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Here's the sheet for you Nocturnus.

Nocturnus wrote:

JB_Man wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:
You might not be aware of this, but GW NEEDS to sell kits. They don't really care much about balance. It's all about selling the big ticket models. Look at flyers. In general, they are the most expensive kits in an army and people are "encouraged" to run 3 of them. Not including Allies. Bottom line, GW sells models first and worries about rules and balance second. Maybe third or fourth...

Of course I'm aware of it. It's obvious that their strategy is to obsolete your thousand dollar investment every year or two. That doesn't mean I have to like it. I love the game, but this is frustrating.

I completely agree! I have been playing since Rogue Trader and it really sucks to see the way the game/company has gone. So, let's wait and see what next Saturday brings (unless some lucky bloke gets a copy/look prior to that). One change that would benefit Wave Serpents would be to make them assault vehicles. At least that would make Banshees and Scorpions viable again. But as was pointed out before, I don't think they'll change it.

If that was the only change they made to Wave Serpents, I'd run them again in a heartbeat.

 Mkvenner wrote:
Here's the sheet for you Nocturnus.

Thank you sir!

They certainly messed up on T and I don't even see a U on that sheet. Do people who make White Dwarf even partake in the hobby?

Biel-Tan and Lugganath are mislabeled.

JB_Man wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

JB_Man wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:
You might not be aware of this, but GW NEEDS to sell kits. They don't really care much about balance. It's all about selling the big ticket models. Look at flyers. In general, they are the most expensive kits in an army and people are "encouraged" to run 3 of them. Not including Allies. Bottom line, GW sells models first and worries about rules and balance second. Maybe third or fourth...

Of course I'm aware of it. It's obvious that their strategy is to obsolete your thousand dollar investment every year or two. That doesn't mean I have to like it. I love the game, but this is frustrating.

I completely agree! I have been playing since Rogue Trader and it really sucks to see the way the game/company has gone. So, let's wait and see what next Saturday brings (unless some lucky bloke gets a copy/look prior to that). One change that would benefit Wave Serpents would be to make them assault vehicles. At least that would make Banshees and Scorpions viable again. But as was pointed out before, I don't think they'll change it.

If that was the only change they made to Wave Serpents, I'd run them again in a heartbeat.

It's really too bad that something that simple will be overlooked by GW. They would sell more Banshees/Scorpions and people would be happier with the Wave Serpent. On another note, on the Seer Council entry, does anyone know if there is a difference between Warlocks and Farseers? The reason I ask is that I noticed 2W on the statline. Maybe Warlocks have 2 wounds now? Or Farseers have dropped to 2W. I hope not, as that would suck.

That's a veeeery comprehensive transfer sheet. I really need to figure out how to actually use those.

For me, the problem with WS price is not in the tank itself (although weapons must have a price drop), but what it carries. I doubt Devilfishes ever transported 150-500 pts. squads (let's be fair, Tau mostly used them because they were mandatory for having enough markerlights in old codex). If you are going with Aspect rush (up to 180 points squad) or make it some sort of IC transport (Yriel, Phoenix Lord, Eldrad), you really want a transport which is either cheap (because you need a lot of dragons and DA's) or Land Raider reliable (it's a fabulous day when transport with seer council crashes and they fail the pinning test).

Nocturnus wrote:
I really hate this WAAC attitude players have been developing over the years. They want an auto-win unit that requires no thinking or tactics to win. Sorry, there's nothing wrong with the Wave Serpent. Like everything else in the game, it gets expensive the more goodies you put on it. So, run it bare-bones. Look at Dark Eldar. Talk about paying premiums. They are regarded by most as a bottom tier army (like their Craftworld kin) yet in the right hands they are devastating. Yes both Eldar armies are fragile and you pay for your stuff. Used properly, they are a very tough list.
But, whatever. People want to argue and whine about little toy soldiers...

BTW: The Necron flyer transport is under costed. Not a very good argument to the Wave Serpent. Comparing a flyer to a ground vehicle? Come on now...

So.. I want cheaper transport and I explicitly mentioned if it needs to be nerfed - let them nerf it. And I am called WAAC? Why are you jumping into that territory and "auto-win unit"? Is there really no middle ground? Or are you that restricted and cannot grasp that some units could get better without being over the top?
And thanks for giving us the words of wisdom: "l2p". And sure, seasoned tourney veterans (not me) are all wrong. You, yes, you are right. They are too stupid to grasp the simple fact they suck and there is absolutely nothing wrong with Wave Serpent.

Plus I was calmly showing why WS is not "appropriately priced". But I guess any criticism is waved as whining. Because pigeonholing people is so much better!

And excuse me if I want to discuss toy soldiers on forum created to discuss toy soldiers. Can we go back to discussing car racing and flowers? What else should I not talk about?

BTW: And I know Necron flayer is not a good comparison, just like the overpriced razorback from the person I quoted. Do you see what I did there? You would know that if you read my post and not jump into stupid conclusions.

I want it cheaper and have no problem with being it weaker (already mentioned in two posts) and that is WAAC in your opinion? Really?

 Macok wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:
I really hate this WAAC attitude players have been developing over the years. They want an auto-win unit that requires no thinking or tactics to win. Sorry, there's nothing wrong with the Wave Serpent. Like everything else in the game, it gets expensive the more goodies you put on it. So, run it bare-bones. Look at Dark Eldar. Talk about paying premiums. They are regarded by most as a bottom tier army (like their Craftworld kin) yet in the right hands they are devastating. Yes both Eldar armies are fragile and you pay for your stuff. Used properly, they are a very tough list.
But, whatever. People want to argue and whine about little toy soldiers...

BTW: The Necron flyer transport is under costed. Not a very good argument to the Wave Serpent. Comparing a flyer to a ground vehicle? Come on now...

So.. I want cheaper transport and I explicitly mentioned if it needs to be nerfed - let them nerf it. And I am called WAAC? Why are you jumping into that territory and "auto-win unit"? Is there really no middle ground? Or are you that restricted and cannot grasp that some units could get better without being over the top?
And thanks for giving us the words of wisdom: "l2p". And sure, seasoned tourney veterans (not me) are all wrong. You, yes, you are right. They are too stupid to grasp the simple fact they suck and there is absolutely nothing wrong with Wave Serpent.

Plus I was calmly showing why WS is not "appropriately priced". But I guess any criticism is waved as whining. Because pigeonholing people is so much better!

And excuse me if I want to discuss toy soldiers on forum created to discuss toy soldiers. Can we go back to discussing car racing and flowers? What else should I not talk about?

BTW: And I know Necron flayer is not a good comparison, just like the overpriced razorback from the person I quoted. Do you see what I did there? You would know that if you read my post and not jump into stupid conclusions.

I want it cheaper and have no problem with being it weaker (already mentioned in two posts) and that is WAAC in your opinion? Really?

I never said L2P. Also, I wasn't attacking you. I am sorry that you took it that way. I am not trying to start a fight. I was simply making ovservations about the current state of the game. Also, I had to retype what I had originally written but my stupid smart phone (?) decided to efase it all and some of what I wrote was lost in translation.

 Mkvenner wrote:
Here's the sheet for you Nocturnus.

Anyone notice how there are 2 Ts in that layout and no Us

 Macok wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:
I really hate this WAAC attitude players have been developing over the years. They want an auto-win unit that requires no thinking or tactics to win. Sorry, there's nothing wrong with the Wave Serpent. Like everything else in the game, it gets expensive the more goodies you put on it. So, run it bare-bones. Look at Dark Eldar. Talk about paying premiums. They are regarded by most as a bottom tier army (like their Craftworld kin) yet in the right hands they are devastating. Yes both Eldar armies are fragile and you pay for your stuff. Used properly, they are a very tough list.
But, whatever. People want to argue and whine about little toy soldiers...

BTW: The Necron flyer transport is under costed. Not a very good argument to the Wave Serpent. Comparing a flyer to a ground vehicle? Come on now...

So.. I want cheaper transport and I explicitly mentioned if it needs to be nerfed - let them nerf it. And I am called WAAC? Why are you jumping into that territory and "auto-win unit"? Is there really no middle ground? Or are you that restricted and cannot grasp that some units could get better without being over the top?
And thanks for giving us the words of wisdom: "l2p". And sure, seasoned tourney veterans (not me) are all wrong. You, yes, you are right. They are too stupid to grasp the simple fact they suck and there is absolutely nothing wrong with Wave Serpent.

Plus I was calmly showing why WS is not "appropriately priced". But I guess any criticism is waved as whining. Because pigeonholing people is so much better!

And excuse me if I want to discuss toy soldiers on forum created to discuss toy soldiers. Can we go back to discussing car racing and flowers? What else should I not talk about?

BTW: And I know Necron flayer is not a good comparison, just like the overpriced razorback from the person I quoted. Do you see what I did there? You would know that if you read my post and not jump into stupid conclusions.

I want it cheaper and have no problem with being it weaker (already mentioned in two posts) and that is WAAC in your opinion? Really?

On this subject: don't worry, those calling WAAC are simply unable to move on past their current codex and are deathly afraid of change. If anything were to disrupt their current understanding of the codex and they would be forced to go through the same process of adapting, understanding and testing. In 5th a point could be made about the resilience of Eldar vehicles, however with the introduction of Hull Points they took a massive hit to their effectiveness and the same rules don't apply.

What do you think are the odds that Dire Avengers get 3+ armour? Fire Dragons are getting "Heavy Aspect Armour," and they don't look any more "armoured" than Dire Avengers.

On this subject: don't worry, those calling WAAC are simply unable to move on past their current codex and are deathly afraid of change. If anything were to disrupt their current understanding of the codex and they would be forced to go through the same process of adapting, understanding and testing. In 5th a point could be made about the resilience of Eldar vehicles, however with the introduction of Hull Points they took a massive hit to their effectiveness and the same rules don't apply.

 launcelot7891 wrote:
What do you think are the odds that Dire Avengers get 3+ armour? Fire Dragons are getting "Heavy Aspect Armour," and they don't look any more "armoured" than Dire Avengers.

I think they have Aspect Armour. Which is a 4+ and works on Howling Banshees, Dire Avengers, and maybe Swooping Hawks. The worse armour being Mesh and is used on Guardians and Rangers. Heavy Aspect Armor is saved for Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, and Striking Scorpions.

 Mkvenner wrote:

 launcelot7891 wrote:
What do you think are the odds that Dire Avengers get 3+ armour? Fire Dragons are getting "Heavy Aspect Armour," and they don't look any more "armoured" than Dire Avengers.

I think they have Aspect Armour. Which is a 4+ and works on Howling Banshees, Dire Avengers, and maybe Swooping Hawks. The worse armour being Mesh and is used on Guardians and Rangers. Heavy Aspect Armor is saved for Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, and Striking Scorpions.

Why do you think they'll change Fire Dragons, but not Dire Avengers? Just curious.

 launcelot7891 wrote:

 Mkvenner wrote:

 launcelot7891 wrote:
What do you think are the odds that Dire Avengers get 3+ armour? Fire Dragons are getting "Heavy Aspect Armour," and they don't look any more "armoured" than Dire Avengers.

I think they have Aspect Armour. Which is a 4+ and works on Howling Banshees, Dire Avengers, and maybe Swooping Hawks. The worse armour being Mesh and is used on Guardians and Rangers. Heavy Aspect Armor is saved for Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, and Striking Scorpions.

Why do you think they'll change Fire Dragons, but not Dire Avengers? Just curious.

Because there is a preview image of the codex in the Apple Store with the Fire Dragon army list entry. All of them are in Heavy Aspect Armour which confers a 3+ save.

 Mkvenner wrote:

 launcelot7891 wrote:

 Mkvenner wrote:

 launcelot7891 wrote:
What do you think are the odds that Dire Avengers get 3+ armour? Fire Dragons are getting "Heavy Aspect Armour," and they don't look any more "armoured" than Dire Avengers.

I think they have Aspect Armour. Which is a 4+ and works on Howling Banshees, Dire Avengers, and maybe Swooping Hawks. The worse armour being Mesh and is used on Guardians and Rangers. Heavy Aspect Armor is saved for Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, and Striking Scorpions.

Why do you think they'll change Fire Dragons, but not Dire Avengers? Just curious.

Because there is a preview image of the codex in the Apple Store with the Fire Dragon army list entry. All of them are in Heavy Aspect Armour which confers a 3+ save.

LOL... I meant why do you think they won't change Dire Avengers. I know that Fire Dragons are changing.

 launcelot7891 wrote:

 Mkvenner wrote:

 launcelot7891 wrote:
What do you think are the odds that Dire Avengers get 3+ armour? Fire Dragons are getting "Heavy Aspect Armour," and they don't look any more "armoured" than Dire Avengers.

I think they have Aspect Armour. Which is a 4+ and works on Howling Banshees, Dire Avengers, and maybe Swooping Hawks. The worse armour being Mesh and is used on Guardians and Rangers. Heavy Aspect Armor is saved for Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, and Striking Scorpions.

Why do you think they'll change Fire Dragons, but not Dire Avengers? Just curious.

Nobody knows what the armour type is yet, but MEQ base troops are probably not what GW is going for with Eldar. I'm curious about the Dire Avenger aspect powers now that Bladestorm has been repurposed as a base weapon rule.

Has anybody heard if the heavy aspect armour negates fleet in this edition?

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 launcelot7891 wrote:

 Mkvenner wrote:

 launcelot7891 wrote:
What do you think are the odds that Dire Avengers get 3+ armour? Fire Dragons are getting "Heavy Aspect Armour," and they don't look any more "armoured" than Dire Avengers.

I think they have Aspect Armour. Which is a 4+ and works on Howling Banshees, Dire Avengers, and maybe Swooping Hawks. The worse armour being Mesh and is used on Guardians and Rangers. Heavy Aspect Armor is saved for Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, and Striking Scorpions.

Why do you think they'll change Fire Dragons, but not Dire Avengers? Just curious.

Nobody knows what the armour type is yet, but MEQ base troops are probably not what GW is going for with Eldar. I'm curious about the Dire Avenger aspect powers now that Bladestorm has been repurposed as a base weapon rule.

Has anybody heard if the heavy aspect armour negates fleet in this edition?

Fire Dragons have both Heavy Aspect Armour and Fleet, so I don't think so.

 launcelot7891 wrote:

 Mkvenner wrote:

 launcelot7891 wrote:

 Mkvenner wrote:

 launcelot7891 wrote:
What do you think are the odds that Dire Avengers get 3+ armour? Fire Dragons are getting "Heavy Aspect Armour," and they don't look any more "armoured" than Dire Avengers.

I think they have Aspect Armour. Which is a 4+ and works on Howling Banshees, Dire Avengers, and maybe Swooping Hawks. The worse armour being Mesh and is used on Guardians and Rangers. Heavy Aspect Armor is saved for Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, and Striking Scorpions.

Why do you think they'll change Fire Dragons, but not Dire Avengers? Just curious.

Because there is a preview image of the codex in the Apple Store with the Fire Dragon army list entry. All of them are in Heavy Aspect Armour which confers a 3+ save.

LOL... I meant why do you think they won't change Dire Avengers. I know that Fire Dragons are changing.

Sorry, I was going off of what was known. Don't like to speculate too much. Dire Avengers armor doesn't look that thick or mirror the heavier armored models (Except for Fire Dragons, but they only recently changed). I figured they will stay as a 4+ unless we want them to get rather expensive.

I wonder what sort of difference Dark Reapers with a 2+ save would make...

Fire Dragons used to have 3+. GW seems to be revisiting past editions, which is cool for us nostalgic types. Avengers have always had 4+. I wonder if Hawks will go back to 5+. Looking at some of the sample lists showed aspects without exarchs, so I guess they're still optional.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I wonder what sort of difference Dark Reapers with a 2+ save would make...

They have Slow and Purposeful now which is pretty hot. They've always been my favorite aspect.

Nocturnus wrote:
Fire Dragons used to have 3+. GW seems to be revisiting past editions, which is cool for us nostalgic types. Avengers have always had 4+. I wonder if Hawks will go back to 5+. Looking at some of the sample lists showed aspects without exarchs, so I guess they're still optional.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I wonder what sort of difference Dark Reapers with a 2+ save would make...

They have Slow and Purposeful now which is pretty hot. They've always been my favorite aspect.

Ah... I didn't know that about Fire Dragons. I guess that kills my hopes for Dire Avengers then.

Nocturnus wrote:
Fire Dragons used to have 3+. GW seems to be revisiting past editions, which is cool for us nostalgic types. Avengers have always had 4+. I wonder if Hawks will go back to 5+. Looking at some of the sample lists showed aspects without exarchs, so I guess they're still optional.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I wonder what sort of difference Dark Reapers with a 2+ save would make...

They have Slow and Purposeful now which is pretty hot. They've always been my favorite aspect.

2+ save with Slow and Purposeful would be so amazing...

JB_Man wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:
Fire Dragons used to have 3+. GW seems to be revisiting past editions, which is cool for us nostalgic types. Avengers have always had 4+. I wonder if Hawks will go back to 5+. Looking at some of the sample lists showed aspects without exarchs, so I guess they're still optional.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I wonder what sort of difference Dark Reapers with a 2+ save would make...

They have Slow and Purposeful now which is pretty hot. They've always been my favorite aspect.

2+ save with Slow and Purposeful would be so amazing...

QFT!

Nocturnus wrote:

JB_Man wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:
Fire Dragons used to have 3+. GW seems to be revisiting past editions, which is cool for us nostalgic types. Avengers have always had 4+. I wonder if Hawks will go back to 5+. Looking at some of the sample lists showed aspects without exarchs, so I guess they're still optional.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I wonder what sort of difference Dark Reapers with a 2+ save would make...

They have Slow and Purposeful now which is pretty hot. They've always been my favorite aspect.

2+ save with Slow and Purposeful would be so amazing...

QFT!

Yeah, Broadsides with slow and purposeful with their amazing new rail rifles are great! And they got 5 points cheaper! [\bitter]

Dark Reapers have always interested me, but the other options simply outdo them in terms of my Tau/Eldar army. I'm extraordinarily curious what they do with them.

 Mkvenner wrote:
Here's the sheet for you Nocturnus.

That's kind of odd. My White Dwarf has the T and U correct, but the red dot for M is missing the actual letter "M".

Still, neither version has mistakes severe enough that you can't figure out what's meant to be labeled as what.

Not sure if that is been posted yet, but the Eldar FAQ is up.

Yes, this is before the codex came out. They are REALLY on top of this.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3250082a_Eldar_v1.0_June13.pdf

 Shandara wrote:

 Pershore wrote:
Haven't seen this posted in the thread. In the WD battle report a Wave Serpent "fires its serpent shield". It doesn't sound mega powerful - it kills 2 Necron Warriors - but it maybe another nice little capability for the Serpents to have.

Another blast from the past, although I think the Apocalypse Wave Serpent formation can do it too.

In Apoc it did create a wave of force, but only forced pinning checks

Having read the white dwarf battle report and seen the pictures, I'm wondering if apoc is being thrown out and existing apoc models are being rolled into regular 40k.

The wraith knight model just doesn't belong. It is way too big.

Given that the battle report was a 2k point game, you can kind of approximate the point cost of the wraith knight. And the values in coming up with are FAR below what you would expect it to go for.

The only reason I can come up with for that is that it was originally an apoc release.

 Happygrunt wrote:
Not sure if that is been posted yet, but the Eldar FAQ is up.

Yes, this is before the codex came out. They are REALLY on top of this.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3250082a_Eldar_v1.0_June13.pdf

Yeah, it's been up for a couple of days.

I'm a little puzzled about the 1 errata entry and 3 blank pages...