Warhammer Fantasy Rumours (incl. release schedules): Dwarf and WE release list rumour 15th November

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**Experiment 626**

Da Boss wrote:
Quite interesting stuff. GW moving towards a more unified rules production is a good thing. War of the Ring is an example of this approach and I think it is a great game.

However the cost of the core units is still ridiculous, and the army size needed for WFB means I haven't bought anything past the odd single model for about 2 years. In that time I've expanded my Trollbloods and Legion, bought some Red Box, bought an entire mantic undead army.

Unfortunately however, the armies themselves in WotR are easily some of the very worst balanced rules of all time!

It took my old manager and I all of about 15 minutes to build some very, very disgusting lists...
My evil list utilising Khamul+The Betrayer+Saruman+Amdur in a full 6 company formation of pike armed Easterlings that would take on entire armies just by themselves... Or my manager's Galadriel + 3 Epic-Shooting Elven heroes which managed to machine gun down 3 mumaks in a single turn...

Yeah, let's hope GW puts a wee bit more effort into it this time around!

**His Master's Voice**

Experiment 626 wrote:
3 Epic-Shooting Elven heroes which managed to machine gun down 3 mumaks in a single turn...

Sounds like a faithful representation of the movie, right?

**RiTides**

Zing!

**Kroothawk**

Haven't had any time to analyse all of Harry's and Hastings' posts on this yet, but here is another one:

Harry wrote:Let me try and do something about that ... by offering some more words of hope.

I got to thinking it is possible some of you have not been alive long enough to have played a game in 3rd edition warhammer.
Let me tell you how this worked in 3rd Edition.
In 3rd Edition we had One book called 'Warhammer Armies'.
It was 162 pages of hardbound lovliness and you didn't need to work out to carry it around.
It had all the armies (11 at the time) 14 Allied contingents and 11 mercenary contingents and a bestiary section for Monsters all in one book.

The way you selcted an army was to agree woth your opponent how big a game you wanted to play. Then agree what catagories you wanted to pick troops from.

You could just a play a standard game and pick from one army list as the only compulsory choices where Rank and file and characters from the main list for you army.

Everyone happy so far?

BUT you could agree with you opponent to take choices from other catagories. (and you would agree a % that could be spent).

The catagories were allied contingents, mercenary contingents and ... Monsterous hosts and Ethereal hostss. (Ghosts/Undead).
All vey exciting so far!

However armies were not allowed to pick their allies willy nilly ... (No High elves and Chaos daemons back then!) Oh no! Here is how it broke down ....

Wood Elves choose from:
Allies :High elves, Halflings and Zoat Contingents
Hosts: Boars, Bears, Warhounds, Eagles etc. and ethereals.

Dark Elves could choose from:
Allies chaos, Skaven, Undead and Fimir contingents.
Mercenaries: Nippon, Hobgoblin and Ogre ontingents.
Hosts: Cold ones, spiders, Giants bats etc. Ethereals OR Chaotic Monsters Cockatrices, Hapries, Hydras etc.

The Empire could choose from:
Allies: Haflings, old worlders and Wood elves
Mercenaries: Dwarves, Norse, 'Old Worlders' and Ogres.
Hosts: Bears, Warhounds etc.

Ocs and Goblins could have:
Allies Chaos Skaven and Fimir allies.
Mercenaries: Giants, Half Orcs, Hobgoblins, Ogres, and other orcs.
Hosts: oars, Wolcves spides

Chaos could have:
Allies: Other Chaos, Skaven, Daark elves, Undead, Orcs and Goblins.
Mercenaries: Ginats, hobgoblins, Ogres, Half Orcs and orcs.
Hosts: Ethereals and Chaotic monsters.

I won't list them all but you get the picture. Characterful yet sensible options and restrictions .... not a completely free choice.
Having said that I remember more than one game where we allowed allied contingents outside the 'allowed' combinations because those were the figures we had and then developed the narrative to expalin it.... and a couple of games where we put all the good guys and all the bad guys we had on the table and ignored all restrictions ... why the hell wouldn't you.

However if you wanted to stick to the rules you could. Even if you and your opponent agreed to use contingents you still had to stay inside army guidlines that set a limit of a maximum fraction of your force that could be allies or monsters. so even if you choose to use other catagories you never really lost the flavour of the main army.

The main lists had bazillions of options, The allies lists had much fewer and the mercenary contingent lists wee quite small.
The contingent lists also tended to be made up of the troop choices you were most likely to see abroad and out and about. So not the rarest options in the main armies list. (Thus fears of multiple multiple steam tanks in every army should not be allowed to fester).

So I can see this all working out in a similar way. Just brought up to date with all that has changed in the last 25 years
Could be one book? Could be two books as there was not much crossover between the good guys and the bad guys in the allies options.
But I can see (and dream of) a third and seperate book of mercenaries which everyone can 'buy' into.
Giants, Ogres, Orcs, Hobgoblins, Dwarves, Norse, Tilea, Estalia, Kislev, Araby, Cathay.
I guess it could include other Dogs of war and regiments of renown that were available at a price.
Even these seem to split into good guys and bad guys pretty easy without much crossover. So no reason it needs to be a different book?

I know it all seems like a very different direction for Warhammer but it really isn't. It's just all been forgotton.
Don't get me wrong I have loved the army books but any encourgaement to pick allies and mercenaries and build exciting narrative driven armies again is most welcome. (by me at least).
Not everything about 3rd edition was good ... Magic was a shocker for example.
I hope they may be taking the chance to look back through the different editions to recapture all that was best about Warhammer.

**Triple_double_U**

The above is right. If done well it would make the game more interesting. (so long as they do the allies/monsters bit properly and not how the butchered the 40k version)

But I don't see why everyone is scared that these supposed new books are going to be so 'enourmous.' Yes there are more units than before, but in the current army books, if you take out the page of fluff for each unit, the army won't take up that much space at all.

**-Loki-**

Triple_double_U wrote:
The above is right. If done well it would make the game more interesting. (so long as they do the allies/monsters bit properly and not how the butchered the 40k version)

But I don't see why everyone is scared that these supposed new books are going to be so 'enourmous.' Yes there are more units than before, but in the current army books, if you take out the page of fluff for each unit, the army won't take up that much space at all.

I think the biggest gripe will be paying GW's obvious high price for all of those armies in one book (even if they do go 'good' and 'evil' books) when all someone wanted was just High Elves and their allies.

I know I don't enjoy paying $83 for a single army book now, and certainly didn't enjoy $124 for the rulebook (hence why I ordered it from the UK). I can't see myself being happy about buying a $120+ armies book when my only interest is in Vampire Counts and potentially any allies they can take.

This method worked back in the mists of time because GW didn't rape your wallet with every release back then.

**Ehsteve**

-Loki- wrote:
Triple_double_U wrote:
The above is right. If done well it would make the game more interesting. (so long as they do the allies/monsters bit properly and not how the butchered the 40k version)

But I don't see why everyone is scared that these supposed new books are going to be so 'enourmous.' Yes there are more units than before, but in the current army books, if you take out the page of fluff for each unit, the army won't take up that much space at all.

I think the biggest gripe will be paying GW's obvious high price for all of those armies in one book (even if they do go 'good' and 'evil' books) when all someone wanted was just High Elves and their allies.

I know I don't enjoy paying $83 for a single army book now, and certainly didn't enjoy $124 for the rulebook (hence why I ordered it from the UK). I can't see myself being happy about buying a $120+ armies book when my only interest is in Vampire Counts and potentially any allies they can take.

This method worked back in the mists of time because GW didn't rape your wallet with every release back then.

An entirely valid point, however GW is very much willing to bet you will buy it, and hopefully make a larger margin off that purchase as you were only going to buy one book anyway. The only way to really make an actual saving in this new system is to support multiple armies which means you need to invest more cash in order to make good on those savings and-

Though honestly if in the current system every book costs X to print and the markup is Y, and they condense it into 2 books of 6 (which under the old system would have generated 6X+6Y) and then costs 4X+Z to print, if markup Z > 4Y then they've made a good bit of profit on top of getting you to buy more stuff you won't use and wouldn't buy under the old system.

**Triple_double_U**

Yeah, I'm not super keen to see what these prices are. It will be interesting to see the 'maths/logic' behind the decision on how much they cost compared to how much GW thinks they are worth.

As someone with many armies, this could end up being cheaper...?

**Sigvatr**

-Loki- wrote:
Triple_double_U wrote:
The above is right. If done well it would make the game more interesting. (so long as they do the allies/monsters bit properly and not how the butchered the 40k version)

But I don't see why everyone is scared that these supposed new books are going to be so 'enourmous.' Yes there are more units than before, but in the current army books, if you take out the page of fluff for each unit, the army won't take up that much space at all.

I think the biggest gripe will be paying GW's obvious high price for all of those armies in one book (even if they do go 'good' and 'evil' books) when all someone wanted was just High Elves and their allies.

I know I don't enjoy paying $83 for a single army book now, and certainly didn't enjoy $124 for the rulebook (hence why I ordered it from the UK). I can't see myself being happy about buying a $120+ armies book when my only interest is in Vampire Counts and potentially any allies they can take.

This method worked back in the mists of time because GW didn't rape your wallet with every release back then.

Precisely. We will most likely buy 1 copy of a book for the club and then let the .pdf magic work its way.

**BlackRaven1987!!**

Why is it that there are no lizardmen rumors. But there are rumors for things like britonia and dwarves and the aren't rumored to come out until next year, and lizardmen rumored to come out this year.

**Avian**

Well, there weren't much in the way of Apocalypse rumours until those two pics showed up the other day either. It was strongly hinted at coming in June, but the rumours concerning the contents were the usual "I hear there is a Thunderhawk on the way".

It's business as usual. Coming in August and new big dino is all we have.

**grimdark83**

So if what harry says comes to be proven as fact then can we expect a huge model release when 9th edition comes out since there seems to be quiet a few models on that list that dont have actual models or will GW just let someone else make models for them instead?

**Kroothawk**

Here the leaked head of the new teradons, posted first by Pandavore over at the Warhammer Forum (and confirmed by Hastings):
http://www.warhammer-forum.com/index.php?showtopic=189880&pid=2379189&st=50&#entry2379189

Time is nearing when Lizardmen get their own thread, it seems.

Also, Greyhnir over at Bugman's Brewery:

I can tell you that our FLGS is having issues getting me Dwarf orders in...apparently all Dwarf regiments/models except for the standard warrior box are currently special order only. I'm having to wait an extra week just to get in a box of quarrellers! I hope this is an indication that the new army book is coming out soon...maybe August or November...
(...)
Well, I finally received my Quarrellers and they were not even in a box. GW is now sending the Dwarfs as special orders in plastic bags....

Could just be reboxing to smaller boxes with the same price though.

**MeanGreenStompa**

Kroothawk wrote:
Could just be reboxing to smaller boxes with the same price though.

This is great news!

The return of a Ravening Hordes/Warhammer Armies book is personally welcomed, the release as a single entity should really promote more balance in the game as all the lists get released under whatever is the current design ethos in the studio instead of over a decade with changes in direction, staff and edition emphasis.

That actually is great news. Of course the price of said book may not be...

**wowsmash**

My problem isn't the rules but the models. All of the core troops from most of the armies look reaaaally old.

If GW doesn't want to bother redoing the core stuff I'm really not interested in playing. I don't want to pay for ugly models.

**Aerethan**

wowsmash wrote:
My problem isn't the rules but the models. All of the core troops from most of the armies look reaaaally old.

If GW doesn't want to bother redoing the core stuff I'm really not interested in playing. I don't want to pay for ugly models.

I agree that most kits left over from 6th edition are pretty bad looking.

Examples:

TK Core
HE Core
DE Core sans Corsairs
VC Zombies
WoC Marauders

All of those are leftovers from 10 years ago, and are much in need of revisions. The Elves mostly suffer from terrible hands, the zombies are a mix bag of crap, the TK core are from the old style of skeletons where everyone had abnormal bone density, and Marauders suffer from steroid abuse.

**Kroothawk**

Don't forget the Skaven Nightrunners

**Aerethan**

What kills me is that GW does zero market research into what kits customers feel need an update.

I'd back a GW Kickstarter if it was for new HE core troops(Silver Helms included).

If the tooling is really the biggest cost, then GW could easily post 3d renders of proposed models, get feedback on them, take preorders etc to justify the expense of the molds.

**Vermillion**

Aerethan wrote:
What kills me is that GW does zero market research into what kits customers feel need an update.

I'd back a GW Kickstarter if it was for new HE core troops(Silver Helms included).

If the tooling is really the biggest cost, then GW could easily post 3d renders of proposed models, get feedback on them, take preorders etc to justify the expense of the molds.

In around 10 years they will admit the internet exists and that this newfangled kickstarter thing is a good idea which gets money upfront and away from discount retailers. But we're safe for ten years, don''t sorry

**Krinsath**

While the Internet rage would be worth it alone, I do wonder how a GW KS would do. They obviously move kits and have a huge following still. There'd be a lot of people upset that GW is the last company in the market who'd need to go the KS route. There'd be the obvious GW-hate, but as polarizing as they really are I doubt the rage would really translate to much; if you're in this market you know about GW and have made your choice about them.

An interesting thought exercise, and it would allow GW to fund the tooling for those kits where people felt it was needed with no risk. Way too much of a customer-friendly policy to ever be done though.

**Theophony**

Vermillion wrote:
Aerethan wrote:
What kills me is that GW does zero market research into what kits customers feel need an update.

I'd back a GW Kickstarter if it was for new HE core troops(Silver Helms included).

If the tooling is really the biggest cost, then GW could easily post 3d renders of proposed models, get feedback on them, take preorders etc to justify the expense of the molds.

In around 10 years they will admit the internet exists and that this newfangled kickstarter thing is a good idea which gets money upfront and away from discount retailers. But we're safe for ten years, don''t sorry

Except they'll realize there's porn on the Internet, and will be busy for a while after that, they won't find out about forums until they have all the slaaneshi concepts covered.

**Krinsath**

Theophony wrote:
Vermillion wrote:
Aerethan wrote:
What kills me is that GW does zero market research into what kits customers feel need an update.

I'd back a GW Kickstarter if it was for new HE core troops(Silver Helms included).

If the tooling is really the biggest cost, then GW could easily post 3d renders of proposed models, get feedback on them, take preorders etc to justify the expense of the molds.

In around 10 years they will admit the internet exists and that this newfangled kickstarter thing is a good idea which gets money upfront and away from discount retailers. But we're safe for ten years, don''t sorry

Except they'll realize there's porn on the Internet, and will be busy for a while after that, they won't find out about forums until they have all the slaaneshi concepts covered.

Maybe after watching all that porn they'll finally have a vague idea of what the female form looks like. Exaggerated and still unrealistic to be sure, but closer than what they've managed by and large to date.....

**Platuan4th**

So Lizardmen next or soon? In other words, if I want anything that's still metal from that range, order it now?

**Aerethan**

Platuan4th wrote:
So Lizardmen next or soon? In other words, if I want anything that's still metal from that range, order it now?

Been a long rumor that LM are this year, and I'd hazard they are before dwarves or DE, so yes, if you think it'll be going to failcast then now's the time, before those prices rise for being cast in a cheaper material.

**MajorStoffer**

Aerethan wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
So Lizardmen next or soon? In other words, if I want anything that's still metal from that range, order it now?

Been a long rumor that LM are this year, and I'd hazard they are before dwarves or DE, so yes, if you think it'll be going to failcast then now's the time, before those prices rise for being cast in a cheaper material.

It's actually quite clever on their part; switch to finecast, raise prices. People moan, complain and loathe it. Some time later, switch over to plastic and lower prices back to what they were as metal, people rejoice, buy a billion.

More on topic, the uglyness of most of the core range of Fantasy is one of the chief reasons I never got seriously into it. The models aren't attractive, many of them are very, very old and a lot of the new stuff isn't very good looking either, and it's extremely expensive. I don't mind the premium I pay for good looking stuff, but I'll be damned if I'll pay a boatload of cash for something I don't like the look of. Whether that be ancient tactical marine kits for 40k, or pretty much the entire Empire line for fantasy, I'm just not interested.

**Kroothawk**

Platuan4th wrote:So Lizardmen next or soon? In other words, if I want anything that's still metal from that range, order it now?

Yep, Lizardmen are next. Any metal left?

Krinsath wrote:Maybe after watching all that porn they'll finally have a vague idea of what the female form looks like. Exaggerated and still unrealistic to be sure, but closer than what they've managed by and large to date.....

Damn, ninja'd

**Platuan4th**

Kroothawk wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:So Lizardmen next or soon? In other words, if I want anything that's still metal from that range, order it now?

Yep, Lizardmen are next. Any metal left?

Tehenhuain and a few of the Skink characters(Chieftains and one of the Priests). Been meaning to grab Tehenhuain for awhile for my old Skink horde.

**Sigvatr**

Kroothawk wrote:
Don't forget the Skaven Nightrunners

Their GIANT ape-ish hands stalk me in my dreams.

Can't wait for the new LM army book and the sweet, sweet tears from LM players crying about them being balanced. Just don't let Ward even get CLOSE to it.

**RiTides**

I can't wait for a toned down Slann... Cannnnnot wait

When is LM supposed to hit? We're due for a fantasy book, right?

July? August? New thread?

**Aerethan**

I don't think there is enough info to warrant its own thread yet, sadly.

Given that June and July are 40k centric, I'd wager August would be Hobbit related(unless that line is dying like I suspect it is). That would put LM in September.