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 Grey Templar wrote:
I think if the Titansword is to remain AP3, they should at least say its a real Nemisis Force Sword and allow Draigo a 2+ invuln in melee.

"My name is Draigo Tarpit, King of Kings! Look upon my save, ye mighty, and despair!"

 schadenfreude wrote:
Guess what...the unit still has 2 wounds per model. That's a very effective defense against volume of attacks (just ask TH/SS players how effective that is) and an effective defense against plasma (it takes 3 plasma wounds to drop 1 paladin with a 5+ invo). Paladins are still an effective unit with solid melee and shooting ability what is it 8 psycannons on the move with 2 rerolls to hit per 325 points?

Well, yeah. But you pay for those extra wounds. Through the nose. I can get just as many wounds, twice as many stormbolter shots, and twice as many psycannon shots, for 10 points more if I take Purifiers. And I can then take a Razorback for another 45 points.

Paladins were a competitive choice pre FAQ. They were never a no-brainer and their cost fairly accurately matched their ability. Now they are simply too expensive. Yeah, they're good. But other units are just as good or better, for less points.

 Dunwich wrote:
RE: Draigo and his Titansword.
I think it is appropriate. He is the anvil, not the hammer. Besides, it's not like he needs AP2 for fighting Daemons, which fluff dictates are his usual enemies.

Ok, then let it be a Nemesis Sword, not a psychic sword. Khorne gets 2++ against it, isn't it? Where is the fluff god now?

I don't think there is any doubt that they took a nerf, but you have to move them differently. You'd basically have to have draigo in front, in base to base contact with three "redshirts" behind him. Everytime one of them dies, you move another one up to keep a 6 point wound pool of Paladins that aren't essential behind him. The formation might be a bit more wonky and slender, but I'm going to give it a go at our GT here.

 Stoffer wrote:
I don't think there is any doubt that they took a nerf, but you have to move them differently. You'd basically have to have draigo in front, in base to base contact with three "redshirts" behind him. Everytime one of them dies, you move another one up to keep a 6 point wound pool of Paladins that aren't essential behind him. The formation might be a bit more wonky and slender, but I'm going to give it a go at our GT here.

Have fun eating blast templates with that formation.

Ah hell, that was a bit snappy. I'm sorry. I'm just pissed off about the whole affair.

I'm thankful my list was barely scratched - other than Draigo's titansword. I actually got in a match against Daemons with it ...

-Do the Monster Mash-
HQ: 1 Lord Kaldor Draigo, 275 (GK)
HQ: 1 Malleus Inquisitor (TDA. Psycannon, Prescience) 110 GK
HQ: 1 Avatar of Khaine 155 (EL)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 15 Storm Guardians (2 Flamers, Spiritseer, Conceal, Singing Spear) 173 (EL)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Dreadnought (Dual TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition) 135
Heavy Support: 1 Wraithlord (2 Flamer, Wraithsword, Shuricannon) 110 (EL)
-1998-

Unfortunately, I ended up going second (you cannot cast warp quake first turn) and had a few problems with Fateweaver ... I got him down to his last wound ... and lost 10-6. Even with the boosts we get against daemons 20 screamers and twenty flamers, Fateweaver and a LoC are very tough. The match could have gone either way ... it ended a turn earlier than I wanted to secure a win. My opponent also got his prefered wave and pretty much alpha struck two of my GKSS squads ... that hurt a lot as they are my only flyer defense other than the dreadnought. He was pretty canny and knew what to do.

schadenfreude wrote:
Is a single paladin a menace to most units? Well let's define most.

If it has an AV value but doesn't have a DCCW then yes. That's pretty much everything except a standard dreadnought including the BA Cuisinart.
Is it a troops choice? If the answer is yes then most troops can't handle a single paladin, especially now that sergeants with a power fist have gone out of style. Some troops have melta, but even the dreaded melta vets only have a 15/54 (27.7%) chance of killing the paladin with 3 snap fired melta guns. 1/6 to hit* 5/6 to wound *2/3 to fail armor save = 10/108=5/54 then*3shots=15/54= 27.7%. It's less than 10% per melta gun. Sure 3 melta guns can melt 1 paladin out in the open, but they are should be focused on the main squad of paladins.

Is it a non AV heavy support choice? Long fangs, lootas, dev squads, TFC all dead.

For 55 points a single paladin is a mean unit to deepstrike into an opponent's backfield.

You realize the Paladin can't charge from deep strike right? Disregarding the fact that all these units can just move away from the Paladin while shooting him to death and he'd need some unlikely charge length or a really lucky deep strike scatter to do anything about that, he most likely just won't survive the turn he drops in. Like the three meltaguns you describe... why on earth are you calculating them as overwatch snapshots. They get those too if he ever manages to charge, but first the Paladin drops in and they get a proper round of shooting at him before he attempts to trounce them in combat.

The only way I see this having merit at all is if the Paladin's Holocaust would do serious damage to some horde unit, otherwise you're just throwing 55 points away to make an opponent waste a turn or two of shooting and maybe move a little.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Stoffer wrote:
I don't think there is any doubt that they took a nerf, but you have to move them differently. You'd basically have to have draigo in front, in base to base contact with three "redshirts" behind him. Everytime one of them dies, you move another one up to keep a 6 point wound pool of Paladins that aren't essential behind him. The formation might be a bit more wonky and slender, but I'm going to give it a go at our GT here.

Have fun eating blast templates with that formation.

Ah hell, that was a bit snappy. I'm sorry. I'm just pissed off about the whole affair.

Yeah, templates and units quick enough to flank them with low ap weaponry would be the issue. It's not all template weapons though, a lot of our guard players use Russes for example and they'd still be firing heads on. To be fair though, that was a weakness before too, as moving ALL the wounds around on 4+s should really only be reliable half of the time. But yeah, definitely a weakness, no argument there.

Single paladins worked okay as an adjunct to Draigo plus a big unit: they were decent objective-lurkers in ones' own deployment zone and could be deep struck or outflanked (via grand-strategy) to harass the enemy when their main attention was focussed on the enormous mob of characters chewing their way up the board. If they were assaulted or got an assault in (which I found reasonably common later in the game if they were near an objective) then they could tie up an enemy unit via challenge, or at least remove the likeliest greatest threat to them (the squad leader). Holocaust was sometimes pretty good too against the likes of melta-veterans. But if you're running Strike Squads or Purifiers as the backbone, I can't really see any special merit in them.

They could still be okay now situationally, but the main reason for them was that at 55 points they were a relatively cheap way of adding troops. If you're not running paladins as

Going to try this next game

Draigo
Coteaz
5 Paladins, Banner + Apo
1 Paladin (for deepstriking goodness)
Dreadknight w/ Tele, Incin, Sword
Dreadknight w/ Tele, Incin, Sword
Psyrifle Dread

madness, I know. But after seeing how little my Strike squad and their Razorback accomplished in the tournament, I think I'll chance it

I love Dreadknights, but I can't stand them without the teleporter pack. Especially with hammer and anvil deployment when your opponent hugs the back of their table edge

moving ALL the wounds around on 4+s should really only be reliable half of the time.

But you could keep the models far enough apart only one or two would be clipped by any one small blast and then still have a 50% chance of shunting the wound to any other model.

Now with the 'three man touching Draigo' system rather than one or two for Draigo to take or to get LOS!'d, there'll be 4. So it's twice as bad.

And if they got shot from an angle where Draigo wasn't closest, he could still LOS! ID hits on 4+ for his squad. No more. Now it's a 5+ invun rather than half the time being a 3+ and 5+ FNP. Much worse.

Not that I'm really moaning (though I do thing removing character status has hurt paladins a lot and enough to make them at best semi-competitive), the 40K rules regularly degrade certain choices and people always complain -- I think here though it's the startling shift between the pre FAQ rules making paladins a sound choice to post FAQ making them a questionable one, and that very very soon after the change from 5th to 6th that had itself required a little mental adjustment (though not in a bad way by any means). Unexpected negative change is never pleasant.

I think a lot of the issues with the Paladin fans here is many of you are assuming that everyone is saying Paladin's suck. Nobody is saying they suck, only that they are no longer an equal opportunity competitive choice as their cost now outweighs their value, making choices like Purifiers and Strikes much better considering the amount of extra firepower and wounds they put down. All these arguments that they will be fine with two IC's on them are detrimental to your argument; if a unit needs two IC's joined to them to be effective then they aren't all that great. Saying things like don't worry about such and such a bad match-up because it is bad against other things also isn't much of an argument; nobody said anything about Dark Eldar lance SPAM, as they can get enough S8 AP2 without negating the effectiveness of the rest of the army, and they such a list doesn't have too many RPS match-ups. Similar with Guard; they are good against everything. Are you going to say don't worry about them as well?

 felixcat wrote:
I'm thankful my list was barely scratched - other than Draigo's titansword. I actually got in a match against Daemons with it ...

-Do the Monster Mash-
HQ: 1 Lord Kaldor Draigo, 275 (GK)
HQ: 1 Malleus Inquisitor (TDA. Psycannon, Prescience) 110 GK
HQ: 1 Avatar of Khaine 155 (EL)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 15 Storm Guardians (2 Flamers, Spiritseer, Conceal, Singing Spear) 173 (EL)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Dreadnought (Dual TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition) 135
Heavy Support: 1 Wraithlord (2 Flamer, Wraithsword, Shuricannon) 110 (EL)
-1998-

My feelings about allies for GK aside, I really like that list.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
Going to try this next game

Draigo
Coteaz
5 Paladins, Banner + Apo
1 Paladin (for deepstriking goodness)
Dreadknight w/ Tele, Incin, Sword
Dreadknight w/ Tele, Incin, Sword
Psyrifle Dread

madness, I know. But after seeing how little my Strike squad and their Razorback accomplished in the tournament, I think I'll chance it

I love Dreadknights, but I can't stand them without the teleporter pack. Especially with hammer and anvil deployment when your opponent hugs the back of their table edge

If you don't get perfect match-ups I can't see this doing good at all. There are too few models, making it easy for the enemy to mitigate any threats, and you will struggle with objectives quite often I reckon.

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:

moving ALL the wounds around on 4+s should really only be reliable half of the time.

But you could keep the models far enough apart only one or two would be clipped by any one small blast and then still have a 50% chance of shunting the wound to any other model.

Now with the 'three man touching Draigo' system rather than one or two for Draigo to take or to get LOS!'d, there'll be 4. So it's twice as bad.

And if they got shot from an angle where Draigo wasn't closest, he could still LOS! ID hits on 4+ for his squad. No more. Now it's a 5+ invun rather than half the time being a 3+ and 5+ FNP. Much worse.

Not that I'm really moaning (though I do thing removing character status has hurt paladins a lot and enough to make them at best semi-competitive), the 40K rules regularly degrade certain choices and people always complain -- I think here though it's the startling shift between the pre FAQ rules making paladins a sound choice to post FAQ making them a questionable one, and that very very soon after the change from 5th to 6th that had itself required a little mental adjustment (though not in a bad way by any means). Unexpected negative change is never pleasant.

Sure, it's a nerf but most of the issues, like getting flanked, templates etc didn't suddenly appear, they were already the weakpoint of Paldins. It just got increased a bit and while it makes it less efficient, I'm not entirely sure the sky is falling. I'm also not at all worried about small templates, I can move around those fine, my big issue was always a high number of wounds from large blasts.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


If you don't get perfect match-ups I can't see this doing good at all. There are too few models, making it easy for the enemy to mitigate any threats, and you will struggle with objectives quite often I reckon.

Probably; I have a few other lists with more bodies to try out as well.

Dropping one DK gives me 2 razorbacks with 5 Strikes and a Psycannon in both; so I'll try that as well and see how it goes.

The objectives game was really sad in this tourney, totally blah. First game actually had objectives; but I ended up getting wiped by the flying circus so objectives didn't mean squat. 2nd game was Emperor's Will (ugh, least favorite), 3rd was Purge on a horrible long table deployment (double ugh). Don't get me wrong, I love playing with objectives, but you're right, that list can't contest many!

Also have another Draigo picture underway showing off his new Hellblade, uh, I mean reforged Titansword.

 Stoffer wrote:

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:

moving ALL the wounds around on 4+s should really only be reliable half of the time.

But you could keep the models far enough apart only one or two would be clipped by any one small blast and then still have a 50% chance of shunting the wound to any other model.

Now with the 'three man touching Draigo' system rather than one or two for Draigo to take or to get LOS!'d, there'll be 4. So it's twice as bad.

And if they got shot from an angle where Draigo wasn't closest, he could still LOS! ID hits on 4+ for his squad. No more. Now it's a 5+ invun rather than half the time being a 3+ and 5+ FNP. Much worse.

Not that I'm really moaning (though I do thing removing character status has hurt paladins a lot and enough to make them at best semi-competitive), the 40K rules regularly degrade certain choices and people always complain -- I think here though it's the startling shift between the pre FAQ rules making paladins a sound choice to post FAQ making them a questionable one, and that very very soon after the change from 5th to 6th that had itself required a little mental adjustment (though not in a bad way by any means). Unexpected negative change is never pleasant.

Sure, it's a nerf but most of the issues, like getting flanked, templates etc didn't suddenly appear, they were already the weakpoint of Paldins. It just got increased a bit and while it makes it less efficient, I'm not entirely sure the sky is falling. I'm also not at all worried about small templates, I can move around those fine, my big issue was always a high number of wounds from large blasts.

Perfect example of what I outlined above; who ever said it was? Saying Paladins are now no longer as good a choice as Purifiers or Strikes isn't saying anything of the sort, as the army still has all the tools to deal with anything.

Lanlaorn wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Is a single paladin a menace to most units? Well let's define most.

If it has an AV value but doesn't have a DCCW then yes. That's pretty much everything except a standard dreadnought including the BA Cuisinart.
Is it a troops choice? If the answer is yes then most troops can't handle a single paladin, especially now that sergeants with a power fist have gone out of style. Some troops have melta, but even the dreaded melta vets only have a 15/54 (27.7%) chance of killing the paladin with 3 snap fired melta guns. 1/6 to hit* 5/6 to wound *2/3 to fail armor save = 10/108=5/54 then*3shots=15/54= 27.7%. It's less than 10% per melta gun. Sure 3 melta guns can melt 1 paladin out in the open, but they are should be focused on the main squad of paladins.

Is it a non AV heavy support choice? Long fangs, lootas, dev squads, TFC all dead.

For 55 points a single paladin is a mean unit to deepstrike into an opponent's backfield.

You realize the Paladin can't charge from deep strike right? Disregarding the fact that all these units can just move away from the Paladin while shooting him to death and he'd need some unlikely charge length or a really lucky deep strike scatter to do anything about that, he most likely just won't survive the turn he drops in. Like the three meltaguns you describe... why on earth are you calculating them as overwatch snapshots. They get those too if he ever manages to charge, but first the Paladin drops in and they get a proper round of shooting at him before he attempts to trounce them in combat.

The only way I see this having merit at all is if the Paladin's Holocaust would do serious damage to some horde unit, otherwise you're just throwing 55 points away to make an opponent waste a turn or two of shooting and maybe move a little.

It's an adaptive tactic. If a manticore or backfield hs or troops choice is unguarded go for it. If melta vets are closing in around the paladin death star keep a solodin on the flank not guarded by draigo. If they shoot the solodon max damage from 3 melta is 1 paladin. If the solodin is in any type of area terrain he has a 50/50 of surviving melta vets after going to ground. If the melta vets ignore the solodin they risk a charge.

I guess it's all about perspective. Most of my armies have a squishy backfield, and I'm better prepared to deal with a single 200 point deep striking menace than say 3 solodins.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Stoffer wrote:

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:

moving ALL the wounds around on 4+s should really only be reliable half of the time.

But you could keep the models far enough apart only one or two would be clipped by any one small blast and then still have a 50% chance of shunting the wound to any other model.

Now with the 'three man touching Draigo' system rather than one or two for Draigo to take or to get LOS!'d, there'll be 4. So it's twice as bad.

And if they got shot from an angle where Draigo wasn't closest, he could still LOS! ID hits on 4+ for his squad. No more. Now it's a 5+ invun rather than half the time being a 3+ and 5+ FNP. Much worse.

Not that I'm really moaning (though I do thing removing character status has hurt paladins a lot and enough to make them at best semi-competitive), the 40K rules regularly degrade certain choices and people always complain -- I think here though it's the startling shift between the pre FAQ rules making paladins a sound choice to post FAQ making them a questionable one, and that very very soon after the change from 5th to 6th that had itself required a little mental adjustment (though not in a bad way by any means). Unexpected negative change is never pleasant.

Sure, it's a nerf but most of the issues, like getting flanked, templates etc didn't suddenly appear, they were already the weakpoint of Paldins. It just got increased a bit and while it makes it less efficient, I'm not entirely sure the sky is falling. I'm also not at all worried about small templates, I can move around those fine, my big issue was always a high number of wounds from large blasts.

Perfect example of what I outlined above; who ever said it was? Saying Paladins are now no longer as good a choice as Purifiers or Strikes isn't saying anything of the sort, as the army still has all the tools to deal with anything.

I don't think I said that?

One thing gk players are quick to forget is paladins, purifiers, and strikes are better than tac squads, ba assault marines, grey hunters, and the 5 csm troops choices.

Post nerf paladins are still ws5 w2 2+ armor that can dish out 8 psycannon shots with 2 rerolls on the move with a 5 man squad. Sure purifiers have a lot more dakka when they are not moving, and excels at killing hordes, but they die in droves to ap3 and fold like origami if they get into cc with any teq.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And ps maybe gk was intended to be a well balanced 6th ed book, which is what it seems like now.

Well, I would hope my 26 point Purifier is better then a 16 point tactical marine.

Overall all I'm seeing are cases of 'well if the opponent makes this mistake' or 'if I spend way too much points on several IC's' or 'they are still better then other Codex Terminators', none of which is compelling in the slightest. Anyone around this thread in the last few weeks should know how much I love Paladins, so this isn't a biased approach, but I am willing to accept the fact that they took quite a tumble. There were two types of GK lists before; the PA kind that was all about maximum shooting damage, and the TDA kind where it was about the slow and steady approach while surviving an onslaught; the latter of these two is now no longer that viable as Paladins can no longer reliably survive anything that is thrown at them. They are still ridiculously survivable against a lot of stuff in the game, but they have fallen fully into the RPS match-up trap now to be an optimal tournament build; it is the same reason you don't see mech SPAM anymore, because in a TAC environment you don't take lists with auto-lose pairings. In a list that is otherwise heavy on bodies, then taking a unit of 5 with a standard set-up is still ok I reckon, as it is still a threat that has to be taken seriously, but is not so important to the army that you'll cry about it when DE or IG melt them into goo.

 schadenfreude wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Is a single paladin a menace to most units? Well let's define most.

If it has an AV value but doesn't have a DCCW then yes. That's pretty much everything except a standard dreadnought including the BA Cuisinart.
Is it a troops choice? If the answer is yes then most troops can't handle a single paladin, especially now that sergeants with a power fist have gone out of style. Some troops have melta, but even the dreaded melta vets only have a 15/54 (27.7%) chance of killing the paladin with 3 snap fired melta guns. 1/6 to hit* 5/6 to wound *2/3 to fail armor save = 10/108=5/54 then*3shots=15/54= 27.7%. It's less than 10% per melta gun. Sure 3 melta guns can melt 1 paladin out in the open, but they are should be focused on the main squad of paladins.

Is it a non AV heavy support choice? Long fangs, lootas, dev squads, TFC all dead.

For 55 points a single paladin is a mean unit to deepstrike into an opponent's backfield.

You realize the Paladin can't charge from deep strike right? Disregarding the fact that all these units can just move away from the Paladin while shooting him to death and he'd need some unlikely charge length or a really lucky deep strike scatter to do anything about that, he most likely just won't survive the turn he drops in. Like the three meltaguns you describe... why on earth are you calculating them as overwatch snapshots. They get those too if he ever manages to charge, but first the Paladin drops in and they get a proper round of shooting at him before he attempts to trounce them in combat.

The only way I see this having merit at all is if the Paladin's Holocaust would do serious damage to some horde unit, otherwise you're just throwing 55 points away to make an opponent waste a turn or two of shooting and maybe move a little.

It's an adaptive tactic. If a manticore or backfield hs or troops choice is unguarded go for it. If melta vets are closing in around the paladin death star keep a solodin on the flank not guarded by draigo. If they shoot the solodon max damage from 3 melta is 1 paladin. If the solodin is in any type of area terrain he has a 50/50 of surviving melta vets after going to ground. If the melta vets ignore the solodin they risk a charge.

I guess it's all about perspective. Most of my armies have a squishy backfield, and I'm better prepared to deal with a single 200 point deep striking menace than say 3 solodins.

It is about perspective, which is why I don't get your arguments. These arguments are all under the assumption that the opponent will do something stupid. With knowledge that a Paladin in waiting in DS no half-decent opponent will leave his Manticore unguarded. No half-decent opponent is going to put Melta Vets anywhere near Paladins.

[
quote]My feelings about allies for GK aside, I really like that list.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Overall all I'm seeing are cases of 'well if the opponent makes this mistake' or 'if I spend way too much points on several IC's' or 'they are still better then other Codex Terminators', none of which is compelling in the slightest. Anyone around this thread in the last few weeks should know how much I love Paladins, so this isn't a biased approach, but I am willing to accept the fact that they took quite a tumble. There were two types of GK lists before; the PA kind that was all about maximum shooting damage, and the TDA kind where it was about the slow and steady approach while surviving an onslaught; the latter of these two is now no longer that viable as Paladins can no longer reliably survive anything that is thrown at them. They are still ridiculously survivable against a lot of stuff in the game, but they have fallen fully into the RPS match-up trap now to be an optimal tournament build; it is the same reason you don't see mech SPAM anymore, because in a TAC environment you don't take lists with auto-lose pairings. In a list that is otherwise heavy on bodies, then taking a unit of 5 with a standard set-up is still ok I reckon, as it is still a threat that has to be taken seriously, but is not so important to the army that you'll cry about it when DE or IG melt them into goo.

 schadenfreude wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Is a single paladin a menace to most units? Well let's define most.

If it has an AV value but doesn't have a DCCW then yes. That's pretty much everything except a standard dreadnought including the BA Cuisinart.
Is it a troops choice? If the answer is yes then most troops can't handle a single paladin, especially now that sergeants with a power fist have gone out of style. Some troops have melta, but even the dreaded melta vets only have a 15/54 (27.7%) chance of killing the paladin with 3 snap fired melta guns. 1/6 to hit* 5/6 to wound *2/3 to fail armor save = 10/108=5/54 then*3shots=15/54= 27.7%. It's less than 10% per melta gun. Sure 3 melta guns can melt 1 paladin out in the open, but they are should be focused on the main squad of paladins.

Is it a non AV heavy support choice? Long fangs, lootas, dev squads, TFC all dead.

For 55 points a single paladin is a mean unit to deepstrike into an opponent's backfield.

You realize the Paladin can't charge from deep strike right? Disregarding the fact that all these units can just move away from the Paladin while shooting him to death and he'd need some unlikely charge length or a really lucky deep strike scatter to do anything about that, he most likely just won't survive the turn he drops in. Like the three meltaguns you describe... why on earth are you calculating them as overwatch snapshots. They get those too if he ever manages to charge, but first the Paladin drops in and they get a proper round of shooting at him before he attempts to trounce them in combat.

The only way I see this having merit at all is if the Paladin's Holocaust would do serious damage to some horde unit, otherwise you're just throwing 55 points away to make an opponent waste a turn or two of shooting and maybe move a little.

It's an adaptive tactic. If a manticore or backfield hs or troops choice is unguarded go for it. If melta vets are closing in around the paladin death star keep a solodin on the flank not guarded by draigo. If they shoot the solodon max damage from 3 melta is 1 paladin. If the solodin is in any type of area terrain he has a 50/50 of surviving melta vets after going to ground. If the melta vets ignore the solodin they risk a charge.

I guess it's all about perspective. Most of my armies have a squishy backfield, and I'm better prepared to deal with a single 200 point deep striking menace than say 3 solodins.

It is about perspective, which is why I don't get your arguments. These arguments are all under the assumption that the opponent will do something stupid. With knowledge that a Paladin in waiting in DS no half-decent opponent will leave his Manticore unguarded. No half-decent opponent is going to put Melta Vets anywhere near Paladins.

If 155 points of melta vets sits back to guard a manticore on one flank and instead of melting face the solodin worked, redeploy elsewhere. I've had great results from marbo melta bombing vehicles after his demo charge hits or whiffs. A solodin is much less expensive than a decked out lone wolf. I'll be the 1st to admit it's not an easy user friendly unit, but it also goes against the current meta so opponents won't have much experience dealing with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One last word on the solodin that i think is the elephant in the room. They are a deep striking cheap troops choice in a game where the objective v kp ratio went from 2-1 to 5-1. 6th ed is objective based, and there are no other gk troops solutions in the solodin's price range that offers a 2+ save for target saturation.

Again you are throwing in unlikely details to try fuel your argument. Who said Melta Vets would sit at the back guarding a Manticore? You have more than just the Paladins and Draigo in your army, so they have other targets, and the IG player likewise has more things in his army to protect the mech.

As for the assertion that the current meta means people don't have to stuff to deal with Soladins, where on earth did you get that idea? If in the current meta most armies can deal with full units, including Terminators, then they can easily deal with a single 2W Terminator on his own.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Overall all I'm seeing are cases of 'well if the opponent makes this mistake' or 'if I spend way too much points on several IC's' or 'they are still better then other Codex Terminators', none of which is compelling in the slightest. Anyone around this thread in the last few weeks should know how much I love Paladins, so this isn't a biased approach, but I am willing to accept the fact that they took quite a tumble. There were two types of GK lists before; the PA kind that was all about maximum shooting damage, and the TDA kind where it was about the slow and steady approach while surviving an onslaught; the latter of these two is now no longer that viable as Paladins can no longer reliably survive anything that is thrown at them. They are still ridiculously survivable against a lot of stuff in the game, but they have fallen fully into the RPS match-up trap now to be an optimal tournament build; it is the same reason you don't see mech SPAM anymore, because in a TAC environment you don't take lists with auto-lose pairings. In a list that is otherwise heavy on bodies, then taking a unit of 5 with a standard set-up is still ok I reckon, as it is still a threat that has to be taken seriously, but is not so important to the army that you'll cry about it when DE or IG melt them into goo.

 schadenfreude wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Is a single paladin a menace to most units? Well let's define most.

If it has an AV value but doesn't have a DCCW then yes. That's pretty much everything except a standard dreadnought including the BA Cuisinart.
Is it a troops choice? If the answer is yes then most troops can't handle a single paladin, especially now that sergeants with a power fist have gone out of style. Some troops have melta, but even the dreaded melta vets only have a 15/54 (27.7%) chance of killing the paladin with 3 snap fired melta guns. 1/6 to hit* 5/6 to wound *2/3 to fail armor save = 10/108=5/54 then*3shots=15/54= 27.7%. It's less than 10% per melta gun. Sure 3 melta guns can melt 1 paladin out in the open, but they are should be focused on the main squad of paladins.

Is it a non AV heavy support choice? Long fangs, lootas, dev squads, TFC all dead.

For 55 points a single paladin is a mean unit to deepstrike into an opponent's backfield.

You realize the Paladin can't charge from deep strike right? Disregarding the fact that all these units can just move away from the Paladin while shooting him to death and he'd need some unlikely charge length or a really lucky deep strike scatter to do anything about that, he most likely just won't survive the turn he drops in. Like the three meltaguns you describe... why on earth are you calculating them as overwatch snapshots. They get those too if he ever manages to charge, but first the Paladin drops in and they get a proper round of shooting at him before he attempts to trounce them in combat.

The only way I see this having merit at all is if the Paladin's Holocaust would do serious damage to some horde unit, otherwise you're just throwing 55 points away to make an opponent waste a turn or two of shooting and maybe move a little.

It's an adaptive tactic. If a manticore or backfield hs or troops choice is unguarded go for it. If melta vets are closing in around the paladin death star keep a solodin on the flank not guarded by draigo. If they shoot the solodon max damage from 3 melta is 1 paladin. If the solodin is in any type of area terrain he has a 50/50 of surviving melta vets after going to ground. If the melta vets ignore the solodin they risk a charge.

I guess it's all about perspective. Most of my armies have a squishy backfield, and I'm better prepared to deal with a single 200 point deep striking menace than say 3 solodins.

It is about perspective, which is why I don't get your arguments. These arguments are all under the assumption that the opponent will do something stupid. With knowledge that a Paladin in waiting in DS no half-decent opponent will leave his Manticore unguarded. No half-decent opponent is going to put Melta Vets anywhere near Paladins.

If 155 points of melta vets sits back to guard a manticore on one flank and instead of melting face the solodin worked, redeploy elsewhere. I've had great results from marbo melta bombing vehicles after his demo charge hits or whiffs. A solodin is much less expensive than a decked out lone wolf. I'll be the 1st to admit it's not an easy user friendly unit, but it also goes against the current meta so opponents won't have much experience dealing with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One last word on the solodin that i think is the elephant in the room. They are a deep striking cheap troops choice in a game where the objective v kp ratio went from 2-1 to 5-1. 6th ed is objective based, and there are no other gk troops solutions in the solodin's price range that offers a 2+ save for target saturation.

While I like the solodin, i've shifted to 3 henchmen with bolters in a Chimera. It has a surprising amount of durability and can potentially fire 3 bolters, a multilaser and a heavy bolter.

One last word on the solodin that i think is the elephant in the room. They are a deep striking cheap troops choice in a game where the objective v kp ratio went from 2-1 to 5-1. 6th ed is objective based, and there are no other gk troops solutions in the solodin's price range that offers a 2+ save for target saturation.

In the three games I used a Soladin in 6ed, he was only once in contention to score and only because my opponent was frankly not thinking the game through properly. Again, if it's working for you ... I know that it would not pose a threat to me. Now I was never high on paladins anyway in 6ed even when they had the 'los' shenanigans although because I own 15 of them I will use a small squad of five now and again. I still use Draigo, though and will continue to even though AP3 sword hurts a bit. He is a cc monster when joining an assault and is great backing up my MCs who can kill anything he cannot.

Yesterday I killed 3 units in one turn of shooting with 3plasma cannon of the same unit.

Of course, they were 5 - 2 -1 power armour marines, but they were separated, and in cover, it was very lucky from my side, but makes me think that it can happens to someone else, and obliterate my solodins like that.

If I were to Run Draigo an his Paladins I would do something like this.

Belial w/ TH/SS 130pts

5x Upgraded Deathwing w/ 4x TH/SS, Cyclone, and Apothecary 265pts
5x Deathwing w/ 4x TH/SS and Cyclone 235pts

Draigo 275pts

10 paladins w/ 4 psycannon, apothecary, banner, stave, 4 hammers, 4 halberds or swords - 750

Dreadknight w/ Teleporter, Incinerator, an Greatsword 260pts

4 extremely hard scoring units, for a 1999 game I have around 85pts left over I dunno what I would do with them. I might even drop the Dreadknight add Coteaz to buff the Paladins and Draigo an add some weaklings.

valace2 wrote:
If I were to Run Draigo an his Paladins I would do something like this.

Belial w/ TH/SS 130pts

5x Upgraded Deathwing w/ 4x TH/SS, Cyclone, and Apothecary 265pts
5x Deathwing w/ 4x TH/SS and Cyclone 235pts

Draigo 275pts

10 paladins w/ 4 psycannon, apothecary, banner, stave, 4 hammers, 4 halberds or swords - 750

Dreadknight w/ Teleporter, Incinerator, an Greatsword 260pts

4 extremely hard scoring units, for a 1999 game I have around 85pts left over I dunno what I would do with them. I might even drop the Dreadknight add Coteaz to buff the Paladins and Draigo an add some weaklings.

I've become a huge fan of running warrior acolytes as just some goobers to camp a home objective and keep going to ground behind some cover if my Opponenet so chooses to waste shots on those goons. This leaves my infinitly more valuable fighting force free to pwn

 Goat wrote:

valace2 wrote:
If I were to Run Draigo an his Paladins I would do something like this.

Belial w/ TH/SS 130pts

5x Upgraded Deathwing w/ 4x TH/SS, Cyclone, and Apothecary 265pts
5x Deathwing w/ 4x TH/SS and Cyclone 235pts

Draigo 275pts

10 paladins w/ 4 psycannon, apothecary, banner, stave, 4 hammers, 4 halberds or swords - 750

Dreadknight w/ Teleporter, Incinerator, an Greatsword 260pts

4 extremely hard scoring units, for a 1999 game I have around 85pts left over I dunno what I would do with them. I might even drop the Dreadknight add Coteaz to buff the Paladins and Draigo an add some weaklings.

I've become a huge fan of running warrior acolytes as just some goobers to camp a home objective and keep going to ground behind some cover if my Opponenet so chooses to waste shots on those goons. This leaves my infinitly more valuable fighting force free to pwn

I know that its leaving the spirit of the Draigowing to add allies an weaklings and the DK fits the theme, but if I drop the DK I can add Coteaz an something like 40 weaklings with 12 melta guns to boot. Leave some home to babysit and move the rest behind the terminators, though not to close. Any shots pulled away from the terminators is a win. Plus adding Coteaz to Draigo's squad basically gives you great anti air.

valace2 wrote:
If I were to Run Draigo an his Paladins I would do something like this.

Belial w/ TH/SS 130pts

5x Upgraded Deathwing w/ 4x TH/SS, Cyclone, and Apothecary 265pts
5x Deathwing w/ 4x TH/SS and Cyclone 235pts

Draigo 275pts

10 paladins w/ 4 psycannon, apothecary, banner, stave, 4 hammers, 4 halberds or swords - 750

Dreadknight w/ Teleporter, Incinerator, an Greatsword 260pts

4 extremely hard scoring units, for a 1999 game I have around 85pts left over I dunno what I would do with them. I might even drop the Dreadknight add Coteaz to buff the Paladins and Draigo an add some weaklings.

This sounds fun; isn't there some online codex for DA somewhere?

Or is it just the original codex, but heavily FAQd?

Hard to fit into 1500pts, heh.