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LValx wrote:
@jy2

If I had the funds and time I'd bring a better list but this is small and quick to build so I settled. The three characters are essential to how I play the unit. They sit at the edges of the formation allowing me to always LoS, after save (this is why same save is essential, so no on the PA inquisitor) on a 2+. It makes the unit extremely durable. The grenades also make the unit near unchargeable, i've tried without and prefer to take them personally. I don't care for MSS or the Orb. Points are tight as is. So far the wraiths havent been an issue at 5 man. There is little sway on points for this list, unfortunately. However, its performed for me and I feel comfortable with it. Hopefully opponents look at it as unbalanced too!


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And I didnt mean for that to be harsh, the nature of a Draigo list is that it is top heavy. And its somewhat poor criticism to simply point that out. I'm pretty happy that ive managed to fit 3 flyers, wraiths and 3 small troops into the list. Compare that to Blackmoors list, his had even less targets.

No worries. I didn't feel your tone harsh at all.

I think your list is a very good one. You can't go wrong by allying necrons and their flyers to almost any list. They especially work well with paladins as they address 2 major issues - mobility and the ability to threaten more targets, including other flyers. There definitely is some good chemistry here.

However, I think the list could be optimized even further. Some slight "tweaks" can mean the difference between a very good list and one that can potentially win the tournament.

But if you like the list the way it is and have been having success with it, then by all means play with what you got and know. Deathstars definitely are a good tournament army because in most cases, they match up well against the majority of armies out there. I myself almost lost to a deathstar list that I thought I should have easily beat in a recent GT. The only thing you will struggle against is against a player who understands how deathstars work and who brought a balanced enough army that can deal with them.




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 sudojoe wrote:
Incidentially, here's a sample of my current cron+gk list. It's still a work in progress and would like some creative feedback on it if possible. It's essentially what I've come down to after messing with crowe lists since 6th launch.

Destroyer lord with MSS + weave (couldn't afford res orb at 1500)
wraiths x6 (no upgrades)

5 man warrior squad x2

Crowe

Purifiers x10 man (4 psycannons, 1 hammer, 5 halberds) (can be combat squadded - hammer is on a squad member, the justicar has a halberd)
(can ride in the SR or hide in buildings or have crowe ride the SR himself)

Storm raven (SR) (MM + LC (or Assault cannon but couldn't afford psybolts)

Doomscythes x2

*this is heavily a work in progress and I'm just trying different things and is in no way a competitive build just yet or at least I haven't tested it as such*

Honestly, I don't see this list working so well against an experienced general with a balanced army. The problem here is the 2 foot warrior squads. They just don't have the mobility to get to the objectives if your opponent focuses on them. The purifiers are a huge target and will receive the brunt of the offense (well, them and the doomscythes....and wraiths). And because they will most likely be on foot (put them in the raven and that's 4 wasted psycannons for a few turns), they will have problems getting to objectives as well. The list will do well in casual play (that's 3 flyers and wraiths!) but in competitive play, I feel that it is slightly lacking in depth.

What I recommend is to get at least 1 night scythe to give your warriors a little more mobility. Better yet, drop 1 doom scythe (+ maybe 1 wraith) and get 2 night scythes instead. Doom scythes are good but they are still just a support unit. Night scythes are essential to protect your troops and get them to where they are needed. They give your list another flyer (4 flyers), more firepower in the form of TL-tesla destructors and better protection and mobility for your most essential units - your troops.

Just my humble opinion on how to make your army just a little more balanced.

BTW, I like your idea of St. Celestine + Jessica Thawn. Too bad you can't ally some ResOrb necron lords to that combo. Lol.




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 Grey Templar wrote:
I think Paladinstars arn't very competitive at all. This is due to the fact that most missions are objective based, and there are usually 4+ of them. Not to mention you can only hold one objective at a time now.

Because of this, and the inherent footsloggin nature of a Paladinstar, they will rarely be able to hold more then one or 2 objectives.

This, combined with the relativly short range of their guns, means that they cannot really contest the other objectives to get the win. The enemy just needs to ignore them, take the other 3 objectives, and then wait for the game to end.

The only reason a Paladin list wins an objective mission is if the opponent is dumb enough to actually engage the Paladins, and then the obvious happens and the enemy gets annhilated.

I think that Draigowing can definitely be competitive. The key is to surround them with enough support units which addresses some of there shortcomings.

With the advent of allies, they've actually become much better than before. Ally some necron allies and they are even better than they were last edition. Mobility, firepower, ability to threaten more targets now and resiliency of said support units....Draigowing can do this much better than they used to be able to thanks to allied air support. There's a reason why necrons are probably the best army right now and you really can't lose by adding their strengths to your army. Honestly, the new Draigowing has surpass even that of Blackmoor's Draigowing, though winning with them still depends on the skill of the general.

I really love running all Paladins and Draigo for my troops, along with a 10 man deathstar... but doing it in 1500 points? damn

The strike squad I took tonight in a Razorback performed reasonably well at holding close objectives while my 5 man Draigo-star marched on more difficult ones.

I guess I could have just taken 2 Paladins instead tho and ran them (no psycannon though).

Dorksim wrote:

Coteaz

10 Purifiers w/4 Psycannons

3 Servitors w/Plasma Cannons
Chimera

5 Strikes w/Psycannon
Razorback
Psybolt

5 Strikes w/Psycannon
Razorback
Psybolt

5 Strikes w/Psycannon
Razorback
Psybolt

5 Strikes w/Psycannon
Razorback
Psybolt

5 Strikes w/Psycannon
Razorback
Psybolt

Psyfleman Dread

Psyfleman Dread

Psyfleman Dread

Kinda spammy, but what can you do. I am not married to the Servitors, but quite frankly I am not sure what else I should bring for those points.

I have also been considering dropping Coteaz in favor of a couple Xenos inquisitors to bring some Servo Skulls and to make sure the servitors don't mind lock, possibly even allowing me to bring some Acolytes in that squad to hopefully survive long enough to take a home objective.

Thoughts?

Not a bad list. MSU is still competitive in this edition even though vehicles have been nerfed somewhat.

However, I'd dump the plasma servitors and here's why:

- Cannot move and fire those plasma cannons (cannot fire blasts in snapshot mode)

- Cannot use Coteaz's I've Been Expecting You from within a vehicle to fire those plasma cannons. They have to be on foot.


Instead, I'd rather break up that purifier unit into:


5x Purifers - 2x Psycannons (+ halberds if you have the points), Rhino

5x Purifers - 2x Psycannons (+ halberds if you have the points), Rhino

It's all good Jy2.

I certainly know the dangers of playing a deathstar army. But I find enjoyment in playing elite armies, as opposed to more balanced shooting based lists.

If I had to run a TAC list (which I don't actually think is fully possible with the truly BROKEN Flyer mechanic) I would run this at 2K:

Coteaz 100
Rune Priest Jaws/Living Lightning 100
5 WG 4 Combi-melta, 1 TDA w/ Cyclone 155
10 Purifier Squad 4 Psycannon, 2 Hammer, Razorback w/ Psybolts, SL 341
5 Grey Hunters Melta, Rhino 115
5 Grey Hunters Melta, Rhino 115
5 Grey Hunters Melta, Rhino 115
5 Grey Hunters Melta, Rhino 115
10 Strikes 2 Psycannon, 1 Razorback w/ Psybolts 270
5 Strikes 1 Psycannon, 1 Razorback w/ Psybolts, SL 161
5 Purgation Squad 2 Psycannon, 2 Incinerator, Razorback w/ Psybolts 190
5 Long Fangs 4 Missiles 115
Aegis Defence Line Quadgun 100
1992

It doesn't have a large volume of long-range firepower, however, it floods the midfield with MEQs and has weight of fire to help with fliers. With that many bodies you should also be able to restrict flyer movement. I also think 7-10 troops choices is ideal for MEQs. But, that is just one man's opinion.


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I think people have to re-evalute how they run GK. Over-reliance on cheap henchmen no longer works as well. I also don't think 30 MEQ's is enough to compete. With reduced cover and easier to kill vehicles I find it pretty important to field more infantry than before.

LValx wrote:
I think people have to re-evalute how they run GK. Over-reliance on cheap henchmen no longer works as well. I also don't think 30 MEQ's is enough to compete. With reduced cover and easier to kill vehicles I find it pretty important to field more infantry than before.

Yeah, the meta has definitely changed. MSU mech is still competitive. However, it's those builds with just a few transports - maybe 2-4 - that may have problems. I foresee either fully meched or a shift to more infantry-based armies with little to no mech. This is what I am thinking of trying out next. It's more of a fun list to me, but I think it's got the tools to hang with many of the more competitive lists out there. Basically, I am interested in running a horde GK army with little to no allies in my "fun" list.

At 1500:

Coteaz

10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer - 250
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer

Psyfleman - 135
Psyfleman

Aegis Defense Line - Quad-guns - 100

1470


At 2K:

Coteaz
Librarian - 3x Powers

10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer - 250
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt - 240
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt

Psyfleman - 135
Psyfleman
Psyfleman

Aegis Defense Line - Quad-guns - 100

2000

or

Coteaz

10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer - 250
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt - 240
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt
7x Strikers - 1x Psycannon, Psybolt - 170

Psyfleman - 135
Psyfleman
Psyfleman

Aegis Defense Line - Quad-guns - 100

1995

Honestly, I don't see this list working so well against an experienced general with a balanced army. The problem here is the 2 foot warrior squads. They just don't have the mobility to get to the objectives if your opponent focuses on them. The purifiers are a huge target and will receive the brunt of the offense (well, them and the doomscythes....and wraiths). And because they will most likely be on foot (put them in the raven and that's 4 wasted psycannons for a few turns), they will have problems getting to objectives as well. The list will do well in casual play (that's 3 flyers and wraiths!) but in competitive play, I feel that it is slightly lacking in depth.

What I recommend is to get at least 1 night scythe to give your warriors a little more mobility. Better yet, drop 1 doom scythe (+ maybe 1 wraith) and get 2 night scythes instead. Doom scythes are good but they are still just a support unit. Night scythes are essential to protect your troops and get them to where they are needed. They give your list another flyer (4 flyers), more firepower in the form of TL-tesla destructors and better protection and mobility for your most essential units - your troops.

Just my humble opinion on how to make your army just a little more balanced.

BTW, I like your idea of St. Celestine + Jessica Thawn. Too bad you can't ally some ResOrb necron lords to that combo. Lol.

LOL ty, I'm waiting till the new sisters come out in 2013 to really build that army. I'm *gulp* subbing in a daemon princess as st. celestine for now and using my AOBR marines as sisters <_<

I like your ideas for the dooms/night scythes. I deliberately chopped the extra night scythes out because it was actually *too competitive* i.e. friends won't play me lol. With just 3 fliers, they maybe more accomondidating but I totally agree with you on competitive build for that list. I just wish I can cram in a rhino somewhere. Maybe drop a wraith or maybe change one of the dooms into an annhiliation barge and toss in a rhino instead?

LValx wrote:
Meh. You have to keep in mind, I do run support. My support will generally also alphastrike opponents. Not to mention the fact that Wraiths are also extremely durable and destructive for their points. I've played against lists with high volumes of Str. 8 and put them down pretty easily. The big thing is LoS. Its incredibly abusable.

Would you elaborate your specific tactics using LoS with your Paladins mitigating the "high volumes of Str. 8". I am very interested as most of this thread is banter and has nothing to with tactics. Your claim may have promise.

jy2 wrote:Mobility, firepower, ability to threaten more targets now and resiliency of said support units....Draigowing can do this much better than they used to be able to thanks to allied air support.

That's certainly something I'll be thinking about after this coming tournament is done; re-evaluating the list to build around the Paladins themselves, as they have certainly shown their star power in all my games so far, probably most so last night, dealing with Logan, 4 TH/SS Wolf Guard and a pack of Grey Hunters in that game. Better deployment could have seen them do a lot more, but they made their points back.

I love Draigo - I use him in a lot of my lists. I own twenty paladins - they are sitting on the shelf. Honestly, GKSS are simply better than paladins or terminators. I can get thirty GKSS with six psycannons for a paladin squad with two osycannons. I would rather walk my GKSS.

What is with the Aegis Defense Line in a GK list. I would be taking psyfledreads over an AGL all day long. Every game I've played against AGL it has done nothing against my lists. If I need to one round of shooting from MLs or some melta shots will solve the problem it represents. It just does not do enough in a GK list, Use the 100 points for some henchmen in your elite slot and add in the cost of the hammers which you don't need. Then you can have a real cc squad of DCA and crusaders.

 felixcat wrote:

I love Draigo - I use him in a lot of my lists. I own twenty paladins - they are sitting on the shelf. Honestly, GKSS are simply better than paladins or terminators. I can get thirty GKSS with six psycannons for a paladin squad with two osycannons. I would rather walk my GKSS.

What is with the Aegis Defense Line in a GK list. I would be taking psyfledreads over an AGL all day long. Every game I've played against AGL it has done nothing against my lists. If I need to one round of shooting from MLs or some melta shots will solve the problem it represents. It just does not do enough in a GK list, Use the 100 points for some henchmen in your elite slot and add in the cost of the hammers which you don't need. Then you can have a real cc squad of DCA and crusaders.

It has seemed to me that 3+ armor save models tend to die a lot easier than 2+ armor save models. I certainly wouldn't say they are 'simply better'.

The Quadgun should be able to alpha strike a flyer and hopefully cause at least a jink. Psyflemen average less than 2 hits on a flyer, Quadgun averages close to 4. In what way exactly is a Psyfleman better anti-air? Hell, it also costs more and doesn't provide army-wide utility (I hear 4+ cover is pretty good).

I keep my Paladins alive by running Draigo at the very front, the most protruded model in the unit. I keep the techmarine and Coteaz on either side of him, a couple inches out to the side and a quarter inch or so further back than Draigo. I keep the Paladins behind all the independent characters. This means that when you shoot the Paladins, unless you shoot from behind, I will be able to LoS on a 2+ all the time. And since my whole unit has a 2+ save, I can always choose to LoS after I take my save. Basically, in 5th edition if I took 3 Meltagun wounds, I could allocate 1 to Draigo and 2 had to hit the squad. Now Draigo constantly takes those saves and places the high Str wounds on already wounded models. This prevents me from ever being "doubled out."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
just an add-on to what I just said.

Str. 8 doesn't come in that many forms. Missiles are easily ignored by Paladins. As are Psyflemen. Lascannons are very pricey on almost anything that isn't a Vendetta and you still shouldnt expect to take many wounds. Meltaguns must be within 12" which is suicide for any unit willing to do it. Blasts can hurt but that is what my Flyer support is for. It generally comes in and alpha strikes the thing(s) that are most dangerous for the Paladins.

LValx wrote:
The Quadgun should be able to alpha strike a flyer and hopefully cause at least a jink. Psyflemen average less than 2 hits on a flyer, Quadgun averages close to 4. In what way exactly is a Psyfleman better anti-air? Hell, it also costs more and doesn't provide army-wide utility (I hear 4+ cover is pretty good).

I keep my Paladins alive by running Draigo at the very front, the most protruded model in the unit. I keep the techmarine and Coteaz on either side of him, a couple inches out to the side and a quarter inch or so further back than Draigo. I keep the Paladins behind all the independent characters. This means that when you shoot the Paladins, unless you shoot from behind, I will be able to LoS on a 2+ all the time. And since my whole unit has a 2+ save, I can always choose to LoS after I take my save. Basically, in 5th edition if I took 3 Meltagun wounds, I could allocate 1 to Draigo and 2 had to hit the squad. Now Draigo constantly takes those saves and places the high Str wounds on already wounded models. This prevents me from ever being "doubled out."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
just an add-on to what I just said.

Str. 8 doesn't come in that many forms. Missiles are easily ignored by Paladins. As are Psyflemen. Lascannons are very pricey on almost anything that isn't a Vendetta and you still shouldnt expect to take many wounds. Meltaguns must be within 12" which is suicide for any unit willing to do it. Blasts can hurt but that is what my Flyer support is for. It generally comes in and alpha strikes the thing(s) that are most dangerous for the Paladins.

I actually believe if you LoS a wound from a Paladin to Draigo, its a 4+; because its a Character making the LoS, it doesn't matter that it is going to an IC. When Draigo LoSs to a Paladin, its a 2+.

The Paladins are apparently more ready to step in and take a shot to the chest than Draigo is for them

 jy2 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think Paladinstars arn't very competitive at all. This is due to the fact that most missions are objective based, and there are usually 4+ of them. Not to mention you can only hold one objective at a time now.

Because of this, and the inherent footsloggin nature of a Paladinstar, they will rarely be able to hold more then one or 2 objectives.

This, combined with the relativly short range of their guns, means that they cannot really contest the other objectives to get the win. The enemy just needs to ignore them, take the other 3 objectives, and then wait for the game to end.

The only reason a Paladin list wins an objective mission is if the opponent is dumb enough to actually engage the Paladins, and then the obvious happens and the enemy gets annhilated.

I think that Draigowing can definitely be competitive. The key is to surround them with enough support units which addresses some of there shortcomings.

With the advent of allies, they've actually become much better than before. Ally some necron allies and they are even better than they were last edition. Mobility, firepower, ability to threaten more targets now and resiliency of said support units....Draigowing can do this much better than they used to be able to thanks to allied air support. There's a reason why necrons are probably the best army right now and you really can't lose by adding their strengths to your army. Honestly, the new Draigowing has surpass even that of Blackmoor's Draigowing, though winning with them still depends on the skill of the general.

Thats the main issue.

Yes they can be great with proper support. The trouble is fitting that support in. If the game is below 2k you're going to have trouble with that.

 felixcat wrote:

I love Draigo - I use him in a lot of my lists. I own twenty paladins - they are sitting on the shelf. Honestly, GKSS are simply better than paladins or terminators. I can get thirty GKSS with six psycannons for a paladin squad with two osycannons.

Blanket statement with little support, and a statement that based on the discussions of the last weeks, just about everyone here would disagree with. The only evidence you've given so far if that Strikes get more Psycannons, but Psycannons alone don't make it a better choice, and more overall, damage in shooting overall doesn't make it a better choice. The game is about more than brute force, and even then, the Paladins do serious damage in all phases, not just one, and can do it more reliably as they can stand in the middle of the field and take the hits while those Strikes can't.

BTW, the most important thing here is your mistake with the math in this instance; 5 Paladins with two Psycannons is 315pts, 30 Strikes with 6 Psycannons is 660pts.

Hey Guys,

Love the Paladin discussion since I use them and terminators all the time. However, how does an AV2 army handle a blood angels list or any SM list that fields three vindis? I just can't seem to kill them fast enough before they move 12 in and then drop 3 S10 pie plates on all my AV2 guys.

It's difficult, but then again that's why it's best not to load your army out on such units. One unit of Paladins is enough, preferably with Draigo to score. Fill out the rest with a more rounded army that, as jy2 pointed out earlier, handles the weaknesses of the Paladins.

You know a bastion is not 100 points. You need a squad that can fire the guns which mneans they cannot fire at something else. Take this example ..

Icarus Laser:
18.5% chance of downing AV10
14.8% chance of downing AV11
11.1% chance of downing AV12

Psyfleman Dread:
17.5% chance of downing AV10
12.4% chance of downing AV11
7.8% chance of downing AV12

Single Broadside:
15.2% chance of downing AV10
12.7% chance of downing AV11
10.2% chance of downing AV12

I'll take my flexible psyfledread. Or even a russ as an allied heavy. My buiggest problem with bastions is that flyers come on turn two. That leaves my opponent aturn to deal with the bastion and they are not impervious - melta, lots of mls, lascannons ...

BTW, the most important thing here is your mistake with the math in this instance; 5 Paladins with two Psycannons is 315pts, 30 Strikes with 6 Psycannons is 660pts

My apologies. I'm no authority and the math is off. Here are my thoughts though ...

So 10 paladins w/ 4 psycannons. Still it is ten bodies. I prefer thirty with thirty percent more dakka. I don't think paladins are awful. It did kind of sound that way. I have played draigowing through 5ed. Even then my GKSS lists were overall better for me - i stress for me here. . I don't mind a small squad of five ... I get that. I just prefer running without them though. They are a distraction and annoying and hard as nails but when the vindicator shot hits ... that has been my experience in 6ed. The GKSS are marines that have all the good grenades and plenty of dakka. I love my psycannons ... I don't dsee any fault in them as long as you have some support.

That said ... I'm sure there are ways to make them work better than my experiences with them.

 felixcat wrote:
You know a bastion is not 100 points.

Not sure who this is in reply to, as it doesn't match to any of the other posts above that I can see, but if someone refered to a Quad Gun for 100pts, it's because they were talking about the Aegis Defence Line, and not a Bastion, because quite frankly, the Aegis Line is both better and cheaper.

 felixcat wrote:
So 10 paladins w/ 4 psycannons. Still it is ten bodies. I prefer thirty with thirty percent more dakka. I don't think paladins are awful. It did kind of sound that way. I have played draigowing through 5ed. Even then my GKSS lists were overall better for me

And there's the crux of the matter, and IMO the key element to why this argument is flawed; that's in 5th edition. In 5th edition Strikes were miles better than Paladins as for Paladins to work you had to go all out and buy specific gear for each guy etc., while also making sure that the rest of the army could still handle to tens of tanks that were in most armies. Things have changed a lot now however, and this is no longer the case.

Now the Paladins are more durable, don't have to worry about mech SPAM ruining their day, are much cheaper to build on average, and in contrast to those Strikes, can put out their 24" hurt a lot more reliably, as they can stand in the middle of the field and laugh. Those Strikes might have 30 wounds, but those Paladins have 20 wounds still and a save that mitigates 16% more damage than that of the Strikes. It takes 12 wounds to kill one Paladin (though LOS makes this sticky), and only 3 wounds to kill one Strike. So that's 120 wounds to kill the 10 Paladins, and 90 wounds to kill the Strikes. This is for AP4, 5, 6, and - of course. At AP3 the Paladins get even better. At AP1-2, they are the exact same, needing 30 wounds each for wipe out.

I use a cheapo rhino with a storm bolter to shoot my quad gun. BS 4 still and unlikely to be in range of much else or can be fired at BS2 auto fire I suppose. Objective camping units can also take advantage of the quad gun. It's quite flexible.

LValx wrote:
The Quadgun should be able to alpha strike a flyer and hopefully cause at least a jink. Psyflemen average less than 2 hits on a flyer, Quadgun averages close to 4. In what way exactly is a Psyfleman better anti-air? Hell, it also costs more and doesn't provide army-wide utility (I hear 4+ cover is pretty good).

I keep my Paladins alive by running Draigo at the very front, the most protruded model in the unit. I keep the techmarine and Coteaz on either side of him, a couple inches out to the side and a quarter inch or so further back than Draigo. I keep the Paladins behind all the independent characters. This means that when you shoot the Paladins, unless you shoot from behind, I will be able to LoS on a 2+ all the time. And since my whole unit has a 2+ save, I can always choose to LoS after I take my save. Basically, in 5th edition if I took 3 Meltagun wounds, I could allocate 1 to Draigo and 2 had to hit the squad. Now Draigo constantly takes those saves and places the high Str wounds on already wounded models. This prevents me from ever being "doubled out."

Unless I totally misread the rules myself (which I didn't) you cannot LOS the wound after taking the save with draigo. You have to LOS before deciding which model takes the save. You only LOS after rolling to wound, if the whole unit has the same saves. Doing it after taking a save with draigo in a paladin squad is just shy of dastardly, imo

Coyote wrote:Unless I totally misread the rules myself (which I didn't) you cannot LOS the wound after taking the save with draigo. You have to LOS before deciding which model takes the save. You only LOS after rolling to wound, if the whole unit has the same saves. Doing it after taking a save with draigo in a paladin squad is just shy of dastardly, imo

The unit does have the same save mate.

The unit does have the same save mate.

Draogo has a 3+ inv and paladins a 5+ inv or am reading this incorrectly? Thus any wound that is AP2 or lower would be allocated after saves, no? So plasma , starcannon, melta, las, etc., cannot be allocated after saves.

The Quadgun should be able to alpha strike a flyer and hopefully cause at least a jink.

Possibly. But flyers come on turn two. The quad is not that hard to take out turn one with lists spamming str 8+. Which flyer lists should do. And the quad is not too good against anything but flyers. I would use one in a non-GK list.

On another note - I would be well pleased trading ten paladins for twenty GKSS w/ 4 psycannons ... I'll throw in a techmarine and vindicare too and if you have a wraithlord w/ sword and shuricannon and an Avatar I'll are trade my quad autocannoin AGL. I'm not convinced I need them in my list at all.

just wondering how Flyer lists spam strength 8? Or even low AP?

Necrons have hardly any long ranged strength 8. Most of their weaponry is midrange.

DE have some long range strength 8 but not reliable if they trade Ravagers for flyers.

Guard dont have a way to spam str 8 in the heavy, they really just have blasts.

Only MEQ Flyer lists can spam str 8. And they can't really spam flyers.

Guard can put tons of missile launchers on the table for really cheap.

The same for DE with Dark Lances.

 felixcat wrote:

The unit does have the same save mate.

Draogo has a 3+ inv and paladins a 5+ inv or am reading this incorrectly? Thus any wound that is AP2 or lower would be allocated after saves, no? So plasma , starcannon, melta, las, etc., cannot be allocated after saves.

Yes but this is only for AP2 wounds (and AP1 of course). Otherwise they have the same save and you can throw out the LOS after saves. Still, I find it moot, as I would rather take as much as possible on Draigo without killing him anyway; I mean, it takes 12 AP1 or AP2 wounds to kill him, and 24 of any other AP. On average of course.

furbyballer wrote:
Hey Guys,

Love the Paladin discussion since I use them and terminators all the time. However, how does an AV2 army handle a blood angels list or any SM list that fields three vindis? I just can't seem to kill them fast enough before they move 12 in and then drop 3 S10 pie plates on all my AV2 guys.

Take some Telepathy on a libby. :] Why kill his tanks if you can make them shoot his own stuff?

Brometheus wrote:

furbyballer wrote:Hey Guys,

Love the Paladin discussion since I use them and terminators all the time. However, how does an AV2 army handle a blood angels list or any SM list that fields three vindis? I just can't seem to kill them fast enough before they move 12 in and then drop 3 S10 pie plates on all my AV2 guys.

Take some Telepathy on a libby. :] Why kill his tanks if you can make them shoot his own stuff?

That's assuming he rolls the right power.

Conversely, Telepathy is the discipline with Objectus Mechanum right?

I don't even wanna hear about them not being able to get Hallucination or Puppet Master with as many rolls as a GK Libby can get, my friend.

Objuration Mechanicum is in Telekinesis. Do GK even have access to that? Not being a smartass, at all. I have no idea!

Besides, let's face it. If you don't have Halluc/Puppet, you probably have Invisibility. Win! Why fight tanks if you can laugh at them.

Libby can get 3 rolls max. And that's for 200pts. And even then, he can only stop one of the Vindicators a turn.

 Brometheus wrote:
I don't even wanna hear about them not being able to get Hallucination or Puppet Master with as many rolls as a GK Libby can get, my friend.

Objuration Mechanicum is in Telekinesis. Do GK even have access to that? Not being a smartass, at all. I have no idea!

Besides, let's face it. If you don't have Halluc/Puppet, you probably have Invisibility. Win! Why fight tanks if you can laugh at them.

GKs do have Telekinesis. They don't have Telepathy.