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The Mantic store display model of the Shadow-Hulk has been spotted in the wild

https://www.instagram.com/p/BpZTadPDzWz/?taken-by=angel_giraldez

Not sure what the plastic model is though

A few bits from the Vanguard Q&A today

- going forward Mantic will not be doing rules for minis they don't make themselves.
- Just because something is in KOW doesn't mean it will find it's way into VG some things just don't fit at VG level. They took about 8 to 10 things from current KoW armies to build VG warbands from and would rather anything else be new to VG.
- Big things like the giant will be scenario specific rather than available to all so a Dragon would be scenario specific as well.
- New supplement next year with new scenarios, rules and lists.
- VG is to be used as a way of adding new minis, units and concepts for later use in KoW
- Retail plan for 2019
Balance of KS stuff
Dwarf Warband
Goblin Warband - new stuff currently being sculpted
Undead Warband
- New Warbands will be getting new minis.
- The free starter warband lists will be updated next month to include more of the current KoW armies such as Salamanders
- New cards for VG minis will be included with them at retail release. They will eventually go on easy army builder but not for a few months after retail probably to help support retail sales.
- Next Clash of Kings book will have KoW rules for VG units.
- Mantic currently have 1 mold maker and 1 resin caster so that limits their resin output.
- VG organised play kit in January.

If it's everything from Vanguard ends up in Kings of War, but not everything in Kings of War ends up in Vanguard, I'm ok with that. Certainly wasn't expecting to be able to stick my mammoth or any chariots into a skirmish game.

 DaveC wrote:
A few bits from the Vanguard Q&A today

- going forward Mantic will not be doing rules for minis they don't make themselves.

Seems like quite a shift in their modus operandi.

I guess they’ve expanded their range enough for it to stand on its own?

I just want the stats for a basilean spearman. I am quite disappointed that unit card is missing from the book.

At least the orcs have their axe warriors.

 StygianBeach wrote:
I just want the stats for a basilean spearman. I am quite disappointed that unit card is missing from the book.

At least the orcs have their axe warriors.

This video shows all the cards for the Basileans. The card for the War Wizard is included but not the mini. The Abyssal deck has a card for a Hellhound even though the mini is not in the KS.

 nels1031 wrote:

 DaveC wrote:
A few bits from the Vanguard Q&A today

- going forward Mantic will not be doing rules for minis they don't make themselves.

Seems like quite a shift in their modus operandi.

I guess they’ve expanded their range enough for it to stand on its own?

No models= no rules is spreading guys! Run, run before your games become infected too!

As long as they only do it for their Skirmishers it is fine

I can understand them not wanting to put out rules for armies they don't produce, as they don't make a living by selling rulebooks.
However there are a lot of gaps in the model range. I have a forces of the abyss army that can't field half its options due to not having models. My friends trident realms force would be unplayable with just mantic models.
I'm not sure any of their models ranges cover 100% of the options in their lists.
If it means we see a push from them to fill out the model range, then I'm all for it.

The big question is going to be when the inevitable new edition of KoW hits is all the stuff without mantic minis going to go away? (a potential pain in the future)

Or is it more that going forward we'll only include new stuff when we make a mini? (that shouldn't really make a difference to anybody)

The Q&A was on Facebook live so I jumped around looking for this. What they said is going forward they don't plan on adding new armies or units to KoW or vanguard that they're not planning models for.

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:The big question is going to be when the inevitable new edition of KoW hits is all the stuff without mantic minis going to go away? (a potential pain in the future)

Or is it more that going forward we'll only include new stuff when we make a mini? (that shouldn't really make a difference to anybody)

I would expect the latter, Mantic has given us no reason to believe they'll be that level of gakky.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
The big question is going to be when the inevitable new edition of KoW hits is all the stuff without mantic minis going to go away? (a potential pain in the future)

Or is it more that going forward we'll only include new stuff when we make a mini? (that shouldn't really make a difference to anybody)

Oh, I expect more things to simply disappear, with some background excuses like the last campaign, where the Brotherhood was completely destroyed and the Varangur "joining" the Northern Alliance (remember that, guys ?).

Let's face it : making rules for a game you sell and where you don't have miniatures just means people will go elsewhere to buy them. That's reality.

Of course, with the current team making miniatures at Mantic, it's impossible for them to supply all the armies they have made for KoW. So the reasonnable - and simple - solution is to squash the "unnecessary" ones.

Kingdom of Men is to be expected to go away, for example. Basilea is their official Mantic human kingdom. Maybe another one when they have the time and ressources to do enough stuff for a regular army (Rhordia with halflings could be nice, but it would be too much a niche, IMHO).

And frankly, their "not skaven" army is also at the top list of being flushed away, if you're asking me. Seriously, what were they thinking by making that one ? It's just begging for their players to go buy the miniatures at a GW shop, really...

If they would remove any of the existing army lists with 3rd Edition, the game will be dead

 Sarouan wrote:


And frankly, their "not skaven" army is also at the top list of being flushed away, if you're asking me. Seriously, what were they thinking by making that one ? It's just begging for their players to go buy the miniatures at a GW shop, really...

It's not, that was covered in the Q&A where they've been trying to figure out what design approach to go with it as they don't want to be "not skaven" with their ratmen nor did it seam like (as the auto wasn't the best) that they just want to them to be the fantasy version of Warpath's rat faction.

 kodos wrote:
If they would remove any of the existing army lists with 3rd Edition, the game will be dead

It's already in a bad state at the moment. Catering to WFB players didn't prove to be that good for KoW recruitment, in the end...I mean, how many players did actually buy Mantic miniatures for their armies, rather than just keeping their old WFB collection to play ? Because that's what the current lists clearly made for WFB players have as main consequence.

So it's perfectly natural to me that Mantic is trying to "remake" the setting so that players actually have to buy their miniatures to play their games. Selling only rules isn't what will bring most of the money in Mantic's pockets, after all.

 Monkeysloth wrote:


It's not, that was covered in the Q&A where they've been trying to figure out what design approach to go with it as they don't want to be "not skaven" with their ratmen nor did it seam like (as the auto wasn't the best) that they just want to them to be the fantasy version of Warpath's rat faction.

They don't have time nor the ressources to make their version of "not skaven" in fantasy, let's be real here. It won't happen after a very long time, at best. And I'm not really sure they want to as well - main reason they were made in Warpath is because GW never made space skaven so far, and so there was a hole here to fill.

 Sarouan wrote:

It's already in a bad state at the moment. Catering to WFB players didn't prove to be that good for KoW recruitment, in the end...I mean, how many players did actually buy Mantic miniatures for their armies, rather than just keeping their old WFB collection to play ? Because that's what the current lists clearly made for WFB players have as main consequence.

There are not many WFB refugees playing KoW, as it is not Warhammer. They either stick with the old rules or play other games that are closer to old 8th Edition.

But a lot of people who play KoW like the freedom of modelling. KoW attracts players who left Warhammer after GW got that attitude of making only rules for existing models and those are players who build up groups were new players buy Mantic models.

But than, if people don't like the models, they won't buy them no matter if KoW has only rules for existing models or not.
the difference will be, that others will stop playing and even those who like their models won't buy them because they play something else.

So it's perfectly natural to me that Mantic is trying to "remake" the setting so that players actually have to buy their miniatures to play their games.

You know, GW had the same idea with AoS, worked not well for them and it just survived because it is GW. The playerbase of KoW won't forgive Mantic something similar.

 kodos wrote:


There are not many WFB refugees playing KoW, as it is not Warhammer. They either stick with the old rules or play other games that are closer to old 8th Edition.

Exactly, that's my point. The players they gathered after AoS killed WFB didn't stay or invest in Mantic miniatures, because Mantic failed to appeal to them in the end. They just kept their miniatures, they had all the rules to play them as much they wanted.

But a lot of people who play KoW like the freedom of modelling.

Which is nice, but that doesn't bring much money to Mantic in the end. And I suspect that's the main reason KoW's line is not the priority of Mantic team, because they don't sell that many miniatures in the end. I believe that's the main reason they didn't produce a lot, and focused on the armies that were "Mantic only" enough to appeal, like Forces of Nature or the Nightmares.

But than, if people don't like the models, they won't buy them no matter if KoW has only rules for existing models or not.

That's the main problem of Mantic right now with KoW : it doesn't have a coherent range of miniatures. Quality varies greatly with age and, well, design choices. More hurting is that they released too many armies that they just can't support with their own miniatures. The only solution is to invest dramatically more in a sculpting/designing team focusing only on making miniatures - and we all know Mantic is currently unable to do that to the scales needed for all the armies covered with the current rules of KoW.

So reducing that range is a perfectly understandable solution while trying to build that new part of them.

the difference will be, that others will stop playing and even those who like their models won't buy them because they play something else.

Yes. They will lose some in hope to gain others. It's risky, as GW showed it. And that's why I'm saying Vanguard will fail in the end - the changes needed won't be accepted by Mantic's fanbase, because they will see the "evil" they tried to escape from That Other Company.

You know, GW had the same idea with AoS, worked not well for them and it just survived because it is GW. The playerbase of KoW won't forgive Mantic something similar.

Oh no, GW had the same idea since they made their W40k and WFB games. It was the purpose - use their miniatures in their games.

Here, with Mantic ? Core lists were indeed made for Mantic miniatures, but that wasn't the case with the extension of Uncharted Territories. A lot of the lists there were clearly, blatantly made for the WFB players, right at the time when AoS landed and left the Old World destroyed, with a lot of its fanbase lost, angry and confused. It wasn't made for "freedom of modelling" only, it was obvious they were written in hope to gather some of those players to try the KoW game system. Hell it even was an argument for KoW recruiters - "you can play with your WFB armies, there are new lists to cover all of your units!".

Let's not forget here that Mantic was born with making proxy miniatures for WFB. The game came afterwards, to make it look like it "wasn't made for Another Game" and play it a bit more long term. That's why I always have a grin when I read/heard that Mantic team only has "player concern above mere marketing purposes". Yeah, right, I'm sure that's the reason why the Brotherhood got slaughtered by the demons right at the beginning of the campaign, and then was given no chance of recovery with the flooding afterwards. Their death was wanted from the very beginning, and they're not the only ones here.

Sarouan wrote:
Let's face it : making rules for a game you sell and where you don't have miniatures just means people will go elsewhere to buy them. That's reality.

It must be terrible for Osprey. All those blue rulebooks of fantastic games and people buy miniatures elsewhere.
Why does this GW mentality of "rules can only be played with rules writers figures" seem to stick around?

I have undead for KoW. Most of it was GW, some is from Mantic, some from much smaller metal model companies. Mantic still get my money for rules. When I went for a new army (ogres) I mainly went with Mantic models. So, they get a good share of my money.

I'm not sure why you're always posting such negativity about Mantic in any thread related to them. If you don't like what they do, ignore them. Did they steal your cookies or something? Or maybe make you buy lots of lousy v1 Deadzone restics?

 DaveC wrote:
A few bits from the Vanguard Q&A today

- going forward Mantic will not be doing rules for minis they don't make themselves.

Oh, that’s reallly not good news from my perspective if true... being able to use my Skaven and (to a lesser extent) Beastman armies in a rank and flank set of rules is a very big part of why I’m a huge fan of KoW. I do love the rules, but if I can’t use those armies, I’ll have to find another set of rules to look at using. I’m not the least bit interested in buying a wholly new, Mantic, army just to play. And I’m really not sure Mantic is in a position to play the, “my way or the highway” game wrt models like GW has been able to do.

Really, crushingly, disappointing if true...

Valete,

JohnS

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

It must be terrible for Osprey. All those blue rulebooks of fantastic games and people buy miniatures elsewhere.

Difference is that Mantic Games sells a whole range of miniatures for their games. They're not exactly playing in the same league, and the costs they have aren't the same as well.

Why does this GW mentality of "rules can only be played with rules writers figures" seem to stick around?

Because when you try to sell your own range of miniatures, it's quite obvious that any rule allowing your players to go buy elsewhere isn't exactly what makes you bring money to invest in whole new miniatures.

I'm not sure why you're always posting such negativity about Mantic in any thread related to them. If you don't like what they do, ignore them. Did they steal your cookies or something? Or maybe make you buy lots of lousy v1 Deadzone restics?

Because I still care about KoW, which is my favorite game when I want to play regimental mass battle. I want them to do better than what they've done so far :better quality, better miniatures and better long term plans/coherent design. That's why.

Or maybe you believe that because it's Mantic, all they do is perfect, you should never criticize them and they're automatically better than GW ? Well, reality check ; they're not.

 Sarouan wrote:

Exactly, that's my point. The players they gathered after AoS killed WFB didn't stay or invest in Mantic miniatures, because Mantic failed to appeal to them in the end. They just kept their miniatures, they had all the rules to play them as much they wanted.

I know of no one who is doing this.
All those who play AoS bought in the new Stuff

 Sarouan wrote:

Which is nice, but that doesn't bring much money to Mantic in the end. [...]That's the main problem of Mantic right now with KoW : it doesn't have a coherent range of miniatures. Quality varies greatly with age and, well, design choices

Right, but Fantasy R&F is a slow growing thing anyway. Today everyone is jumping on Skirmishers and historical R&F is on the rise.
No one is going to buy a 200 model army and paint just to try the game. With a 10 model Skirmish it is different.

KoW needs an existing playerbase for others to buy into KoW models.
But than, Mantic is missing a consistent range for their main armies too.

The problem with the Dwarfs is not just that the basic plastic guys don't look that good, but that there are not all units available in the same style. Metal Berserker Infantry doesn't fit to the mounted Berserkers in style.

The only full range they have are Forces of the Abyss and Empire of Dust, everything else has something that doesn't fit in design wise or is missing too many units for a full army (Nightstalkers)

Waiting until there are full ranges available it make it hard for people to play the game meanwhile means it is dead when the models are done.

Warpath and Firefight were on the jump here, but for several reasons (missing models and no official option for other models) it was replaced with Star Wars Legion.
So no change here except that no one plays the game and Mantic doesn't sell anything but some books.

Oh no, GW had the same idea since they made their W40k and WFB games. It was the purpose - use their miniatures in their games.

Not really, as in the early days GW specially added rules and options were no models were ever planned to give people the option to convert
No models, no rules was not a thing until Chapterhouse and Gamezone screwed them over (and GW lost at court)

it was obvious they were written in hope to gather some of those players to try the KoW game system. Hell it even was an argument for KoW recruiters - "you can play with your WFB armies, there are new lists to cover all of your units!".
.

And the main answer if you tried to recruit WFB players for KoW was "I don't like Mantic models"
they did not care about using their existing stuff as for most of them, getting into a new game meant to buy new models from that company.
"I don't like their models so I won't start KoW" was the main reason the game did not made it for the ETC. (which was for the better, looking at some special people from that community)
the concept of KoW's freedom was only understood by, "historical" or new players.

While the idea behind was good, it was the wrong target group as the concept and the rules never fitted the average WFB player/GW costumer who wanted a "everything from the same company" product and liked the single model micromanagement rules.

Because I still care about KoW, which is my favorite game when I want to play regimental mass battle. I want them to do better than what they've done so far :better quality, better miniatures and better long term plans/coherent design. That's why

We all do, that is why killing KoW is not an option

Sarouan wrote:
Oh, I expect more things to simply disappear, with some background excuses like the last campaign, where the Brotherhood was completely destroyed and the Varangur "joining" the Northern Alliance (remember that, guys ?).

Let's face it : making rules for a game you sell and where you don't have miniatures just means people will go elsewhere to buy them. That's reality.

Of course, with the current team making miniatures at Mantic, it's impossible for them to supply all the armies they have made for KoW. So the reasonnable - and simple - solution is to squash the "unnecessary" ones.

Kingdom of Men is to be expected to go away, for example. Basilea is their official Mantic human kingdom. Maybe another one when they have the time and ressources to do enough stuff for a regular army (Rhordia with halflings could be nice, but it would be too much a niche, IMHO).

And frankly, their "not skaven" army is also at the top list of being flushed away, if you're asking me. Seriously, what were they thinking by making that one ? It's just begging for their players to go buy the miniatures at a GW shop, really...

That's a load of alarmist gak and you know it. The Brotherhood is still a playable faction, just minus a homeland in the fluff. Not sure where you get the idea of the Varangur joining NA? Do you mean how the Varangur fought against the Abyss (as their fluff would have) in the global campaign? The one when NA was still only a rumour?
What would Mantic gain by reducing the diversity of lists? Why can't there be more than one human faction? Saying KoM and Ratkin going away for no reason is stupid and/or fear mongering.

Sarouan wrote:
It's already in a bad state at the moment. Catering to WFB players didn't prove to be that good for KoW recruitment, in the end...I mean, how many players did actually buy Mantic miniatures for their armies, rather than just keeping their old WFB collection to play ? Because that's what the current lists clearly made for WFB players have as main consequence.

Is it? Seems to be doing well enough, YMMV depending on where you are though. In my experience Wargamers don't often stop collecting, so keeping one's old Warhammer army and getting a Mantic army is far from being mutually exclusive. Most of the players in my group get (or plan to) Mantic models if available for new projects/armies they start. Many players (myself included) buy books they don't need (like campaign supplements) to support Mantic (add then end up playing in the campaign as a result), because we like Mantic as a company and we love their game.

They don't have time nor the ressources to make their version of "not skaven" in fantasy, let's be real here. It won't happen after a very long time, at best. And I'm not really sure they want to as well - main reason they were made in Warpath is because GW never made space skaven so far, and so there was a hole here to fill.

Mantic can make a line of miniatures if they want to, as evident from their lines of miniatures that they have already made. How many they can do at once is another matter, so how long it will take depends if they actually want to and how highly they priorities it.

kodos wrote:
There are not many WFB refugees playing KoW, as it is not Warhammer. They either stick with the old rules or play other games that are closer to old 8th Edition.

You know, GW had the same idea with AoS, worked not well for them and it just survived because it is GW. The playerbase of KoW won't forgive Mantic something similar.

Most of the KoW players I know were WFB refugees as are many of the people doing KoW podcasts, so that's definitely not universally true. Remember that any particular area isn't actually globally representative, so we'll have to find some better data than the impression you get from your area to actually say either way.

Also; despite the horrific launch, AoS is actually doing well for GW. AoS and KoW are practically opposite is the kind of player they appeal to, so both kinds of players now have a game that suits them better than WFB could have done (because it tried to appeal to both).

The reason for the difference from area to area is that game growth in a given area is exponential (up to a certain ceiling), because the more popular a game is the more likely it is to grow. People tend to assume that things are popular for a reason (which is why we tend to jump on bandwagons and fall for the bandwagon fallacy). It's also why Sarouan sounds so ridiculous. Mantic has something other than miniature sales to gain from having people playing the game. Each person playing, even if they only use free rules, is an advertisement for the game and makes the player base bigger. The bigger the player base the more likely other people are to start playing and the more people play the more likely it is that some of them will buy Mantic products and armies.
Which was the reasoning behind the half price rulebooks for Vanguard (Ronnie said as much in an video), so Mantic do actually apply this concept to their thinking.

Sarouan wrote:Let's not forget here that Mantic was born with making proxy miniatures for WFB. The game came afterwards, to make it look like it "wasn't made for Another Game" and play it a bit more long term. That's why I always have a grin when I read/heard that Mantic team only has "player concern above mere marketing purposes". Yeah, right, I'm sure that's the reason why the Brotherhood got slaughtered by the demons right at the beginning of the campaign, and then was given no chance of recovery with the flooding afterwards. Their death was wanted from the very beginning, and they're not the only ones here.

This again! We know!
You're saying that the game is just an attempt to save face and/or look good? That sounds rather silly. I think it's more reasonable say that Mantic made a game because they saw an opportunity
See above on the Brotherhood..

cygnnus wrote:

 DaveC wrote:
A few bits from the Vanguard Q&A today

- going forward Mantic will not be doing rules for minis they don't make themselves.

Oh, that’s reallly not good news from my perspective if true... being able to use my Skaven and (to a lesser extent) Beastman armies in a rank and flank set of rules is a very big part of why I’m a huge fan of KoW. I do love the rules, but if I can’t use those armies, I’ll have to find another set of rules to look at using. I’m not the least bit interested in buying a wholly new, Mantic, army just to play. And I’m really not sure Mantic is in a position to play the, “my way or the highway” game wrt models like GW has been able to do.

Really, crushingly, disappointing if true...

Valete,

JohnS

The word "doing" is ambiguous. I'm quite certain (based on how Mantic has been and is doing things) that it means Mantic will not be making any more rules for minis they don't make (i.e. they are moving away from gathering players to making and promoting their own products), rather than removing existing rules for models that they don't make.

OK just to clear things up a bit as I listened to the original Q&A live with poor sound and no rewind option what was actually said word for word

If we add a new army now it will be one we make models for or are about to make models for ... we are not going to release new units or anything for stuff we don't make any more

So that's very much a going forward stance which is what I picked up on on my original listen - rules being covered by "or anything" what that means for existing stuff Mantic will need to clarify themselves (and we know Matt sticks his head in here occasionally ) but going forward don't expect new stuff that's not accompanied by a Mantic mini.

The above answer was in response to how many armies they can support in KoW if there is a hard cap and Matt thinks there's 2 or 3 more left and that's about it at some point you just start repeating yourself or can't find unique ways to do things.

In the more Vanguard specific part of the Q&A they said that the 4 Warbands they picked were picked as they are very distinctly Mantics IP.

 DarkBlack wrote:

Most of the KoW players I know were WFB refugees as are many of the people doing KoW podcasts, so that's definitely not universally true. Remember that any particular area isn't actually globally representative, so we'll have to find some better data than the impression you get from your area to actually say either way.

of course I always talk about my area and/or other games I looked into.
as it doesn't help much if the situation is different somewhere else while it makes it much harder for me to find someone to play who is less than 3 hours away

Austria/Germany is something special, those that still played Warhammer 8th and were upset with AoS, liked 8th Edi so much that they would never touch anything else
Others that quit earlier liked KoW but are upset that the new books are not available in German.

Than we have the tournament players who just play the game were tournaments are available and the scene is focused around the ETC (whatever game is played there, the local tournament scene is build around it, if a game is not played there, it is not worth a closer look)

of course it is not that extreme and things are more grey than just black/white

But KoW is more a game played in small local groups who buy whatever model they like, no matter if it is Mantic or not

PS:
an interesting international point of view regarding KoW from WFB players would be here
Results of survey on preference and qualities of Fantasy Tabletop Games (FB:9th, Quickstarter, AoS, WHFB, KoW)

not very representative but good enough to get an impression what qualities WFB players associate with KoW compared to Warhammer

 kodos wrote:

PS:
an interesting international point of view regarding KoW from WFB players would be here
Results of survey on preference and qualities of Fantasy Tabletop Games (FB:9th, Quickstarter, AoS, WHFB, KoW)

not very representative but good enough to get an impression what qualities WFB players associate with KoW compared to Warhammer

This data represents mostly 9th Age palyers, so really isn't a good measure of how popular anything is (including 9th Age).

What is interesting though: according to this study KoW scores higher on "easy to learn", "efficient game", "balance" and "robust rules" than other games, but lower on "diversity" and "immersion", suggesting that even 9th Age players think that KoW does what it is designed to do better, but put a higher value on other aspects of a game (which is probably why they play not KoW to begin with).

 DarkBlack wrote:

This data represents mostly 9th Age palyers, so really isn't a good measure of how popular anything is (including 9th Age).

never wanted to say that

What is interesting though: according to this study KoW scores higher on "easy to learn", "efficient game", "balance" and "robust rules" than other games, but lower on "diversity" and "immersion", suggesting that even 9th Age players think that KoW does what it is designed to do better, but put a higher value on other aspects of a game (which is probably why they play not KoW to begin with).

if you now assume that T9A player are mostly WFB players who liked 8th you get an idea why trying to catch WFB players after GW killed it with KoW did not worked out that well

 DarkBlack wrote:

 kodos wrote:

PS:
an interesting international point of view regarding KoW from WFB players would be here
Results of survey on preference and qualities of Fantasy Tabletop Games (FB:9th, Quickstarter, AoS, WHFB, KoW)

not very representative but good enough to get an impression what qualities WFB players associate with KoW compared to Warhammer

This data represents mostly 9th Age palyers, so really isn't a good measure of how popular anything is (including 9th Age).

What is interesting though: according to this study KoW scores higher on "easy to learn", "efficient game", "balance" and "robust rules" than other games, but lower on "diversity" and "immersion", suggesting that even 9th Age players think that KoW does what it is designed to do better, but put a higher value on other aspects of a game (which is probably why they play not KoW to begin with).

Yeah, I would imagine that 9th Age players recognize that their game is more fiddly and complicated than KoW, but they associate those qualities with WHFB and with a higher sense of immersion. They want a detail-oriented game with a high degree of customization and many flavourful special rules, while still being more balanced than the typical GW game. Keeping the immersion without compromising on balance (the latter of which is what GW does) requires a high degree of complexity. Although even these 9th age players find AoS to be the most immersive currently available game, which is pretty interesting...

 kodos wrote:

What is interesting though: according to this study KoW scores higher on "easy to learn", "efficient game", "balance" and "robust rules" than other games, but lower on "diversity" and "immersion", suggesting that even 9th Age players think that KoW does what it is designed to do better, but put a higher value on other aspects of a game (which is probably why they play not KoW to begin with).

You're making the mistake of assuming the all WFB players were like minded. WFB was the only fantasy mass battle game most people would consider for a long time. WFB also tried to "please everyone" to some extent (which did not help the quality of the game at all). Different players of that game liked different things about it. Some liked the setting and and enjoyed the crazy spells, others (like I would have) were in it for the game and tactical challenge. Some of those players were evidently the kind of player KoW is made for and getting them into KoW was a good move. Other players (the kind 9th Age is made for) liked other parts of WFB and are not the kind of player KoW is made for, those are also the kind of players who would be over represented if one polled the opinions of 9th Age players.
Suggesting that it was not worthwhile for Mantic to reach out to WFB refugees because some of the were not the kind of player KoW is made for ignores the other players, the ones Mantic were actually trying to reach.

So, Megan and I headed out the door, to head down the stairs to see our new landlord - at the same time the Fed Ex guy was getting out of his truck to head up the stairs, Giant box in hands....

I latched onto one of the giants, and the frost giant kit, rather than leave it all with Megan, a bottle of glue, and a can of primer.... (She got bored last week... and made a serious dent in our shared Mountain of Shame.)

Fit on the giant is decent - one part is going to need a hot water bath to fit properly. (The abdomen is in two pieces that don't quite meet cleanly.)

The club is a freakin' tree and is integral to the arm - I will be attaching it to the shoulders with a green stuff-super glue sandwich, with more green stuff to hide the seams. I may pin it, especially if I go with the resin Frost Giant arm.

He is very much a Skyrim style giant - I will be using one as a Jotunblood Frost Giant for Pathfinder, and the other for a Jotunblood Hill Giant. (I am kind of wishing we had gotten a third - I am really happy with the giant, even with the bit of work that will be needed to get the fit right.) I am curious to see what Megan does with the one she has already called dibs on. This will be her third Giant for her green skins.

The Frost Giant bits are resin - well made, no noticeable bubbles, but a fair amount of flash, and the vents and gates will definitely take some work. Nice... but not nicer than the base giant - I can recommend it for when you want to add some variety, but you get some nice options with just the base giant.

Which leaves you with some nice extra bits - I am thinking about getting some of the Bones Hill Giants (from Bones III, I think) and using the left over arms to modify him. (Which will leave me with different left over arms... and so the circle of life continues. )
Reaper Bones giant, spoilered, because slightly off topic:


They are big, and tall, and thuggish.

Looks like it will be fun to work on.

The Auld Grump