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 Enigwolf wrote:
Didn't they FAQ Combat Squads and Transports to always be able to share the same transport as their other squad? Or am I imagining this?

woopsy, you are right. it says they can share apparently though I've yet to have this occur come up but you are right. That is possible.
I've almost always driven away so it's never actually come up that they try to get back into the same vehicle.

Might be kind of useful for land raider I suppose

Does the psybolt ammunition run throughout a defense line bolt action gun? So if I throw my Brother Capt into a Bastion, does that give all the HB psybolt ammo as well?

And with the Death from the Skies suppliment, can GK take Stormtalons?

Technically yes. Since the special upgrade is for him and not just his stormbolter. Fyi, you get 4 heavy bolters on a fortress of redemption.

Ok, so after some thought and reading the first 15 pages of this thread and the last 2 pages (sorry if I missed A LOT in between) here is what I'm looking at: Lots of MSU and Crowe (because you know why)...

HQ - Crow manning the Quad Gun of the Aegis Defense line - 250 pts

Troops - Purifier Squad x4 - 5 guys, 2 Psycannons - 640 pts
One on each side of the line, and 2 for better shots/placement as determined by the scenario.

Elites - Trialadins x2 - 3 Paladins - 330 pts
Could go dual x3, but I wanted them for counter attack for the interceptors. I'm a symmetry kind of guy.

FA - Interceptors x2 - 5 guys, 1 incinerator - 360pts

Heavy - Psyfleman Dreads x2 - 270pts

1850pts

This gets me MSU, plenty of Str 5/8 across the board (though limited range for most of it), and some guys to DS/Bounce around the board.

I'm still running an all TDA Ghostwing, centered on Mordrak, Ghosts, Librarian, and two 10man squads of GKT. Does ok in the current meta, not stellar. Not a WAAC army by any means! But I've been able the drop next to a Riptide and Warp Rifted it off the table enough times that my local opponents hide it now, defeating the whole purpose of taking it. Haven't played against the new Eldar yet, but I did buy the codex to plan on how I'll be dealing with them in future games.

SJ

I'm moving more and more into shunting capable units. Combined with some allied drop pods for some crazy fun.

It's just so hard to find points for something like 3x dk's. 2x DK's do ok though =) I still struggle to find points for swords when cramming in interceptors. Usually this approach also leaves me fairly defenseless vs fliers swarms but I do have quite a bit of an alpha strike. Also struggles with heldrakes and big tarpits lol

 sudojoe wrote:
I'm moving more and more into shunting capable units. Combined with some allied drop pods for some crazy fun.

It's just so hard to find points for something like 3x dk's. 2x DK's do ok though =) I still struggle to find points for swords when cramming in interceptors. Usually this approach also leaves me fairly defenseless vs fliers swarms but I do have quite a bit of an alpha strike. Also struggles with heldrakes and big tarpits lol

I'm right with you here, joe. I really wish the dex had an HQ option to make interceptors troops! haha I usually Run a base GM, 2 interceptor squads and 2 DKs as a starting point. Than depending on the points I'll either go Coteaz and MSU henchmen or strike squads. The shunting is amazing. With interceptors I usually just jump to about 20" away from my intended target. Getting maximum firepower with minimum return fire or counter assault.

Ok, thinking about running my GK's again.....in a tournament.

Actually, it's going to be GK+necrons, with necrons being the Primary. It's a similar list to the one yermom ran at Adepticon and it's got potential to really kick teeth if you know what you're doing.


2K Necrons + Draigowing

Destroyer Lord - 2+, MSS
Draigo

10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons, Apothecary, Banner, Stave
1x Soladin - Hammer
5x Necrons - Night Scythe
5x Necrons - Night Scythe

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo


My goal is a modest one....to kick ass, take names and win all 6 games! BTW, will probably get in a practice game this weekend.

Coyote81 wrote:
Technically yes. Since the special upgrade is for him and not just his stormbolter. Fyi, you get 4 heavy bolters on a fortress of redemption.

You have to buy those HBs. It doesn't come with any.

But yes, psybolt ammo will transfer to the HBs if a model/unit with the upgrade fires them.

Can he fire all of them, or does there need to be an accompanying unit? Don't have the rule book here for the bastion rules.

1 guy fires 1 gun.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Didn't they FAQ Combat Squads and Transports to always be able to share the same transport as their other squad? Or am I imagining this?

No this is true. I don't think they did away with it.

So I've been finding every single stand-alone GK build to be pretty crap in this edition. Some success with Tau allies, but I don't use them for AA (since I have my Psyflemen, Aegis, and Stormraven for that. Instead, I walk them up the board while I have infantry shunting, deepstriking, or deploying via transport into their backfield. Seems to work decently well for now.

Oddly enough I have the opposite experience. I can't find a single Ally combo that's worth the points.

 Enigwolf wrote:
So I've been finding every single stand-alone GK build to be pretty crap in this edition. Some success with Tau allies, but I don't use them for AA (since I have my Psyflemen, Aegis, and Stormraven for that. Instead, I walk them up the board while I have infantry shunting, deepstriking, or deploying via transport into their backfield. Seems to work decently well for now.

They also work well with necrons and IG.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Oddly enough I have the opposite experience. I can't find a single Ally combo that's worth the points.

They also work well with necrons and IG.

 jy2 wrote:
Ok, thinking about running my GK's again.....in a tournament.

Actually, it's going to be GK+necrons, with necrons being the Primary. It's a similar list to the one yermom ran at Adepticon and it's got potential to really kick teeth if you know what you're doing.


2K Necrons + Draigowing

Destroyer Lord - 2+, MSS
Draigo

10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons, Apothecary, Banner, Stave
1x Soladin - Hammer
5x Necrons - Night Scythe
5x Necrons - Night Scythe

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo


My goal is a modest one....to kick ass, take names and win all 6 games! BTW, will probably get in a practice game this weekend.

I'm pretty familiar with the necron + GK combo but this one seems a tad strange given the mobility of other armies now. The wraithstar can do similarly and threaten things pretty well from turn 2 on. The palistar is more resilent vs small arms fire (cept vs Eldar) and can't stand up to AP2 templates as nearly as well (Tau) and I expect both of those things to be plugging away at any death star since your scoring troops are going to be mostly off the table with (I suspect deep striking terminator and warriors in scythes). With no escort, the D.lord will be hiding I'm guessing (to preserve the warlord slaying).

Annihilation barges are good I'd admit but It'd be still pretty tough to out shoot the enemy since there's a lot of 2+ cover /armor toting things now a days. The psyfleman can help buff the paladins against psychic madness and I'm generally assuming that you will be shoving the expendable (since not warlord) draigo + pali squad + dread for support into the teeth of the enemy?

I guess my biggest issue that while you got decent range with 24' psycannon spam and tanky draigo, I just fear what a properly played riptide + marker team list would do against this thing. The barges would be too slow and out ranged and against the new eldar, there'd be some problems forcing an engagement with their speed, lack of ignore cover, and the sheer volume of the return fire (a lot of it AP2 or 1 and a lot of it could be str 8+ in both.)
(we have had several long term Eldar players that's been jumping for joy since the new dex dropped and some of their firepower has been amazing. I've lost the draigostar by turn 3 before trying to foot slog it to them. (even with scout move)

What this kind of list is great against though is that it's gonna be good vs a lot of FMC's, or daemon shooting but can be tarpitted quite a bit by fearless blobs. It'll be resilent to noise marines and heldrakes which is a big plus going for it. It'll be fair enough vs some gunlines though I'm not sure what answer it can give to drop pod armies that go after barges and just go for objectives. Not enough MSU in here to engage multiple targets.

What's your overall strat with this thing jy2? (also, no warscythe for the D.lord?)

I would like to see what this kind of list can do vs the new mechdar. 5 point lances are so cheap and such a hard counter on vehicles that need 22 str 7 shots to potentially wreck (50.89% give or take with the serpent shield and 4+ cover saves) With Annhiliation barges - it'd be more like 17 twin linked shots to get 53% wreck) - varience a lot with how much 6's you get with tesla could be as few as 12 but on average it'll still take about 3 annhiliation barges to wreck one vehicle a turn or possibly 2 turns or more if you can catch it since it does out range the barges too.

 sudojoe wrote:

I'm pretty familiar with the necron + GK combo but this one seems a tad strange given the mobility of other armies now. The wraithstar can do similarly and threaten things pretty well from turn 2 on. The palistar is more resilent vs small arms fire (cept vs Eldar) and can't stand up to AP2 templates as nearly as well (Tau) and I expect both of those things to be plugging away at any death star since your scoring troops are going to be mostly off the table with (I suspect deep striking terminator and warriors in scythes). With no escort, the D.lord will be hiding I'm guessing (to preserve the warlord slaying).

Annihilation barges are good I'd admit but It'd be still pretty tough to out shoot the enemy since there's a lot of 2+ cover /armor toting things now a days. The psyfleman can help buff the paladins against psychic madness and I'm generally assuming that you will be shoving the expendable (since not warlord) draigo + pali squad + dread for support into the teeth of the enemy?

I guess my biggest issue that while you got decent range with 24' psycannon spam and tanky draigo, I just fear what a properly played riptide + marker team list would do against this thing. The barges would be too slow and out ranged and against the new eldar, there'd be some problems forcing an engagement with their speed, lack of ignore cover, and the sheer volume of the return fire (a lot of it AP2 or 1 and a lot of it could be str 8+ in both.)
(we have had several long term Eldar players that's been jumping for joy since the new dex dropped and some of their firepower has been amazing. I've lost the draigostar by turn 3 before trying to foot slog it to them. (even with scout move)

What this kind of list is great against though is that it's gonna be good vs a lot of FMC's, or daemon shooting but can be tarpitted quite a bit by fearless blobs. It'll be resilent to noise marines and heldrakes which is a big plus going for it. It'll be fair enough vs some gunlines though I'm not sure what answer it can give to drop pod armies that go after barges and just go for objectives. Not enough MSU in here to engage multiple targets.

What's your overall strat with this thing jy2? (also, no warscythe for the D.lord?)

Ah....some very astute observations, young grasshopper. Let me try my best to assuage your concerns.


1. First off, the D-lord comes with Warscythe included.

2. What are the real strengths of Tau and Eldar offense? It's volume-of-fire. Yes, they can put up shots like nobody's business. It is precisely because of this why I prefer to run paladins. If you're concerned about paladins dying to them, then normal strikers/MEQ's haven't got a prayer in the world. Let me tell you, against small-arms fire, the 11-man Draigostar unit will outlast 40+ strikers/MEQ's and then some! There are just too many things that will kill MEQ's nowadays. If you want to be able to compete, you need to run ultra-tough units like terminators or lots and lots of bodies like a blob squad (or zombies) or have troops protected in flying transports (i.e. necron warriors). Normal MEQ's on foot or even in rhinos just cannot compete against the upper-tier tournament armies.

3. Lack of mobility, which is an exploitable weakness of Draigowing, is addressed to a degree with troops in flying transports. And necrons are masters at this, which is one of the reasons why they complement Draigowing so well.

4. Apothecary. Normally, I am against running an Apoc in a Draigowing build, but with Tau, the new Eldar and even daemons (Tzeentch shooting), I'm beginning to warm up to the Apothecary. The Apoc makes a tough unit even tougher, especially against small-arms fire. It also gives some protection to S7-spam and in particular, plasmas. Now paladins will be twice as likely to survive plasmas thanks to 5++ and then 5+ FNP. Draigo himself becomes a slightly better tanker with 3++ and then 5+ FNP against AP 1/2 guns.

5. The D-lord will be in the Night Scythe with the troops. When he comes in, I can drop him off in the enemy backcourt as a disruption unit. Now they need to split their resources to deal with a jump infantry T6 monstrosity as well as the other threats in my army. Just try to drop him off behind LOS-blocking terrain if possible. He then has the speed to immediately threaten many units the next turn.

Of course if I want to DS the paladins, I can always start my D-lord off on the board hiding, but usually that is not a good idea (to DS the paladinstar, that is).

6. Annihilation barges and psyfleman give me a lot of accurate high-strength shots. Focus-fire from them can even soften up tough foes behind cover. I'm not too concerned about 2+ saves as my paladins will eventually mow through those units. The vehicles will strategically pick off other, easier to kill units. Plus, they are resilient and can soak up some damage. The dread can also be a scoring unit if necessary.

7. Against Tau, all you need to know is that their sweet spot is only 15". Inside of 15", they are particularly deadly with triple shots. Outside of 15", not so. I can take advantage of that because all my guns are full strength at 24".

8. You don't necessarily have to "shove" your paladins "into the teeth of the enemy"? Although against many opponents, you would want to do that....but not all the time. Instead, you use the paladins to control the middle so that they can threaten all (with their shooting). Then if your opponent makes a play for the other objectives, they're going to have to go through your paladins.

9. Barges have decent range. Even their snapfire is somewhat deadly so they can still move 12" and be effective shooting-wise.

10. Plasmas on Tau isn't as prevalent as before. Competitive builds tend to go more with riptides, missile-sides and dual-Mpod tau over fireknives (w/plasmas). With the exception of the Farsight-bomb, I see most competitive Tau builds with only 1 or at most 2 units of crisis with plasmas and/or fusion. Heck, I'm more worried about plasmavets in IG armies than I am in fireknife Tau.


Basically, this list will work because it is a good TAC list as well as an anti-meta list. Right now, most lists are designed to be able to kill MEQ's or light armor. This type of list has neither. You're either firing at ultra-durable infantry or highly armoured vehicles or flyers. The dominance of S6/7-spam is largely wasted against this list and it is quite resistant to small-arms fire. Sure, meltas, lascannons and other high-strength low-AP guns can hurt it, but those types of lists are becoming rarer and rarer as armies who spam S6/7 guns are killing them. It's not perfect - no list is - but it has all the tools to handle most builds and also handle them well. I'm sure the winner of Adepticon 2013 can attest to that.

^ This is... actually a surprisingly well thought-out and solid list. I'm trying to poke holes in it, but coming up with very few because it's been catered for the current meta. And it theoretically works. I'm running on a similar principle of dropping something beefy in the opponent's backfield, scissoring them and forcing them to pick what to shoot at, and the few times it works, it works. I just need to work on my delivery system.

I'm kinda curious, why not run a wraithstar along with the draigostar?

@Jy2

The only problem I have with your build is that..... it's 2000pts and most games are played at 1500 to 1750. and that is alot of points- 2 ahnilation barges at 1750 and well I don't know how the build will be even relatively the same once it gets down to 1500

1. First off, the D-lord comes with Warscythe included.

2. What are the real strengths of Tau and Eldar offense? It's volume-of-fire. Yes, they can put up shots like nobody's business. It is precisely because of this why I prefer to run paladins. If you're concerned about paladins dying to them, then normal strikers/MEQ's haven't got a prayer in the world. Let me tell you, against small-arms fire, the 11-man Draigostar unit will outlast 40+ strikers/MEQ's and then some! There are just too many things that will kill MEQ's nowadays. If you want to be able to compete, you need to run ultra-tough units like terminators or lots and lots of bodies like a blob squad (or zombies) or have troops protected in flying transports (i.e. necron warriors). Normal MEQ's on foot or even in rhinos just cannot compete against the upper-tier tournament armies.

3. Lack of mobility, which is an exploitable weakness of Draigowing, is addressed to a degree with troops in flying transports. And necrons are masters at this, which is one of the reasons why they complement Draigowing so well.

4. Apothecary. Normally, I am against running an Apoc in a Draigowing build, but with Tau, the new Eldar and even daemons (Tzeentch shooting), I'm beginning to warm up to the Apothecary. The Apoc makes a tough unit even tougher, especially against small-arms fire. It also gives some protection to S7-spam and in particular, plasmas. Now paladins will be twice as likely to survive plasmas thanks to 5++ and then 5+ FNP. Draigo himself becomes a slightly better tanker with 3++ and then 5+ FNP against AP 1/2 guns.

5. The D-lord will be in the Night Scythe with the troops. When he comes in, I can drop him off in the enemy backcourt as a disruption unit. Now they need to split their resources to deal with a jump infantry T6 monstrosity as well as the other threats in my army. Just try to drop him off behind LOS-blocking terrain if possible. He then has the speed to immediately threaten many units the next turn.

Of course if I want to DS the paladins, I can always start my D-lord off on the board hiding, but usually that is not a good idea (to DS the paladinstar, that is).

6. Annihilation barges and psyfleman give me a lot of accurate high-strength shots. Focus-fire from them can even soften up tough foes behind cover. I'm not too concerned about 2+ saves as my paladins will eventually mow through those units. The vehicles will strategically pick off other, easier to kill units. Plus, they are resilient and can soak up some damage. The dread can also be a scoring unit if necessary.

7. Against Tau, all you need to know is that their sweet spot is only 15". Inside of 15", they are particularly deadly with triple shots. Outside of 15", not so. I can take advantage of that because all my guns are full strength at 24".

8. You don't necessarily have to "shove" your paladins "into the teeth of the enemy"? Although against many opponents, you would want to do that....but not all the time. Instead, you use the paladins to control the middle so that they can threaten all (with their shooting). Then if your opponent makes a play for the other objectives, they're going to have to go through your paladins.

9. Barges have decent range. Even their snapfire is somewhat deadly so they can still move 12" and be effective shooting-wise.

10. Plasmas on Tau isn't as prevalent as before. Competitive builds tend to go more with riptides, missile-sides and dual-Mpod tau over fireknives (w/plasmas). With the exception of the Farsight-bomb, I see most competitive Tau builds with only 1 or at most 2 units of crisis with plasmas and/or fusion. Heck, I'm more worried about plasmavets in IG armies than I am in fireknife Tau.


Basically, this list will work because it is a good TAC list as well as an anti-meta list. Right now, most lists are designed to be able to kill MEQ's or light armor. This type of list has neither. You're either firing at ultra-durable infantry or highly armoured vehicles or flyers. The dominance of S6/7-spam is largely wasted against this list and it is quite resistant to small-arms fire. Sure, meltas, lascannons and other high-strength low-AP guns can hurt it, but those types of lists are becoming rarer and rarer as armies who spam S6/7 guns are killing them. It's not perfect - no list is - but it has all the tools to handle most builds and also handle them well. I'm sure the winner of Adepticon 2013 can attest to that.

1) yep, but wasn't sure what the heck you were gonna do with the d.lord so I had no idea what was on it

2) While I attest that mass fire warriors would give Tau that sweet 3 shot thing at 15', this would involve taking things like etherals and mass infantry. I'm Seeing much more Ion accelerator Riptides which I'm pretty sure will be on tables. It both out ranges, out runs, and can lay down some nasty str 8 AP2 (minimally scattering ignore cover - if given the proper markerlight support it needs) I run that myself anyway. Yes, the palistar will take minimal casualties from my HYMP broadsides but they'd probably be plinking at the 2 necron fliers and or annhiliation barges if any get in range. I'd leave the riptides to fight the pallies. I think my sweet spot for my Tau build is actually more like 36' as I really don't have all that many fire warriors dismounted and 36' is where markerlights + missle broadsides and other missle pods are getting effective.

3/8) I completely agree that necrons in fliers is the way to go for objective grabbing. I do a ton of that but I've been having issues vs the new Mechdar builds that can bypass the palistar pretty easily as well as survive a ton of str 7 or 8 shooting with their annoying serpent shield and 3+ cover flat out save. Jetbikes from the new Eldar is also problematic with their always on cover save along with incredible speed (12' move + 24' flat out (turboboost)+ 2d6 assault move). They would completely bypass the palistar. With low numbers of scoring warriors from those scythes, it'd be tough to dislodge the jetbikers and they definitely can wipe out a 5 man squad in one round. With the shiruken rending, they might even be able to take out the solo'din in one round though I've not yet played this scenario on the table yet. Definitely good at blocking nids or other beasts/calvery/jet pack troops but not very good at blocking jetbikes though basically nothing in the game is other than weirdly enough horde armies where there is no place without some dudes.

I might be overblowing the Eldar here a bit but we have some long time Eldar players here who are quite good and with the new rules, I'm just too slow on the board to keep up with their super fast units as well as with their JSJ things or just straight up annoying wave serpents. I'm just glad no one's gone all wraithguard in ws's on me just yet. AP2 flamers would be annoying as hell on T6 3+ guys.

4) I've actually been thinking the same way on the apoc. I think I made the same recommendation a few posts back when someone was asking about him. I do like the guy and what he does for 10 man squads.

5) That's kind of clever actually. I had to go back to the necron codex to make sure he can even ride in a night scythe but lol and behold, he can. I might just have to borrow that one next time

6) 3 barges have held up well I'd admit and you should be able to do decently with them most game. I know I have but it just feels a bit light to me. Fire prisms or bike meltas or FMC can still make pretty short work of them though you do have some defenses vs the 2nd two things, I'm more worried about those cheap 5 point lances at BS 4 now a days. I've been out ranged many a times with the Annhiliation barges but I do admit, they are good vs squishies though I've lost my one psyfleman dread by turn 2 in the last 3 games vs Tau and about the same vs mechdar. I still really like him for the reinforced aegis non-the less. I'd probably use him in the same configuration you have as well. Incidentially the WK in default set up with the big lances are pretty sweet at dealing with some armor as well. I'd be careful of that thing too though the palistar probably has little to fear from it except that it can out range a lot of stuff.

7) I think for foot Tau, this is again true. I'm just not sure if it'd hold up vs Elite build. Incidentially, what would you be doing vs necron air force yourself? Pallies without divination is not all that stellar at anti-air. 2 night scythes would not stand up to a lot of return fire either though as you point out in 9), the annhiliation barge is probably what you forsee for this kind of role.

10) yep, completely agree on fireknife config. My big Tau tactical pretty much has my opinions on that. I run mostly pure missles or pure plasmas now with 2 weapons each when I do run crisis suits. (which I'll also admit, less often now that I have 3 riptides mwhahahaha) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/517337.page

Overall I think the list has a lot of merit and I look forward to seeing you in action with it Jy2. I really do want to see what you can do with it vs a mech-eldar or jetbike or heck at 2k points you might get a bit of both in there.

I played a game against another GK player today to test my GK+Tau build. Aside from silly shenanigans like his Mindstrike Missiles killing my Dreadknight with Perils of the Warp and both our Termi-stars fighting at Str. 6 and I 0 (2x Hammerhand and Psykout Grenades respectively), it was a pretty good trial by fire to go against a TEQ list.

This was my list:
Coteaz accompanied by:
Henchmen Squad (3 Plascannon Servitors, 2 Jokaero, 4 Bolter Acolytes, Crusader)
Techmarine w/ Conversion Beamer (I didn't know what to do with him, I wanted his bolster cover)
Psyfleman Dread
Librarian with Summoning, Shrouding, Sanctuary, grenades accompanied by:
5x Terminators w/ Psycannon, half hammers half halberds
Stormraven (TLAC, TLMM, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolt Ammo)
Dreadknight (Heavy Psycannon, Heavy Incin., Greatsword)
Crisis Commander + 1 Bodyguard, Cyclic Ion+TLMP and Plasma+TLMP, 2 Shield Drones
2x Missilesides, 1 Shield & 1 Missile Drone
6 Fire Warriors
Riptide w/ Ion Accelerator

He fielded:
Psycannon Grand Master
Librarian
20 Terminators
Techmarine w/ Conversion Beamer
Stormraven w/ TLLC, TLMM
2x Psyflemen


Being on the end that now has to shoot at an absurb number of terminators, I realized that I didn't put out enough firepower to hurt them. We were playing objectives, so he was using them to walk around and cap, rather than smash my face in. My dreadknight died incredibly fast from massed firepower of everything thrown at it, and my riptide died soon after. That basically left everything else unmolested though, so I guess they were nice (albeit expensive) fire magnets?

I was thinking of replacing my Stormraven with another DK, and giving both DKs teleport packs. There is something psychologically disturbing when there are that many MCs on the table walking towards you, I think lol. Also, kitting out my Tau allies with proper upgrade systems to turn my Crisis Commander team into an anti-air team.

The principle behind this list was a heavy shooting list that had scary MCs walking forward taking and dealing damage, while fast elements drop in behind them and use The Summoning to call the DK to butcher stuff. But my DK has never survived in any game I've tried that.

 Enigwolf wrote:
^ This is... actually a surprisingly well thought-out and solid list. I'm trying to poke holes in it, but coming up with very few because it's been catered for the current meta. And it theoretically works. I'm running on a similar principle of dropping something beefy in the opponent's backfield, scissoring them and forcing them to pick what to shoot at, and the few times it works, it works. I just need to work on my delivery system.

I'm kinda curious, why not run a wraithstar along with the draigostar?

Because wraiths need other fast units to take the heat off of them. With wraiths and paladins, the target priority becomes rather easy. Wraiths are more of a threat with their speed (at least initially) and since paladins are already so hard to kill, the wraithstar will become the clear obvious choice. And your wraithstar will be brought down by the VoF that this type of list is supposed to be resistant to. IMO, wraiths work better either in an MTO-type list (that's Maximum Threat Overload) where you have multiple fast threats to make target priority an issue or as a counter-assault unit in an otherwise shooty army to both threaten the enemy and to protect your own units.

Also, I feel that in order for the list to be truly Take-All-Comer's (TAC), you need shooting to address another of the weaknesses of paladins - being able to target multiple units. Without enough shooting, this list will have problems against MSU armies, MTO armies like daemons and flyer-necrons and fast armies like the new eldar or the necron airforce. Shooting helps to balance out the list as well as to fight against those type of armies. Wraiths will never be able to catch the new eldar (unless you spam them a la MTO-style) but guns can and will still hurt them. Basically, in a 2K list, after you take out Draigo and his paladins, you have less than 1K left fo the rest of the army. With that, I try to cram as much shooting as possible into my list.

 Dezstiny wrote:
@Jy2

The only problem I have with your build is that..... it's 2000pts and most games are played at 1500 to 1750. and that is alot of points- 2 ahnilation barges at 1750 and well I don't know how the build will be even relatively the same once it gets down to 1500

Unfortunately, that is one of the liabilities of a Draigowing list. It works better at higher points but the lower you go, the tougher it becomes to build a TAC list with it. It can still work at 1750, though 1500 is where its weaknesses start to become more apparent. This is probably what I would do at 1750 and 1500:


1750 Necrons + Draigowing

Destroyer Lord - 2+, MSS
Draigo

10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons, Banner, Stave
5x Necrons - Night Scythe
5x Necrons - Night Scythe

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

1735

You have 15-pts leftover for whatever you want to get.


1500 Necrons + Draigowing

Destroyer Lord - 2+, MSS
Draigo

5x Paladins - 2x Psycannons, Banner
5x Necrons - Night Scythe
5x Necrons - Night Scythe

6x Wraiths

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

1495


At 1500, it becomes harder for the opponent to deal with 2 deathstars so here, you can consider a unit of wraithstar to go with your mini-palistar.

 sudojoe wrote:

1) yep, but wasn't sure what the heck you were gonna do with the d.lord so I had no idea what was on it

2) While I attest that mass fire warriors would give Tau that sweet 3 shot thing at 15', this would involve taking things like etherals and mass infantry. I'm Seeing much more Ion accelerator Riptides which I'm pretty sure will be on tables. It both out ranges, out runs, and can lay down some nasty str 8 AP2 (minimally scattering ignore cover - if given the proper markerlight support it needs) I run that myself anyway. Yes, the palistar will take minimal casualties from my HYMP broadsides but they'd probably be plinking at the 2 necron fliers and or annhiliation barges if any get in range. I'd leave the riptides to fight the pallies. I think my sweet spot for my Tau build is actually more like 36' as I really don't have all that many fire warriors dismounted and 36' is where markerlights + missle broadsides and other missle pods are getting effective.

3/8) I completely agree that necrons in fliers is the way to go for objective grabbing. I do a ton of that but I've been having issues vs the new Mechdar builds that can bypass the palistar pretty easily as well as survive a ton of str 7 or 8 shooting with their annoying serpent shield and 3+ cover flat out save. Jetbikes from the new Eldar is also problematic with their always on cover save along with incredible speed (12' move + 24' flat out (turboboost)+ 2d6 assault move). They would completely bypass the palistar. With low numbers of scoring warriors from those scythes, it'd be tough to dislodge the jetbikers and they definitely can wipe out a 5 man squad in one round. With the shiruken rending, they might even be able to take out the solo'din in one round though I've not yet played this scenario on the table yet. Definitely good at blocking nids or other beasts/calvery/jet pack troops but not very good at blocking jetbikes though basically nothing in the game is other than weirdly enough horde armies where there is no place without some dudes.

I might be overblowing the Eldar here a bit but we have some long time Eldar players here who are quite good and with the new rules, I'm just too slow on the board to keep up with their super fast units as well as with their JSJ things or just straight up annoying wave serpents. I'm just glad no one's gone all wraithguard in ws's on me just yet. AP2 flamers would be annoying as hell on T6 3+ guys.

4) I've actually been thinking the same way on the apoc. I think I made the same recommendation a few posts back when someone was asking about him. I do like the guy and what he does for 10 man squads.

5) That's kind of clever actually. I had to go back to the necron codex to make sure he can even ride in a night scythe but lol and behold, he can. I might just have to borrow that one next time

6) 3 barges have held up well I'd admit and you should be able to do decently with them most game. I know I have but it just feels a bit light to me. Fire prisms or bike meltas or FMC can still make pretty short work of them though you do have some defenses vs the 2nd two things, I'm more worried about those cheap 5 point lances at BS 4 now a days. I've been out ranged many a times with the Annhiliation barges but I do admit, they are good vs squishies though I've lost my one psyfleman dread by turn 2 in the last 3 games vs Tau and about the same vs mechdar. I still really like him for the reinforced aegis non-the less. I'd probably use him in the same configuration you have as well. Incidentially the WK in default set up with the big lances are pretty sweet at dealing with some armor as well. I'd be careful of that thing too though the palistar probably has little to fear from it except that it can out range a lot of stuff.

7) I think for foot Tau, this is again true. I'm just not sure if it'd hold up vs Elite build. Incidentially, what would you be doing vs necron air force yourself? Pallies without divination is not all that stellar at anti-air. 2 night scythes would not stand up to a lot of return fire either though as you point out in 9), the annhiliation barge is probably what you forsee for this kind of role.

10) yep, completely agree on fireknife config. My big Tau tactical pretty much has my opinions on that. I run mostly pure missles or pure plasmas now with 2 weapons each when I do run crisis suits. (which I'll also admit, less often now that I have 3 riptides mwhahahaha) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/517337.page

Overall I think the list has a lot of merit and I look forward to seeing you in action with it Jy2. I really do want to see what you can do with it vs a mech-eldar or jetbike or heck at 2k points you might get a bit of both in there.

Draigowing will still have its weaknesses. It can be hurt by a triple-iontide Tau list just as Tau can be hurt by a triple-manticore/vendetta IG list. But it is not even close to an auto-lose situation. It might be a slightly uphill battle but it is a battle that is still quite winnable for them. I've seen Draigowing builds persevere over triple doom-scythe necrons, triple-vendetta IG, MSU razorspam lists and other lists where they considered a underdog army. You just have to play more strategically than to just march up and get shot up. Deployment is important. Try to deploy so that Draigo will be the one taking the wounds against as many of the AP2 shots/riptides as possible. With 3++ and 5+ FNP. Then focus your AB's, night scythes and psyfleman on the dreadknights. VoF is what will take them down just as it will take down dreadknights. You also get a little help from the riptide's own overcharging, which should do 1-2W of damage on average to the riptide itself (and if they're not over-charging, then their shooting isn't nearly as scary to the paladins). You can also drop your D-lord to threaten those tides and force them to focus on him if you really need to (heck, I almost feel that I need to get a Res Orb for this).

Jetbikes are a thing of beauty, which is why you need shooting to deal with them. Don't think that you will assault them. But with 3 AB's, the psyfleman and your night scythes, it is not as easy for them to hide/get away from your shooting. Let your vehicles deal with them. The palistar should be dealing with the rest of the army. With necrons, I've never had problems taking out those jetbikes and they are usually a priority target for me. As for eldar bladestorming, that's why I've added an Apothecary to the unit at 2K. He'll give them some extra protection against eldar shooting.

AB's are quite resistant to ranged shooting and if you opponent wants to take them out with melta-units or FMC's, they're going to have to move within the threat range of your paladins as generally, your paladins should be between the enemies and the barges. And if eldar wants to fire brightlances into those barges, that's 1 less brightlance firing into the paladinstar that could potentially insta-gib a paladin. The dreadnought is a weak point but the shooting and buffs that he brings is worth it IMO.

Versus Cronair, the only thing you can do is to shoot them down. AB's are excellent at killing other night scythes and their AV13 makes them practically immune to enemy tesla destructors. You then try to outlast the flyers with your paladins. That really is all you can do. With 2+, 2W each and 5+ FNP, that shouldn't be a problem.

In short, this type of list isn't perfect, but it doesn't need to be. You have to play against the meta and the current meta is infantry-killing. Most noteably of the MEQ variety. Sure there are guns that can kill TEQ's (2+ save models), but the majority of the shooting is basically small-arms. Paladins stand a better chance against this over standard infantry. Because anyone who builds their TAC lists specifically to take on Draigowing will have problems against all of the newer armies - daemons, necrons, tau and eldar. Also, the majority of the shooting nowadays is S6/7 - plasmas, necrons teslas, tau missile pods, eldar shuricannons/scatter lasers, etc. That is where AV13 vehicles excel against. Yes, there are many "stuff" that can kill paladins and AV13 vehicles, but with a TAC army, you are playing the odds against what you think is the current trend in competitive army builds at the tournament level. At least that is my philosophy on list building. I always design them with the assumption of what builds I think will be a pre-dominant competitive tournament build.

Ok, just had a test game with my 2K Necron-GK list (see above for the list) against my teammate, Janthkin's Chaos-chaos list. He ran:

Fateweaver
Tzeetnch Herald w/upgrades (Grimoire)
Slaanesh Herald on steed w/upgrades
Black Mace CSM Daemon Prince

6x Fiends of Slaanesh

18x Daemonettes
12x Daemonettes
16x Pink Horrors
10x Cultists w/Autoguns

Heldrake
18x Seekers of Slaanesh


We played an ATC scenario - it was Crusade, Emperor's Will & Purge the Alien all at the same time (as well as scoring heavy supports which was determined pre-game). My opponent was poised to assault my paladinstar with his DP, fiends and seekers and then ran into a bit of bad luck. First off, I kill off his DP with 2++ Invuln (from Forewarning + Grimoire) with Overwatch, though he only had 1W left at the time. Then his seekers fail a 5" charge even with re-rolls due to fleet and that sealed the deal. I ended up winning 30-2.

I actually ran a pure grey knight list at a local tournament. I was banking on a meta change away from flyers and more xeno foot slogging armys and I was right (tau makes flyers cry). The tournament was 2250 and my army list was-
Coteaz- blank inquisitor- 4 psyback with 4 warrior in each- 2 full interceptor squad kitted out- 1 5man interceptor flamer- 3 psydread- and 3 dreadknight flamer with jump.
The list worked very well(I won the tournament) it's a very intimidating list and the flamers roast xeno like nothing. All 3 army I played was xeno tau/eldar, orcs, and new eldar serpent spam.

 jy2 wrote:
Ok, just had a test game with my 2K Necron-GK list (see above for the list) against my teammate, Janthkin's Chaos-chaos list. He ran:

Fateweaver
Tzeetnch Herald w/upgrades (Grimoire)
Slaanesh Herald on steed w/upgrades
Black Mace CSM Daemon Prince

6x Fiends of Slaanesh

18x Daemonettes
12x Daemonettes
16x Pink Horrors
10x Cultists w/Autoguns

Heldrake
18x Seekers of Slaanesh


We played an ATC scenario - it was Crusade, Emperor's Will & Purge the Alien all at the same time (as well as scoring heavy supports which was determined pre-game). My opponent was poised to assault my paladinstar with his DP, fiends and seekers and then ran into a bit of bad luck. First off, I kill off his DP with 2++ Invuln (from Forewarning + Grimoire) with Overwatch, though he only had 1W left at the time. Then his seekers fail a 5" charge even with re-rolls due to fleet and that sealed the deal. I ended up winning 30-2.

very nice but I think FMC would have had trouble vs this kind of list too but still nice. The 5' failed charge even with fleet is pretty brutal. Average is like I think around 7' even through terrain

I actually ran a pure grey knight list at a local tournament. I was banking on a meta change away from flyers and more xeno foot slogging armys and I was right (tau makes flyers cry). The tournament was 2250 and my army list was-
Coteaz- blank inquisitor- 4 psyback with 4 warrior in each- 2 full interceptor squad kitted out- 1 5man interceptor flamer- 3 psydread- and 3 dreadknight flamer with jump.
The list worked very well(I won the tournament) it's a very intimidating list and the flamers roast xeno like nothing. All 3 army I played was xeno tau/eldar, orcs, and new eldar serpent spam.

I'm liking the interceptors a lot more now a days too just to have the positions that I want them to be at. 2250 is a kind of high points list for a tourney. Must have been a blood bath lol. Btw, what did you use for the interceptor loadout? pyscannons + psybolt and some hammer for justicar? Or you went with incinerator burn style?

Interceptor load out was x2 psycannon +psybolt. In the end I didn't have enough point for the hammer. Would have helped a bit but having hammer hand and hitting back armor 10 you need 5 and 6s. I have a theory going on ( in my local meta) since tau has come out a lot of players have stayed away from flyer list because of intercept and sky fire. And they are going to go back to on the board army's so less and less flyers and drop pod army's.

What are you guys using for reliable troops choices nowadays? Strikes seem to be out of the option due to all the AP3s around, and Henchies are just so squishy. Putting them in vehicles doesn't help either.

I've been running terminator based lists with some success.

 Enigwolf wrote:
What are you guys using for reliable troops choices nowadays? Strikes seem to be out of the option due to all the AP3s around, and Henchies are just so squishy. Putting them in vehicles doesn't help either.

Hench in razor worked well for me I can reserve the razors if I really need to and the threat factor of 3 dreadknight roasting troops and 3 interceptors in your face is very scary it forces you to engage them in some way so in the end your troops for the most part will be ignored. Again it all depends on how much pressure you put on the enemy lines how you troops will survive.