[Kings of War] Mantic Fantasy News & Rumors

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**Azazelx**

Bolognesus wrote:
Azazelx wrote:
I'm under the assumption that the command bits will be included in the retail boxes, but as you rightly point out (and I'd forgotten!) the command bits add another $5 to the Kickstarter prices. So the KS price is now the same as RRP without any discounts.

Someone else want to email that point to Stewart or add it to the KS comments? I'm too tired of it right now.

actually, no. Straight from 'Squig's june/july releases post:

MGE KWH11-1 Ogre Warriors (6) ~ JUL PreOrder $29.99
MGE KWH12-1 Ogre Shooters (6) ~ JUL PreOrder $29.99
MGE KWH70-1 Ogre Grokagamok ~ JUL PreOrder $14.99
MGE KWH71-1 Ogre Command (3) ~ JUL PreOrder $24.99

... so in effect you're paying $10 for command bits, too.

Ah, you're right. I hadn't spotted the Ogre Command box. The command packs they're offering really look like a ripoff by anyone's standards. $5 for a banner and horn arm in many of the sets is just insulting. Is the Ogre set the same $5? Because that one seems to be the only one that might contain close to $5 worth of parts, being 4 Ogre arms.

The Ogre command pack is a banner arm, Champion sword arm, Champion buckler arm, and (hooray!) a set of bagpipes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bolognesus wrote:

First of all, I still do believe mantic was issuing refunds to the deeply unsatisfied. Maybe SS can chime in here? Also, let's not confuse matters here; those Ogres are pretty damn close to concept and pretty well-received as well. I don't like the BOGOF thing either but making it sound as if these issues are compounded on the ogres (and believe me, I was deeply disappointed with the cats as well...) is a bit disingenuous and really, the 'radically different from the concept art' pretty much only goes for the sisters (which they were perfectly clear about - those were subject to MAJOR change past the end of the KS and they said so from the get-go) the trolls legs (the amount of armour plating was more or less designed-by-committee in the KS comments section, if I recall correctly) and the mummies - which I believe were clearly stated to be subject to major change as well. Hey, I dislike the sisters and the cat cav as well, but TBH, those were thrown in in such a way that one should have understood they were very rough ideas at the time. Doesn't excuse the bloody cats IMO, and the sisters are just a case of poor execution if you ask me, but you're well on your way to becoming agamemnon2.1 here.

Yeah, the sisters are poor execution, though they seem to have gone from medium infantry to light since the KS in terms of armour. The cats were supposed to be monstrous, which would have easily allowed huge, cool, armoured World of Warcraft-style cat mounts but frankly if the final models looked good and not cathorse with awful riders I'd have been fine with them as well. The problem with the trolls isn't the armour or lack of (both concepts looked great), it's the proportions.

**willb2064**

The Ogre command pack add-on is $10 in the KS survey.

**RiTides**

Yeah, bummer for those wanting Ogres. The whole frenzy Mantic tries to foster of "Buy now it's an AMAZING deal via Kickstarter!" kind of falls off when it's the same, or perhaps even a little cheaper, to wait and buy it online.

Again, it's all about presentation... some other kickstarter pledges end up being at or near retail, but they're not offering "buy one get one free" labels on things, and then giving you only one box's worth.

Shame since the Ogres are some of the nicer sculpts... as mentioned, it's one of GW's cheapest armies. Ironguts are 4 for $40, I believe, instead of 6... but still, ogres are one of the few armies people can actually afford to start from scratch for fantasy atm

**decker_cky**

RiTides wrote:
Yeah, bummer for those wanting Ogres. The whole frenzy Mantic tries to foster of "Buy now it's an AMAZING deal via Kickstarter!" kind of falls off when it's the same, or perhaps even a little cheaper, to wait and buy it online.

Again, it's all about presentation... some other kickstarter pledges end up being at or near retail, but they're not offering "buy one get one free" labels on things, and then giving you only one box's worth.

Shame since the Ogres are some of the nicer sculpts... as mentioned, it's one of GW's cheapest armies. Ironguts are 4 for $40, I believe, instead of 6... but still, ogres are one of the few armies people can actually afford to start from scratch for fantasy atm

Three things:
1.) Mantic is still an incredible deal when you factor in the free models. Not as good as some of the other BOGOs, but still better than you'll get in stores.
2.) The mantic ogres get cheaper when you consider the number of commands you actually need, great weapon troops, and blunderbuss troops. It's only one box set when you want a command that compares.
3.) Mantic ogres have shields - not stupid ironfists.

**scarletsquig**

Seriously, you get $500+ of free minis at the $225 level of the kickstarter, and that's whether you're BOGOF or no BOGOF for your actual pledge.

Including 7 ogres.

So, 70% discount, and then you're getting a 50% discount on top of that if your pledge is entirely non-ogre BOGOFs.

Just felt like that needed restating.

**RiTides**

You guys both seem to be missing the point:

1. If someone wanted specifically an ogre army with most of their pledge, they're paying close to retail, not buy-one-get-one-free.
2. That retail is not too far off from GW's, since GW's ogres are one of their few reasonably priced ranges.

It's a fair point...

**scarletsquig**

RiTides wrote:
You guys both seem to be missing the point:

1. If someone wanted specifically an ogre army with most of their pledge, they're paying close to retail, not buy-one-get-one-free.
2. That retail is not too far off from GW's, since GW's ogres are one of their few reasonably priced ranges.

It's a fair point...

No, they're not. There's an ogre army deal in the latest kickstarter survey that offers $225 worth of ogres (as calculated via the new retail list) for $125, and people are welcome to change their pledge to that.

**RiTides**

That would be great, and perhaps Mantic is responding to the criticism with that. Details?

**scarletsquig**

It's been live on the survey for the past 3 weeks. Several people who have actually bought an ogre army with their BOGOFS have already taken that option, others have simply switched their BOGOFs to other miniatures so they can save a whopping 3.5% by buying from a discount webstore (assuming it gives free postage).

**RiTides**

Edit: Whoops, misunderstanding

**scarletsquig**

I'm not arguing with you at all, no worries. Internet tone must have come off wrong there.

If you've pledged for a few packs of ogres, ask to swap them out for other things, or if you're really annoyed, for a refund on them. They'll be happy to oblige.

Be careful that you're not shooting yourself in the foot and reducing your pledge level below $225 before doing this though, because the $225 level comes with an extra 6 free ogres (as well as a bunch of stuff that can be traded for 50 ogres if you want).

**RiTides**

Ah, yeah, you're right

. Sorry. Or I just woke up grumpy. Anyway, I'm actually quite curious about the ogre army deal so I'll get off my arse and go check out the KS page

**Fenriswulf**

Squig, do you have a link to the list of exactly what is gained for having a pledge of $225? I am wondering where the whole 6 other ogres come from.

And while getting a whole bunch of stuff is nice, there's two conditions to that - You had to pledge high to get it, with the idea what you'd get would be like what was offered (such as from the sketch or the monstrous cat cav), and you're also got to be happy with what you're getting. Where's the value if the miniatures you receive are badly sculpted or malproportioned and are so bad you wouldn't buy them in the first place? I am at the $225 level, and I can't see myself using much of what's been shown thus far, free or selected. Where's the value in that for me?

**scarletsquig**

^ Here (and just 4 ogres, my mistake!):

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/451718.page

As for your other point, it seems like you're more annoyed by that than the ogres themselves, which you've said you didn't pledge for.

My honest practical advice if you're 100% unhappy with the kickstarter as a whole, and consider the vast majority of the miniatures badly sculpted/ poorly proportioned?

Don't ask for a refund. Instead, sell it once it arrives.

You'll be getting a bunch of stuff 3-6 months before its release date, before retailers get hold of it.

Most people in the KoW KS are planning on using their miniatures, so it's highly likely to turn a profit.

In fact, with a $225 pledge it's probably at the point where you can sell your entire package for $500. Don't forget, you're sitting on around $1k of stuff total RRP.

**Fenriswulf**

New post over at the Mantic forums -

James from Mantic wrote:Hi guys, James here. Sorry in advance if this explanation doesn't *quite* make grammatical sense - bear with me

When we price things up on a Kickstarter campaign, we're working with theoretical figures. That's no different to how it would be if we were funding by way of a bank loan, financial backers, or selling off the large pile of Aztec gold that's hidden under some boxes at the back of the warehouse. It's stage one of a project - working out roughly how much we're going to sell things for. The difference is that in the pre-Kickstarter days, or indeed with any projects we still do that don't involve Kickstarter, the project goes through several stages before we sell anything. We get concepts and sculpts done, we send those off to get tooled, and most importantly, we then find out how much it will cost to produce the models. Then, by doing some accounting-fu (where words like "margins" and "gross profit" come up, and I hide in a corner), we come up with the RRP. This is the price at which we can sell the models while making enough money to cover the cost of production, wages for all involved, pay the rent, and put a little aside for a rainy day. (Fun fact! Some companies inflate that last part rather a lot. We make a point of not doing that.) Sometimes that figure is the same as what we'd planned. Sometimes it's a bit higher, or a bit lower.

So let's backtrack a little bit. With the KoW Kickstarter, we set a price for the Ogres based on what we thought the tooling costs, etc., would be. We decided they'd be about the same as the werewolves or trolls, so $25 for 3 sounded about right. Then, towards the end of the campaign, we offered the BOGOF deal, where you got twice as much as whatever you were previously going to get for the same price. Loads of people were understandably excited about this. At no point were these numbers the final RRP prices, though - we hadn't gone through those vital tooling stages to work out the margins and the gross profits and the whatever else.

Basically, long story short, the BOGOF was for the price on the Kickstarter campaign, not the retail price.

So tell you what we'll do. After all, we're Mantic! We listen. We try hard to make it right.

If you're not happy with the deal you're getting on your ogres, drop an email to stewart.gibbs@manticgames.com and he'll pick your order out of the pile and make sure it gets an extra bag of three ogres for each $25 add-on you purchased. So you're getting 9 for $25, which is $2.78 per miniature, compared to the $5 per miniature you're getting at retail. How does that sound? You need to get your email to Stewart before the survey deadline, i.e. before midnight BST on 02/06/13.

Hope that sorts a few things out

Now that's a lot better. Good to see that they're listening. 9 for the price of 3 is a much better deal, and I am glad they are going ahead with this.

**RiTides**

Heck yeah, Mantic! 9 for $25 is a lot better, and should appease everybody involved. Good show

**Fenriswulf**

Reminder - You need to get your survey back in by midnight of 02/06/13 (2nd June) to do it.

If I can't get a win from buying Men-At-Arms, I might consider this deal. They're nicer sculpts than a lot of the other stuff, so why not.

**Buzzsaw**

Fenriswulf wrote:
New post over at the Mantic forums -

James from Mantic wrote:...

If you're not happy with the deal you're getting on your ogres, drop an email to stewart.gibbs@manticgames.com and he'll pick your order out of the pile and make sure it gets an extra bag of three ogres for each $25 add-on you purchased. So you're getting 9 for $25, which is $2.78 per miniature, compared to the $5 per miniature you're getting at retail. How does that sound? You need to get your email to Stewart before the survey deadline, i.e. before midnight BST on 02/06/13.

Hope that sorts a few things out

Now that's a lot better. Good to see that they're listening. 9 for the price of 3 is a much better deal, and I am glad they are going ahead with this.

Uh, is it my imagination or is this the worst possible way to do that (you have to let them know if you want 3 extra ogres?), why would you make that opt-in rather then opt-out? Everyone that did the Ogres now needs to email Stew? Poor guy...

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

If the run it as an opt in Stew has lots of work to do, but I'll bet only 20-40% of the backers will bother to do so

(many won't care, others will miss the announcement, others will mean to but forget/miss the cut off)

If the did it as an opt out they'd have to give away loads more ogres (and depending on when the models are actually being made this might cut too far into the number of units they've ordered for the retail launch date)

**Bolognesus**

... So now the 125 deal is actually less value or am I mistaken? Oh well, yay for flexibility; have three heroes inbound already anyway

**pretre**

On one hand, I love free stuff, on the other hand I'm not unhappy about the deal I'm getting.

Should I e-mail just for free stuff even though I have no reason to (and really Mantic did nothing wrong)? Or should I let it go? My Lawful Good-ness is conflicted.

**Bolognesus**

Hey, they're offering - email ahead. It's kind of perverse incentive if only the loudest complainants get the best deals and more easygoing folks are left behind.

...Maybe make it a really nice email?

**Cryptek of Awesome**

pretre wrote:
On one hand, I love free stuff, on the other hand I'm not unhappy about the deal I'm getting.

Should I e-mail just for free stuff even though I have no reason to (and really Mantic did nothing wrong)? Or should I let it go? My Lawful Good-ness is conflicted.

Well think of it this way - casting of a few more plastic minis isn't going to cost them very much so you're not really "hurting" them.

Then you can:

- Take your spare Ogres - paint them up nice, sell them, use money to buy more mantic products - win win win.
- Give them to a friend or stranger to get them started on their own mantic army - many wins
- Some third thing

**Fenriswulf**

What? No, email you fool, email!

Take it as a thank you for being nice enough to help fund the kickstarter.

Also, from the Mantic Forum -

Question - Does that apply only to add-ons that were purchased at the time of the KS or all the Ogre units currently on the wave 2 survey now available as 9 for $25?

Answer - All Ogre units currently on the survey.

So I am guessing that means that command units also come with 3 extra? If so, even better.

**Bolognesus**

Command 'units' are a retail thing; oges on the survey are all 6 (now 9) @ 25, with command bitz packs @ 10 or 12 or so bucks. Sorry, nice try though

**Fenriswulf**

Hah, oh well. I am sure people can get more than enough from their choices as it is.

**Bolognesus**

Oh, @ 9 for $25 they're pretty damn good already, yeah.

**Buzzsaw**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
If the run it as an opt in Stew has lots of work to do, but I'll bet only 20-40% of the backers will bother to do so

(many won't care, others will miss the announcement, others will mean to but forget/miss the cut off)

If the did it as an opt out they'd have to give away loads more ogres (and depending on when the models are actually being made this might cut too far into the number of units they've ordered for the retail launch date)

That's the thing, making it opt-in means that at least some people will miss out that would take advantage... and they will be pissed.

It just strikes one as a really silly way to go about things: maximizes the work for Stew and the backers while also making the chance of error as large as possible.

**Dysartes**

I've just emailed Stewart to check what I'd already requested, and made the suggestion they make that announcement as a KS update, so at least all the backers should hear about it.

**Alpharius**

Thanks for the heads up!

After all of the other sculpts that I was interested in turned out to be not so good looking, I went heavy on the Ogres, so this will help a lot!