Often, the way they were used was for the bottom third of the blad to not be sharpened at all, and often it was leather wrapped (think braveheart) so that you could get a good grip. It would be used with both hand on the "lower" grip only when large sweeping slashed needed (ie breaking through spears or pikes/against cavalry) but in close, you would grip with one hand above and one below the hilt, and use it in many ways like a staff or spear... you do not see that often

Silence

This axe dates back to the original invasion of Chaos. A blade of obsidian banded to a crude club of iron with bands of bronze, it was wielded by an unnamed Norscan in thrall to Nurgle. He earned the honour of being the first human raised to daemonhood by Nurgle, keeping the weapon, which was twisted into a powerful daemonic artefact. The daemon prince, now known as Botchulaz Blackaxe, continues to wield this ancient weapon in service to his god. Any foe wounded by this weapon dies instantly, for the weapon is the embodiment of death itself.

Type: Magic weapon (under Chaos mutations and powers). Mark of Nurgle only.

100 points

Gives +1 Strength and Armor Piercing. Any model that suffers 1 or more unsaved wounds from this weapon are immediately removed from play.

Oh yeah. That's what this thread's for...

Warpsolution wrote:
I don't have any source whatsoever on the chainmail stuff, curran12. Just word-of-mouth. Granted, it was the mouth of an amazing fencer and stage-combatant, but that doesn't mean he knows how everything went down with the stuff he uses.

Really, it means he likely has an excellent amount of knowledge about how best to use a weapon in duelling conditions.

But that alone doesn't define how weapons were used in the real world. The rise, decline, and rise again of plate was driven by the decline and resurgence of military infrastructure (due in turn to economic and political changes), not any change in the battlefield effectiveness of plate armour.

Nor does his experience necessarily translate to an understanding of how weapons and armour were used on the field of battle.

I'm not saying the guy is wrong or anything, I'm just expanding on your point that simply being a master fencer doesn't mean you know much, or anything at all, about historical warfare.

Blade of invetiable wounding.
50 points.
Always hits and wounds on 3+. However if the bearer has as strength of 4 or more the weapon does't modify armour.

Daggers of Shakuras
40 points
Paired weapon. The bearer gains a 5+ poison special rule.

Revolver hotshot laspistol ( 25pt upgrade)
IG only, Str 4 AP4 Rapid fire but has to roll a D6 to reload after 6 shots. 2+, next turn is able to move,shoot and assault as usual, on a 1 it takes two turns to re-load

 Vulkanhestan97 wrote:
Revolver hotshot laspistol ( 25pt upgrade)
IG only, Str 4 AP4 Rapid fire but has to roll a D6 to reload after 6 shots. 2+, next turn is able to move,shoot and assault as usual, on a 1 it takes two turns to re-load

I think you are in the the wrong forum. This is WHFB not 40k but a nice weapon anyway

Could work- if you run by the belief that the Fantasy world is merely a Long Lost colony of the Great Crusade.

Blackfyre

The heirloom Valyrian steel longsword of House Targaryen. Most famously wielded by Aegon the Conquerer, Daemon Blackfyre, and Aegor Bittersteel, subsequently lost in the Free Cities.

Magic Weapon

100 points

All hits wound automatically, ignoring armor saves. In addition, for every hit inflicted on an enemy, immediately roll a dice. On a 4+, that model loses any magical weapon that they were carrying. Lastly, the bearer causes Fear.

WARP-REPEATER

25pts

"18" range, strength 3, multiple shots [5], armor piercing, unstable ammunition, warpstone weapon, quick to fire.

Can only be taken by Skaven Warlock Engineers and Warlords.

CalasTyphon216 wrote:
Blackfyre

The heirloom Valyrian steel longsword of House Targaryen. Most famously wielded by Aegon the Conquerer, Daemon Blackfyre, and Aegor Bittersteel, subsequently lost in the Free Cities.

Magic Weapon

100 points

All hits wound automatically, ignoring armor saves. In addition, for every hit inflicted on an enemy, immediately roll a dice. On a 4+, that model loses any magical weapon that they were carrying. Lastly, the bearer causes Fear.

Should just change that to any model hit is removed to another game system.

-Matt

CalasTyphon216 has had some of the most crazyily OP ideas I have EVER Seen!

And I've been here a fair amount of time...

Bloodhorror wrote:
CalasTyphon216 has had some of the most crazyily OP ideas I have EVER Seen!

And I've been here a fair amount of time...

you should see his 40k stuff...

If everything is OP, then nothing is...

I agree with this statement.

CalasTyphon216 wrote:
If everything is OP, then nothing is...

how about just trying to make something that is under 100 points?

The Mithril Tankard of Everflowing Ale

Whenever it is needed most, the Mithril Tankard of Everflowing Ale will appear, to guide Dwarves to victory in their greatest hour of need. The ale flows liberally from this vessel, rapidly inebriating any and all Dwarves in the vicinity, and has a similar effect upon them as which comes upon the Drunken Masters of the far east, making them much more powerful and much stouter in the face of danger than they could ever be whilst sober.

Cost: 50? 100? Pfft as if I've had a chance to balance this out

Type: One handed 'weapon' (as in, a piece of wargear that takes up one hand, has no actual attack capability)

Effect: The wielder of the Tankard, and any unit he joins as well as any characters in that unit, become immune to psychology and gain 1+ Weapon Skill, Initiative and Attacks. However, they always move as though in difficult terrain, and count difficult terrain as dangerous terrain. This effect persists on any unit that the character then leaves, but for every such unit, roll 1d6 at the start of your turn; on a 5+ the party is over and the Dwarves are now hung over - they suffer -1 to attacks, initiative, and weapon skill for the rest of the game, and retain the difficult/dangerous terrain effect mentioned above. The Hangover effect can, of course, be cured immediately by a liberal application of ale from the everflowing tankard (ie, the character rejoins the unit)

 Dakkamite wrote:
The Mithril Tankard of Everflowing Ale

Whenever it is needed most, the Mithril Tankard of Everflowing Ale will appear, to guide Dwarves to victory in their greatest hour of need. The ale flows liberally from this vessel, rapidly inebriating any and all Dwarves in the vicinity, and has a similar effect upon them as which comes upon the Drunken Masters of the far east, making them much more powerful and much stouter in the face of danger than they could ever be whilst sober.

Cute idea, but 8th edition doesn't have difficult terrain. It's dangerous or nothing.

I think this would do better for Drunken Fighting:

50 Points:
Tankard of Everflowing Ale (Weapon), gives a S2 Breathe attack, Flaming.
Additionally:
Any unit joined by a character with the Tankard gains Skirmish while the character lives.
At the start of the next turn, roll 1D6.
1-2 they are Staggering Drunk, gain Random movement 2D3, moving in a random direction. End at the start of the next turn.
3-4 they are Swaggering Drunk, gain Random movement 2D6. Ends at the start of the next dwarf turn.
5-6 they are Fighting Drunk. Gain Random movement 3D3 and +1 Strength. Ends at the Start of the next turn.

Keep in mind, since you cannot join and break from a unit with random movement, once the game starts, nobody may join or leave the drunk unit until the character with the booze is killed.
Being a weapon, it may be taken by slayers. Because the effect of the weapon is shooting (breathe) it does not grant the model magical attacks in combat.

I just like the idea of skirmishing drunk dwarves staggering all over the table.

The book of insults: 50pts

This ancient tome contains such classics as "I've seen better beards on a trolls stunty", "You are like a bad case of herpes, wizard. You're inconvenient, embarassing, no real threat, and you simply will not go away" and the old classic " your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!" The book contains insults that drive even the most calm and collected opponent into a blinding rage.

If the holder of the book declares challenge it must be accepted. The character who accepts is decided by the declarer of the challenge and not the defending player. However the character who was challenged gains frenzy and eternal hatred(challenger) for the duration of the challange.

Note that Bretonnians may not take this as they are far too 'noble' to utter such foul phrases.

i am literally writing those down they are that good...

Basic spear, fight in one extra rank unless they charged and plus 2 I if they are are charged. This way that are defensive but not to strong I think.

Maybe also give lances also plus 2 I of the charge and mounted spears +1 I on the charge.

Begone foul Necromancer!

Chest of Riches

When a character with the Chest of Riches declares a challenge, or accepts a challenge, his opponent must make a Leadership test on the lowest unmodified leadership in the unit containing the challenger.

If the test is failed, that unit immediately joins the side of the character who possesses this item.

If the test is passed, the unit containing the owner of the Chest of Riches must make the same test. If they fail, they scarper off with the treasure and are immediately removed from the board.

A challenge from the character with this item must be accepted. This item may only be used once per game.

500 points.

Spears should either give ASF when charged, or cause an automatic hit from each model in base contact of the charging unit at S=charge distance/2 rounded down

Thus, a 5 wide unit of 20mm infantry charges a 5 wide unit of 20mm infantry, goes 11", and each defending model with a spear in base contact, so 5, would cause a S5 hit against the corresponding model.

Halberds should grant a parry save of 6++ in addition to +1S

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maces should have armor piercing

Axes should have +1 to wound

Swords should have +1 to hit

Adding a shield to any of these should give +1 armor and 6++ parry save

Adding a main gauche to any of these should give 5++ parry save, and each parry saves made grant the bearer 1 free additional attack at the end of the close combat phase.

Don't know if these have been said yet or not, but me and my friends have tested these changes and they are fun and work great!

Melee weapons
Spears: (on foot)
-- Fight in Extra rank, +1 str to when holding against a charge in the front arc

Spears: (mounted)
-- Fight in Extra Rank on the charge, +1 str on the Charge.

Lance: (mounted)
-- Fight in Extra Rank on the Charge, +2 str on the charge

Halbred:
-- Fight in extra rank, +1 str, two hands

Flail:
-- +2 str in the first round of combat, +1 str in remaining, two hands

Two Hand weapons:
-- Extra attack, 6+ parry (to front)


Ranged Weapons
Shortbow:
---Range 18"
---Str 3, str 4 in short range
---Volley Fire

Bow:
---Range 24"
---str 3, str 4 in short range
---Volley Fire

Longbow:
---Range 30"
---str 3, str 4 in short range
---Volley Fire

Crossbow
--- Range 24"
--- Str 4, str 5 in short range
--- slow to fire

Pistol
--- Range 12"
--- str 4
--- AP, quick to fire, +1 to hit in short range

Brace of Pistols
--- Range 12"
--- str 4
--- AP, quick to fire, multiple shots (2), +1 to hit in short range

Repeater Pistol
--- Range 12"
--- str 4
--- AP, quick to fire, multiple shots (3), +1 to hit in short range

Handgun
--- Range 24"
--- str 4
--- AP, move or fire, volley fire

Repeater Handgun
---Range 24"
--- str 4
--- AP, move or fire, volley fire, multiple shots (3)

Lochland Long rifle
---Range 36"
--- str 4
--- AP, move or fire, Sniper, +1 to hit in short range


The changes to guns, giving the pistols +1 to hit in short range make them more useful aka pistolers, giving handguns volley fire, helps them out alittle, the +1 to hit in short range on the long rifle makes some sense. The changes to the bows of giving them +1 str in short range makes them worthwhile now. The change to the crossbow to give it shorter range was needed to balance against bows, it can now move and shoot, but cant take a stand and shoot reaction, plus the str 5 in short range makes it mean.