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Pilau Rice wrote:

Pacific wrote:Fulgrim's moment of realisation of what his legion has become at the end of that book.

Reflection Crack'd, although I am glad to havehim back, definitely ruined this notion, if we are to take it at face value. It would have been better imho that Fulgrim recognised what Slaanesh could offer on Istvaan and allowed the possession to occur. Better yet, why just not have the whole possession at all. Fulgrims fall was supposed to be one of the most bitter and disgusting corruptions by Horus, it failed at portraying anything like this, But I digress.

I agree.. Reflection Crack'd was appalling, and I really don't know what McNeil was thinking when he wrote it. You are right, it completely destroyed Fulgrim, making its most powerful and emotional elements (and perhaps the entire story arc of the book) mean nothing.

I often wonder at the power of sequels, to be so bad that they can actually damage what has come before (Terminator 3, the Alien vs. Predator movies etc.) It makes me wish it was possibly to selectively erase parts of your memory

Pacific wrote:[
I think that the Emperor creating the Legion, but then them suffering serious mishap, might have given him cause to doubt the omnipotence of his father. And upon learning that Horus planned to rebel, and that everything his father had worked to accomplish might be destroyed, in his own mind he had no choice but to disobey his father in order to offset a much greater tragedy occurring. For the greater good in a way, except of course it didn't turn out to be such a small transgression..

Pilau Rice wrote:No man, the Emperor made the flaw himself, he needed Magnus to sit on the Throne but knew he wouldn't leave his Sons, so built in a timebomb that would destroy the Legion and give Magnus purpose to go on, assisting the Imperium and mankind

Haha interesting, very interesting!

I do think the writers of the series are now playing a bit of a dangerous game with the background, and I hope they have the ideas of how to proceed firmly mapped out between them. Of course historically the Emperor has been portrayed as a benevolent, almost angelic, figure who only had the best interests of mankind at heart. But, that was before they started to pad things out, and the sequence of events needed more attention. Now we are starting to realise that, well, perhaps he wasn't the diamond geezer that everyone thought he was - the ultimate pragmatist and utilitarian, he has destroyed as much as he has created. But, what were his real objectives? Will BL leave the fans guessing, or leave more obvious clues (of the Blood Raven -> Thousand Son kind?), or will it be like Horus turning against the Emperor and everyone wondering "hang on a moment.. why are they fighting each other again?!"

I suppose there is the potential for them to upset a large amount of the readership depending on what course they take. Remember the furore when the Collected Visions books described Fulgrim plonking Ferrus Mannus' head on the table in front of Horus ("it's FFG games, not GW, its not canon!" - who knew there were so many Iron Hands collectors? ), or Gav Thorpe's Immortal line of "he was waiting to see which side won", as spoken by the Lion? The amount of nerd-rage at that one almost caused certain sections of forums to close down, with numerous declarations of fatwah announced. The point being that GW's sci-fi universe, being more than 20 years old now, has been pretty well developed. Enough for its many fans to already have found the thing they like most in it - their own niche within the universe if you like - anything too revelatory, too groundbreaking, could potentially upset a large percentage of the readership.

It's why I hope beyond hope that any further detailing of the Emperor, and his desires, get put into the hands of either ADB or Abnett. The latter in particular has shown he can introduce new and exciting elements into the background (Legion, Prospero Burns etc.) without behaving like a wrecking ball and turning character's motivations on their head (I'm looking at you, Gav Thorpe ) McNeil I think got it right with Fulgrim (until Reflection Crack'd, when he inexplicably dropped a pile of TNT on his own previous work), and a Thousand Sons, but seemed to miss the giant elephant in the room entirely with Horus and False Gods. So, perhaps he wouldn't be the best choice for writing about the Emperor either.. (that's if its done at all)..

I think the Emperor's ultimate goal is pretty simple: the survival of mankind, which can only be insured by mankind's utter dominance over the material and immaterial aspects of the galaxy. Well, maybe I should have said that I think his goal is simply stated. Achieving it is obviously very convoluted -- engineering a deal with the Chaos Gods to cause a galaxy-wide conflict as a smoke screen for your real plans ... it's ... complicated. In my view, the GrimDark is not what happens after the Great Crusade fails; it's actually the achievement of the Great Crusade. Yes, the Imperium is the very best that mankind can do against a hostile universe. That's the first level of horror of 40k. The second level of horror is that mankind has actually done pretty fething well considering we're up against countless hordes of bizarre aliens and even daemons and gods -- i.e., of all the terrible things in the galaxy, humans are arguably the worst.

Pacific wrote:
I agree.. Reflection Crack'd was appalling, and I really don't know what McNeil was thinking when he wrote it. You are right, it completely destroyed Fulgrim, making its most powerful and emotional elements (and perhaps the entire story arc of the book) mean nothing.

I recognise that Fulgrim is a great and well written book, but I do not like it, one bit. OK, maybe a little, but only a little.

Pacific wrote:I often wonder at the power of sequels, to be so bad that they can actually damage what has come before (Terminator 3, the Alien vs. Predator movies etc.) It makes me wish it was possibly to selectively erase parts of your memory

Well with GW's stance on fluff, you can pick and choose what you want apparently, it's all just chinese whispers

Pacific wrote:I do think the writers of the series are now playing a bit of a dangerous game with the background, and I hope they have the ideas of how to proceed firmly mapped out between them. Of course historically the Emperor has been portrayed as a benevolent, almost angelic, figure who only had the best interests of mankind at heart. But, that was before they started to pad things out, and the sequence of events needed more attention. Now we are starting to realise that, well, perhaps he wasn't the diamond geezer that everyone thought he was - the ultimate pragmatist and utilitarian, he has destroyed as much as he has created. But, what were his real objectives? Will BL leave the fans guessing, or leave more obvious clues (of the Blood Raven & Thousand Son kind?), or will it be like Horus turning against the Emperor and everyone wondering hang on a moment.. why are they fighting each other again?

I don't think we will get an amazing amount of the Emperor, maybe the last book will be told from Lokens perspective. I was there the day the Emperor slew Horus.

Deliverance Lost maybe gave a bit too much of him, the little piece of him in Nemesis didn't give too much away and left him suitably regal but unknown.

Pacific wrote:suppose there is the potential for them to upset a large amount of the readership depending on what course they take. Remember the furore when the Collected Visions books described Fulgrim plonking Ferrus Mannus' head on the table in front of Horus ("it's FFG games, not GW, its not canon!" - who knew there were so many Iron Hands collectors? ), or Gav Thorpe's Immortal line of "he was waiting to see which side won", as spoken by the Lion? The amount of nerd-rage at that one almost caused certain sections of forums to close down, with numerous declarations of fatwah announced. The point being that GW's sci-fi universe, being more than 20 years old now, has been pretty well developed. Enough for its many fans to already have found the thing they like most in it - their own niche within the universe if you like - anything too revelatory, too groundbreaking, could potentially upset a large percentage of the readership.

They maybe should not have touched it at all, something so big and so mysterious should have been left as a rumour, a legend of older, darker times. I'm glad that they have undertaken it, but I am underwhelmed and a bit disheartened by it all. I'll keep reading but will keep moaning where necessary.

Pacific wrote:It's why I hope beyond hope that any further detailing of the Emperor, and his desires, get put into the hands of either ADB or Abnett. The latter in particular has shown he can introduce new and exciting elements into the background (Legion, Prospero Burns etc.) without behaving like a wrecking ball and turning character's motivations on their head (I'm looking at you, Gav Thorpe ) McNeil I think got it right with Fulgrim (until Reflection Crack'd, when he inexplicably dropped a pile of TNT on his own previous work), and a Thousand Sons, but seemed to miss the giant elephant in the room entirely with Horus and False Gods. So, perhaps he wouldn't be the best choice for writing about the Emperor either.. (that's if its done at all)..

Yup, either ADB for Abnett for the job would be best. I think Abnett would be the better choice of the two I think I prefer ADBs overall writing ability better but Abnett is majestic in his descriptive, if not a little long winded on occasion

Just tossing out another theory. Didn't read all the posts so it might have already been brought up. Maybe the answer is more simple? Which is worse: Space marines and the Imperium fighting CSM, Chaos Gods, and the xenos OR just the Imperium fighting the Chaos gods, Tyranids, emerging Necrons, Dark Eldar, old Craftworld Eldar, the list goes on and on.

I think that nobody pushed "the button" simply because Space Marines would be needed in the future even if a majority of them turned to Chaos.

Makes sense to me. The idea that there would be some day in which the Great Crusade was over and there would be no problems is dumb. As you mention, even if the HH didn't happen and the Imperium was somehow able to exterminate the Orks and take down the Necrons and drive the Dark Eldar into the maw of Slaanesh once and for all ... well, the Tyranids would still show up.

Manchu wrote:Makes sense to me. The idea that there would be some day in which the Great Crusade was over and there would be no problems is dumb. As you mention, even if the HH didn't happen and the Imperium was somehow able to exterminate the Orks and take down the Necrons and drive the Dark Eldar into the maw of Slaanesh once and for all ... well, the Tyranids would still show up.

Also even without the HH the chaos gods would still have another hand to play, plenty of xenos and lost human civilizations worshipped them. I think even without the HH the Gods would still find another way to dig their claws into the material realm... on top of the aforementioned endless hoard that is the tyranid threat.

Space Marines would be required with or without the heresy if you think about it... not saying thats the reasone writers put it in there though. lol Black Library isnt canon... nothing is really canon in this hobby fluff wise

And really... imagine 40k WITHOUT SPEEEZZZ MAWEEEEENNNNSSS!!!!

The Chaos Gods did not need the HH to break into real space. The Eye of Terror is proof enough of that, as is the demise of the Old Ones.

BlaxicanX wrote:

Psienesis wrote:They don't check a given BL writer's work for consistency. There's no internal GW-approved "canon" that a BL novel has to adhere to before being printed, unlike the Star Wars books, which *does* have a set pattern and rules of canon any approved publication bearing the Star Wars name must adhere to.

There is a difference between canon and consistency.

If a BL writer wanted, he could publish a book that had Ultramarines going into battle in hot pink power armor. GW will not care.

I highly doubt it. Source?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/443730.page#4419390

That post right there (and the previous articles it references) is about as clear-cut a description of what GW and BL regard as "canon" as you're going to find. In short? There really isn't any. The various writers tend to follow one anothers' leads and themes, but are by no means beholden to do so. This is how, for example, Dan Abnett can have servitors in the Eisenhorn and Ravenor series who are not only capable of carrying on an intelligent conversation with Ravenor, Nayl, and the rest of his crew, but also have differing opinions, make snide remarks, express fear and surprise, and otherwise generally behave as a human being, while also being mechanically linked to the vehicle it's operating. Ultramarines wear blue power armor because it's something of an in-joke, that particular shade of blue is "ultramarine blue", and is so designated by artists and paint manufacturers long before there was such a thing as a "Space Marine" to wear armor in that color. You could as easily call them the Ultramarines because they are the ultimate Space Marines, the ideal that all chapters aspire to... and have them strut out in flawless white armor with gold trim. The color of their armor is secondary in this interpretation.

Push the button, SOB / IG wont die. after all other Races Dead from fighting each other, we finish off who eva left, lol

Humans win

Manchu wrote:Makes sense to me. The idea that there would be some day in which the Great Crusade was over and there would be no problems is dumb. As you mention, even if the HH didn't happen and the Imperium was somehow able to exterminate the Orks and take down the Necrons and drive the Dark Eldar into the maw of Slaanesh once and for all ... well, the Tyranids would still show up.

You have to think that the military might of the Great Crusade was absolutely overwhelming. They managed to carve out the entirety of Imperial space in 250 years, and it has remained more or less the same volume since (with some areas lost and some gained, but the overall impression given is one of the Imperium just holding on by its fingertips). Orc Empires (including the biggest ever known on Ulanor), entire alien species that got pwnd so thoroughly they don't even get a line in the codex, there was nothing that could match the Crusade's armies, and so you have to think they could have quite easily consolidated internally once the outward push was done. The only thing that could stop the Astartes was another Astartes...

There is also the bit of background that says the Nids are only coming to the milky way because of the beacon-like presence of the Emperor on the Golden throne.. so perhaps they would not be an issue at all?

Manchu wrote:The Chaos Gods did not need the HH to break into real space. The Eye of Terror is proof enough of that, as is the demise of the Old Ones.

Yes, although the Emperor was working on his own series of webway tunnels when the Heresy broke out. The idea of that was to make a travel system that wouldn't be reliant on the warp, and therefore reduce dramatically the incidences of daemonic incursions.

I don't think anyone would assume that all of the Legions would be dismantled, or given new jobs as gardeners or something, but the vast majority of them probably could have been disbanded. They were just to dangerous to keep hanging around and kicking their heels otherwise in a generally more peaceful galaxy.

And regarding such a thing not being 'grimdark'? Well, I think that is the whole idea of 40k - mankind had the galaxy within it's grasp, a shot at greatness and a dominance over its domain, but then it fell at the final hurdle and lost everything. Now all that remains is a slow, painful and spluttering slide into destruction.

Trollslayer wrote: Push the button, SOB / IG wont die. after all other Races Dead from fighting each other, we finish off who eva left, lol

Humans win

Right...

Without the Adeptus Astartes or the Emperor the Imperium wouldn't stand a chance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pacific wrote:

Manchu wrote:Makes sense to me. The idea that there would be some day in which the Great Crusade was over and there would be no problems is dumb. As you mention, even if the HH didn't happen and the Imperium was somehow able to exterminate the Orks and take down the Necrons and drive the Dark Eldar into the maw of Slaanesh once and for all ... well, the Tyranids would still show up.

You have to think that the military might of the Great Crusade was absolutely overwhelming. They managed to carve out the entirety of Imperial space in 250 years, and it has remained more or less the same volume since (with some areas lost and some gained, but the overall impression given is one of the Imperium just holding on by its fingertips). Orc Empires (including the biggest ever known on Ulanor), entire alien species that got pwnd so thoroughly they don't even get a line in the codex, there was nothing that could match the Crusade's armies, and so you have to think they could have quite easily consolidated internally once the outward push was done. The only thing that could stop the Astartes was another Astartes...

There is also the bit of background that says the Nids are only coming to the milky way because of the beacon-like presence of the Emperor on the Golden throne.. so perhaps they would not be an issue at all?

Manchu wrote:The Chaos Gods did not need the HH to break into real space. The Eye of Terror is proof enough of that, as is the demise of the Old Ones.

Yes, although the Emperor was working on his own series of webway tunnels when the Heresy broke out. The idea of that was to make a travel system that wouldn't be reliant on the warp, and therefore reduce dramatically the incidences of daemonic incursions.

I don't think anyone would assume that all of the Legions would be dismantled, or given new jobs as gardeners or something, but the vast majority of them probably could have been disbanded. They were just to dangerous to keep hanging around and kicking their heels otherwise in a generally more peaceful galaxy.

And regarding such a thing not being 'grimdark'? Well, I think that is the whole idea of 40k - mankind had the galaxy within it's grasp, a shot at greatness and a dominance over its domain, but then it fell at the final hurdle and lost everything. Now all that remains is a slow, painful and spluttering slide into destruction.

QFT.

The Great Crusade was the most fantastic military push in the history of mankind in the 40k universe. The human race expanded and conquered at a rate greater than at any point in the timeline, thanks in large part to the work done in previous periods colonizing pockets of the Galaxy. Had the Crusade come to it's natural conclusion there would have been no need for the Astartes, or most of them, because all the Alien threats would have been destroyed and the nids would not be attracted to our Galaxy by the Astronomicon.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Pacific wrote:suppose there is the potential for them to upset a large amount of the readership depending on what course they take. Remember the furore when the Collected Visions books described Fulgrim plonking Ferrus Mannus' head on the table in front of Horus ("it's FFG games, not GW, its not canon!" - who knew there were so many Iron Hands collectors? ), or Gav Thorpe's Immortal line of "he was waiting to see which side won", as spoken by the Lion? The amount of nerd-rage at that one almost caused certain sections of forums to close down, with numerous declarations of fatwah announced. The point being that GW's sci-fi universe, being more than 20 years old now, has been pretty well developed. Enough for its many fans to already have found the thing they like most in it - their own niche within the universe if you like - anything too revelatory, too groundbreaking, could potentially upset a large percentage of the readership.

They maybe should not have touched it at all, something so big and so mysterious should have been left as a rumour, a legend of older, darker times. I'm glad that they have undertaken it, but I am underwhelmed and a bit disheartened by it all. I'll keep reading but will keep moaning where necessary.

Quite frankly, the Gav Thorpe thing is what got me into really liking Dark Angels. In all honesty I wish the HH DA books actually went with Thorpe's explanation, but inevitably there would have been some neckbeards who would have ragequit 40k after that.

Edit: accidentally deleted a quote bracket

Here's an interesting little thing, if anyone wants an insight in to how Black Library works. Don't get me wrong, it's nothing ground breaking so don't get too excited.

I wrote to them asking how they planned their books:



And their response

Yeah, Dan Abnett has posted about this on his blog from time to time.

Indeed, as does AD-B.

I don't see why, at the end of the Great Crusade, the Astartes etc. couldn't just push into other galaxies?

Just Dave wrote:Indeed, as does AD-B.

I don't see why, at the end of the Great Crusade, the Astartes etc. couldn't just push into other galaxies?

They could, but didn't need to. Because this Galaxy isn't fully explored.
There is no foreseeable end to the GC if all of the contenders to claim this Galaxy show up. ( advantage of the reader/hindsight ).
The Primarchs had a few talents not related to warfare, too. Wouldn't make sense if they are just 'generals' for all eternity.

So in reality, no one would waste the ressources to create an Empire just to burn it down and hope for a desired outcome.
In 40k, the game the Emperor plays is laid out in The Outcast Dead, a game he plans to win. This aim for the final victory in a conflict is also part of his course laid out in the 6th ed rulebook.

The Legiones Astartes are part of the plan, to guide humanity to its next step. But to assume we could use the ramblings of 2 criminals in outcast dead to identify the Astartes as tools because it seemed possible this happened before ? No sir, such lowlifes are as reliable as C.S. Goto in my book. Maybe the Emperor was aware of instabilities in the gnetech used to create the thunderwarriors and had to end their suffering? Instead of having them around, slowly dieing in a horrible way that may ruin their reputation from the unification wars? We don't know how far the Genetech evolved and where its level was at the time of the Great Crusade. Its safe to assume there were more gene-enhanced troops around, as the amount of "geno.xx..xx " troops spotted in HH novels would hint at.

DL is on the pile of wasted chances. Did it tell us about the featured Legion? Maybe if you expected AL as the main actors...
Its a followup, where the RG tried to rebuild from a trap they escaped with some help. The same 'support' that stole their gift from the Emperor. The genetech arc is one of the worst ideas IMO, cause handing precious and irreplacable tech to a single Legion , when loyalities are questionable and the safety of it cannot be guaranteed ( and it stolen...) pretty much confirms there wasn't much thought put into the whole affair. An impression of a kill-switch? I'd call it a by-product of pseudo science used in sf stories.
Why should an Emperor who can make a whole assembled Legion kneel against their will , not just make them headshot themselves?

Good point about Monarchia -- maybe that is an example of what the Emperor was talking about.

Also, I think Corax was perhaps the most trustworthy Primarch.

Manchu wrote:Good point about Monarchia -- maybe that is an example of what the Emperor was talking about.

Also, I think Corax was perhaps the most trustworthy Primarch.

True. I have always viewed Corax as most trustworthy, Russ as the most loyal, and Dorn as the most dependable.

OverwatchCNC wrote:

Manchu wrote:Good point about Monarchia -- maybe that is an example of what the Emperor was talking about.

Also, I think Corax was perhaps the most trustworthy Primarch.

True. I have always viewed Corax as most trustworthy, Russ as the most loyal, and Dorn as the most dependable.

With a tie of Guilleman and Lion as the whiniest . The whole statement about Russ being the Emperors attack dog fits very well, yes he isnt the sharpest tool in the shed, but if the emperor told him to do something he would make sure to try his best to do so.



The trophy for prettiest primarch goes to Sanguinus

I think you just made Fulgrim go to bed in tears with that comment!

English Assassin wrote:

kitch102 wrote:What are your thoughts?

That Deliverance Lost is a lousy novel.

I've resisted posting in this thread for quite a bit, as I don't have much constructive to add to it aside from my hatred of Gav Thorpe as an author.

I was working my way through the HH series book by book till Deliverance Lost. I saw Corax on the cover and thought "Sweet, primarch novel". Then I saw the author. I Have actually stopped reading the series now, as my OCD doesn't allow me to skip a novel, yet I can't justify paying money to read something Gav Thorpe has written. I have avoided reading the thread in depth as I do plan to eventually read the novel, I'm just trying to lower my expectations enough to not hurt everything around me when I finish it and realize that Thorpe has once again destroyed fluff with terrible writing.

TLDR: Gav Thorpe being the author of Deliverance Lost has single handedly made me stop reading the HH novels. Having gleamed this thread, my fears of poorly constructed plot devices and a complete disregard for establish fluff seems well founded. While ADB, McNeil and the others rewrite fluff with precision and elegance, Gav Thorpe mows through it like Godzilla on a bad day in Tokyo.

I may be wrong, but wouldn't that kill the Traitor Marines too?

Dash2021 wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

kitch102 wrote:What are your thoughts?

That Deliverance Lost is a lousy novel.

I've resisted posting in this thread for quite a bit, as I don't have much constructive to add to it aside from my hatred of Gav Thorpe as an author.

I was working my way through the HH series book by book till Deliverance Lost. I saw Corax on the cover and thought "Sweet, primarch novel". Then I saw the author. I Have actually stopped reading the series now, as my OCD doesn't allow me to skip a novel, yet I can't justify paying money to read something Gav Thorpe has written. I have avoided reading the thread in depth as I do plan to eventually read the novel, I'm just trying to lower my expectations enough to not hurt everything around me when I finish it and realize that Thorpe has once again destroyed fluff with terrible writing.

TLDR: Gav Thorpe being the author of Deliverance Lost has single handedly made me stop reading the HH novels. Having gleamed this thread, my fears of poorly constructed plot devices and a complete disregard for establish fluff seems well founded. While ADB, McNeil and the others rewrite fluff with precision and elegance, Gav Thorpe mows through it like Godzilla on a bad day in Tokyo.

In all fairness I liked Angels of Darkness, just cast some doubt onto the Dark Angels loyalty....something a heretic would try to do.

Pilau Rice wrote:

kitch102 wrote:There's a bit in the book where

Spoiler:

the emperor says to corax that the secret weapon will allow him to raise a new army of space marines, bringing the raven guard back up to fighting strength. He goes on to say that it is also the key to the destruction of the marines, as though he can kill them all at the push of a button.

My question then is

Spoiler:

why, when horus and his crew of miscreants turned against the emperor, did he not just push the button and start with a fresh slate? He'd have killed the loyal marines too, but saved countless of billions of guard, civilians and, to look at it fiscally, resources. And admin time. Surely that would have saved him a lot of effort over fighting a war on 2 fronts (him vs the warp and later against horus on terra).

What are your thoughts?

I believe the quote is

More than that, the genestore contains the means to destroy what it created. That which I bound within the fibre of every Space Marine can be undone, unravelling their strength and purpose at a stroke - Deliverance Lost p167

As Space Marines are humans with genetic implants rather than clones, could this "kill switch" simply mean destroying all their implants? Those implants give them their strength. With the implants they have a purpose. Without them, they have neither.

If we go on the supposition that this switch would affect both sides' Astartes at once, and based on the rapid expansion of the Empire during the Great Crusade, I believe the Emperor would not have used the switch because it would have been suicidal. The Great Crusade was made possible by the Astartes. Some 200,000 superwarriors, spread across the galaxy, bringing rogue worlds to heel and beating back the aggression of alien races great and small. Now what happens when those races and rebellious worlds find that all 200,000 warriors are suddenly gone? That the Emperor's only real teeth are the waves of normal, Joe Schmoe humans he can hurl into the meat grinder? They retake their territory. Those humans who found terror and inspiration in the Angels of Death now find these icons of Terran power wiped clear from the galaxy, crushing hope.

In short, the Emperor would have to start from scratch, easily costing more lives, more resources, and more time. Even worse, he is set back, as all the powers brought so quickly to heel would act fast knowing the Emperor's potential and trying to strike before he could muster his forces once again. No. Better to defeat them militarily. Half of his Astartes are still loyal. Both sides were lessened in number by Istvaan. And he has the might of the Imperial Guard with him. Half of the Astartes and Titan legions may have rebelled, but he still has numbers, resources, and his own brilliance on his side. Sure a Civil War is a sign for outsiders to sharpen their knives, but if the Imperium comes out on top, then they can return to business as usual.

It also serves to have a new enemy to strive against, if other Xenos were starting to thin out... So why not let the HH continue? Personally I think he had no idea that the HH would end the way it did, or that the Imperium would have gotten where it is now. The Webway was the future. Potentially, it meant a future without war based on human supremacy and realization of ultimate potential: surpassing even the Eldar in scope and achievement.

I have to agree about Revelation Crack'd. I really rather liked the idea that Fulgrim is trapped inside his own body, helpless as a daemon commits these atrocities in his name. There's a chance for redemption there. For rescue. It lets me play "What if..." with the notion of Fulgrim retaking his body fully one day and doing his best to make Amends. That story... changes all of that.

It was also massively tragic.. really I think Fulgrim 'got' that essential heart of the 40k universe. What might have been, potential unfulfilled, but then lost. There was another similar story in one of the short-story books where a psyker from the future was trying to communicate with some battle sisters (?! not completely sure with who), and warn them about the coming heresy. Any other sci-fi universe would have had them all sit down and listen to the warning. Not in 40k though, no, one of the other soldiers turns around and blows off the head of the soldier whose future self is communicating with them, thereby instantly stopping the communication!

But I digress.. yes the whole of Reflection Crack'd read like a cross between bad fan fiction and a children's comic book, it was appalling. Actually spoilt the rest of the stories in the book for me, and knocked the wind out of my sales with regards to continuing to read the HH series. I kind of hope McNeil will get given a break or something, he's written some great stuff and that book almost makes me think it was done by someone else with just his name added to it.

I think its worth considering a few things about Reflection Crack'd:




I'm not saying any of the above are true or what you should believe, but I think they're worth bearing in mind. Ultimately, I don't think Reflection Crack'd will really change things that much.

Just Dave wrote:I think its worth considering a few things about Reflection Crack'd:

Spoiler:

- Some people have interpreted it as Fulgrim still being possessed and Lucius being in on it.
- He becomes a Daemon Primarch anyway. If this requires a level of possession, then it's arguably more tragic as Fulgrims efforts then go to waste.
- A lack of possession means Fulgrim turned to Chaos by choice, which arguably marks an even bigger fall from grace.

I'm not saying any of the above are true or what you should believe, but I think they're worth bearing in mind. Ultimately, I don't think Reflection Crack'd will really change things that much.

Edit: Spoilerz

You know that last email I sent to BL Customer Services? I followed it with something like "nice one, thanks for that, now get them to write something about Captain Orar".

The reply just came through;

"Hello Si,

I passed your email onto our editorial team who came back with this very cryptic response...

'Many character names have been discussed in the secretive meetings of the High Lords. As for who they are and what plans we have for them in future... I can't say.'

Regards,"

VERY excited

Wardragoon wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:

Manchu wrote:Good point about Monarchia -- maybe that is an example of what the Emperor was talking about.

Also, I think Corax was perhaps the most trustworthy Primarch.

True. I have always viewed Corax as most trustworthy, Russ as the most loyal, and Dorn as the most dependable.

The whole statement about Russ being the Emperors attack dog fits very well, yes he isnt the sharpest tool in the shed, but if the emperor told him to do something he would make sure to try his best to do so.



The trophy for prettiest primarch goes to Sanguinus

Nooooo,Lionel Dwayne Johnson is the sharpest tool:-)Thats why his"little brother" saved his arse from being raped by Curze, and then of course he waited the end of war to side with the winner.....BTW RUSS WAS THE SHARPEST TOOL(not mentaly-physicaly),evidence is-two primarchs missing...I hate constant spiting on RUSS on evidence mostly from wiki and from people who have red only "thousand sons" ...

DatrhMarko wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:

Manchu wrote:Good point about Monarchia -- maybe that is an example of what the Emperor was talking about.

Also, I think Corax was perhaps the most trustworthy Primarch.

True. I have always viewed Corax as most trustworthy, Russ as the most loyal, and Dorn as the most dependable.

The whole statement about Russ being the Emperors attack dog fits very well, yes he isnt the sharpest tool in the shed, but if the emperor told him to do something he would make sure to try his best to do so.



The trophy for prettiest primarch goes to Sanguinus

Nooooo,Lionel Dwayne Johnson is the sharpest tool:-)Thats why his"little brother" saved his arse from being raped by Curze, and then of course he waited the end of war to side with the winner.....BTW RUSS WAS THE SHARPEST TOOL(not mentaly-physicaly),evidence is-two primarchs missing...I hate constant spiting on RUSS on evidence mostly from wiki and from people who have red only "thousand sons" ...

Sorry, I was using the sharpest tool as a metaphor for intelligence not ability