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Conflagration wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
What are you guys using for reliable troops choices nowadays? Strikes seem to be out of the option due to all the AP3s around, and Henchies are just so squishy. Putting them in vehicles doesn't help either.

Hench in razor worked well for me I can reserve the razors if I really need to and the threat factor of 3 dreadknight roasting troops and 3 interceptors in your face is very scary it forces you to engage them in some way so in the end your troops for the most part will be ignored. Again it all depends on how much pressure you put on the enemy lines how you troops will survive.

I was looking at using this, or allied Tau in beefed up Devilfish (4+ jink) and outflanking Kroot. Thoughts on this?

Conflagration wrote:I actually ran a pure grey knight list at a local tournament. I was banking on a meta change away from flyers and more xeno foot slogging armys and I was right (tau makes flyers cry). The tournament was 2250 and my army list was-
Coteaz- blank inquisitor- 4 psyback with 4 warrior in each- 2 full interceptor squad kitted out- 1 5man interceptor flamer- 3 psydread- and 3 dreadknight flamer with jump.
The list worked very well(I won the tournament) it's a very intimidating list and the flamers roast xeno like nothing. All 3 army I played was xeno tau/eldar, orcs, and new eldar serpent spam.

crusaders actually still work pretty well with me but they are kind of expensive. Also, running behind tanks sorta work too. I like it when they just wreck as it serves as cover since it's still there to block LOS.

Conflagration wrote:
I actually ran a pure grey knight list at a local tournament. I was banking on a meta change away from flyers and more xeno foot slogging armys and I was right (tau makes flyers cry). The tournament was 2250 and my army list was-
Coteaz- blank inquisitor- 4 psyback with 4 warrior in each- 2 full interceptor squad kitted out- 1 5man interceptor flamer- 3 psydread- and 3 dreadknight flamer with jump.
The list worked very well(I won the tournament) it's a very intimidating list and the flamers roast xeno like nothing. All 3 army I played was xeno tau/eldar, orcs, and new eldar serpent spam.

The meta at our store has been like that. I have a feeling we both go to the same FLGS since some players I know told me about the same list you ran! It sounds terrifying for pretty much all of the new books. Everyone still seems to think foot slogging your whole army is really good. Nice way to take advantage of that! Its nice to see GK win the tournament at the store for once.

I'm going to try running a no-Stormraven (following your meta!), high threat-saturation list tomorrow with 2 reserved Firewarrior squads in the highly-mobile devilfishes with Dreadknights and a Riptide. I'll post some feedback on using that tomorrow!

 Enigwolf wrote:
I'm going to try running a no-Stormraven (following your meta!), high threat-saturation list tomorrow with 2 reserved Firewarrior squads in the highly-mobile devilfishes with Dreadknights and a Riptide. I'll post some feedback on using that tomorrow!

Honestly, to me that doesn't sound like a very good idea. Devilfishes are expensive and neither really highly resilient nor highly mobile (no more so than just a regular rhino in terms of mobility). But if you're going to run them, I'd suggest bringing along an Ethereal. Also, you don't always have to reserve them, depending on what type of ranged AT your opponent has and what else you've got in your army. Just keep in mind that sometimes, it may just be better to leave them deployed along with the rest of your army.

 jy2 wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I'm going to try running a no-Stormraven (following your meta!), high threat-saturation list tomorrow with 2 reserved Firewarrior squads in the highly-mobile devilfishes with Dreadknights and a Riptide. I'll post some feedback on using that tomorrow!

Honestly, to me that doesn't sound like a very good idea. Devilfishes are expensive and neither really highly resilient nor highly mobile (no more so than just a regular rhino in terms of mobility). But if you're going to run them, I'd suggest bringing along an Ethereal. Also, you don't always have to reserve them, depending on what type of ranged AT your opponent has and what else you've got in your army. Just keep in mind that sometimes, it may just be better to leave them deployed along with the rest of your army.

Yeah, I realized the same after looking at my Codex: Tau once more. For some reason I had it gotten in my head that skimmers move faster, but I had got that confused with fast skimmers. Also, disruption pods are not cheap. Back to the drawing board... I'm just having a frustrating time being able to reliably field troop choices that are mobile and durable to claim objectives, and terminators are just not cutting it for me with their points costs.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I'm going to try running a no-Stormraven (following your meta!), high threat-saturation list tomorrow with 2 reserved Firewarrior squads in the highly-mobile devilfishes with Dreadknights and a Riptide. I'll post some feedback on using that tomorrow!

Honestly, to me that doesn't sound like a very good idea. Devilfishes are expensive and neither really highly resilient nor highly mobile (no more so than just a regular rhino in terms of mobility). But if you're going to run them, I'd suggest bringing along an Ethereal. Also, you don't always have to reserve them, depending on what type of ranged AT your opponent has and what else you've got in your army. Just keep in mind that sometimes, it may just be better to leave them deployed along with the rest of your army.

Yeah, I realized the same after looking at my Codex: Tau once more. For some reason I had it gotten in my head that skimmers move faster, but I had got that confused with fast skimmers. Also, disruption pods are not cheap. Back to the drawing board... I'm just having a frustrating time being able to reliably field troop choices that are mobile and durable to claim objectives, and terminators are just not cutting it for me with their points costs.

For Tau, it's better to ally them for their strengths, which is more firepower. If you want mobile troops, you may have to look elsewhere (necrons, biker marines, maybe eldar jetbikes assuming they are allies of convenience - don't have my book with me) or just put scoring units in ravens.

Yes, Eldar are AoC to GK -- the reason you never saw them together before now was because the old Runes of Warding really got in the way of GK squads doing their thing. The silver lining in the RoW nerf means that now, Eldar Allies to GK actually can be a thing. In fact, I'm bringing some of them (GK w/ Eldar Allies) to some games tomorrow. Trying out a Spiritseer + 5 Wraithguard in a Wave Serpent and seeing how that goes with GK Stuff.

The list right now is something like (1500):

Coteaz
Spiritseer

5 Wraithguard (w/ Cannons) in a Serpent
2x 10 man Strike Squads w/ Psycannons & Psybolt & whatever
Plasma Cannon Servitor Henchmen Unit (w/ ablative Acolytes)
2x Psyfleman Dreads
ADL w/ Comms

Hello guys ..Sorry to bother you but I can't find an entry for that :

In FAQ it states that the daemonhammer has the "daemonbane" special rule..My question is what is "daemonbane" ?? Is it like fleshbane but for daemons , meaning I always wound daemons on a 2+ ?

Thanks in advance

 Spectral wrote:
Hello guys ..Sorry to bother you but I can't find an entry for that :

In FAQ it states that the daemonhammer has the "daemonbane" special rule..My question is what is "daemonbane" ?? Is it like fleshbane but for daemons , meaning I always wound daemons on a 2+ ?

Thanks in advance

P54 of the GK codex - and daemon or psyker that gets wounded must take a leadership test at the end of the assault phase. If failed, the model is removed as a casualty. Doesn't matter if you have force or anything else actually.

I think it was one game wayyyy back in 5th when a necron lord MSS'ed a paladin and hit draigo who was also in the squad. I failed a save and then boxcar'ed my ldr check causing draigo to be instantly removed lol. It was kind of silly but doesn't honestly happen all that much. Maybe more useful if I ever got to charge nids.


I'm also secretly getting some more Eldar to go with my GK. Shhhh don't tell my Tau. they'll get jealous.

Had a 3 round mini-tournament today and my fun GK + sisters list actually ended up winning.
Basic run down was:

coteaz + 2 jokaero + 2 bolter henchmen + 2 plasma cannon servitors
Sitting on top of a bastion with the Icarus las cannon. (using prescience + w/e other divination power was useful)

Bastion HB turret was manned by a 5 man retributory squad with 4 heavy bolters (as each firing point allows 2 units to shoot through it, it was 5 possibly rending heavy bolters firing each turn)

5 man strike squad with psycannon just for warp quake (hiding most times)

10 gal sisters squad with multi-melta + meltagun

St. Celestine + 5 seraphrim with 2 hand flamers

DK with incinerator and teleporter.
Dreadnaught with AC+psybolts

Storm raven with Multi-melta and lascannon

It's kind of a silly list but was generally pretty sturdy. Bastion with the strike squad nearby holds down a corner while the foot sisters generally support the psyfleman on a middle flank while the DK + sisters are going up 12' or just deep striking (the sisters anyway - and then the DK shunts near them to be my far flank with hopefully the strom raven providing some support fire / anti-tank.)

I thought it was kind of a soft list since I have no redundancy and not all that many models or a particularly deadly thing going on but some people thought it was cheese anyway. I'll admit that I've run this list about 80+ times as I judge it to be a fairly good trainer list to provide some threat at every level and practice against myself with it too to see if I got what it takes at all different targets and ranges. It faced off against mech guard with vendettas and survived. It blew up noisemarine + double drakes + oblits (actually tabled him by turn 5) - I got lucky here with getting ignore cover + prescience and jokearo's 5++ invul saved quite a few times. His blast masters actually hit most times. The last round was vs the new Eldar who was taking a melee MC build (experimental - which actually won his prior 2 games handidly killing off draigowing and double heldrakes.)

It took about 4 units shooting the wraithknight over 3 turns to kill it finally (AC dread + coteaz's prescience squad + storm raven by turn 2 + retributor squad trying to get rend's and 6's in general) to down it. It's definitely beastly to take out with conventional fire power) Got lucky and interceptor fired down his crimson hunter and a jetbike squad failed 2 morale saves ( but stayed on the board) but the rest the flamers took care of.

Anyways, just wanted to share. I'm pretty convinced that my biggest contribution to success here was that I've literally run this list into the ground as my tester list and learning what to do with everything is still going to be the biggest contributor to if you can do well with a list or not.

Next phase, build 20 more interceptors. Post game, I realized that the above was already doing the interceptor shunt albeit with just 2/3 units. St. Celestine + flamer serpahrim + incinerator DK into the backfield has pretty much cleaned house for me each time. (although the DK did die turn 2 vs the IG lol. Fire on my target with a 30 man blob with Autocannons and then 3 chimeras and melta vets and plasma command squad and another plasma squad took it down in one go with 12 armor saves + 6 invul saves)

I'm actually surprised your Bastion lasted so long against mechguard with vendettas... Did the player forget that he could blow up to Bastion?

First off, congrats on your RTT. You don't necessarily need an uber-GK list or even a spam-list to win. Experience and really knowing how to utilize your army goes a long ways. And it helps that probably most opponents don't know how your list works.

 sudojoe wrote:

I'm also secretly getting some more Eldar to go with my GK. Shhhh don't tell my Tau. they'll get jealous.

I'm also thinking of running Eldar allies with my GK's now that RoW won't screw my own army over.

This is what I am thinking:

Coteaz
Farseer - Jetbike - 115

3x Henchmen - Razorback w/TL-Assault Cannon+Psybolt - 97
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/TL-Assault Cannon+Psybolt - 97
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/TL-Assault Cannon+Psybolt - 97
3x Henchmen - 12
5x Dire Avengers - Wave Serpent w/Scatter Lasers + Holofields - 200
3x Guardian Jetbikes - 1x Shuricannon - 61

Stormraven - TL-AC, TL-MM, Hurricane Botlers, Psybolt - 255

Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Teleporter - 235
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Teleporter - 235
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Teleporter - 235
Wraithknight

1979

At 1750, I'd probably either drop the stormraven + 3x henchmen or 1 dreadknight.

What do the Eldar really bring to that list? I'd much rather have Tau since you cannot cast guide/prescience on your GKs.

One of the weaknesses of the GK's is a lack of mobile scoring units, especially of the cheap variety. Eldar with their jetbikes (or wave serpents) addresses that issue. Also, the wraithknight is a cool model and I think he will work well with the dreadknights. The farseer can buff his own units, especially guide/prescience on the wraithknight.

I guess I just feel that there are much better allied options for GK. Tau being one of them.

It really depends on what kind of list you are building. Tau are great allies for a gunline build while taking a few counter attack/warpquake assets with you for GK detatchment. The reverse would make it too assault and if you want more shooting alone, take pure Tau or IG. Or possibly with eldar allies to help with more shooting.

The GK/Eldar build above actually has some good synergy. Having played quite a lot of fast MC's, having 4 of these things flying into your face with str 10 AP2 attacks, really sturdy, and all moving at 12' or 30' shunts, puts pressure on an enemy gunline really fast. Even as a pure Tau gunline, It'd be hard to kill all 4 tough MC's in one or two rounds of shooting. Coteaz lets you reroll to try and seize so you may not be getting the first turn which lets these guys close before you get a 3rd shooting phase and then they will be in your lines.

Granted I only had a small partial gunline but it still took me about 3 turns of shooting to just down the one wraith knight with rerollable las cannons + rending HB's and other str 8 weapons along with needing my air assets to focus on it from turn 2 on. Shunting DK's into my backfield by turn 2 would incinerate quite a bit of my firepower and also need me to refocus my target priority which further lets things close. Incinerators would be very dangerous to things like pathfinders/marker drones because I can choose the position my flamer comes from (as I can move much further for my turn) and will be able to flame them and ignore any iridium suit commander you may have up front.

The monster mash here will be succeptable to tarpit armies and fliers spam or MSS spam I suppose from enough D.lords but would be a big threat to most things out there including riptides. You'd need some very specific misslesides with attached puretide commander giving monster hunter to be able to down these guys easily enough or possibly with enough crisis double plasma teams but a riptide would not actually do that well vs these things before they close. (especially if you are taking the IA which will still need 3's to wound the GK's and needs 5's to wound wraith knight)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I'm actually surprised your Bastion lasted so long against mechguard with vendettas... Did the player forget that he could blow up to Bastion?

I got lucky too and got forewarning and while we're not sure on the legalities, was allowed to cast it on the bastion since I had people inside manning it so hey, it survived 6 manticore strikes only getting 2 glances I only actually saved just one pen, nothing much else happened to it. Also lascannons are actually kind of bad vs the bastion since it still needs 5's to even glance it which just results in a wound to people inside. You can only really destroy it with meltas and rolling 5's on the explosion chart. Pretty sturdy building!

I find the Wraithknight to be very lack luster and would much prefer to have a Riptide, which compares favorably in speed.

 LValx wrote:
I guess I just feel that there are much better allied options for GK. Tau being one of them.

It's not so much as which ally is better for the knights as it is what type of playstyle you want?

For me, I envision 4 fast and tough MC's controlling the board whereas my other units just shoot away. It may not be the most optimized build, but if you think it isn't a tough build to play against, you may be in for a surprise. But more importantly, IMO it looks like a fun build to play, at least to me.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LValx wrote:
I find the Wraithknight to be very lack luster and would much prefer to have a Riptide, which compares favorably in speed.

They serve different purposes. The riptide is a good shooter (especially with Markerlight support) and can give you either good anti-TEQ firepower or some anti-flyer firepower. The wraithknight is used more to control the board as an all-around threat and has decent AT, especially when buffed up by a farseer.

The wraithknight by his lonesome may be lack luster, but when he is used in conjunction with other units, can be effective. In any case, he is a fire magnet that will keep the heat off of the scoring vehicles as he attracts all the high-strength shots.

Yeah, I understand the thought process. I just find the WK to be a bit overpriced for what you get. He's sub par in combat, sub par at shooting. I find the Riptide to mesh well with DKs as well since they are both 2+ MCs that are fast and can shoot pretty infantry very well.

 LValx wrote:
Yeah, I understand the thought process. I just find the WK to be a bit overpriced for what you get. He's sub par in combat, sub par at shooting. I find the Riptide to mesh well with DKs as well since they are both 2+ MCs that are fast and can shoot pretty infantry very well.

So are tervigons. So is a Tau commander without any guns but with a lot of the other gadgets instead.

Some units may not be the best offensive unit, but what they provide to the army is a lot of tactical flexibility and strategic options. The wraithknight may not be the best fighter or best shooter, but to many opponents he is a threat and a very dangerous one, both to their tanks, to their infantry and to their characters.

The Riptide is such a good unit that it can work well with almost any allies. However, strategically, while he is a good shooter, he doesn't provide the threat to the opponent as 3 dreadknights and a wraithknight advancing towards the enemy does. That doesn't mean he is bad, it just means that you need to play these 2 lists much, much differently strategy-wise.

So, GK with Eldar or GK with Tau?

 Enigwolf wrote:
So, GK with Eldar or GK with Tau?

Either is good. It really depends on which you like. I'm used to playing fast, aggressive armies and to me, the eldar fits in perfectly with that.

Tau + GK makes for a very dangerous and shooty army that can potentially blow most enemies away.

I feel that you can't really lose with either. It's a win-win for the knights.

I don't have a copy of the Eldar 'dex, so I'm thinking about picking it up. I'm just wondering about the abilities of the Wraithknight and if it's a viable inclusion. The debate on here and thus far been too inconclusive for me to decide.

 jy2 wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Yeah, I understand the thought process. I just find the WK to be a bit overpriced for what you get. He's sub par in combat, sub par at shooting. I find the Riptide to mesh well with DKs as well since they are both 2+ MCs that are fast and can shoot pretty infantry very well.

So are tervigons. So is a Tau commander without any guns but with a lot of the other gadgets instead.

Some units may not be the best offensive unit, but what they provide to the army is a lot of tactical flexibility and strategic options. The wraithknight may not be the best fighter or best shooter, but to many opponents he is a threat and a very dangerous one, both to their tanks, to their infantry and to their characters.

The Riptide is such a good unit that it can work well with almost any allies. However, strategically, while he is a good shooter, he doesn't provide the threat to the opponent as 3 dreadknights and a wraithknight advancing towards the enemy does. That doesn't mean he is bad, it just means that you need to play these 2 lists much, much differently strategy-wise.

I had a good discussion with a friend of mine that is big into a lot of forge world stuff that I haven't explored nearly as much. When I brought up the MC mash list he basically showed me an IG entry for the armored fist squadron that made me go wow. 15 point upgrade for HQ vanquisher tanks - Beast Hunter shells, 72' str 8 ap2, 3' blast - instant death.... This is usually going to be a Bs4 shot which might have hatred from own armored group buffs or can get divination from allies or just straight up twin link itself from coaxial storm bolter fire.

I had to do a quick double take and was amazed that this thing existed. Riptide overcharge that shield harder might be the better way here lol. On the other hand... it is IG armored battle group. I've never actually seen one taken at a tournament yet and we allow forgeworld here.

Armored Battle Groups are just incredibly hard to play with so few troops choices around...

Very true which is why you take them as allies :-)

ABGs with Elysian Drop Troops... Now you just gave me a really nasty idea sudojoe.

Anyways, back to my original question. Do you see extensive uses for Eldar allies compared to Tau? Would it be worth my investment to pick up a copy of the Codex for that purpose? (No intention to start an Eldar army)

 Enigwolf wrote:
ABGs with Elysian Drop Troops... Now you just gave me a really nasty idea sudojoe.

Anyways, back to my original question. Do you see extensive uses for Eldar allies compared to Tau? Would it be worth my investment to pick up a copy of the Codex for that purpose? (No intention to start an Eldar army)

I had to do some test games to see what my answer to this would be and after much soul searching I'd have to say yes.

It's a totally different playstyle mind you so it's not going to be for everyone. My Eldar contingent is also very selective and favors my take on them though I have fought against and can see the strength of many other builds.

Tau+GK is a great gunline with deepstrike protection and some good anti-cc abilities provided by the GK. I think it's probably the most optimal use for GK+Tau builds as there's not a whole lot of different things in general you can do with them. Tau are not mobile enough to dependably get to the enemy backfield. They can't really support assault and if you do lock things in assault with say a DK, then you just invalidated your allies abilities to shoot potentially. Gunline at its finest however and realistically can shoot most things to death and counters quite a few tactics hard.

Eldar GK is very different beast. I use mine completely based on speed and is very refreshing to play from the gunlines after a while. Also more fun most times for my opponents. People get pretty upset with interceptor but if they fail to kill or wound, it feels more like their fault and so they don't start yelling at me lol.

JY2's build above is a good example as it is very fast and can put pressure on targets that you want. I think it works and will do well unless you got stupid things like the armored battle group and monster hunter shells...

I personally have changed my mind so many times on the combo and so far enjoy just fast things though not as competitive. If I go GK main, I can't really benefit all that much from just a single farseer that can't even buff my own guys so I've been taking 2 rolls on the telepathy tree along with one on the divination tree most times. I also can't take warlock councils. So if you are building a detatchment, consider spirit seers (thought is a bit tougher to use from the ld9) Wraith knights and DK's really do synergize quite well. I enjoy proxying mine still (gawd so expensive for a single model that's not even Apoc) With the Lyanden supplement, you can consider spamming the telepathy tree which has some really nice powers that can be very game changing. Just need to get them into range with at least 1-2 wave serpents.

Warpsiders are also stupidly fast as are jetbikes which can further cause havock to support GK shunt moves. The Fao'chu's wing thing is also kind of a crazy wargear that lets something run 48' like a super reusable shunt (though you can't shoot) along with a mantle of the laughing god which can make something like a geared up autuch like a mini-MC by himself that's also crazy fast. Wave serpents in general can get other units you want into position by turn 2 fairly reliably. Some DK's to flame hordes and some wraithguard with str 10 ap2 guns to blow up tanks and thus allow you to flame them some more. There is some random synergy with the runes of battle as well if you get the one that decreases enemy armor saves, you can insta kill quite a lot with the heavy incinerator now.

Essentially it boils down to this:

GK+Tau = gunline and GK offers gunline support for the most part. I don't see too many variations that would go beyond this overall strat.
GK + Eldar = can do a Gunline but I think Tau does it better
GK + Fast Eldar = plays more like a shunt type list (probably best ally for this kind of build) but can also just use the Eldar as late game mobility scoring as that's one thing GK doesn't do well with if you feel like keeping your GK gunline.

A bit off the current subject, but related.

I've got a (relatively) large IG army and am looking to support it with some GK allies. Warp Quake and some CC ability should be beneficial to a big IG gunline (though mine is mechanized). Here's my thoughts so far:

Lord Commissar - 75 pts
Melta bombs

Veteran Squad - 175 pts
3x Meltagun, Lascannon, Chimera

Veteran Squad - 175 pts
3x Meltagun, Lascannon, Chimera

Veteran Squad - 175 pts
3x Meltagun, Lascannon, Chimera

Ordnance Battery - 140 pts
1x Medusa, Bastion-breacher shells

Ordnance Battery - 140 pts
1x Medusa, Bastion-breacher shells

Leman Russ Squadron - 190 pts
1x Executioner


Inquisitor Coteaz - 100 pts

Strike Squad - 240 pts
5 add'l Grey Knights, 2x Psycannon, Psybolt

Strike Squad - 240 pts
5 add'l Grey Knights, 2x Psycannon, Psybolt


Aegis Defense Line - 100 pts
Quad-gun


What's the opinion on what two Strike Squads bring to a mech'd gunline?