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Manchu wrote:If you have time, please do post the name of that Chapter.

That would be the fire angels. They're an extremely young chapter of the 25th founding who was brought up on the Imperial Creed and really has no strong connections to other chapters. They're extremely close with the church and the adepta sororitas. This is mainly because, unlike other chapters, they prefer to see themselves as a part of the imperium rather than as a seperate defender.

Manchu wrote:It's just puzzling to me that the Sons of Medusa are openly "heretical," to the point of being distrusted by their allies, and yet distrust is the the worst of it. Obviously, being an Astartes chapter grants you some leeway. But the Moirae Heresy is kind of beyond the usual "idiosyncrasies" that are tolerated among the chapters.

It is odd, seeing as the Red Talons killed the Astartes within their ranks that followed Moirae. I would maybe guess that as they were 1st Founding it would be a bit to difficult to pull the same as a 2nd Founding Chapter.

Another fascinating, but not very well known read is the Corpus Auxilla Mechanicus, something produced by GW Specialist Games. It's still available here. I like how it goes into detail on sub-factions of the Adeptus Mechanicus (like the Inquisitions many sub-factions). One can suppose that the Moirae cult was another sub-faction of radical Mechanicism like the mentioned Khamrians.

I love the Adeptus Mechanicus, but there is precious little information about them. The odd story here and there and little rules. Am really looking forward to the Priests of Mars book.

jareddm wrote:

Manchu wrote:If you have time, please do post the name of that Chapter.

That would be the fire angels. They're an extremely young chapter of the 25th founding who was brought up on the Imperial Creed and really has no strong connections to other chapters. They're extremely close with the church and the adepta sororitas. This is mainly because, unlike other chapters, they prefer to see themselves as a part of the imperium rather than as a seperate defender.

Heresy! Some sort or weird, reverse sub-heresy but still.

Manchu wrote:IIRC, the Emperor is greeted by Knight Titans and the Knight Titans are in turn overcome by the apparent divinity of the Emperor. "Machine, heal thyself."

-_-

The Signature. Check it, yo.

I thought of you when I posted that. If I just say "Knights" no one knows what I'm talking about.

The Nova Terra Interregnum is also known as the time of twin Empires and lasted for 9 centuries

This was a period in human history of division and civil war in which the Imperium became fractured into a number of different warring factions. The Adeptus Mechanicus was also affected during this Interregnum by division and internal warfare brought about by doctrinal differences and competing centres of power. One of the most discordant of these conflicts was the Moirae Schism, a dogmatic battle between the Martian Orthodoxy of the standard Cult Mechanicus and a far more radical creed based upon the prophetic writings of a triad of tech-mystics from the minor Forge World of Moirae. The Moirae Schism was one of the most divisive and widespread doctrinal conflicts to afflict the Adeptus Mechanicus since the Horus Heresy. These heretical writings spread like wildfire through the domains of the Mechanicus even after Moirae was reduced to a cinder by the Fabricator-General of Mars' rectification fleet.

The Moirae tech-creed was based on the prophetic wave calculations of the triad of tech-mystics who believed that they had discerned a series of predictive patterns within the micro-fluctuations of the Astronomican's psychic beacon. They believed that these geometric patterns contained the word of the Omnissiah and God-Emperor from which the skein of future history and humanity's destiny could be read. These radical teachings included veiled references to the future overthrow of the Priesthood of Mars and the fusion of the Cult Mechanicus and the Ecclesiarchy into a unified ecclesiastical hierarchy. Such claims were predictably treated as dark sedition by the Mechanicus authorities on Mars and civil war was quickly sparked between the Orthodox and radical elements of the Mechanicus.

The disruptive creed of Moirae quickly gained influence; within the Mechanicus priesthood, a number of Tech Guard regiments and even some Titan Legions causing untold harm, before being transmitted further afield to Space Marine Chapters with close ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus - and in this the Iron Hands were no exception. Championed by the infamous Omnissian mystic, the Iron Father Setol Sollex, a significant percentage of those within the Chapter quickly embraced the Moirae doctrines. As discord soon followed, the Iron Hands were faced with the prospect of a full civil war within the Chapter. This was only averted by the wise counsel of the Iron Hands' Great Clan Council's intervention to propose a settlement. Though deemed straightforward and harsh, their solution to avoid mass bloodshed within their ranks was a simple one - exile from the Iron Hands' homeworld of Medusa for the minority who had embraced the dissident doctrines, and a binding treaty never to raise their hands against their former brothers enacted by both sides.

These quotes are from a thread that I created a few months ago and shed some more light on the matter. I think this would be a very awesome time for Forgeworld to explore and thus begin the creating of Mechanicus kits.

Mars has always been paranoid about loosing it's power and influence, this is just a case of 'A new challenger appears!' to them.

Manchu wrote:I thought of you when I posted that. If I just say "Knights" no one knows what I'm talking about.

So about that Iron Hand schism: Are the The IH the faction that believed the AdMechA should unite with the Church or The Sons of Medusa?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
So about that Iron Hand schism: Are the The IH the faction that believed the AdMechA should unite with the Church or The Sons of Medusa?

The Sons of Medusae is the Moirae-faction of the Iron Hands found up to the Imperial standard and not purged. They still to this day continue to recruit dissidents from their brother and parent chapter, as well as of course traditional recruitment.

Most interesting of all, Mars still trains their TechMarines. The most obvious explanation is the Mars is simply honoring its ancient treaties with Terra. But I have to wonder if the Moirae schism did not survive even within the Mechanicus itself.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
So about that Iron Hand schism: Are the The IH the faction that believed the AdMechA should unite with the Church or The Sons of Medusa?

The Sons of Medusae is the Moirae-faction of the Iron Hands found up to the Imperial standard and not purged. They still to this day continue to recruit dissidents from their brother and parent chapter, as well as of course traditional recruitment.

Imperial Standard? What is the belief system of the Sons of Medusae?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Most interesting of all, Mars still trains their TechMarines. The most obvious explanation is the Mars is simply honoring its ancient treaties with Terra. But I have to wonder if the Moirae schism did not survive even within the Mechanicus itself.

It does. It's covered in Titanicus which is around 39,700ish I think. It's just not a shooting war and it's kept in house.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
So about that Iron Hand schism: Are the The IH the faction that believed the AdMechA should unite with the Church or The Sons of Medusa?

The Sons of Medusae is the Moirae-faction of the Iron Hands found up to the Imperial standard and not purged. They still to this day continue to recruit dissidents from their brother and parent chapter, as well as of course traditional recruitment.

Imperial Standard? What is the belief system of the Sons of Medusae?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Most interesting of all, Mars still trains their TechMarines. The most obvious explanation is the Mars is simply honoring its ancient treaties with Terra. But I have to wonder if the Moirae schism did not survive even within the Mechanicus itself.

It does. It's covered in Titanicus which is around 39,700ish I think. It's just not a shooting war and it's kept in house.

I went for Lexicanum when I read up about the Moirae and Sons of Medusae. And it seems like it is a variant of the Moirae-belief, but one the Admech could swallow. I'm assuming that due to the fact they still are recruiting Moirae-dissidents from related chapters. The incident itself ended with an agreement of putting the Moirae Iron Hands into one singfle fleet-based chapter due to the voting of the leadership of the Iron Hands.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
So about that Iron Hand schism: Are the The IH the faction that believed the AdMechA should unite with the Church or The Sons of Medusa?

The Sons of Medusae is the Moirae-faction of the Iron Hands found up to the Imperial standard and not purged. They still to this day continue to recruit dissidents from their brother and parent chapter, as well as of course traditional recruitment.

Imperial Standard? What is the belief system of the Sons of Medusae?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Most interesting of all, Mars still trains their TechMarines. The most obvious explanation is the Mars is simply honoring its ancient treaties with Terra. But I have to wonder if the Moirae schism did not survive even within the Mechanicus itself.

It does. It's covered in Titanicus which is around 39,700ish I think. It's just not a shooting war and it's kept in house.

I went for Lexicanum when I read up about the Moirae and Sons of Medusae. And it seems like it is a variant of the Moirae-belief, but one the Admech could swallow. I'm assuming that due to the fact they still are recruiting Moirae-dissidents from related chapters. The incident itself ended with an agreement of putting the Moirae Iron Hands into one singfle fleet-based chapter due to the voting of the leadership of the Iron Hands.

What do you mean by the Moirae-belief? That The Emperor is The Omnissiah? Because that's the official line of the AdmechA anyway. Or are they of the opposite beleif?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
So about that Iron Hand schism: Are the The IH the faction that believed the AdMechA should unite with the Church or The Sons of Medusa?

The Sons of Medusae is the Moirae-faction of the Iron Hands found up to the Imperial standard and not purged. They still to this day continue to recruit dissidents from their brother and parent chapter, as well as of course traditional recruitment.

Imperial Standard? What is the belief system of the Sons of Medusae?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Most interesting of all, Mars still trains their TechMarines. The most obvious explanation is the Mars is simply honoring its ancient treaties with Terra. But I have to wonder if the Moirae schism did not survive even within the Mechanicus itself.

It does. It's covered in Titanicus which is around 39,700ish I think. It's just not a shooting war and it's kept in house.

I went for Lexicanum when I read up about the Moirae and Sons of Medusae. And it seems like it is a variant of the Moirae-belief, but one the Admech could swallow. I'm assuming that due to the fact they still are recruiting Moirae-dissidents from related chapters. The incident itself ended with an agreement of putting the Moirae Iron Hands into one singfle fleet-based chapter due to the voting of the leadership of the Iron Hands.

What do you mean by the Moirae-belief? That The Emperor is The Omnissiah? Because that's the official line of the AdmechA anyway. Or are they of the opposite beleif?

It's more the belief that the Ommnisiah goes profetic in the warp through the Astronomican. And that apparently weren't kosher for the rest of the Tech-Priests, so civil war ensued. So the Sons of Medusae is basically straddling on heresy, but their combat-record keep them from not being purged. Aslo it was disliked the thought of merging the Tech-Priests with the Ecclesiarchy.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
So about that Iron Hand schism: Are the The IH the faction that believed the AdMechA should unite with the Church or The Sons of Medusa?

The Sons of Medusae is the Moirae-faction of the Iron Hands found up to the Imperial standard and not purged. They still to this day continue to recruit dissidents from their brother and parent chapter, as well as of course traditional recruitment.

Imperial Standard? What is the belief system of the Sons of Medusae?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Most interesting of all, Mars still trains their TechMarines. The most obvious explanation is the Mars is simply honoring its ancient treaties with Terra. But I have to wonder if the Moirae schism did not survive even within the Mechanicus itself.

It does. It's covered in Titanicus which is around 39,700ish I think. It's just not a shooting war and it's kept in house.

I went for Lexicanum when I read up about the Moirae and Sons of Medusae. And it seems like it is a variant of the Moirae-belief, but one the Admech could swallow. I'm assuming that due to the fact they still are recruiting Moirae-dissidents from related chapters. The incident itself ended with an agreement of putting the Moirae Iron Hands into one singfle fleet-based chapter due to the voting of the leadership of the Iron Hands.

What do you mean by the Moirae-belief? That The Emperor is The Omnissiah? Because that's the official line of the AdmechA anyway. Or are they of the opposite beleif?

It's more the belief that the Ommnisiah goes profetic in the warp through the Astronomican. And that apparently weren't kosher for the rest of the Tech-Priests, so civil war ensued. So the Sons of Medusae is basically straddling on heresy, but their combat-record keep them from not being purged. Aslo it was disliked the thought of merging the Tech-Priests with the Ecclesiarchy.

That doesn't make sense because if The Emperor is The Omnisiah then that's exactly what he'd do. I guess it's not a matter of faith but one of politics. The tech-priests didn't want to give up their power to the Ecclesiarchy.

The Moirae tech-creed was based on the prophetic wave calculations of the triad of tech-mystics who believed that they had discerned a series of predictive patterns within the micro-fluctuations of the Astronomican's psychic beacon. They believed that these geometric patterns contained the word of the Omnissiah and God-Emperor from which the skein of future history and humanity's destiny could be read. These radical teachings included veiled references to the future overthrow of the Priesthood of Mars and the fusion of the Cult Mechanicus and the Ecclesiarchy into a unified ecclesiastical hierarchy.

I think this segment of text from my earlier quote, from Lexicanum I believe, really sums up the problem Mars had with this new faith. Namely they would be overthrown. Allowing the Moirae schism to spiral out of control would have led to another Heresy Level event.

As to the question on why the Adeptus Mechanicus would resist a unification, I think it is only logical. Even the whole point about the Emperor being the Omnissiah (representative, "Messiah" ) rather than their Machine God Himself was just a compromise to establish a minimum of overlap between their own cult and the Imperium, which allowed them to accept orders from the Emperor without abandoning their dogma of "Machine God > all". An important backdoor safeguard which would possibly enable them to counter the Emperor's demands, if the Cult Mechanicus' leaders would ever decide to annull the deal with Terra, and which became ever more important as the Ecclesiarchy gained a foothold in Senatorum politics.

Nowadays, the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Ecclesiarchy are rival organisations with rival faiths and aspirations. At the bottom of the food chain, you have the worshipper sheeple, who can be led around by simply pointing to the holy scripture. At the top of the food chain, you have the politicians, who are more concerned with gaining power, and protecting it against outside influence.

So what does that leave us with? If the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Mechanicus would ever unite on the grounds of universal acceptance of the Emperor's true godhood, the Fabricator General and his cronies would suddenly loose all personal power and influence, at best hoping to be named a sort of Cardinal for the Martian diocese of the Imperial Cult - in addition to having to deal with the hurtful "truth" that their dogma was just cancelled and they've been "wrong" all the time.

It's really not surprising that the Mechanicus leadership opted to act as it did.

Manchu wrote:Mechanicum doesn't mention the Emperor fighting a war against Mars.

But you know how it is with 40k and "canon". Mechanicum is "just" a Black Library novel. The same applies to Titanicus and a supposed continual existence of the Moirae Heresy.
Personally, I've always preferred GW sources, so *I* would go with the most likely explanation from the studio's own material. You can just as well go with one of the licensed products if you prefer its interpretation of events, or even come up with your own stuff - but don't be surprised if it does not match the fluff that GW has put out.

Also, thanks for the awesome WD quotes, Pilau Rice! I didn't yet know the Emperor forced the AdMech into the Imperium either.

It doesn't seem that the two sides of the Moirae scism even disagree on the whole Emperor/Omnisiah thing but rather about the unification of the churchs.

As I understand it the Son of Medusae believe in unification and the IH are for Status quo.

 Lynata wrote:
the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Ecclesiarchy are rival organisations

No, that's incorrect and it leads you to dubious conclusions. The Priesthoods of Terra and Mars are sovereign institutions in a mutualistic relationship. The Ecclesiarchy is hierarchically subordinate to the two Adepti, specifically to Adeptus Terra. Mars has its own holdings throughout the galaxy where, to the extent that there is any worshiping of the Emperor going on at all, it is worship of him as the Omnissiah. The Ecclesiarchy does not seem to send missionaries to the Forge Worlds and similarly there is no evidence of the Adpetus Mechanicus evangelizing the vassals worlds of Terra. Furthermore, the Moirae Schism was a heresy of the Machine Cult and not a movement within the Ecclesiarchy. In other words, it more likely signified a potential Martian usurpation of the Ecclesiarchy than the reverse.

The Moirae schismatics believed Mars would be overthrown -- but by whom? The more I think of this, the more it occurs to me that the main issue was not the idea that the Ecclesiarchy would take over the Adeptus Mechanicus. To be sure, those fears existed later and most especially in the lead-up to the Age of Apostasy. But the real issue of the era in question was the de facto division of Adeptus Terra. Given that, the primary concern of Mars must have been suffering the same fate. The Ur-Council renounced the High Lords but did not seek to usurp them. Can we call this an overthrow in the sense of the Moirae prophecies? Well, I think so, if you keep in mind that by succeeding, the Ur-Council was overthrowing the vision of the Emperor himself.

In the Moirae Schism, Mars saw the beginning of this disunity. What if the Forge Worlds of Segementum Pacificus renounced the Fabricator-General? Would Mars be overthrown? Not in the sense of someone killing and replacing the Fabricator-General but it would mean the end of the territorial integrity of the Martian empire, which is so deeply tied to the sovereignty of Adeptus Mechanicus. Mars is independent because Mars is powerful; Mars is powerful because it monopolizes technology; Mars can monopolize technology because of its independence. A break-away empire threatens that to the core and, perhaps more importantly, challenges Mechanicum orthodoxy, which is in turn the foundation of Martian sovereignty. It makes a nice, coherent circle that could be broken by a heresy like the Moirae Schism.

Note too that it was the Ecclesiarchy that ultimately destroyed the Ur-Council and ended the interregnum. Mars did basically the same thing, waging its own war of faith against the Moirae schismatics. The difference is that Mars launched its holy war before the schismatics were powerful enough to break away. Finally, note that the Sons of Medusa were only recognized by the High Lords of Terra after the Age of Apostasy, when the Imperium was finally free from large scale civil war. If what Mars was really worried about was the disunity of Adpetus Mechanicus, which was no longer an issue, and at the same time it's latent worries about the Ecclesiarchy had been laid to rest, it stands to reason that the Moirae beliefs held by the Sons of Medusa were also no longer dangerous to Mars. That explains why this strange belief system is only held in suspicion by other Marines and not purged outright.

@Manchu: I agree with everything you just posted except "In other words, it more likely signified a potential Martian usurpation of the Ecclesiarchy than the reverse." I think you even kind of go on to explain why then reverse is true. I think these "schismatics" were an internal threat to the extablished AdMech power structure not the Ecclesiarchy. I think a unification of the two organizations would leave the Ecclesiarch as top dog.

I'd agree with you if we were talking about the last century of M35 or most of M36. But the Ecclesiarchy had yet to rise to its "modern" level of power in those days. In fact, it kind of makes sense that it was the Nova Terra Interregnum itself that eventually empowered the Ecclesiachy. Nine hundred years of schism proved that the infrastructure of Adeptus Terra was unable to preserve the Imperium; it would take faith to do that. It was in the aftermath of the Cataclysm of Souls -- some thousand years after the Moirae Heresy emerged -- that the Adeptus Mechanicus began to move against the Ecclesiarchy. It seems to me that the Moirae prophecy, as interpreted by the Fabrictaor-General, foretold the absorption of the Ecclesiarchy (a comparatively less powerful institution) into the Cult of the Machine God. This was an act of pollution that could only be confronted through "cutting out the cancer." In order to preserve orthodoxy, the schismatics would have to be exiled. This is what we saw on a small scale with the Iron Hands. Now imagine it on a large scale with regard to the Martian Empire. One third of one thousand Marines is one thing; one third of all the Forge Worlds is quite another! So, unlike the Iron Hands who could afford division more readily than Chapter war, the Priests of Mars stamped out the Moirae Schism with the utmost prejudice.

 Manchu wrote:
I'd agree with you if we were talking about the last century of M35 or most of M36. But the Ecclesiarchy had yet to rise to its "modern" level of power in those days. In fact, it kind of makes sense that it was the Nova Terra Interregnum itself that eventually empowered the Ecclesiachy. Nine hundred years of schism proved that the infrastructure of Adeptus Terra was unable to preserve the Imperium; it would take faith to do that. It was in the aftermath of the Cataclysm of Souls -- some thousand years after the Moirae Heresy emerged -- that the Adeptus Mechanicus began to move against the Ecclesiarchy. It seems to me that the Moirae prophecy, as interpreted by the Fabrictaor-General, foretold the absorption of the Ecclesiarchy (a comparatively less powerful institution) into the Cult of the Machine God. This was an act of pollution that could only be confronted through "cutting out the cancer." In order to preserve orthodoxy, the schismatics would have to be exiled. This is what we saw on a small scale with the Iron Hands. Now imagine it on a large scale with regard to the Martian Empire. One third of one thousand Marines is one thing; one third of all the Forge Worlds is quite another! So, unlike the Iron Hands who could afford division more readily than Chapter war, the Priests of Mars stamped out the Moirae Schism with the utmost prejudice.

Well that's an interesting take on it because it turns it from a political conflict once again back into one of Faith. Supposedly the AdMech wanting to maintain the purity of it's religon.

However, the Ecclesiarchy was already very powerful and the time. It became the official State Religon in M32. It would have taken a mind boggling amount of clout to pull that off in an Empire that has athiestic roots and another preexisting powerful religon like the AdMech. The Age of Apostasy was the climax of the churches power, meaning it did not wane until after it was over.

Also, consider how much the Cult Mechanicus takes seriously puirty. The already allowed their faith to be co-opted by the seemingly unstoppable Ecclesiarchal faith be agreeing the Omnisiah is the intombed Emperor. That was after 5,000 years of established faith. They most likely did this because the Imperial Cult was a seemingly unstoppable, relentless power rising in the Imperium. It literally had it's fingers in everything. Even Astartes are carrying badges of the Ecclesiarch. Then final Moirae revelation most likely seemed like the final straw that would break their back and dethrone the Fabricator-General and it had to be suppressed. So I think I disagree.

Couple of points to consider:

In the Imperium, there is no difference between faith and politics.

The acceptance of the Emperor as the Omnissiah had absolutely nothing to do with the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy did not exist nor could it even be conceived of when Mars and Terra came to their accord. So your account of the power of the Ecclesiarchy before M36 is not well supported.

The Ecclesiarchy was not necessarily less powerful after the Age of Apostasy than it was before that era; it was only weaker than it was during Vandire's reign. It seems to me that the Ecclesiarchy was quite weak, compared to the Administratum, before the Nova Terra Interregnum. The interregnum happened because of and exposed the weakness of the Priests of Terra. This was the opportunity the Ecclesiarchy needed. That is why I carefully pointed out that it was the Ecclesiarchy rather than any part of Adeptus Terra (not the Astartes, not the Guard, not the Imperial Navy) that destroyed the Ur-Council and reunified the Imperium.

 Manchu wrote:
Couple of points to consider:

In the Imperium, there is no difference between faith and politics.

The acceptance of the Emperor as the Omnissiah had absolutely nothing to do with the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy did not exist nor could it even be conceived of when Mars and Terra came to their accord. So your account of the power of the Ecclesiarchy before M36 is not well supported.

The Ecclesiarchy was not necessarily less powerful after the Age of Apostasy than it was before that era; it was only weaker than it was during Vandire's reign. It seems to me that the Ecclesiarchy was quite weak, compared to the Administratum, before the Nova Terra Interregnum. The interregnum happened because of and exposed the weakness of the Priests of Terra. This was the opportunity the Ecclesiarchy needed. That is why I carefully pointed out that it was the Ecclesiarchy rather than any part of Adeptus Terra (not the Astartes, not the Guard, not the Imperial Navy) that destroyed the Ur-Council and reunified the Imperium.

I'll just respond in order:

That's a bit of a cliche. Just like in real life a Cardinal can be using pure politics to advance himself through the political structure of the church regardless of his devotion to the faith

Now here's something we shouldn't separate: The Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial Cult. At least not in regards to what I'm talking about. Both were on an unbelievably rapid rise that threatened the AdMech powerbase.

The fallout of the Age of Apostasty was that the Church couldn't keep it's own Army. This is only time we see The High Lords have enough political capital to curtail the Church. It took the second biggest civil war in human history. The fact the Ecclesiarch could destroy the Ur-Council and reunite the Imperium is proof of their power not the lack of it.

 Manchu wrote:
Couple of points to consider:

In the Imperium, there is no difference between faith and politics.

The acceptance of the Emperor as the Omnissiah had absolutely nothing to do with the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy did not exist nor could it even be conceived of when Mars and Terra came to their accord. So your account of the power of the Ecclesiarchy before M36 is not well supported.

The Ecclesiarchy was not necessarily less powerful after the Age of Apostasy than it was before that era; it was only weaker than it was during Vandire's reign. It seems to me that the Ecclesiarchy was quite weak, compared to the Administratum, before the Nova Terra Interregnum. The interregnum happened because of and exposed the weakness of the Priests of Terra. This was the opportunity the Ecclesiarchy needed. That is why I carefully pointed out that it was the Ecclesiarchy rather than any part of Adeptus Terra (not the Astartes, not the Guard, not the Imperial Navy) that destroyed the Ur-Council and reunified the Imperium.

You have a radically different view of the Ecclesiarchy than me. They came into power quite soon after the Horus Heresy. And shortly after the Moiraen Schism happened came the Age of Apostasy with the reign of Vandire. The Ecclesiarchy is responsible for training and indoctrinating the young at the IOM. The worst of them who also are competent can be compared to Stalin. Competent but brutal persons who often vie for power Vandire was just the most successful of the lot. Also then the Ecclessiarchy had armies on their own with men under arms (the Sororitas didn't yet exist). If anything they were even mightier then than now, and trying to merge two so powerful factions would only be catastrophic.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I'll just respond in order:

I'll do the same.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
That's a bit of a cliche.

So? Genetically engineered supermen wearing powered armor is not cliched? Plus, I didn't mean it in a cliched sense but in a historical sense. Read up on Roman civic religion to get more insight on this.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Now here's something we shouldn't separate: The Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial Cult.

Again: so? Neither existed or were conceived of when Mars and Terra got together. It wasn't either of them that forced Mars to accept the Emperor as Omnissiah. The Emperor did that himself.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The fallout of the Age of Apostasty was that the Church couldn't keep it's own Army. This is only time we see The High Lords have enough political capital to curtail the Church. It took the second biggest civil war in human history. The fact the Ecclesiarch could destroy the Ur-Council and reunite the Imperium is proof of their power not the lack of it.

You're not making any sense. So I'll try again.

M29 - Emperor forges bonds with AdMech
M31 - Horus Heresy, Fabricator-General breaks treaties
M32 - Temple of the Savior Emperor becomes official religion of Imperium
M34 - Ecclesiarchal power wanes (according to old Sisters codex)
M35 - Nova Terra Interregnum
late M35 - Ecclesiarchy reunifies the Imperium
M36- Age of Apostasy

Manchu wrote:No, that's incorrect and it leads you to dubious conclusions. The Priesthoods of Terra and Mars are sovereign institutions in a mutualistic relationship. The Ecclesiarchy is hierarchically subordinate to the two Adepti, specifically to Adeptus Terra.

No, that is incorrect - as the following diagram from the 6E rulebook shows:

Certainly, the Adeptus Mechanicus would have exploited its position quite a lot more in the past, had it truly been "hierarchically superior" to the Ecclesiarchy. Instead, we have the much more interesting squabbling of equal partners who are forced to play game but don't really like each other. The Ecclesiarchy continues to steal tech, and the AdMech continues to cheat on their contracts.

Manchu wrote:Mars has its own holdings throughout the galaxy [...]

As does the Ecclesiarchy.

Manchu wrote:Furthermore, the Moirae Schism was a heresy of the Machine Cult and not a movement within the Ecclesiarchy. In other words, it more likely signified a potential Martian usurpation of the Ecclesiarchy than the reverse.

Perhaps I made a mistake in my wording, but I did not think I ever hinted at the Moirae Schism having anything to do with something within the Ecclesiarchy. The point stands: If the Moirae Schism truly adopted the Imperial Creed and thus the divinity of the Emperor, it would accept the Ministorum's position as the "arbiter of divine law" and the Ecclesiarch's role as the earthly representative of the God-Emperor. Hence the drive to merge with the Ecclesiarchy, and hence the threat to the Cult Mechanicus' own power structure.
And lastly, why should Mars have done anything against the Moirae Schism if it was supposed to threaten the Ecclesiarchy, rather than the Cult Mechanicus itself?

Manchu wrote:The Moirae schismatics believed Mars would be overthrown -- but by whom?

By themselves, obviously. It's an internal War of Faith, just like the Ecclesiarchy warred with the Confederacy of Light in M33 - or rather, more like how Vandire struggled with Thor in M36.

Manchu wrote:M29 - Emperor forges bonds with AdMech
M31 - Horus Heresy, Fabricator-General breaks treaties
M32 - Temple of the Savior Emperor becomes official religion of Imperium
M34 - Ecclesiarchal power wanes (according to old Sisters codex)
M35 - Nova Terra Interregnum
late M35 - Ecclesiarchy reunifies the Imperium
M36- Age of Apostasy

M33 - "The power of the Ecclesiarchy spreads into every facet of Imperial life. From humble miners and clerks, through Imperial Guard and Navy officers to Planetary Governors and the High Lords of Terra themselves, everybody was an adherent to the Imperial Creed, in theory at least. Frequently, the High Lords would take their lead from the views of the Ecclesiarch, believing that he was the mouth of the Emperor; a belief the Ministorum did nothing to contradict. Soon, the Ecclesiarchy was indirectly dictating Imperial law, organising armies, deciding which threats gained priority and where to direct Imperial resources.
As the grip of the Ecclesiarchy grew, elements of the Imperium railed against such control. In the High Lords' councils, the Fabricator General of the Adeptus Mechanicus opposed the will of the Ecclesiarchy, and the Chapter Masters of the Space Marines also viewed Imperial orders with doubt. Following their lead, the Administratum began to fight against the pervasive force of the Ecclesiarchy.
Angered by their loss of control, the Administratum began to re-establish itself as the commanding, binding power within the Imperium. So began a feud that has lasted 7.000 years to the present. The Administratum exercised its influence in a number of ways, undermining the authority of the Ecclesiarch, influencing votes in the council of the High Lords and positioning its own loyal followers in powerful posts. From the late 34th to the early 35th millennium, the power of the Ecclesiarchy waned."

Also, note how the Sisters Codex describes that the Ecclesiarchy began to recover mid M35 thanks to the election of Greigor XI and the processes he kicked off. Note how the fluff mentions the Ecclesiarchy sending out "its armies" to forcibly collect ever-growing tithes spent on the rejuvenation process. As per the Codex, the line "Ecclesiarchal power wanes" belongs to the timeframe of "from the late 34th to the early 35th millennium." Do we have an exact date for the Moirae Schism? Was it early, mid or late M35? With a resurgent Ecclesiarchy, it could explain even more how the Adeptus Mechanicus' leadership could become "afraid" the Church gains too much power, and then going into shock as they hear that some of their own people basically want to convert.

Also, Vandire didn't invent the Frateris Templar fleets and armies. They were already there, ever since M33. Certainly, the Ecclesiarchy was much more powerful (at least militarily) as it is after the Age of Apostasy. It has regained much of its old influence, however, wielding its power more subtle these days, using more proxies (-> Frateris Militia, entire Guard regiments and Navy fleets commanded by faithful officers "coincidentally" helping various Cardinals, etc).

Beaviz81 wrote:The Ecclesiarchy is responsible for training and indoctrinating the young at the IOM. The worst of them who also are competent can be compared to Stalin. Competent but brutal persons who often vie for power Vandire was just the most successful of the lot.

The irony is that Vandire wasn't even a "true" Ecclesiarchy cleric but a member of the Adeptus Administratum who simply seized this post. Apparently, he became so megalomaniac that he started to believe in his own divine right anyways.

@ Manchu: You're not even making counter points. You just responding to the lead ins to my points

@Lynata: First, I said that the Ecclesiarchy is hierarchically inferior to Adeptus Terra, not the Adeptus Mechanicus. Second, I do not mean that the Ministorum is managed by the Administratum or some such; merely that the Terran Empire belongs to the Emperor and his government is the Priesthood of Terra -- not the Ecclesiarch. There is also the Martain Empire, which is co-equal with the Terran Empire. There is no co-equal Ecclesiarchical empire. Thus, the Ecclesiarchy is a "lower" institution; in the same sense that the Anglican Church is a "lower" institution compared to the Commonwealth.

Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:Mars has its own holdings throughout the galaxy [...]

As does the Ecclesiarchy.

To extend the metaphor, who owns the ground on which the churches in the UK are built?

Lynata wrote:If the Moirae Schism truly adopted the Imperial Creed

That is not the Moirae Schism. The schism resulted from a prophecy foretelling of the fall of Mars and the merging of the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Lynata wrote:And lastly, why should Mars have done anything against the Moirae Schism if it was supposed to threaten the Ecclesiarchy, rather than the Cult Mechanicus itself?

Again, that's not what I'm saying about the schism. It seems that what upset the Fabricator-General about the prophecy is that any merging with the Ecclesiarchy, on whatever grounds, would necessarily pollute Mechanicus orthodoxy and thus threaten Martian sovereignty.

Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:The Moirae schismatics believed Mars would be overthrown -- but by whom?

By themselves, obviously.

Exactly my point.

On to timeline issues:

First, the Ecclesiarchy began to recover mid-M35 but only fully asserted itself in the last century of that millennium in the Cataclysm of Souls.

Second, I am not aware of any exact date of the Moirae Schism. It is presented as a parallel development to the succession of the Ur-Council in the Sons of Medusa section of the Badab War books. And it seemed to have been stamped out before the Ecclesiarchy destroyed the Ur-Council at the end of M35. Therefore, the issue of Ecclesiarchical resurgence was not likely worrying the Mechanicus. After all, the Mechanicus had proven that -- unlike the Adeptus Terra -- it could keep its own Empire under control. However, Mars would have nothing to gain from a bifurcated Imperium (and indeed much to lose, as the Moirae Schism implies) so why would they oppose the only force that stood a chance of reuniting the Imperium, i.e., the Ecclesiarchy? They were certainly troubled later when the Ecclesiarchs started to threaten Martian sovereignty. But even under Vandire, the Terran Empire could not subdue the Martian Empire.

When the Frateris Militia were founded is immaterial. The Ecclesiarchy clearly did not have the strength to prevent or confront the Nova Terra Interregnum for nine hundred years. Nothing that I've posted even comes close to suggesting Vandire founded them.


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 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
@ Manchu: You're not even making counter points. You just responding to the lead ins to my points

I''m sorry KC, but you've worn out my patience. I can only suggest you read more carefully because you are arguing against points that I didn't make and my blood pressure simply cannot withstand having to clearly show how you are not being clear while also clarifying my points in relation to your wayward objections.