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 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Am I the only person deeply saddened by not a single mention of an transport able to effectively transport assault troops? They'd have to basically break the game mechanics to make an Eldar assault squad viable in 6th Edition(well, except for Harlies).

Same here. Another option could be to buff existing CC units in a way that they become viable without a transport, like the harlies are now. I'm thinking of a buff for Shining Spears.

I have a two-part solution to help transport Harlies and Banshees...

Add Venoms to the Eldar book.

Make it so a squadron of two Venoms can transport 10 Eldar...

 Nivoglibina wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Am I the only person deeply saddened by not a single mention of an transport able to effectively transport assault troops? They'd have to basically break the game mechanics to make an Eldar assault squad viable in 6th Edition(well, except for Harlies).

Same here. Another option could be to buff existing CC units in a way that they become viable without a transport, like the harlies are now. I'm thinking of a buff for Shining Spears.

Even easier they can just change Banshee's Acrobatics to allow them to treat all vehicles as assault vehicles. However that doesn't solve the fact that they hit like a wet noodle now . It is more likely that Banshees will stay bleh and a new CC option will be introduced.

Harlees have always been fine on foot. It's unlikely we will get that buffed.

If anything, I want them to buff scorpions, mildly. I don't know how, but as it is, offensively, they're basically weaker, slower assault marines. I really like the look of them on the table, but they are a little underwhelming. I would love to run an army with scorpions & spiders as the main focus.

Hmmm... a rule that the Banshees open the doors and start clambering out as the vehicle is still in motion would certainly be interesting...

Eldar are supposed to be agile right? They should have the ability to assault out of a vehicle.

That would make Banshees, Scorpions, Storm Guardians and Phoenix Lords relevant and worth buying, or like me if you already have them, take them off the shelf and blow off the dust.

If that's all the new codex changed I'd still be ...ok... with it.

Seeing the rumor for guardians going down in price makes me happy, I just hope that somehow they get some better range on their weapons. Having hoards of them for a cheaper price, backing up some of the aspects and a few wraithlords would be nice.

Scorpiodragon wrote:
Seeing the rumor for guardians going down in price makes me happy, I just hope that somehow they get some better range on their weapons. Having hoards of them for a cheaper price, backing up some of the aspects and a few wraithlords would be nice.

That's the opposite of nice! The codex should reflect the fluff, which would involve the smallest role possible for Guardians in order to preserve civilian Eldar lives!

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

Scorpiodragon wrote:
Seeing the rumor for guardians going down in price makes me happy, I just hope that somehow they get some better range on their weapons. Having hoards of them for a cheaper price, backing up some of the aspects and a few wraithlords would be nice.

That's the opposite of nice! The codex should reflect the fluff, which would involve the smallest role possible for Guardians in order to preserve civilian Eldar lives!

This. Lots of this. They should be limited almost to manning Weapons Platforms exclusively, but given more platforms per squad. NOT massed troops to bubblewrap other "more valuable" units. Hopefully the mention of Stormwind (limited Aspect Warrior squads being able to be taken as troops) is accurate to correct this.

I disagree with this, Guardians are used in the front lines because there aren't enough Eldar military around to do all the fighting, they have to use conscripts/militia to share the load. Whilst Guardians aren't supposed to fight they have too.

On the table that means low point troops, it's up to you and your roleplaying to use them carefully or as cannon fodder. There will always be some disconnect between the game and the fluff, otherwise Space Marines would be T6 and IG show up dead.

Obviously Biel Tan and Ulthwe are special cases at either end of the spectrum and I'd like to see the new book should make them both viable but I think Guardians with decent rifles would be a great support unit.

 RandyMcStab wrote:
I disagree with this, Guardians are used in the front lines because there aren't enough Eldar military around to do all the fighting, they have to use conscripts/militia to share the load. Whilst Guardians aren't supposed to fight they have too.

Sure, as a worst case scenario they will throw guardians out there. Not every battle in 40k is a desperate attempt of defense. If it's a planned attack they will use aspect warriors and guardians in the form of support weapons and vehicle pilots. They don't just throw 60 civilians out there to protect their Fire Dragons.

 BlueDagger wrote:

 RandyMcStab wrote:
I disagree with this, Guardians are used in the front lines because there aren't enough Eldar military around to do all the fighting, they have to use conscripts/militia to share the load. Whilst Guardians aren't supposed to fight they have too.

Sure, as a worst case scenario they will throw guardians out there. Not every battle in 40k is a desperate attempt of defense. If it's a planned attack they will use aspect warriors and guardians in the form of support weapons and vehicle pilots. They don't just throw 60 civilians out there to protect their Fire Dragons.

If the Farseer or Autacrh deems it so, then yes they can and will. The nature of the Eldar's motives typically revolve around their Seers and the ability to change the threads of certain timelines. Certain battles call for different tools for the job and this can be one of many in which they may use depending on what they are trying to achieve.

Every Craftworld surely uses them differently depending on the nature of their objectives.

Saim-Hann uses bikers, who are by the way, Guardian troops; though their military structure has them divided into various clans that have their own autonomy and are semi-independent, their vanguard units are almost exclusively guardian bike-troops.
Shining Spears are their elite units and are used in a support or vanguard role.

Biel-Tan is the exact opposite, where aspects are the majority of forces. This is not due to a population issue but rather a doctrine where most of their inhabitants pursue the path of the warrior aspect. Guardians are used as support units for most of this craftworld's operations.

However, with all this being said, basically, Guardian troops' roles will vary from one extreme to the other depending on what governs the craftworld in question.

As stated above, removing Guardians from the fighting forces of the Eldar using a "thematic" perspective would also remove any Jetbikes other than Shining Spears, as normal jetbikes and Vypers are piloted by Guardians.

Wow. A lot of wishlisting in a rumors thread. Interesting.

In reality, all the Eldar book needs are a couple points reductions here and there, specifically to our transports, and then the book is really ok.

I don't think anyone that has really analyzed the 6ed codexes can really expect that Eldar will fundamentally shift with regards to either current structure or rules. We'll likely get some points balancing, some new toys and thats about it.

Oh and Mastery Level 4 Eldrad. Because if they don't I'll just quit 40k completely.

Defenestratus wrote:
Wow. A lot of wishlisting in a rumors thread. Interesting.

In reality, all the Eldar book needs are a couple points reductions here and there, specifically to our transports, and then the book is really ok.

I don't think anyone that has really analyzed the 6ed codexes can really expect that Eldar will fundamentally shift with regards to either current structure or rules. We'll likely get some points balancing, some new toys and thats about it.

Oh and Mastery Level 4 Eldrad. Because if they don't I'll just quit 40k completely.

I think that after the new Daemons book turned them into a horde army, the possibility for huge changes is definitely there. I don't think it's incredibly likely, but definitely possible. I'm really curious how they are going to make the Eldar unique, though. Every other recent army seems to be taking what the Eldar do best and doing it better.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

I think that after the new Daemons book turned them into a horde army, the possibility for huge changes is definitely there. I don't think it's incredibly likely, but definitely possible. I'm really curious how they are going to make the Eldar unique, though. Every other recent army seems to be taking what the Eldar do best and doing it better.

I sincerely hope that they leave Eldar as an elite, specialist army. I will sell them in a heart beat if they become a horde army, just like I did with my Daemons. There are enough horde armies as is, I think.

Regarding wishlisting: yeah, that's what most Eldar threads degenerate to. Think it's a combination of having a fairly established fluff that the rules do not reflect well, rather large player base, and a very old codex.

ThirdUltra wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:

 RandyMcStab wrote:
I disagree with this, Guardians are used in the front lines because there aren't enough Eldar military around to do all the fighting, they have to use conscripts/militia to share the load. Whilst Guardians aren't supposed to fight they have too.

Sure, as a worst case scenario they will throw guardians out there. Not every battle in 40k is a desperate attempt of defense. If it's a planned attack they will use aspect warriors and guardians in the form of support weapons and vehicle pilots. They don't just throw 60 civilians out there to protect their Fire Dragons.

If the Farseer or Autacrh deems it so, then yes they can and will. The nature of the Eldar's motives typically revolve around their Seers and the ability to change the threads of certain timelines. Certain battles call for different tools for the job and this can be one of many in which they may use depending on what they are trying to achieve.

Every Craftworld surely uses them differently depending on the nature of their objectives.

Saim-Hann uses bikers, who are by the way, Guardian troops; though their military structure has them divided into various clans that have their own autonomy and are semi-independent, their vanguard units are almost exclusively guardian bike-troops.
Shining Spears are their elite units and are used in a support or vanguard role.

Biel-Tan is the exact opposite, where aspects are the majority of forces. This is not due to a population issue but rather a doctrine where most of their inhabitants pursue the path of the warrior aspect. Guardians are used as support units for most of this craftworld's operations.

However, with all this being said, basically, Guardian troops' roles will vary from one extreme to the other depending on what governs the craftworld in question.

Recently established Eldar canon by Gav Thorpe has Alaitoc, the ranger-oriented craftworld, use 0 rangers during actual mission and 0 guardians at any point in the mission when conducting both a clean-up mission against orks as well as when capturing a chaos relic from humans. It's only during a desperate defence of the craftworld itself that there's Guardians present.

Saim-Hann don't use Guardians in their standard engagements, they use clansmen. Besides, Saim-Hann are barely craftworlders, just don't tell them I said so.

Biel-Tan goes to extremes. Path of the Warrior is a path the Biel-Tan return to time and again and being the largest craftworld they have a truly impressive amount of shrines. Ulthwé are the ones completely different, being constantly in battle they, and one or two of the smaller craftworlds, are the only ones constantly in a desperate situation where the shrines just can't supply enough soldiers. Guardians as troops only exist because of Ulthwé fluff, I believe (just like Wraiths as troops exist due to Iyanden.)

AegisGrimm wrote:As stated above, removing Guardians from the fighting forces of the Eldar using a "thematic" perspective would also remove any Jetbikes other than Shining Spears, as normal jetbikes and Vypers are piloted by Guardians.

Vypers are more special than being simply guardians. Also, you'd not need to remove them from the force for fluff, only make them less common with an Ulthwé character to move them to Troops.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Recently established Eldar canon by Gav Thorpe has Alaitoc, the ranger-oriented craftworld, use 0 rangers during actual mission and 0 guardians at any point in the mission when conducting both a clean-up mission against orks as well as when capturing a chaos relic from humans. It's only during a desperate defence of the craftworld itself that there's Guardians present.

The mission against the Orks did have rangers present. The character from the novel Path of the Outcast is there with other rangers.

Saim-Hann don't use Guardians in their standard engagements, they use clansmen. Besides, Saim-Hann are barely craftworlders, just don't tell them I said so.

Biel-Tan goes to extremes. Path of the Warrior is a path the Biel-Tan return to time and again and being the largest craftworld they have a truly impressive amount of shrines. Ulthwé are the ones completely different, being constantly in battle they, and one or two of the smaller craftworlds, are the only ones constantly in a desperate situation where the shrines just can't supply enough soldiers. Guardians as troops only exist because of Ulthwé fluff, I believe (just like Wraiths as troops exist due to Iyanden.)

Guardians as troops existed from long ago even before Ulthwe's Black Guardians. They were the mainstay of the old 2nd edition Epic armies, where Aspect Warriors were the specialist infantry squads. At company level combat and above, the Guardians and Guardian manned tanks and jetbikes were the mainstay of Eldar forces. However, a 40K game scale is small enough scale that an all Aspect Warrior force is feasible, portraying a very pinpoint surgical strike by special forces.

The problem is that from 3rd edition onwards, Guardians were nerfed to the point of not having much else to do other than be ablative meat shields for other units or a weapon platform. They need to be restored to having a role of their own, and that needs to have the crippling short range of the shuriken catapult addressed. Normal Guardians are not equipped to be assaulting, so giving them an assault weapon is rather pointless.

The issue with the Eldar Codex is more than just minor bells and whistles tinkering. One problem is the specialist Aspect Warriors often needing babysitting or the benefit of psychic powers to be able to perform their job. That is not synergy. Synergy is getting more than the sum of their parts. In other words, 2+2 = 5. If a unit cannot perform its supposed specialist role reliably unless backed up, that is a disadvantage that should be lowering cost.

The other problem is the whole issue of GW randomly spouting off about how advanced and sophisticated Eldar technology is, only to then give something that works only if the stars and moon align, and then overcosting it as if it would always be useful. Other armies then end up over time, over other Codex releases, either taking similar rules or have rules negating the Eldar rules, so that in effect Eldar technology ends up performing worse. Examples: No assault vehicles. Reason given from several editions ago: they have sealed compartments and internal viewscreens (i.e. the illusion of "advanced tech" ends up yielding a worse result). Another example: Bright Lances. It performs better only in a specific case, and worse in others despite all the hype about it being such an advanced laser weapon. Then Black Templars ended up getting something that negated the Lance rule, meaning the Bright Lance performed worse than a lascannon and at best only equalled.

In the past 3rd edition Gav Thorpe Codex, fusion guns were made worse than melta guns. Thankfully that has been changed back, but it was one more bit of the pattern of making Eldar tech worse while spouting off words like "elegant", "advanced", "sophisticated". Sort of the same goes with the eclipsing of the Eldar in the realm of psychic powers, or the inability of Aspects to do things unless the Exarch is holding their hand (like Scorpions infiltrating). It is almost as if the developers had some kind of aversion to giving them anything actually better than humans, which goes completely against the Eldar background and concept of being an advanced race that makes up with lack of numbers with superior tech and psychics..

 BlueDagger wrote:

 RandyMcStab wrote:
I disagree with this, Guardians are used in the front lines because there aren't enough Eldar military around to do all the fighting, they have to use conscripts/militia to share the load. Whilst Guardians aren't supposed to fight they have too.

Sure, as a worst case scenario they will throw guardians out there. Not every battle in 40k is a desperate attempt of defense. If it's a planned attack they will use aspect warriors and guardians in the form of support weapons and vehicle pilots. They don't just throw 60 civilians out there to protect their Fire Dragons.

Somehow the idea of a civilian manning battle equipment costing a gazzilion eldollars doesn't seem right to me....

Think of them as being like the National Guard.

Civilians with military hardware (though not generally top-of-the-line new shinies) and some training.

A lot of countries have an equivalent i think, where civilians do a brief tour of military service or are reservists.

 Ascalam wrote:
Think of them as being like the National Guard.

Civilians with military hardware (though not generally top-of-the-line new shinies) and some training.

A lot of countries have an equivalent i think, where civilians do a brief tour of military service or are reservists.

Well Greeks are a dying race and we do a year of service in the army and I happened to be driving a tank... Now all I need to do is make my ears longer and find a way to live 1000+ years ....

Couldn't Falcons, Vypers, etc be driven by people on the Path of the Pilot?

I mean, can't we have an aspect that is about driving/flying combat vehicles?

Using Guardians in desperate times I understand. But the rest of the time aren't they going to be more of a hinderance to the Aspect Warriors? Not obeying orders as quickly, probably a little jumpy, etc

I would have thought that a technologically sophisticated race would give their Territorial Army/National Guard long range guns and good body army to keep them safely out the way of the enemy. They would look more like Tau Fire Warriors, I think.

Iracundus wrote:
In the past 3rd edition Gav Thorpe Codex, fusion guns were made worse than melta guns. Thankfully that has been changed back, but it was one more bit of the pattern of making Eldar tech worse while spouting off words like "elegant", "advanced", "sophisticated". Sort of the same goes with the eclipsing of the Eldar in the realm of psychic powers, or the inability of Aspects to do things unless the Exarch is holding their hand (like Scorpions infiltrating). It is almost as if the developers had some kind of aversion to giving them anything actually better than humans, which goes completely against the Eldar background and concept of being an advanced race that makes up with lack of numbers with superior tech and psychics..

I somewhat disagree about the Exarchs, but more because I don't think the Exarch should be an optional upgrade. From the fluff, at least as Gav presented it in Path of the Warrior, it sounds like the Exarch always accompanies his shrine into battle. They should come standard with the squad like a SM Veteran Sergeant. I do agree that the Exarch powers you buy should continue to affect the squad if the Exarch dies, though.

 Souleater wrote:
Couldn't Falcons, Vypers, etc be driven by people on the Path of the Pilot?

I mean, can't we have an aspect that is about driving/flying combat vehicles?

Star Eagles, mentioned in fluff at one point or another and brought up as a possibility in one of the rumor threads over the last few years.

Taken from the 40k release thread: Hastings confirmed a few things, we have already heard:

75hastings69 wrote:Eldar, new flier, characters and a new uber wraith guard thingy.
(...)

Hastings, thanks for your rumours, any chance we will see updated jetbikes for the Eldar release and/or plastic Wraithguard?

Yes.

So are Eldar Flyer, Jetbikes, Wraithguard and Uber Wraithguard Thingy? Or are the Wraithguard and the Uber Wraithguard Thingy the same thing?

Not the same thing, there's a huge wraith guard construct type thing (similar to tau) IIRC it has two builds (shooty & cc), also IIRC the actual wraith guard have some kind of CC build option.

Gotta love it. Every army must have something on a 120mm base now. So for eldar it has to be a giant wraith construct. Wraithlords are T8 now. What's this thing going to be? T10? More likely wraithlords will get nerfed to T6 so the new thingy can have T8 all to itself. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Nah. Perplexingly it'll be a vehicle (with 3 HP), and go against the Riptide/Dreadknight trend. And WL's will go down to T7 because they were really powerful in 3rd Ed and the dev team probably still think that's a thing.

Oooooh. Didn't think about the vehicle angle. I can see it now. Failing wraithsight will cause it to glance itself. Joy.

 Arschbombe wrote:
Gotta love it. Every army must have something on a 120mm base now. So for eldar it has to be a giant wraith construct. Wraithlords are T8 now. What's this thing going to be? T10? More likely wraithlords will get nerfed to T6 so the new thingy can have T8 all to itself. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

I wouldn't expect the Wraithlord to keep it's T8 anyway, as other models that had T8 have gotten it reduced. T7, I could see.

 Sasori wrote:

I wouldn't expect the Wraithlord to keep it's T8 anyway, as other models that had T8 have gotten it reduced. T7, I could see.

Ok. Let's see if I am doing this right.

If Wraithlords go to T7 I will burn all of my Eldar models in big heap!!! I will post a video of the conflagration on you tube and mail the charred remains to Mr. Kirby in protest for ruining my life!!!! Then I will find some small mammals to torture until the rage has passed.

How's that? Is that good? Too ragey? Not ragey enough?