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 azreal13 wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
No, the don't have any documentation because you never sent any.

However you can claim you did and they lost it. Nobody can prove otherwise. Unless you're dumb enough to document what you're doing.

Then your claim is worthless. It's like trying to fraudulently claim you purchased something on layby - your argument will implode approximately five seconds after you refuse to provide a single iota of evidence that any contract exists.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Also, please note that this provision is regarding criminal, rather then civil liability. My presumption is that there would be a procedure for the creditors to be made whole, but I am insufficiently familiar with UK law to discern it. Curious to hear from people more conversant with the relevant statutes on this matter.

Generally, limited liability only applies in the absence of wrongdoing. If Rob Lane is found to have been committing fraud it is likely that he will be personally liable for any debts - including to his customers - that his company cannot cover.

Burden of proof does not lie with the defendant. Besides, I have My copy of the purchase order. I created one last week when it became apparent I'd need to prove I tried to order the goods.

Regards the fraud aspect, here is a good example of some proof that they were committing premeditated theft... remember me ranting about MG when the DV limited edition first came out?

The MG site said, as did Wayland and all the others, that GW had limited them to a set amount. When I went to get one on Wayland, they had it marked as "Sold out" as they had obviously burned through their allocation pronto.

Obviously I then went to MG, no sold out from them. So I ordered, and the money flew out of my account.

No correspondence back, and then obviously a fortnight later, they start saying most people aren't getting one.

Surely to feth, if they got told, and they even told us via their own website, that GW were limiting the numbers of the set given to retailers, they should have done what the other retailers seemed to do? You know, actually stop taking orders when they hit a set number? I had several replies on my thread people saying the same... so clearly this happened to gak loads of people! I cant know the numbers, but if plenty just here on dakka said the same, obviously they did it to loads of people.

So the fact that they endlessly took orders, proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that it was pre meditated, and they knew for a fact that people were never going to get their set anyway!

That make sense? Maybe they charged 2000 people, even though they were well aware they were only getting 100 boxes. Surely that's not just bang out of order and unprofessional, its bloody illegal right? I mean, think about If a football team has a 32,000 seater stadium, but they just keep charging everyone's cards even if they have burned through the 32,000.. to the point where two days before the game they have sold 80,000 tickets, and then forcing them into an epic feth about to obtain their cash back, its not kosher is it?

@ Andrew, Elgin is the most Northern place I have been in the UK..

IF you could prove that they knowingly sold more sets than they were allocated, I guess you'd have a case.

Small potatoes if you're looking for a meaningful prosecution though.

I'd just like to say that at some point I've started to feel like I'm arguing MGs point. This isn't the case, I'm afraid I'm just pretty pessimistic about anything being successfully done about their behaviour.

If anyone preordered product which was not fulfilled they should contact their local trading standards (UK). Same with anyone who has other money/stock owed. It`s worth doing this even if you got a refund from paypal or your credit card.

The more complaints and reports that trading standards receive, the more likely they are to investigate.

That investigationis, given what has happened, likely to stretch to HMRC and possibly the fraud squad of the local constabulary.

You'd have thought Simple Miniatures / Wayland would have a case against Maelstrom for fraud, too. It certainly *sounds* like Maelstrom knew a long time ago that they would never be paying their debt -- probably, when they placed the orders that created that debt.

In most supplier-retailer contracts, there's a clause that final title to the goods does not belong to the retailer until full payment has been made. So, could be, it's not just a question of Maelstrom owing Simple / Wayland a lot of cash; it is quite likely that Maelstrom quite knowingly 'stole' a load of goods from Simple with every intention of not paying for them.

 azreal13 wrote:
IF you could prove that they knowingly sold more sets than they were allocated, I guess you'd have a case.

Small potatoes if you're looking for a meaningful prosecution though.

I'd just like to say that at some point I've started to feel like I'm arguing MGs point. This isn't the case, I'm afraid I'm just pretty pessimistic about anything being successfully done about their behaviour.

Bolded the important bit: as you noted earlier, the burden of proof does not lie on MG, it does not, however, therefore lie on the wronged consumer (with regards to the criminal statute). It lies on the prosecutorial authorities, who, if there is a prima facia case, and the events as reported would seem to indicate so, would be authorized to investigate the behavior in question.

Again, I should very much like to hear from a UK attorney (or would that be barrister ?), as the reported facts would seem sufficient to proceed with a case of fraud at least to the investigatory stage, more to the point, multiple counts of fraud under the relevant statute.

Realize, the reach of any of the sites such as DakkaDakka is very small overall, and yet the number of people here victimized would seem to at least be in the double digits. How many victims would be discovered if MG were compelled to open their books? Defrauding hundreds of people of 10, 20, 50 or 100 pounds very quickly can escalate into the pattern of a criminal enterprise (again, local law may be different).

At least in the US, there would be certain remedies available to the victims of such a scheme: that a person wronged hundreds of people, but only to a small amount, would not eliminate their liability in civil or criminal court.

@Buzzsaw. In the UK we have Solicitors. They handle most day to day legal matters. Barristers are generally only retained as an advocate in a courtroom. They are the ones that typically wear the gowns and wigs.

Not relevant but you seemed interested!

Steve steveson wrote:
I think he means me... Matty had a little bit of a strop because I said, after 15 years of working in credit and dealing with hundreds of bankrupcys and liquidations, I think the law works fine just has problems with at times with improper trading not being properly enforced.

Matty on the otherhand thinks we should go back to the world of workhouses and debtors prison, dispite not understanding the basics of company law and the concept of limited liability (which I have pointed him to and he has clearly refused to read - and he wonders why I won't be drawn in to an argument with him...).

Ah, that makes more sense - when I saw Steve Jackson mentioned in this context, I was thinking Steve Jackson Games, hence the source request.

There is another option...

Local Mansfield newspapers, such as:

The Masfield and Ashfield Chad . With the 'contact us' link of newsdesk@chad.co.uk


Local newspapers are generally desperate for any stories that are remotely interesting. And finding out that someone local has allegedly ripped off dozens of people across Europe may be a bit of a coup compared to the local community "someone parked in my parking space" kind of thing.

 Compel wrote:
There is another option...

Local Mansfield newspapers, such as:

The Masfield and Ashfield Chad . With the 'contact us' link of newsdesk@chad.co.uk


Local newspapers are generally desperate for any stories that are remotely interesting. And finding out that someone local has allegedly ripped off dozens of people across Europe may be a bit of a coup compared to the local community "someone parked in my parking space" kind of thing.

That sounds about right, give the local rag a call. One person will be a disgruntled crank a few more will be an outrageous slight on the dignity of Nottingham.

We can have a picture of 'Northern Man' Matty (age irrelevant) with his fists up - and pockets empty - standing outside EOTS on the front page.

'Notorious bare knuckled dog fighter, Matty, fights his sternest battle as he takes on the Evil Empire of Rob Lane.'

Can anyone in the netherlands please advise me where the best place is to go and complain about ordering a set of dark vengeance back in august that was never sent? thnx

If you ordered it from Maelstrom, you would be best served by filing a complaint to the British authorities about it not your local authorities.

Hi Chrisjuuh, I live in the Netherlands too and ordered the Dark Vengeance set on september 1st. If you paid with a credit card like me, you can get your money back. Call the telephone number at the back of the credit card and they will tell you what form to fill in to get a refund (if you paid by paypal you might be out of luck tough, with the 40 day limit to file a claim)

 azreal13 wrote:
IF you could prove that they knowingly sold more sets than they were allocated, I guess you'd have a case.

Small potatoes if you're looking for a meaningful prosecution though.

I'd just like to say that at some point I've started to feel like I'm arguing MGs point. This isn't the case, I'm afraid I'm just pretty pessimistic about anything being successfully done about their behaviour.

Oh yeah I agree entirely.. See what I mean though? Two more Dutch lads have turned up saying they also ordered DV, paid for it, and never got the bloody thing. I wonder just how many people they charged, I would love to know.

GFG and Wayland websites said they were only getting something like 75 copies or what have you, and yet MG seem to have taken.. well.. who knows? But I have identified about ten people on dakka alone, so maybe its in the thousands.

As I said, you cant convince me that this happened due to naivety or stupidity... Its premeditated fething theft and the bloke wants banging up.

Which clearly wont happen, and leads us back to my disagreement with Steve. I know for a fact that Lane wont be punished in any meaningful way for his actions, and its annoying, because he appears to have behaved in an appalling manner. He carried on charging peoples cards knowing full well they weren't going to get their goods. Why should the (possibly) thousands of people who he snatched money off despite being fully aware that he wasn't going to deliver/was entering administration have to jump through hoops to get their money back?

The bloke wants hauling over the coals in my eyes.

Bazz wrote:
Hi Chrisjuuh, I live in the Netherlands too and ordered the Dark Vengeance set on september 1st. If you paid with a credit card like me, you can get your money back. Call the telephone number at the back of the credit card and they will tell you what form to fill in to get a refund (if you paid by paypal you might be out of luck tough, with the 40 day limit to file a claim)

payed with paypal...didnt know there was a 45 day max.....very anoyed with myself...

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you ordered it from Maelstrom, you would be best served by filing a complaint to the British authorities about it not your local authorities.

which authotiries should i deal with? Trading standards?

I don't know exactly who, but "Trading Standards" has come up multiple times in this thread so it would not hurt to contact them.

chrisjuuuh wrote:

Bazz wrote:
Hi Chrisjuuh, I live in the Netherlands too and ordered the Dark Vengeance set on september 1st. If you paid with a credit card like me, you can get your money back. Call the telephone number at the back of the credit card and they will tell you what form to fill in to get a refund (if you paid by paypal you might be out of luck tough, with the 40 day limit to file a claim)

payed with paypal...didnt know there was a 45 day max.....very anoyed with myself...

You can still open a case with PayPal, 45 days or not.

I opened a case with paypal about a week ago. It was almost immediatly closed with no other form of contact. seemed pretty definitive. should i try again?

EDIT: just logged into paypal and cant dispute the claim so i gues thats that...will be a lot more carefull in future

This is my first post on Dakka, been lurking for a while but finally decided to dive in.

First off, I should mention that I haven't read this entire thread, just the first and last few pages.

I've used MG many times in the past with no trouble - but a couple of months back I placed a couple of orders for IN-STOCK goods, both of which got marked 'Dispatched' (on a Sunday? hmm)

At any rate, the goods never showed up, they stopped answering their phones and email (and I was phoning up to 5 times a day for weeks). I eventually opened a paypal claim which they didn't bother to contest, and ultimately got my money back.

At the expense of sounding cynical, I suspect they never sent the goods. 2nd class mail from ebayers was showing up in 2-3 days (and I was getting a LOT of it) yet somehow the packages from MG go missing - the ONLY post I've had trouble with in a decade of online shopping. More than a tad suspicious.

edit: ...and now I see the liquidation notice. D'oh. Debut post rendered pointless, lol

Bovrillor wrote:
This is my first post on Dakka, been lurking for a while but finally decided to dive in.

First off, I should mention that I haven't read this entire thread, just the first and last few pages.

I've used MG many times in the past with no trouble - but a couple of months back I placed a couple of orders for IN-STOCK goods, both of which got marked 'Dispatched' (on a Sunday? hmm)

At any rate, the goods never showed up, they stopped answering their phones and email (and I was phoning up to 5 times a day for weeks). I eventually opened a paypal claim which they didn't bother to contest, and ultimately got my money back.

At the expense of sounding cynical, I suspect they never sent the goods. 2nd class mail from ebayers was showing up in 2-3 days (and I was getting a LOT of it) yet somehow the packages from MG go missing - the ONLY post I've had trouble with in a decade of online shopping. More than a tad suspicious.

edit: ...and now I see the liquidation notice. D'oh. Debut post rendered pointless, lol

I wouldn't say pointless. It just adds to a point others have made that how many people who are not regular posters have also been ...how can I put it?...ill-served by Maelstrom? Forum posters are the tip of an iceberg.

As the company has not went into adminstration/liquidation, first point of contact would be the local trading standards or even Citizens Advice. Please note go to the local branch, not the national one. Check MG address and then try to carry out a branch check for those two.

Prosecution for fraud/embezzlement will not be legal authorities in this case. If an application for liquidation has went in it will be for responsibilty of the Administrator/Liquidator to prepare a report to the court for any possible illegal actions as to the trading of the business. I would hope that once someone had been appointed to that position then his details will be made available on MGs' website. Or you could ask WG as they will be the second to know.

The order position may just be an extreme attempt to trade them out of the red and that there was no attempt at fraud. I have seen it before I finished working in Insolvency.

@Matt I asked because I left Elgin a year ago, I was wondering if you were one of the few to have been posted to Fort George or Kinloss.

Cheers

Andrew

Have any of you noticed that nowadays nothing means what it used to mean

When somebody used to say that they were “moving to a bigger warehouse” they were basically …..moving to a bigger warehouse. But now it seems to mean that they are about to asset-strip the joint to setup shop next door! Or as seems to be in this case they couldn’t even be bothered to do that and just changed the shop sign!

From now on if any company says they are “moving warehouse” I am running for the hills (and that’s not an easy thing to do living in Holland! )

Move to Limburg son, unless you already reside there.

Them's foreign parts, for sure, down south.

I guess taking the money for special edition 40k starters, not delivering them and still keeping the money is illegal even in UK, right?

chrisjuuuh wrote:
I opened a case with paypal about a week ago. It was almost immediatly closed with no other form of contact. seemed pretty definitive. should i try again?

EDIT: just logged into paypal and cant dispute the claim so i gues thats that...will be a lot more carefull in future

If you pay paypal with your credit card, you can still call the credit card company with good chances of success. If you pay paypal with your bank account, bad luck.

Bazz wrote:
Have any of you noticed that nowadays nothing means what it used to mean

When somebody used to say that they were “moving to a bigger warehouse” they were basically …..moving to a bigger warehouse. But now it seems to mean that they are about to asset-strip the joint to setup shop next door! Or as seems to be in this case they couldn’t even be bothered to do that and just changed the shop sign!

From now on if any company says they are “moving warehouse” I am running for the hills (and that’s not an easy thing to do living in Holland! )

Rob lanes Guide to Language:

'We are moving to a new warehouse' = 'I just set up a new company, with your money'.

'In stock' = 'It's in stock some where on the planet, but not here.'

'Buy with confidence' = 'Of getting the shaft'.

'Worldwide shipping' = 'It'll never turn up'.

'DV limited edition' = 'C'mon suckers give me your cash'.

'Restrictive trade terms of of trading partners' = 'We can't pay the bills, but you are not to know that'.

'We were paying Simple Games' = 'You were paying simple games'.

'Wayland screwed us' = 'We were found out'.

'Eye of the storm' = 'Don't come in here'

'Mierce Miniatures' = 'Those non existent DV sets funded this range'.

 Shandara wrote:
Them's foreign parts, for sure, down south.

And no mistake! The good ol'boyz down here think anything below the Rhine is a mysterious foreign land shrouded in ...... well basically it's Southern Europe....well actually that's where Greece starts.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
'We were paying Simple Games' = 'You were paying simple games'.

Wouldn't that always be the case, Mr. Burning?

 Mr. Burning wrote:
'Mierce Miniatures' = 'Those non existent DV sets funded this range'.

And that is more than a slight exaggeration, given we've had Banelords/legions figures since at least February last year (going by the first post of this thread). I've tried going further back, but I couldn't find solid information. Given the earliest reference I can find on Dakka to the DV pre-order information is Aug 24th 2012, that's 18 months of models at a minimum before you can claim MG were taking DV money to fund a model line...

I've got less issues with your other points, but those two stuck out

I normally frequent several other wargaming forums, but I also just signed up to agree than a very large number of people appear to be getting shafted. Quite a few people I know are out of money, but this is the most informed discussion about it I found. I am not out of pocket, but only because I used paypal and a creditcard.

I ordered dark vengence- the ordinary version not the special edition, and a few other things from Maelstrom and they strung me along for a few weeks. Fortunately a web search turned up this thread (20+ pages ago), so next day I filed a complaint with paypal (which is much better than it used to be- I remember getting the "yeah, you win, but you can't have any money back because they emptied their account"). I then ordered the same stuff from Wayland- I had to pay postage, but then that is not a bad trade off for actually getting the goods. They weren't super quick but it was listed as out of stock when I ordered it and I think it was reasonable.

Oddly enough I made a second order from Maelstrom when it hit 70% discount- some black library and specialist games stuff. I noticed that some of the in stock stuff was getting through so a £20 gamble did not seem too bad, particularly when I could claim it back from the credit card company if it went wrong. All my items arrived ~3 days after I ordered them! In fact they arrived more than a week before I got a "dispatched" email. By this point, Maelstrom must have known they were stuffed, so why send out anything at all?

I have noticed that a couple of people in this thread seem to be giving Maelstrom the benefit of the doubt- I find it hard to agree with this: they lied about what they were doing for months (warehouses....), they lied about deliveries to me on the phone, they stopped responding to phone calls and emails, Paypal dumped them (probably due to numbers of complaints), they stopped paying their creditors, so had no chance of getting the miniatures they were still selling on their site and their statements try to make it seem as if it is all everyone else's fault. Did Wayland screw them over? I don't think that that was possible at that stage- they needed shutting down.

All I can hope is that the EotS venue survives- it is not like we have lots of good tournament venues. However I do hope it survives under new management.

small_furry_spider wrote:
All I can hope is that the EotS venue survives- it is not like we have lots of good tournament venues. However I do hope it survives under new management.

That remains to be seen, as a great many people may boycott both EotS and Mierce now, whether they were stung or not by this most villainous of behaviour.

small_furry_spider wrote:
I have noticed that a couple of people in this thread seem to be giving Maelstrom the benefit of the doubt- I find it hard to agree with this: they lied about what they were doing for months (warehouses....)

If MG had gone out and told us, the customers, "Hey, we are in heavy debts, and we will most likely fold our business shortly," how would you react to that? Would you continue buying or would you rather not?