Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Manchu wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
but that's the Cardinal-promotion Manchu was on about. They might step out of being angry nuns, but then they won't come back.

Huh?

Oh an inquisitive member of the Sororitas might join the Inquisition and that ends her career as a Sororita as she heads for a new career. I thought you were sort of on about that, guess I guessed wrong.

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Being involved in the heirarchy of The Church is beneath them.

Is this something from a GW source or your preferred way of looking at them? I honestly cannot remember any such sentiment from a GW source.

My preferred way of looking at it. I'm speculating so because I think the Decree Passive wouldn't allow soldiers to be clergy simultaneously. I know the whole women loophole and everything but that was a loophole Sebastion Thor said they should be allowed. Anyways yes, I just thing being entangled in Church politics isn't something they'd be interested in.

I wouldn't say that, the Sororitas are very flexible as they have the Sisters Famulous who basically are politicians. And Sister Hospitalliers are basically a large ensemble of Sister Theresaes, and she scared the freaking pope (might be a joke, but I have heard it from various sources). And Bono has admitted he was actually very nervous facing her in an interview once. So they are than capable of politics, they are so more than just soldiers in my mind, and they have to be. For me they are basically female Grey Knights who doesn't have the magic of the Space Marines of course.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I wouldn't say that, the Sororitas are very flexible as they have the Sisters Famulous who basically are politicians. And Sister Hospitalliers are basically a large ensemble of Sister Theresaes, and she scared the freaking pope (might be a joke, but I have heard it from various sources). And Bono has admitted he was actually very nervous facing her in an interview once. So they are than capable of politics, they are so more than just soldiers in my mind, and they have to be. For me they are basically female Grey Knights who doesn't have the magic of the Space Marines of course.

Yes, of course but I'm talking about the actual Bolter-toting Adeptus Soriatas (Orders Militant). I think in a way you've convinced me even more. They already have a political branch for the politics.

That's fine KC. I'm not here to convince you to take my viewpoint. I like interesting discussions, and this one certainly is one of them. And the Bolter-Bitches can be taught new skills over the course of a long life. I mean the more flexible members of the Sororitas can have had records in any of the four orders, and I sort of take that as a requirement for advancing to the higher echelons in that place, I admit I'm on a tad shaky ground there as Warhammer-wiki is for me held in lesser regard than Lexicanum, but I like what's written.

It must be good, it taught you the term Bolter-Bitches..... No, I'm being sarcastic you probably shouldn't use that term. Kind of offensive.

You are right. Sorry, that term actually came from TV-Tropes. But I shouldn't use the term. The webpage for the Sororitas at Warhammer 40k Wikia is http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas it's a good enough read, but I don't know how canon.

And you got to have more in your head than "Burn the heretic!" to lead anything even in wh40k.

It seems we are way, way off course on this thread about the Moirae Schism
.

 Zakiriel wrote:
It seems we are way, way off course on this thread about the Moirae Schism
.

Not really you can't talk about the Moirae Schism without talking about The Imperial Churchs and religons.

 Zakiriel wrote:
It seems we are way, way off course on this thread about the Moirae Schism
.

I have already apologized for that, but try reading the whole discussion instead of just jumping in. And a MOD is after all involved and he haven't reacted. So why shall you?

Although in this instance they mater less than the attitude and forceful response from Mars' response to it.

The violence was necessary to avoid a greater evil. It have already be thoroughly discussed, but I at least would listen to new input about the conflict.

if it is still of interest: the plural of the noun "adeptus" is "adeptus" with a long "u". (u-declination). the meaning is "the achievement". "adepti" is the plural of the masculine participle form "adeptus" of the verb "adipisci", "to achieve s.th.". "adepta" is the female participle form of the same verb.

But to come back to Moira: I vaguely remember to have read something about the Moira heresy being connected with those AD fraction wanting to create a vessel for the newly manifesting omnissiah, in correspondence to the star child thing or the Thorian fraction of the inquisition. Is that so, or is my memory vexing me?

 Hruotland wrote:
if it is still of interest: the plural of the noun "adeptus" is "adeptus" with a long "u". (u-declination). the meaning is "the achievement". "adepti" is the plural of the participle form "adeptus" of the verb "adipisci", "to achieve s.th.".

But to come back to Moira: I vaguely remember to have read something about the Moira heresy being connected with those AD fraction wanting to create a vessel for the newly manifesting omnissiah, in correspondence to the star child thing or the Thorian fraction of the inquisition. Is that so, or is my memory vexing me?

The Star Child has nothing to do with either thingy. And the Thorian Inqusitors seek to preserve the IOM as it is. So not the most happy bunch to bring up the Star Child to, unless you want to experience a direct Ninth Action. 40kwikia shall give you ample clues.

I'm sorry for that you felt I ridiculed you earlier, I honestly found it funny the thought of cows going moo on the deck of ships of the line while under cannon-fire. Sorry for that one.

ok so surely a case of midnight memories. thanks for the fast answer!

I'm sorry for that you felt I ridiculed you earlier, I honestly found it funny the thought of cows going moo on the deck of ships of the line while under cannon-fire. Sorry for that one.

No prob! I had not posted in forums for a looooooong while and have to learn anew not to misinterprete posts for the wrong. edit: Besides, that scenery IS funny, come to think of...

 Hruotland wrote:
ok so surely a case of midnight memories. thanks for the fast answer!

No issue. I'm happy to oblige, and it's funny to give answers that is funny to do. Why else get into gaming, I'm into just to have fun. Which this thread shows ample proof of.

Yeah I pondered whether or not to give you a written apology, but I choose not to dunno why. But if in doubt take in general what I mean not offensively.

So do we have a little game of editing-ping-pong here?

Well in the end I for myself had quite overreacted there, I must admit. So no worries, and an apology from my side, too. Fellow gamers should not behave like science professors (that means, feel personal offended when someone disagrees with their arguments. Seriously, read the letters to the editor of any given scientific magazine...)

But lets end our personal discussion here. It is of no interests to the rest of the forum, and there is always pm available. As I said, it's all good for me.

Morning all!

Whew, the topic moved quite a bit whilst I was out.

Manchu: Personally, I prefer direct quotes, as they allow to directly adress points better than an unsegmented wall of text. True, there is the downside of the posts getting bigger and bigger ("quote war"), but I still think it is much easier to clarify individual points where each of us has a different position. So I clearly do not understand why this method is supposed to be "not helpful" - in fact, that even sounds a bit condescending, as if one assumes their own opinion has to be auto-right, and anyone who does not agree fails at braining, necessitating a different style of argumentation... But I will heed your request.

Anyhow, I still do not agree about a truly independent "Martian Empire" still existing at this time.

First, we need to clarify what you actually mean with the "Terran Empire". Am I correct in suspecting that this is referring to the worlds falling into jurisdiction of the Adeptus Terra? If so, I have to say that this is a needlessly confusing and oversimplified description, though I can see where you're coming from. In this sense, yes, one could even say that there still is a "Martian Empire" - just like one could say that there is a "Ministorum Empire". Because these three bodies all have their own worlds and no direct influence upon one another. What binds them together is the Senatorum Imperialis and the treaties wrought concerning their interaction.

Whenever people speak about a "Martian Empire", they (at least from my experience) usually refer to the idea that the Adeptus Mechanicus is an ally of the Imperium of Man - which is wrong, and which is why I think that terms such as "Martian Empire", "Terran Empire" or "Ministorum Empire" should be dropped, as they only serve to confuse everyone as to what exactly is being talked about.

So, these are the points that led me to my current stance:

Claim: All Forge Worlds are part of the Imperium of Man.
Source: List of planet types, 3E and 4E rulebooks.

Claim: The Imperium of Man has but a single leader, the God-Emperor.
Source: Do I really need to?

Therefore, the Adeptus Mechanicus is subject to the will of the Emperor, and in his absence, the Council of High Lords - as the 6E BRB chart I already posted confirms.

That the Fabricator-General is a High Lord himself does not change the status of his condition. Just like the Ecclesiarch is a High Lord, yet the Council can still pass on demands to the Ecclesiarchy. For example, as the SoB Codex tells us, consent from the High Lords is necessary for the Ecclesiarchy to declare and wage a War of Faith. Similarly, whilst the Fabricator-General is an equal amongst the High Lords, whenever he is outvoted by his fellow peers, then the respective command gets passed down to the Adeptus Mechanicus, which is then expected to execute said order.
Which, again, explains why Inquisitors are able to order Titan Legions around (5E BRB, p121), as they are hierarchically on the same level as the High Lords, subject only to the Emperor Himself.

Whew. This almost requires a topic by itself.

About the Moirae Schism, what do we know about it now? I'm usually not feeling too fond of incorporating Forgeworld fluff into my own perception, but since we literally don't have anything else to go by, and simply discussing what the guys at FW came up with is interesting enough, I'll play ball. However, from what you quoted, Manchu, it seems that this had nothing to do with the Imperial Creed per se, meaning that whoever entered this into Lexicanum just made it up? Typical, I guess. Unfortunately, then I don't know what the issue could have been, other than the Adeptus Mechanicus' leaders still fearing for their power, or perhaps simply fearing change. :(

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Abess has never actually been shown to have ever had a seat on the Council. That is more of a theory. One I don't subscribe to, I don't think she has ever sat on the council. It's an insignificant group and it would be like giving the Ecclesiarchy two seats.

The Abbess Sanctorum of the Adepta Sororitas can indeed be a High Lord - she just doesn't have a permanent seat, but is elected to this position depending on the state of the galaxy and the importance of her organisation. Other such "optional" seats include the Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard or the Lord High Admiral of the Imperial Navy. In total, there are 12 seats on the Council of High Lords, 9 permanent, and 3 open slots.
The 6E rulebook has an explanation of the Council including the full list of potential candidates in the addendum on page 403.

As for giving the Ecclesiarchy two seats - whilst that would, in theory, be correct, the situation is similar to giving a seat to the Imperial Guard, as the IG is a sub-department of the Adeptus Administratum, which already has a permanent seat.
I'm sure that who gets a seat and who doesn't is not only dependent on the current state of the galaxy itself, but also who has the most influence within the Council. It's all part of the power play between the various adepta. Like a big game of chess, just with people.

Beaviz8 wrote:The Abbess disappeared on a pilgrimage. The Ecclesserial decree was to leave the seat open. So I guess there is some major tension between the Sororitas and the Ecclesary not yet explored due to that fact. But it can also be the law, until the girl is found.

Yes, it's just the law:

"In the centuries following the Age of Apostasy, Saint Dominica led the Adepta Sororitas as founder and overall patron. Her martyrdom at the hands of heretics on Frideswide's World left a great void in the organisation, which experienced a temporary crisis as no leader felt they were able to adequately follow in Dominica's footsteps.

Eventually, Ecclesiarch Equitius XI intervened and ordered the leaders of each Order to elect one of their number to lead. After many weeks debate, the leaders agreed by majority that Sister Palmiro of the Order of the Holy Word was most suited to take up the rank of Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas. However, Sister Palmiro was an exceptionally humble woman and declined to lead, stating that it was her intention to depart on a pilgrimage to San Leor, and that she had no desire for rank and privilege.

After much debate, it was agreed that Sister Palmiro should complete her pilgrimage, but that she would take up the rank of Abbess upon her return, and regard it as a welcome penance. Palmiro agreed to these terms, and after barely a century, the tradition of electing the candidate who least desired the rank of Abbess to the post became commonplace, that she should regard it not as a privilege but as a penance, and that she should untertake a pilgrimage to San Leor before taking up the position.

This tradition was maintained for most of four millennia, until the election of Sister Sabrina of the Order of the Ermine Mantle. Unfortunately, Sabrina disappeared whilst on her pilgrimage and never returned to Terra. The last sighting of Sabrina and her entourage was on the ocean world of Habren IV, and though it is not known whether she fell prey to attack or some other misfortune, the Sisters of the Ermine Mantle have embarked upon at least a dozen missions to locate her.

Until she is found or her fate determined, Ecclesiarchal law dictates that the post of Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas must remain vacant."
- WD #292, Liber Sororitas

So, law dictates that there can be no successor to the post of Abbess until the fate of the last one is determined. Since this means that there literally isn't an Abbess around right now, she cannot become a High Lord as a sort of "side effect".

Although it would be funny if one of the 3 open seats is awarded to the Abbess and she just never shows up because she's still MIA. I could totally see that happen in the goofy IoM. They might even allot "speaker time" for her, during which everyone else just goes to read a book or whispers to their neighbor, unable to have the session progress until the time is up.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Adeptus Sororitas are just the Adeptus Sororitas and nothing else. They are pure in that way. This isn't a case of them being discriminated against, quite the opposite. Being involved in the heirarchy of The Church is beneath them.

One could say a Canoness is also a cleric - but only within her own organisation:

"A Canoness is the overall commander of one of the Orders Militant. She is responsible for the spiritual well-being of the Sisters under her command and her non-military duties include leading the Order in its prayer services, performing rites of initiation for new recruits and supervising the running of the Order. She is directly answerable to the Prioress of her Convent. In most military campaigns, other servants of the Ecclesiarchy bow to her superior skill and knowledge."
- 2E C:SoB

They are not involved in the hierarchy of the Church chiefly because one of their primary missions is to police said hierarchy and make sure no priest abuses their influence for unsanctioned cause. They are subject to the Ecclesiarch and follow his orders, but at the same time stand apart from the Ecclesiarchy's power structure and could indeed make a move against the Ecclesiarch himself should they deem it necessary. This was one of the lessons learned from the Age of Apostasy and Vandire's rule, and is meant as a sort of safeguard against this ever occurring again. Individual Sisters certainly engage in "clerical duties" when, for example, they make inspirational speeches to soldiers of the Imperial Guard, but normally they exist in complete isolation from the rest of mankind and keep their affairs to themselves:

"Part of the puritan lifestyle of the Sisterhood is its isolation and it is generally only the Canoness and her most experienced Sister Superiors who will have dealings with outsiders - even Sisters of another Order. The Sisters are utterly dedicated to one task or discipline and brook no distraction from their studies."
- WD #211

@Lynata:

The reason that quote block wars can be less helpful in this kind of topic is that it gets nitpicky and we start batting back and forth little barbs (like the plural forms of Latin words) instead of making coherent arguments. I'm sorry you find this condescending. For me, proof is in the pudding. Reading your arguments now, they seem much less distracted and I don't feel any temptation to get sucked into the sideline issues. As to your "auto-correct" comment, how you can make such a claim when presented with a detailed, careful, and extensive argument is really beyond me.

You are relying on two points:

(1) If there are Martian and Terran empires, then one can also say there is an Ecclesiarchical empire.

(2) The Imperium is ruled by the God-Emperor.

The first point is historically inaccurate. In the distant past of humanity, there were two galactic empires. One had its capital on Terra. The other had its capital on Mars. The Emperor conquered Terra. He was the Emperor of Terra. He did not conquer Mars but rather allied his Terran empire to the already existing Martian one and the alliance of the two empires is called the Imperium.

Later, an organization called the Ecclesiarchy was formed in the Terran branch of the Imperium. It has no bearing on the Martian branch. The Ecclesiarchy represents Terran religion. The Cult Mechanicus represents Martian religion. The Ecclesiarchy is not the government of the Terran empire. Rather, the Adeptus Terra is the government of the Terran empire. The great influence of the Ecclesiarchy on the Adeptus Terra -- not just regarding the Senatorum Imperialis but from the highest rungs of the Administratum down to the every day lives of the individual subjects of the Terran Empire -- still does not make the Ecclesiarchy the government of the Terran empire.

The Ecclesiarchy does however have a special role on certain worlds. We don't know the details but the Shrine Worlds seem to be giant churches. And as churches, they are run by the Ecclesiarchy. What can be confusing is the size of these churches. They take up entire planets. This becomes less confusing when we think of them as what they really are -- churches. There are Ecclesiarchical churches on many worlds, not just Shrine Worlds. Agri worlds, Hive World, even some Death Worlds all have churches. And those churches are managed by the Ecclesiarchy. However, the world itself as a territory of the Terran empire is governed by the Administratum. Even if an entire world is covered by a church and that church is run by the Ecclesiarchy the world itself is governed by the Adeptus Terra.

A good example is Holy Terra itself. The entire surface of Terra is more or less a holy site. It is covered in shrines and cathedrals. There is arguably no holier place in the galaxy than the Imperial Palace. And of course the Ecclesiarchy tends much of this. But the Terra is not governed by the Ecclesiarchy. Rather, it is governed by the Adeptus Terra. The Administratum may make exceptions, regarding tithing and other bureaucratic processes, for the churches -- just as the U.S. government allows all churches in the U.S. to be tax exempt -- but the important thing is that this is the prerogative of the Administratum. This is, by the way, not the same thing as saying that the Ecclesiarchy is at the command of the Administratum. In fact, the tithing exemption is likely a result of the Administratum acknowledging the institutional independence of the Ecclecsiarchy. In effect, the Ecclesiarchy may govern itself but it does not govern the Terran empire.

Furthermore, it has no empire of its own -- at least not in the literal sense of empire. The Ecclesiarchy developed amidst the Terran empire. It did not pre-exist the Terran empire. Unlike Mars, the Emperor did not make an alliance with the Ecclesiarchy to form the Imperium. Instead, Adeptus Terra adopted the teachings of the Ecclesiarchy as the state religion of a pre-existing state, the Terran empire. We know that it is not the state religion of the Imperium because it is not the religion of Mars. Terra and Mars together make up the Imperium. The Ecclesiarchy is a Terran institution and NOT a Martian one.

That brings me to your next point, which is an error of perspective as well as being a historical error. The Imperium is personified by the Master of Mankind -- NOT the God-Emperor. When the Imperium was founded, there was no such thing as the God-Emperor. Furthermore, the Emperor explicitly rejected any such title. Instead, he claimed the title of the Master of Mankind. How is this possible? Because all of mankind either belonged to the Terran or Martian empires. He is the Emperor of Terra with regard to the Terran empire and the Omnissiah with regard to the Martian empire. And with regard to the Imperium, which is the union of Terra and Mars, he is the Master of Mankind.

The title of God-Emperor was attributed to him later, by the Ecclesiarchy in cooperation with Adeptus Terra and likely the approval of the Senatorum Imperialis. So the Fabricator-General would basically say "if you Terrans want to call him God-Emperor, fine, but he's not that to us." So saying that the God-Emperor rules over the Imperium is not only historically false but also a matter of assuming a merely Terran perspective when describing the Imperium. But the Imperial perspective is not just Terran. It is also Martian. For this reason, we also cannot say that the Omnissiah rules over the Imperium. Terra follows its God-Emperor. Mars follows its Omnissiah. All mankind owes fealty to the Master of Mankind.

@Lynata. On the two points you addressed me on. This thread got me thinking if there ever was a time The Abess was a High Lord it could be during the Reign of Blood. With that seat as a sort of puppet and the Ecclesiarch and Administratum seat you could see how he really ticked everyone off. Just a theory because I don't know if an Abess like position existed back then.

On the other I don't care about this whole clergy within her own organization and gives inspirational speeches stuff. The point at issue is if a Sister be a within the priesthood. Could an SoB be a Bishop? The information you've provided further proves they can not. They are to be apart from it. Servants and also it's police force. I think when they do make violent moves against the clergy it is accepted because they are so respected. They gain this respect by being outside the command structure and aloof.

Manchu: Your argument certainly was detailed, careful and extensive. That doesn't change that I still believe it's wrong, though, hence your continued insistence and choice of words feels a bit patronising. Though I'm sure that this isn't your intention; I know you long enough to know that.

Anyways, the "historical accuracy" you are talking about is of absolutely no relevance. All of us (at least I hope so) know that at some point in time there was a sort of Martian Empire. Or rather, it was actually just Mars. The Adeptus Mechanicus only began to acquire control of further worlds outside the solar system as the Great Crusade ventured outward. What I'm saying is that this "Empire" in this form ceased to exist at the time of unification. What you have now is no different than the Adeptus Ministorum with its Shrine Worlds. If you believe otherwise, back it up with some fluff quotes.

Also, the bit about the "Master of Mankind" really is not necessary; I'm not sure why you get so stuck on it. Whether or not the Emperor is a god or is revered as such does not matter in the slightest for the political role he had (and has) for the Imperium. Which is to be its boss. There is no equal "Mechanicus partner" for him - and consequently, not for the High Lords. The Adeptus Mechanicus is a division of the Imperium of Man just like all the other organisations are, and as such subject to the Inquisition (at least in theory) as well as the Council of High Lords. For the High Lords "are tasked with interpreting the Emperor's will and enacting his rule across the largest empire in the galaxy" (6E BRB p403). This is what enables the High Lords and the Inquisition to order the supposedly independent Space Marines around, too. The Adeptus Astartes, just as the Adeptus Mechanicus, stand apart from the Adeptus Terra - but not the word of the Emperor, or the High Lords who rule in his stead.

I really feel like you have interpreted a lot of things into my post/s that I did not say.

Also, I totally overlooked this earlier:

Hruotland wrote:if it is still of interest: the plural of the noun "adeptus" is "adeptus" with a long "u". (u-declination). the meaning is "the achievement". "adepti" is the plural of the masculine participle form "adeptus" of the verb "adipisci", "to achieve s.th.". "adepta" is the female participle form of the same verb.

Whilst I do assume that this is correct in our real actual life, I don't think it applies to 40k. Call it the GW writers not getting stuff right (just like they write "codexes" rather than "codices"), or explain it with Imperial Gothic being a perverted form of Latin mixed with English ... for what it describes in 40k, "adeptus" is a made up word anyways. The only way to explain how it's called Adepta Sororitas and not Adeptus is by looking at how this organisation is a conglomerate of several different sub-divisions, namely the Militant and the Non-Militant Orders split up between the two Main Convents on Terra and Ophelia VII. The gender of a term describing an organisation does not switch depending on whether its members are male or female, it can only change when it is referring to the persons themselves. Unless that, too, is different from how we handle language today.

... I suppose it's definitively something that can be debated further, though the more I think about it, the more I believe it comes down to a matter of opinion and interpretation, for I do not recall any example of the term "adepta" being used at all outside the Sisterhood. At least not by GW (I have seen it elsewhere .. FFG's RPG I think).

KamikazeCanuck wrote:This thread got me thinking if there ever was a time The Abess was a High Lord it could be during the Reign of Blood.

I don't know - back then, the Sisters of Battle were just Vandire's bodyguard rather than a proper organisation with any more duties than being his enforcers. But whether or not Dominica was ever a High Lord or not (I think this would have interfered with her duties) is, I think, not discussed anywhere. We just know that Dominica was not an Abbess, this post was created after her death, and thus long after Vandire's rule.

Either way, the book mentions the Abbess Sanctorum as being from a short list of people who are "usually picked" to fill the three unassigned slots, which to me implies that each of the groups listed must have had this honour more than one time.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:On the other I don't care about this whole clergy within her own organization and gives inspirational speeches stuff. The point at issue is if a Sister be a within the priesthood. Could an SoB be a Bishop? The information you've provided further proves they can not. They are to be apart from it. Servants and also it's police force. I think when they do make violent moves against the clergy it is accepted because they are so respected. They gain this respect by being outside the command structure and aloof.

Exactly. Certainly, a Canoness also plays a political role - but this is not a public one, but rather something that takes place in the shadowy webs of internal powerplay between the various Imperial organisations, including the Inquisition. The Convocation of Nephilim springs to mind. Intentional or not, factions that should not do so will attempt to influence the Adepta Sororitas, and the Adepta Sororitas influence right back at them.

"With members in every aspect of society, the Sisterhood can maintain a close eye on the affairs of the Imperium. The Orders Famulous report on the activities of the Noble Houses, the Orders Dialogous can inform their seniors of the deals and agreements binding the Imperium together and the Orders Hospitaller witness many things unseen outside their wards. All of this makes the Adepta Sororitas a useful political as well as social tool, and with the armed might of the Orders Militant, the Sisterhood has the protection and power it needs to operate successfully."

It's almost nefarious how it spans out like a web, encompassing so many different facets of the Imperium, and each Sister everywhere being sworn first and foremost to her own convent. When you think about it, it is not surprising that the Abbess Sanctorum - the one person where all of this information flows together - is powerful enough to be considered for the position of High Lord, regardless of her organisation's small size - compared to the others. Then again, sometimes even the Captain-General of the Custodes gets a seat, and he has even fewer people under his command. Perhaps the same could be said of the Master of the Officio Assassinorum, though I'm really not sure how many people make up the official Assassin Temples (meaning, not counting those blood cults).

@Lynata: Glad we seem to agree on the role of Sisters of Battle in the Church.

Also, because of your insistance on citing everything I have now seen The High Lord short list in the rulebook with my own eyes and not just on Lexicanum. So I admit at least one Abess must have been a High Lord at one time. Similiar to what I said to Manchu I hope you're a like a research historian in real life or something....not that there's anything wrong with nerd debates.

@Lynata:

HH Book 1 Betrayal p. 16 refers to Mars being separated from its colonies by the warp storms just as Terra was cut off from hers. Page 17 describes the first explorator fleets sent out, colonizing more worlds, during the Age of Strife and before the Unification of Terra. Page 18 says "In return for supplying materials for his armies and building a mighty war fleet for his crusade to the stars, the Emperor promised to protect the sovereignty of their Forge Worlds across the galaxy, affording them a level of independence unequaled within the Imperium."

There was a Martian empire, acknowledged by the Emperor in a treaty, that pre-existed the Unification of Terra and, by that same treaty, was guaranteed its sovereignty even as part of the Imperium.

The Emperor of Terra therefore CANNOT be the Emperor of Mars. Instead, the Emperor is the Omnissiah of Mars. In uniting the two great human empires, the Emperor is the Master of Mankind. That's not his rank (like "boss); that's a description of who he is.

 Lynata wrote:
Morning all!

Whew, the topic moved quite a bit whilst I was out.

Beaviz8 wrote:The Abbess disappeared on a pilgrimage. The Ecclesserial decree was to leave the seat open. So I guess there is some major tension between the Sororitas and the Ecclesary not yet explored due to that fact. But it can also be the law, until the girl is found.

Yes, it's just the law:

"In the centuries following the Age of Apostasy, Saint Dominica led the Adepta Sororitas as founder and overall patron. Her martyrdom at the hands of heretics on Frideswide's World left a great void in the organisation, which experienced a temporary crisis as no leader felt they were able to adequately follow in Dominica's footsteps.

Eventually, Ecclesiarch Equitius XI intervened and ordered the leaders of each Order to elect one of their number to lead. After many weeks debate, the leaders agreed by majority that Sister Palmiro of the Order of the Holy Word was most suited to take up the rank of Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas. However, Sister Palmiro was an exceptionally humble woman and declined to lead, stating that it was her intention to depart on a pilgrimage to San Leor, and that she had no desire for rank and privilege.

After much debate, it was agreed that Sister Palmiro should complete her pilgrimage, but that she would take up the rank of Abbess upon her return, and regard it as a welcome penance. Palmiro agreed to these terms, and after barely a century, the tradition of electing the candidate who least desired the rank of Abbess to the post became commonplace, that she should regard it not as a privilege but as a penance, and that she should untertake a pilgrimage to San Leor before taking up the position.

This tradition was maintained for most of four millennia, until the election of Sister Sabrina of the Order of the Ermine Mantle. Unfortunately, Sabrina disappeared whilst on her pilgrimage and never returned to Terra. The last sighting of Sabrina and her entourage was on the ocean world of Habren IV, and though it is not known whether she fell prey to attack or some other misfortune, the Sisters of the Ermine Mantle have embarked upon at least a dozen missions to locate her.

Until she is found or her fate determined, Ecclesiarchal law dictates that the post of Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas must remain vacant."
- WD #292, Liber Sororitas

So, law dictates that there can be no successor to the post of Abbess until the fate of the last one is determined. Since this means that there literally isn't an Abbess around right now, she cannot become a High Lord as a sort of "side effect".

Although it would be funny if one of the 3 open seats is awarded to the Abbess and she just never shows up because she's still MIA. I could totally see that happen in the goofy IoM. They might even allot "speaker time" for her, during which everyone else just goes to read a book or whispers to their neighbor, unable to have the session progress until the time is up.

Yeah the topic moved on. Hehe.

Ouf when it comes to the Sororitas they are absent their overall leader now, but that has already been explained.

As for speaking-time for the girl, they likely sit in silent contemplation thinking about her instead of the more radical things like whispering to their neighbor or reading a book. The first point there sounds like family-time in the church at x-mas eve, not like how a devout nun should behave during mess. Of course friendships and rivalries are in that midst, and even petty bullying would happen there, but they sure as hell doesn't whisper to each other during mess. Oh you meant for the High Lords. Hahaha. That would actually be fun to think about. I found that Lexicanum states that she is a High Lord hahaha.

The penance-thingy seems to be from a certain pope-election, they elected a guy so wanting not to be pope that he actually fled and had to physically be dragged back to Rome after hiding for over two years as a hermit.

Manchu wrote:HH Book 1 Betrayal p. 16 refers to Mars being separated from its colonies by the warp storms just as Terra was cut off from hers. Page 17 describes the first explorator fleets sent out, colonizing more worlds, during the Age of Strife and before the Unification of Terra. Page 18 says "In return for supplying materials for his armies and building a mighty war fleet for his crusade to the stars, the Emperor promised to protect the sovereignty of their Forge Worlds across the galaxy, affording them a level of independence unequaled within the Imperium."
There was a Martian empire, acknowledged by the Emperor in a treaty, that pre-existed the Unification of Terra and, by that same treaty, was guaranteed its sovereignty even as part of the Imperium.
The Emperor of Terra therefore CANNOT be the Emperor of Mars. Instead, the Emperor is the Omnissiah of Mars. In uniting the two great human empires, the Emperor is the Master of Mankind. That's not his rank (like "boss); that's a description of who he is.

I don't care much what some random author writes in his tie-in novel. We all know that Black Library writes lots of (conflicting) stuff when the day is long. I go by what the studio provides:

"Mars endured long centuries of isolation while anarchy tore at the ancient world of Earth. When the Emperor drew Mars back into the fold of the united Imperium, it had long since become a society very different to that of Earth's. [...] When the Emperor led mankind on the Great Crusade, the Titan Legions of the Adeptus Mechanicus marched alongside the Space Marines. As the Imperium expanded, the Adeptus Mechanicus took many worlds for themselves, planets which they settled and turned into the Mechanicus Forge Worlds."
- Codex Imperialis

Though that is not even of much relevance to what I was saying. Regardless of whether there was or wasn't a Martian Empire back then, it ceased to exist as it became firmly integrated into the Imperium. To say otherwise would be like saying California is its own independent country rather than being a firmly integrated state of the US, subject to what laws are passed in Washington. The Emperor does not need to be an "Emperor of Mars" because he is the Emperor of the Imperium, of which Mars and its Forge Worlds are now a part of, just like the Ministorum and its Shrine Worlds are. And just like the President of the United States does not need to be the President of California. That the Emperor is also the Omnissiah is of not much relevance either, for this is more of a religious role and not one that carries any actual political power firmly attached to it. The AdMech bestowed this title upon him at least in part to justify the continued existence of their faith in the Machine God whilst simultaneously bowing to the Emperor's wishes (but of course also because they realised that Emps is awesome and knows his stuff).

As for the HH books: I admit that picking GW over BL (or vice versa) is an entirely personal choice and that neither of us can be "more right" than the other on this. Since we have little actual canon in 40k, we thus either have to agree upon uniform sources, or "agree to disagree".

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Also, because of your insistance on citing everything I have now seen The High Lord short list in the rulebook with my own eyes and not just on Lexicanum.

There's one other place I found it so far - the old Codex Imperialis. I'm glad GW decided to dig it out again for the 6E BRB, much like they re-posted the old Force Disposition Charts.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:So I admit at least one Abess must have been a High Lord at one time.

I'd say at least two, likely more - the wording makes it sound as if she would not be listed there if it was a one-off, for it does not exclude any other groups in the Imperium, but just makes the ones listed to be likely picks. Which, over the course of more than five millennia, might mean a lot.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Similiar to what I said to Manchu I hope you're a like a research historian in real life or something....not that there's anything wrong with nerd debates.

Hahah, I wish! No, although I also love to read about real life history and could have even imagined such a career. But hey, at least I'm still getting paid (better) to write stuff, and working with words is something I like as well.

Beaviz81 wrote:The penance-thingy seems to be from a certain pope-election, they elected a guy so wanting not to be pope that he actually fled and had to physically be dragged back to Rome after hiding for over two years as a hermit.

That I did not know - but I had a feeling it was a reference to something like that. Thanks for sharing.

I must agree with Manchu on this one. As I understand it there was a Martian Empire. Most Forge Worlds predate the Imperium. I believe during the warp storms that crippled the galaxy they simply "hunkered down" and waited it out. Because what makes them Mechanicum is being a methodical non-changing people they weathered it better than everyone else. When The Emperor emerged as a firm ally of Mars he was able to absorb the old Martian empire without much trouble because he had Mars's approval complete with actual Martians at it's helm.
The incredible amount of firepower that prexisting empire of thousands of Forge Worlds provided him helped him conquer a million planets in just 300 years.

Your California analogy is just silly. Once again the UK is a better analogy. The Monarch of The United Kingdoms is the Monarch of both England and Scotland. The Emperor is the monarch of The Terran and Martian Empires which combined is The Imperium.

The Mechanicus is changing, but slowly through tested method KC. The quest for knowledge trumps all other considerations. Just like Weyland-Yutani, but with religious sprinkling. That's how I regard the AdMech. They are a bunch of Josef Stalins. And worse they are in control of the technology of the IOM. The only thing worse would be the Men of Iron in such a case. Even more technological inclined, and with even less regard for human life. They would basically use math to calculate your value on the spot, and if the value dropped beneath a certain point, you would just be killed.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The Mechanicus is changing, but slowly through tested method KC. The quest for knowledge trumps all other considerations. Just like Weyland-Yutani, but with religious sprinkling. That's how I regard the AdMech. They are a bunch of Josef Stalins. And worse they are in control of the technology of the IOM. The only thing worse would be the Men of Iron in such a case. Even more technological inclined, and with even less regard for human life. They would basically use math to calculate your value on the spot, and if the value dropped beneath a certain point, you would just be killed.

Yes, they made tiny itty bity changes over 15,000 years of existence. Basically nothing. That's what I mean, their Machine-like demeanor helped them survive the isolation of the Warp Storms.

And they don't have a sprinkling of religion. They're massively religious. That's why communist- atheist Stalin isn't a good analogy. I'm not aware of examples of techpriests being eliminated for not being useful either.

Stalin for me is an analogy for ruthless but efficient. That is my point. Ruthless efficiency, and that's a Tech Priest in my mind. The Men of Iron was massively worse than the Tech Priests because they calculate your worth on the spot and if they find you wanting, you are simply dead. That's how I see them. You read things with too little imagination KC.

Or too much. I'll agree The Mechanicum can be ruthless and even efficient sometimes.