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Fantasy is really good at the moment. I've had two fun battles in the past few weeks, HE vs DoC, and VC vs HE. Both times the HE won. Yes, the game is very random and can be maddening, (esp when you can't wound for crap), but it is fun. The first game, my opponent with the DoC had the randomness kill his unit of pink horrors off first turn, and in the vampire game, my vampires succeeded in only one charge the entire game, and magic both times wasn't as powerful as you think. I've also played with the new WoC and they are a powerful list if used correctly, and every army can be good.

So can we please have no more hate towards GW, it seems they can't do anything right in your eyes. I'll pay them money for stuff as long as it is fun and I know one thing, it's better value than Sky.

Left Hand of the Pheonix wrote:
Yes, the game is very random and can be maddening, (esp when you can't wound for crap), but it is fun. The first game, my opponent with the DoC had the randomness kill his unit of pink horrors off first turn, and in the vampire game, my vampires succeeded in only one charge the entire game, and magic both times wasn't as powerful as you think.

Many people have voted with their wallets and indicated that the above isn't what they want in their games of fantasy. It used to be a very tactical game, with folks often comparing it (although it was a bad analogy) to chess and 40k to checkers (again, I'm Not doing this, just saying it was common).

Now, if anything, it's the opposite! There's very little about fantasy that is tactical, compared to how it used to be. This, combined with high prices and poor core sculpts, and Really high model counts of those same poor sculpts needed for the current edition to be competitive with many armies, and you can see why it's doing poorly.

It's not hate... it's reality, and I am getting back into fantasy. I'm very hopeful GW will address this, because their bottom line is being affected and that should result in action on their part.

 RiTides wrote:

Left Hand of the Pheonix wrote:
Yes, the game is very random and can be maddening, (esp when you can't wound for crap), but it is fun. The first game, my opponent with the DoC had the randomness kill his unit of pink horrors off first turn, and in the vampire game, my vampires succeeded in only one charge the entire game, and magic both times wasn't as powerful as you think.

Many people have voted with their wallets and indicated that the above isn't what they want in their games of fantasy. It used to be a very tactical game, with folks often comparing it (although it was a bad analogy) to chess and 40k to checkers (again, I'm Not doing this, just saying it was common).

Now, if anything, it's the opposite! There's very little about fantasy that is tactical, compared to how it used to be. This, combined with high prices and poor core sculpts, and Really high model counts of those same poor sculpts needed for the current edition to be competitive with many armies, and you can see why it's doing poorly.

It's not hate... it's reality, and I am getting back into fantasy. I'm very hopeful GW will address this, because their bottom line is being affected and that should result in action on their part.

As someone down to their last 20 fantasy models and 10 40k models I can second most of what is being said here. Didn't like 6th and didn't like 8th - 8th I particularly disliked, I have gone from owning several thousand models and all books for WFB and 40k to just having remenants following a massive purge on eBay. I have the 2 rule books and one army book but those will go as well. The only thing I have bought from GW is green stuff coz I am too lazy to find out where to buy 36 inch roll of kneadite. Dont even buy BL books anymore.

GW has last a lot of money from me and I know I am not the only one. I dont encourage others to play and infact I steer them towards other games.

The reason Fantasy is declining is brutally simple - no one can afford it. When you need to run troops in blocks of 40 and 10 of them cost $50, you really start to question whether or not you can afford the game. It's all about cost.

And for what it's worth, I love 8th. I really loathed 7th edition, but 8th is just plain fun. Not fun enough to justify >$500 for an army, but still good fun.

~Tim?

 fullheadofhair wrote:

As someone down to their last 20 fantasy models and 10 40k models I can second most of what is being said here. Didn't like 6th and didn't like 8th - 8th I particularly disliked, I have gone from owning several thousand models and all books for WFB and 40k to just having remenants following a massive purge on eBay. I have the 2 rule books and one army book but those will go as well. The only thing I have bought from GW is green stuff coz I am too lazy to find out where to buy 36 inch roll of kneadite. Dont even buy BL books anymore.

GW has last a lot of money from me and I know I am not the only one. I dont encourage others to play and infact I steer them towards other games.

Yep. Fantasy has died a slow death locally. I used to own 2500ish points of Brets, High Elves, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Tomb Kings, VC, and Empire. As well as random 1000 points of chaos and beasts. Now I have a 5000ish pts left, not one complete army, and i'm still selling off everything. 40k, I've held on to my blood angels. That's all. I try to get excited about new releases models, but I actively dislike the game. For me, it's not fun, specifically because of the randomness. I think it's sill that I can plan out a great charge, and happen to roll a 2 for distance. I understand that some randomness is needed, and I don't mind for hit/wound mechanics. But magic and movement shouldn't have those elements in my opinion. The game just always feels like a crapshoot at that point.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
The reason Fantasy is declining is brutally simple - no one can afford it. When you need to run troops in blocks of 40 and 10 of them cost $50, you really start to question whether or not you can afford the game. It's all about cost.

And for what it's worth, I love 8th. I really loathed 7th edition, but 8th is just plain fun. Not fun enough to justify >$500 for an army, but still good fun.

~Tim?

A while back I did some math theorycrafting and came up with an average range of $600-$850 for a balanced 2500(tourney size) army.

Back when I started in 6th edition you could crank out 2000 points for about $250-$300 unless you played a horde army.

The 2500 point limit is the child of using percentage based comp and the current points costs of certain characters(namely Slann and Dragon Lords). 2500 points is as small as you can reliably go to allow all non named characters in games.
With that, the minimum core is now 625 points, where it used to just be 3 units(allowing some armies to take advantage of that) but were still limited on Special and Rare fare more than we are now(which just so happen to all be high $ kits that you can include 2 of within 625 points, and most are auto includes x2).

The rules in 8th edition, as well as the new units that are being released are designed VERY intentionally to get more money out of players. I myself have to take a Frostheart Phoenix, despite me wanting the points elsewhere in my army, if I want to stay competitive in the current meta. Many people write lists using 2 of them, as well as 2 with characters on them.

Many Empire builds rock 2 of the Hurricanums since their OP buff stacks.

This started with VC and their ghost chariot of crazy buffs and debuffs that are designed to be must haves at a high price point.

I yearn for the days when gimmick units were minimal or nonexistent. I despise this idea that the entire game revolves around a single unit or 2 and the characters.

 Aerethan wrote:
The rules in 8th edition, as well as the new units that are being released are designed VERY intentionally to get more money out of players.

While this is true of many games and systems, the rules in 8th edition took it to a new level, and players either rebelled in a sense, or many who wanted to continue to play just couldn't afford to be competitive. The ramp-up in the number of models needed was drastic. This also meant a lot of folks couldn't get their armies painted as quickly, either, contributing to the fast downturn.

Of course, 6th edition 40k also requires more models to be competitive, but as the more popular game, and at a lower average price point for a "standard" competitive army, it could get away with it.

Fantasy, on the other hand, has suffered... I'd be shocked if this strategy truly has gotten them more money out of players, or if the loss of players due to attrition and lack of newcomers due to high cost of entry has caused them to get less instead.

Well, it may cost, but you don't have to buy everything new. I only spend money when I have to. Also, characters are only points expensive if you make them so. Fantasy at my store in Macclesfield, is in pretty fine fettel, but it might depend on where you are how many people play it. I also still disagree about tactical games, yes it is more random, but then again every edition is random, as, and I will say this only once, YOU USE DICE it's bound to be random. You don't complain in a game of D&D about randomness, then why do you complain about ones with toy soldiers.

Left Hand of the Pheonix wrote:
Well, it may cost, but you don't have to buy everything new. I only spend money when I have to. Also, characters are only points expensive if you make them so. Fantasy at my store in Macclesfield, is in pretty fine fettel, but it might depend on where you are how many people play it. I also still disagree about tactical games, yes it is more random, but then again every edition is random, as, and I will say this only once, YOU USE DICE it's bound to be random. You don't complain in a game of D&D about randomness, then why do you complain about ones with toy soldiers.

Who's talking about randomness anymore?

Cost is the issue, and this edition is designed with increased cost in mind.

By dictating character costs in a % based comp, you dictate the standard game size(which 13 years ago was 2000 points). When you dictate minimum game sizes, you dictate how many models are needed.

First we saw rank bonus move from 4 to 5 wide, a 25% increase in models if you wanted all 3 rank bonuses.
Then we saw price hikes where models went from $1.75ea for core troops to $2.90ea(Orc Boys as a baseline). So now a unit of 16 orcs which used to give you 4 total ranks for $28.00 is a unit of 20 orcs for the same ranks at a cost of $58.00.

So 2x the cost for the same static combat resolution. Regardless of if THAT specific unit is ever used in that setup, the cost per model, and the total model count needed is getting out of hand. Add to that many core troops dropping in price, meaning you need more models to meet that core minimum.

The entry point for NEW players who don't know about bartertown, dakka and the ebay market(which is only sometimes a deal) is too damn high. And 8th edition is written specifically to keep it that way.

I haven't been able to play WHFB because of one simple reason.

As a Tomb Kings player, you have to have Tomb Guard, and a Casket. Without those, you just can't even be partially competitive. A heirotitan is useful, but can be ignored, if you go for something else to make up for it.

Tomb Guards have to come in large blocks, and for their cost, they are prohibitively expensive. The Casket, even moreso.

I never knew this until AFTER I started looking up making Tomb Kings army lists. And by that time, I had already thrown a bunch of money down, to try and buy a few interesting models, and things.

Fantasy is dead in my FLGS, minus a few who play, you guessed it, HE and Lizardmen. We have one DE player, and then the rest are waiting for the next edition.

8th killed Monsterhammer and Herohammer.

Even if you played the same point level as before, you are needing so many more models.

Take my High Elves as an example:

I used to be able to run an awesome Lord on a Dragon for 600 points and $50 points.

Now if I sink that many points in a dragonlord he is pretty easy to kill. So if I want staying power I need to put those 600 points somewhere else. So instead of a $50 model I now need 4 boxes of PG/WL/SM for $200.

That is what people complain about.

 hubcap wrote:
I would welcome a return to many-armies-in-one-book. And anyone worried about blandification shouldn't be. The 3rd edition Warhammer Armies book was one of my favorite wargaming books ever. It just had basic black-and-white drawings and simple descriptions, but it was packed with ideas.

I'm not worried about blandification. My concern is simply price. I already pay $83au for an army book for my one army. I don't want to pay the massive price GW will charge for many armies in one book these days when all I want are the Vampire Counts rules. Many armies in one book worked back in the 80's because GW weren't making you take out a personal loan to get new releases then. Now, we have $83au army books and supplements and $124au rulebooks. Multiple armies in one book? That's going to give army book prices a good shot in the arm.

 -Loki- wrote:

 hubcap wrote:
I would welcome a return to many-armies-in-one-book. And anyone worried about blandification shouldn't be. The 3rd edition Warhammer Armies book was one of my favorite wargaming books ever. It just had basic black-and-white drawings and simple descriptions, but it was packed with ideas.

I'm not worried about blandification. My concern is simply price. I already pay $83au for an army book for my one army. I don't want to pay the massive price GW will charge for many armies in one book these days when all I want are the Vampire Counts rules. Many armies in one book worked back in the 80's because GW weren't making you take out a personal loan to get new releases then. Now, we have $83au army books and supplements and $124au rulebooks. Multiple armies in one book? That's going to give army book prices a good shot in the arm.

Well clearly with the consolidated rules and single production scheme there would be a sizable savings which would then be passed onto the consum-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Damnit! I almost got that out with a straight face.

I don't mind the idea, but GW is willing to charge crazy prices for terrible ideas, so I shudder to think what they'd want for possibly quite-good ones...

 d-usa wrote:
8th killed Monsterhammer and Herohammer.

Even if you played the same point level as before, you are needing so many more models.

Take my High Elves as an example:

I used to be able to run an awesome Lord on a Dragon for 600 points and $50 points.

Now if I sink that many points in a dragonlord he is pretty easy to kill. So if I want staying power I need to put those 600 points somewhere else. So instead of a $50 model I now need 4 boxes of PG/WL/SM for $200.

That is what people complain about.

Back during 7th the most common complaint people had was that heroes were too powerful. Now people want Herohammer back? Funny how things change over time...

~Tim?

Not really funny, just GW going from one extreme to the other with their rulesets.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
8th killed Monsterhammer and Herohammer.

Even if you played the same point level as before, you are needing so many more models.

Take my High Elves as an example:

I used to be able to run an awesome Lord on a Dragon for 600 points and $50 points.

Now if I sink that many points in a dragonlord he is pretty easy to kill. So if I want staying power I need to put those 600 points somewhere else. So instead of a $50 model I now need 4 boxes of PG/WL/SM for $200.

That is what people complain about.

Back during 7th the most common complaint people had was that heroes were too powerful. Now people want Herohammer back? Funny how things change over time...

~Tim?

Well, it's the same as 40K going from Parkinglothammer to Infantryhammer.

Price is why I dropped out of Fantasy. Well, that and terrible sculpts for core units.

Well, that and what they did to Beasts of Chaos.

Well, if the rumors are true, all the stripes of chaos could possibly be fielded together again in 9th edition... that would be amazingly sweet

Fantasy is alive in our area, but it's primarily the same players from 7th. I hated 7th and the magic phase. Incredibly frustrating to lose WHOLE units at whatever cost $ monitarily - just plan not fun. I think the rule set overall has come a long way, but I do agree it's a company trying to sell miniatures which happens to make rules designed to maximize this concept.

I played Savage Orcs - wonderful army but suffered from the same cost issues.

I now play Daemons because 1) I can change the bases to play 40k as well, and 2) I have enough base models to play (and not buy anything new) until the change the scuplts...

 -Loki- wrote:
Well clearly with the consolidated rules and single production scheme there would be a sizable savings which would then be passed onto the consum-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Yeah, I admit that is a long shot. But if WHFB is enough of a clunker to merit a substantial revision after just one edition, maybe GW will try a different model. Because the current one isn't working.

A MAN CAN DREAM.

As for the randomness of 8th, I'm not saying it can't be fun. But I look at it like this: there's blackjack and there's roulette. Both depend heavily on randomness. If you devote time & energy to improving your play at blackjack, you can get better at it and enjoy it on another level. If you devote time & energy to improving your play at roulette, you're an idiot.

I think 8th edition went too far towards the roulette world.

Wacky "WTF!" outcomes can be fun. But when you're asking people to invest a $1000 and dozens of hours to a game...they're going to want to feel like there's some payback for that effort, and not have game after game decided by a handful of "cinematic" dice rolls for which there is no counter. Even when you win one of those games, you don't feel like, "wow, I'm really getting good at this game," just, "man, that was lucky."

The 8th edition ruleset tries to level out differences in skill and experience (get off Purple Sun and you've always got a chance...), but the business model depends on people investing serious time and money. Those two things conflict, which leads to gamers saying, "why am I doing this again?"

And apparently quite a few people feel that way, since 8th edition is struggling.

I agree that it is not THAT far away from being OK. Tone down the monster spells, lose Steadfast to flank charges, and honestly slap some 0-1/0-2 on some units and it would be a better game IMO. But those aren't the rules.

Anyway, as someone who has played WHFB for 20+ years now, I hope GW is really, seriously rethinking how it handles Fantasy. I doubt that they are, but again, a man can dream.

 RiTides wrote:

Many people have voted with their wallets and indicated that the above isn't what they want in their games of fantasy. It used to be a very tactical game, with folks often comparing it (although it was a bad analogy) to chess and 40k to checkers (again, I'm Not doing this, just saying it was common).

How many people were that and where did you get the numbers from?

Fielding cav over inf and having the better eyesight or spatial judgement never struck me as eminently tactical. Nobody is actually forced to belly-slam in the centre over and over again as you claim. That's the choice of those who believe tactics are gone. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy when these folks don't bother.

It's not hate... it's reality

Yours, not mine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hubcap wrote:

But if WHFB is enough of a clunker to merit a substantial revision after just one edition, maybe GW will try a different model. Because the current one isn't working.

Sure it is.

The randomness is usually blown up out of all proportions. Apparently nobody ever knows whether a charge will succeed and has no control, and yet even I usually manage to get them off. It cannot be so hard. I mean we all fondly remember the times when those 5 handgunner shots always rolled the exact statistically expected values and I shed a lot of tears for the tactical genius in using 16 PD vs 2 or so...that was like really tactically and intellectually stimulating.

If game after game after game was decided by whackyness, explain why the same people place highly at tournaments, and why you actually make an army list instead of just rolling for the units and sizes.

The 8th edition ruleset tries to level out differences in skill and experience (get off Purple Sun and you've always got a chance...), but the business model depends on people investing serious time and money. Those two things conflict, which leads to gamers saying, "why am I doing this again?"

This is ridiculous. That was exactly the question people asked in 7th: What are those 15 dudes good for when only the first rank contributes anyways? That's exactly why step-up and casualties from the back and two ranks and hordes and steadfast were actually welcomed.

The fact that you had to bring this thread up that hasn't been posted in in a month, kind of speaks for itself.

Of course, Dakka is more 40k-focused, but it's not a secret that interest in fantasy has flagged. I don't have numbers, as you well know, I'm just stating the obvious.

Whether it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that the games sucks or not... in the end, it is the reality that I see. People I see don't find it as tactical or as fun... a brutal combination.

Note: I'm just responding to your points... I actually am very stoked about the possibility of 9th edition fantasy. I even have preemtpively gotten some counts-as WoC knights to ally with my chaos dwarfs, in case that becomes a possibility as it has with 40k

 RiTides wrote:
I don't have numbers, as you well know, I'm just stating the obvious.

How about this:

Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines – Spring 2013
Title | Publisher
#1 Warhammer 40k | Games Workshop
#2 Warmachine | Privateer Press
#3 Star Wars X-Wing Miniatures | Fantasy Flight Games
#4 Warhammer Fantasy | Games Workshop
# 5 Hordes | Privateer Press

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/26216.html

Compared to 1 year ago...

Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines – Spring 2012
Title | Publisher
#1 Warhammer 40k | Games Workshop
#2 Warmachine | Privateer Press
#3 Warhammer Fantasy | Games Workshop
#4 Hordes | Privateer Press
#5 Malifaux | Wyrd Miniatures

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/23501.html

and 2 years ago...

Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines – Q2 2011
Title | Publisher
#1 Warhammer 40k | Games Workshop
#2 Warmachine | Privateer Press
#3 Warhammer Fantasy | Games Workshop
#4 Hordes | Privateer Press
#5 Malifaux | Wyrd Miniatures

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/20744.html

3 years ago..

Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines – Q2 2010
Title | Publisher
#1 Warhammer 40k | Games Workshop
#2 Warmachine | Privateer Press
#3 Warhammer Fantasy | Games Workshop
#4 Hordes | Privateer Press
#5 Malifaux | Wyrd Miniatures

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/18046.html

and 4 years ago..

Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines – Q2 2009
Title | Publisher
#1 Warhammer 40k | Games Workshop
#2 Warmachine | Privateer Press
#3 Hordes | Privateer Press
#3 Warhammer Fantasy | Games Workshop
#5 Dark Heaven | Reaper Miniatures

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/15716.html

and thats as far back as icv2 goes.

Nice info to have - thanks for sharing it!

Wow, that's actually better than I thought. 3rd to 4th isn't a big jump. Especially with the growth of those other games.

 RiTides wrote:
The fact that you had to bring this thread up that hasn't been posted in in a month, kind of speaks for itself.

Does it? I suppose everyone's too busy painting and playing. :-)

It's far from obvious to me that WFB is failing or flailing. If it is obvious, there must be something more tangible than just a line like "it's no secret, I have no data". We all know how these things work, people pick up a line on the net and repeat it because they want to be part of the in-crowd or something.

It's easy to say there are no tactics because everyone picks a deathstar and runs straight at each other but I guarantee you that the first one to use even a semblance of tactics will come out ahead 9 times out of 10.

 Cyporiean wrote:
How about this:

Well, what about that? That's like Atletico and Real switching places. Since the whole market is growing and "nobody is complaining too loudly" it's much more likely that WFB is growing, just not as fast in one single season.

If we remember that Warmachine and Hordes could just as well be one game, there probably wasn't any change in the rankings at all.

Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines – Spring 2013
Title | Publisher
#1 Warhammer 40k | Games Workshop
#2 Warmachine | Privateer Press
#3 Star Wars X-Wing Miniatures | Fantasy Flight Games
#4 Warhammer Fantasy | Games Workshop
# 5 Hordes | Privateer Press

What is the market share between #1 and #2? I think that would be most telling. Doesn't 40K sell more than all other GW products combined (WHFB, LotR, Hobby stuff, etc)? So 40k's lead could be substantial.

X-Wing has been a freaking monster of a launch for FFG.

Good for them!

Agreed! It'd be nice if those lists had numbers, though, because for Fantasy to fall below Malifaux or Dark Haven... it'd Really have to fall (and that's just the difference between #4 and #5 some years).

The day Warhammer Fantasy becomes less than 40k in releases...that is sad...

I got into games workshop because of Warhammer fantasy and I love this game so damn much. Very sad to see it go like this...