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Lets say Maelstrom is right, this means Wayland games drove them out of business and it's Waylands fault allot of customers got burnt.

Lets say Wayland is right, this means they protected the business as a whole, lost a competitor and in the end protected future people from getting burnt by MG.

No matter who is right or wrong I still lost my money, as did ALLOT of other people. I have no idea how much money MG owes in outstanding orders and they will most likely have deleted their database or transferred it to EotS, Maunsfeld or whatever it's called this week.

I dont know who to believe and in the end it doesn't matter, I got burnt as did the person who sent me his money so I could buy our order from MG. I'm paying him back so in my case only I will have gotten burnt. It's just £105 but if you tally up everyone's outstanding orders it could be tens of thousands of pounds.


There is an alternative to this though. As Wayland claims they did "offer to buy Maelstrom Games, INCLUDING honouring all liabilities for the business."
Heck they did so twice!


So what I'm proposing here is for Wayland to honour this offer now and come out as the saviour of the UK gaming market.
They have no obligations to do this, nor can we expect them to do something like this. I'm just saying that if they did, I'm sure the PR from this would get them ALLOT of gamer cred and ALLOT of new customers as well.
Offering the people who go burnt store credit works too, or say 50% off the amount scammed by MG.
I'm sure a PR stunt like this would end up on the news all over the UK, probably around Europe as well. In the least it will get talked about in every gaming store around the world where people have access to and are active on the gaming forums out there.
Perhaps a news program would do a report on how people got scammed by MG, how Wayland tried to help them by buying MG including their debt but the greedy devils refused and rather burnt their customers by stealing and transferring all their money over to other companies. Despite this Wayland chose to honour their offer even without obligation and thus saved the trust in the uk online wargaming market!

Something like this would probably be extremely hard to do though as I'm sure MG would have no intentions of giving Wayland their data bases of unfulfilled orders, heck it might not even be legal to transfer those files.

Wayland could do a small promo I suppose, let's say free shipping one 1 order if you check a box stating you got burnt by Maelstrom and when you place the order Wayland will send a gift from this website to Rob Lane.

grefven wrote:

Noir wrote:

grefven wrote:

Noir wrote:
Wayland Games, THANK YOU.

Now no one else can be ripped off by Maelstorm. And you used a common pratice to do it. It not you fault Maelstorm made it easy for you.

People weren't "ripped off" by Maelstrom until Wayland forced them to it.

You really belive that? So everyone was paying for the item the wanted and getting them, instead of paying money to buy models for other people with there money, and hoping more poeple would buy stuff so Mealstorm could buy the product the want.

100K of debt say on way more then the other.

Granted, they were in financial difficulties obviously, seeing they had high debts. But according to MGs announcement, they had an agreement to pay off that debt with 500 a day, or 15000 a month. But prior of this "forced resolution" by Wayland MG was still fulfulling their orders. I ain't saying that they would have managed to come out unscattered, but I ain't either saying that they wouldn't. Wayland made sure, though, that they wouldn't. And effectively made sure a lot of customers of MG of late wasn't getting their orders. Thus, Wayland forced them into action with their firesales, but it wasn't enough, obviously. Also, I ain't saying that MG has nothing of the blame. Obviously they do with their "moving warehouse", lack of communication, splitting up business, etc. But to state that Wayland did the right thing, unbiased, is bulls'it in my opinion.

If MG was on the up and up (ie not using current orders to pay for previous orders) they would have been able to send everyone what they ordered. I don't really buy that Wayland is the good guy here either but to say that MG was fulfilling orders is stretching it more than a bit.

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
So what I'm proposing here is for Wayland to honour this offer now and come out as the saviour of the UK gaming market.
They have no obligations to do this, nor can we expect them to do something like this. I'm just saying that if they did, I'm sure the PR from this would get them ALLOT of gamer cred and ALLOT of new customers as well.

What would they be buying? Maelstrom have no stock, no warehouse, no staff and no money. It all belongs to EotS who Wayland have no stake in.

Wayland Games acted in a way any business would react to this situation.

Now I'm not saying buying out your biggest competitors debt and then giving them 1 calendar month to repay this debt as fair, but indeed business, and in business this was a very well executed move.

As Wayland's statement reads 'we tried to purchase MG' but in this attempt failed to receive a reply. So the next best thing to do is remove the competition by technically purchasing MG by buying out their debt... Maybe, buying the STOCK that Maelstrom did hold, could've helped keep both Maelstrom operational and therefore MG able to pay back a bit more of their debt to Simple Miniature Games...

But if MG was allowed to remain operational would they have learned a lesson or carried on ripping customers off? This is where I believe WG protecting the customer and industry part probably comes into play!

I myself - Like Psychotic Storm states, am curious as to why SMG sold the debt to MG's competitor? Surely a bank or a debt collection agency - like other credit companies refer debt too - would have been more of a professional move. That said though if SMG was actually struggling to pay their own debts to suppliers, then going down this route would be a slow painstaking process... So indeed selling to a competitor to receive the money faster is a better choice for protecting themselves and their future!!

The only thing us folk can do is sit and speculate. The only ones with the true facts are SMG and WG...

The most important thing here is that the customer gets what they deserve - be it goods or refunds. As Wayland does state, it's important to keep the customers confident in internet retailers.

Will they fulfill the orders of customers - this is an interesting one, as they would've just forked out x amount of thousands to pay off a debt, so do they now send x amount of thousands of their own stock out to MG customers! I think refunds from credit card companies, banks and PayPal will be the answer to this question.

TSD

 George Spiggott wrote:

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
So what I'm proposing here is for Wayland to honour this offer now and come out as the saviour of the UK gaming market.
They have no obligations to do this, nor can we expect them to do something like this. I'm just saying that if they did, I'm sure the PR from this would get them ALLOT of gamer cred and ALLOT of new customers as well.

What would they be buying? Maelstrom have no stock, no warehouse, no staff and no money. It all belongs to EotS who Wayland have no stake in.

Exactly, but EotS most likely have no intentions of honouring MGs outstanding orders. Wayland wouldn't be buying anything, they would be giving away stuff for free to the people who got scammed by MG so that we who got scammed gets something instead of nothing. Wayland would gain nothing but good PR and probably allot of new customers.

Waylands shouldnt have to, nor will they imo, hurt themselves by offering 50% off products to people affected by Maelstroms collopse, nor are they any way responable for the demise of MG, if MG's never gave Waylands the oppurtunity to buy debt from a supplier this would never have happened, if MG were cash flow positive this would not have happened, this all boils down to MG it began with them and imo it doesnt matter how it ended as it was pretty envitable, cash flow is VITAL to any business

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
Exactly, but EotS most likely have no intentions of honouring MGs outstanding orders. Wayland wouldn't be buying anything, they would be giving away stuff for free to the people who got scammed by MG so that we who got scammed gets something instead of nothing. Wayland would gain nothing but good PR and probably allot of new customers.

EotS don't have any outstanding orders Maelstrom do.

Basically you're asking Wayland to pay Maelstrom for nothing (IMO if Wayland are the largest creditor then Wayland now pretty much own Maelstrom anyhow) then give away lost of stock. I don't think the extra PR is worth that much.

grefven wrote:


Granted, they were in financial difficulties obviously, seeing they had high debts. But according to MGs announcement, they had an agreement to pay off that debt with 500 a day, or 15000 a month. But prior of this "forced resolution" by Wayland MG was still fulfulling their orders. I ain't saying that they would have managed to come out unscattered, but I ain't either saying that they wouldn't. Wayland made sure, though, that they wouldn't. And effectively made sure a lot of customers of MG of late wasn't getting their orders. Thus, Wayland forced them into action with their firesales, but it wasn't enough, obviously. Also, I ain't saying that MG has nothing of the blame. Obviously they do with their "moving warehouse", lack of communication, splitting up business, etc. But to state that Wayland did the right thing, unbiased, is bulls'it in my opinion.

Prior to the forced resolution MG was already having problems fulfilling orders. It should be patently apparent by looking at what products were not coming into stock that they were having problems with several distributors.

They also lied. Repeatedly. Claiming they needed money for a new warehouse. That the distributors were out of stock of X/Y/Z. That it was GW's fault etc.


The facts which are not in dispute are that Wayland took a 100k debt on from simple. An amount that must have been significant from a small distrbutor. They then called in that debt and maelstrom didn't pay it. And moreover, the MD of maelstrom had already been setting up spin-off/shell companies.

Maelstrom continued taking orders when they knew theywould not be fulfilling them.

I don't carecabout Wayland' s motivation. I do care that simple are still in business, probably because of Wayland and that maelstrom lied over and over again. I fervently hope that trading standards and Hmrc are able to bring action against the directors.

 thesupplydrop wrote:
Wayland Games acted in a way any business would react to this situation.

I myself - Like Psychotic Storm states, am curious as to why SMG sold the debt to MG's competitor? Surely a bank or a debt collection agency - like other credit companies refer debt too - would have been more of a professional move. That said though if SMG was actually struggling to pay their own debts to suppliers, then going down this route would be a slow painstaking process... So indeed selling to a competitor to receive the money faster is a better choice for protecting themselves and their future!!

Why not a bank, well banks like to buy debt when there is a chance the debt will get paid off, it way banks sell debt to others company when it looks like they willn't have the debt paid. What banks going to by a bad debt note. More so if the company not even worth the amount of debt.

What's the point of it all if Maelstrom just changes it's name and carries on regardless? Who in their right mind is going to supply them now, knowing that EotS could go the same way...

Fairly long time lurker, 1st time poster, do Wayland have any plans if they can get the Eye Of The Storm venue? Just me being nosey

A good question would be, if the demand for one calendar month was not made, would all this thing have happened?

Was Maelstrom hell bend or ripping customers, or was it a result of an ultimately failed, desperate last attempt?

grefven wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Typically a company calling in a debt would need to give a months notice

so Wayland buys debt and then immediatley calls it in on 1st Oct,

Maelstrom then had 1 month to find the cash

hence the fire sale to try and do so, probably ending on the last day before the court got involved

Ok, change the word "lying" for "purposely not informing". Maelstrom knew they would not be able to pull through but they still continued the "sales".

If they were thinking that, then they wouldn't send out orders that are dropping in to people every now and then. I think they hoped that the sales was going to be enough, but it wasn't. Then together with the snowball effect with people (rightfully so, I must add) cancelling their orders to get their money back. It didn't add up in the end then.

Ahh... so you pick the company that lie for 6 month.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
A good question would be, if the demand for one calendar month was not made, would all this thing have happened?

Was Maelstrom hell bend or ripping customers, or was it a result of an ultimately failed, desperate last attempt?

A good question, would be why would you put your company (in this case MG) in a place to be snap like that, in the first place.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
A good question would be, if the demand for one calendar month was not made, would all this thing have happened?

Was Maelstrom hell bend or ripping customers, or was it a result of an ultimately failed, desperate last attempt?

Does it really matter? They knew well enough that even such desperate measures would not save the company.

The long and short of it all as far as I can see is as follows:

Wayland brought the debt to sink their main rival

Maelstrom stalls on the debt payment to accumulate as much money as possible to kickstart EOS

Customers get screwed by Wayland and Maelstrom and are expected to take it

Evilref wrote:
The facts which are not in dispute are that Wayland took a 100k debt on from simple. An amount that must have been significant from a small distrbutor. They then called in that debt and maelstrom didn't pay it. And moreover, the MD of maelstrom had already been setting up spin-off/shell companies.

Wayland bought the debt so it's unlikely they paid 100,000 for it. Probably more like half that. It's still a big chunk though.

 Alkasyn wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
A good question would be, if the demand for one calendar month was not made, would all this thing have happened?

Was Maelstrom hell bend or ripping customers, or was it a result of an ultimately failed, desperate last attempt?

Does it really matter? They knew well enough that even such desperate measures would not save the company.

Good question, if MG demise was solely on the debt been called, it would matter, if they would explode by their stupid decisions anyway it doesn't matter, in nay case I do not feel the customer benefited by the whole story in any way and I am a bit worried if and when such a move may happen again.

HopScotch wrote:
The long and short of it all as far as I can see is as follows:

Wayland brought the debt to sink their main rival

Maelstrom stalls on the debt payment to accumulate as much money as possible to kickstart EOS

Customers get screwed by Wayland and Maelstrom and are expected to take it

How did Wayland screw customers, by not giving them the product the paid for from Mealstorm? Do you think a bank would do something different, like sit on a debt that just keeps getting bigger so MAYBE Mealstrom customers MIGHT get there stuff.

HopScotch wrote:
The long and short of it all as far as I can see is as follows:

Wayland brought the debt to sink their main rival

Maelstrom stalls on the debt payment to accumulate as much money as possible to kickstart EOS

Customers get screwed by Wayland and Maelstrom and are expected to take it

Exactly my thought which is why I posted my proposal, see it as a way for Wayland to redeem themselves in the eyes of us internet shoppers. They did state they were just trying to protect the market and customers as a whole by trying to buy MG and in the end destroying them.

In the end though I doubt Wayland will do anything other than laugh all the way to the bank as MG, EotS, Maunsfeld etc will have lost all credibility and one of the few options left will be Wayland.
Call it a lesser of two evils if you want, though Wayland hasn't been evil, more like sinisterly clever.

Lorien wrote:

As a German saying goes:
"Lieber ein Ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne Ende."
which loosely translates into:
"It's best to get unpleasant things over and done with."

Lorien, It as been 10y+ since I have had German in high school, but that is a damm fine saying!

I would translate it to something like:
"I rather have an end with fear than fear without end!"

To the rest: Sorry 'bout the off tropic.

 MadCowCrazy wrote:

HopScotch wrote:
The long and short of it all as far as I can see is as follows:

Wayland brought the debt to sink their main rival

Maelstrom stalls on the debt payment to accumulate as much money as possible to kickstart EOS

Customers get screwed by Wayland and Maelstrom and are expected to take it

Exactly my thought which is why I posted my proposal, see it as a way for Wayland to redeem themselves in the eyes of us internet shoppers. They did state they were just trying to protect the market and customers as a whole by trying to buy MG and in the end destroying them.

In the end though I doubt Wayland will do anything other than laugh all the way to the bank as MG, EotS, Maunsfeld etc will have lost all credibility and one of the few options left will be Wayland.
Call it a lesser of two evils if you want, though Wayland hasn't been evil, more like sinisterly clever.

Why do Wayland have to redeem themselves? you do relise this was going to happen (MG going bust) sooner or later.

And wayland laugh all the way to the bank? they have just spent 10's of thousands of pounds and will be in the same boat as EVERY customer of MG's that is owed money, they are now a creditor of MG. There is nothing sinister about what Waylands have done. Now if they said a few more months down the line, after people have spent more money with MG, what with the xmas sales and spending spree's coming up and MG selling more stock they didnt have, then Waylands saying they could have stopped this months ago, that would have been sinister.

I understand you are annoyed at being out of pocket but that is down to MG and MG alone, may I ask when you placed the order?

Asking a.n.other company to give away product and make a loss to make up for a competitors incompetence/fraud is more than optimistic. Wayland has no way of knowing who ordered what, who received what or who got refunds from banks, credit cards or PayPal.

It's asking for them to give away thousands of dollars to people who might not be out of pocket at all.

MarkyMark wrote:
Why do Wayland have to redeem themselves? you do relise this was going to happen (MG going bust) sooner or later.

Exactly. Maelstrom selling off all their assets is what finally drove them under. If Maelstrom still owned EotS and Mierce then Wayland would now own them and Maelstrom would still be in business (as a subsidiary of Wayland).

Interesting post http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-truth-about-maelstrom-games.html

MadCowCrazy wrote:
In the end though I doubt Wayland will do anything other than laugh all the way to the bank as MG, EotS, Maunsfeld etc will have lost all credibility and one of the few options left will be Wayland.

Check out dark sphere I have never had an issue with them. I for the time being will be avoiding Wayland until all the facts come to light I certainly don't think they are innocent in all this.

Noir wrote:

How did Wayland screw customers, by not giving them the product the paid for from Mealstorm?

Wayland has shown (in my eyes at least) that they have as little respect for the gaming community as Maelstrom and associates as they were well aware of the problems for months and sat back and watched as hundreds (maybe) of us continued to buy from Maelstrom knowing the majority of us were throwing good money after bad.
If they really were the heroes they are trying to make out, and if they cared so much about the customers and suppliers why didn't they step in much sooner and prevent all this anguish. Two emails just doesn't cut it with me.

That's how Wayland has screwed us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the record I am not under impression that Wayland should fulfil Maelstroms orders, those died when Maelstrom stopped responding to emails.

I don't hold Wayland responsible for the demise of Maelstrom either, that lies squarely at Rob Lanes door and no where else. I just wonder why they didn't step in earlier, why did they delay?

HopScotch

Waylands tried to buy Maelstrom months ago, may i think it said. Any press release from Waylands saying Maelstrom is in trouble would be very contentious, and probably illegal (at least at the time). You really think while trying to buy Maelstrom Waylands are going to say they are going bust? of course not. You have no idea on how business works if you think Waylands screwed you.

Do you think the credit insurance companies screwed Comet? because they are the reason comet had to go in administration.

MarkyMark wrote:
HopScotch

Waylands tried to buy Maelstrom months ago, may i think it said. Any press release from Waylands saying Maelstrom is in trouble would be very contentious, and probably illegal (at least at the time). You really think while trying to buy Maelstrom Waylands are going to say they are going bust? of course not. You have no idea on how business works if you think Waylands screwed you.

Do you think the credit insurance companies screwed Comet? because they are the reason comet had to go in administration.

I'm not taking it personally i know they didn't actually screw us, I am just interested why they didn't nip all this in the bud back in May? I wouldn't expect them to come out with a press release just do exactly what they have done in the last week or two back in May.

Maelstrom wouldnt sell to them, ,why I dont know maybe Rob Lane thought he could salvage the company, quite possibly he didnt want to sell to a rival company. When two business occupy the same space in a industry there are tensions and rivaleris, I have seen it a lot in my industries.

MarkyMark wrote:
Maelstrom wouldnt sell to them, ,why I dont know maybe Rob Lane thought he could salvage the company, quite possibly he didnt want to sell to a rival company. When two business occupy the same space in a industry there are tensions and rivaleris, I have seen it a lot in my industries.

How did they manage to buy the debt in the end then? I thought they bought it directly from/off the supplier Maelstrom owed it to? Which is why I couldn't understand why they didn't just do that earlier and call in the administrators then and there.

They did indeed buy the debt from a third party. Maybe because the debt was being serviced then, maybe because simple mini's did not relise the extent of Maelstroms overall debts.

Also buying the debt then could have used up a large chunk of Waylands cash reserves that they wanted to use to buy Maelstrom with.

Theres plently of maybes and probables but we will not know the whole story probably for ever sadly.