Maelstrom Games taking the biscuit?

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**Ashitaka**

So that post which showed the email form Mierce seems ok - they're asking for permission to send the customer's info from Maelstrom to Mierce.

But from what I can gather in this thread Maelstrom, without permission had already transferred info and accounts to EOTS.

This seems to be a massive violation of data protection, and a legal issue, if EOTS and Maelstrom are indeed, different companies.

**Bolognesus**

OTOH it's probably a good faith mistake by folks without sufficient knowledge of relevant laws/regulations to at least 'fix' part of the problem and get people what they paid for.

if they'd been a Dutch store and they'd done precisely that, without asking permission, it'd been considered perfectly okay; they just used an intermediary (EOTS) to supply products to customers in some way. Down here, it'd been okay.
I can see why they might have sort of assumed it would be so in the UK as well. Now of course we all know what happens when you assume, but this is really, really the least of any of their flaws.
Good heavens, they're hardly selling your account data to spammers to fund mr Lane's cruise to the Bahama's

**Corso Vitt**

Posted By John-Paul on 13 Nov 2012 12:04 PM
It is Rob's intention to fullfill all the orders for FOW product he has outstanding and we are working with him to help facilitate this as best we can.
His business issues are out of our control but we are working with him to make sure all FOW customers get either stock or thier money.
I honestly could not tell you how this will play out in the end as we are a bystander in the mix like you but having recently met with Rob in person I am willing to take him at his word about his intentions as our working relationship over the years has earnt him that. I doubt the closure of his business is something he wanted but we will do what we can to help make sure FOW players are not left out in the cold.

So now looks to me like MG/EOTS is gone beyond taking the biscuit but is now robbing the biscuit factory.

Prior to this email - MG/EOTS No FOW stock and at least several dozen people had there accounts transferred to EOTS

After this email MG/EOTS seems to have enough FOW stock to clear quite a lot of there outstanding orders but magically no accounts seem to be working anymore.

**skarsol**

Corso Vitt wrote:
Wow, just when I think this FUBAR couldn't get any more FUBAR'd. Saw something on BF official forum advising that BF were going to look into making sure all outstanding customers got any FOW models or money returned. EOTS now has a plethora of FOW stock and what happens go to log into my MG account somehow transferred to EOTS and guess what I can no longer log in. So MG/EOTS now has stock but my transferred account has magically vanished.

I'm assuming and I reiterate I'm only assuming but it seems like MG/EOTS has went cap in hand to BF - please give us some stock so we can help customers - then they've taken that stock and flushed all remaining accounts. Its an assumption but at this moment in time it wouldn't surprise me...

... you guys realize this is why Mierce and BF never dropped below 50% during the firesale right? This was planned all along. I suspect an email similar to the Mierce one today will go out to all the people with outstanding BF orders shortly.

**Bolognesus**

skarsol wrote:
Corso Vitt wrote:
Wow, just when I think this FUBAR couldn't get any more FUBAR'd. Saw something on BF official forum advising that BF were going to look into making sure all outstanding customers got any FOW models or money returned. EOTS now has a plethora of FOW stock and what happens go to log into my MG account somehow transferred to EOTS and guess what I can no longer log in. So MG/EOTS now has stock but my transferred account has magically vanished.

I'm assuming and I reiterate I'm only assuming but it seems like MG/EOTS has went cap in hand to BF - please give us some stock so we can help customers - then they've taken that stock and flushed all remaining accounts. Its an assumption but at this moment in time it wouldn't surprise me...

... you guys realize this is why Mierce and BF never dropped below 50% during the firesale right? This was planned all along. I suspect an email similar to the Mierce one today will go out to all the people with outstanding BF orders shortly.

I can edit my personal details out of two invoices and post them for you if you like - both of them with a 70% discount on mierce models.
BF, I wouldn't know. have heard terrible, terrible things about the ruleset so wasn't really inclined to check them out even at that price

**DaveC**

Received my charge back refund today from the credit card company so all in it took 8 working days to get my money back.

**PLC**

Pretty sure you'll find that BF will be making sure their customers aren't out of pocket and that MG/EOTS will be paying for this through Battlefront use of venue at no cost for foreseeable future.

It is win-win for BF.....they look (and are) the good guys making sure customers don't lose and they have secure venue for their GTs

**Sining**

The Stranger wrote:
So here is the story as I understood it
MG is expanding from e-commerce to mini production. In order to gain in the long run from higher profit margins and answer back to the GW evil plan of ruling the mini world . To do that they spend a lot of funds in designing, producing and promoting their mini line as a premium product. To a point they succeeded.

They already have a strong card played against their trading competition. Free shipping! An established mini line would lift them even higher. They would have some serious assets and intellectual property instead of just being middleman. The competition worries a lot.

Poor managing decisions and business ethics lead to a substantial amount of dept to suppliers. The giant has clay feet but he is still a giant and able to force his conditions on smaller fish like Simple. They say to them we will pay you soon trust us. The same time they probably owe money to other associates. Then they change it to an informal paying arrangement. Simple worries they won't get their money.

MG already has problems with other suppliers and with customers due to their system of lying about their stocked items (as the whole industry does, to be honest). They start a pyramid system where new orders fund older overdue ones. Simple really worries as probably this kind of dept can cripple them. They go to a dept managing agency or bank and they don't like what they hear at all.

Meanwhile at Wayland the initial terror of an overgrown MG gives place to the hope of buying off a financial cornered competitor. They make an offer which is declined. Is it a bad offer? Is it just stubbornness? Only Rob Lane knows. I don't know the man but usually some businessmen have much in common with gamblers. They think that a good dice will save the day in the end. MG continues to receive orders and execute them problematically. At first they try to deny the problem. Simple freaks out and there comes Wayland with an offer to buy the dept right here right now with more favorable conditions than a bank or dept crows. They sell and get back what they can.

Wayland makes its move. Demands the full payment at an impossible deadline. I think that this move is a combined one. Take out a serious competitor AND a ticking bomb from the foundations of the English wargame industry. I believe them when they say that when MG was going to explode many small to medium companies would be affected. But off course that wasn't the only reason.

MG launches a desperate last charge with a series of sales. They know that they are going under but they deliberately defraud their customers by accepting orders they can't possibly execute. Zero communication, just more and more desperate sales ads. At the end were all is lost some would assume that the company would try to lift the mystery veil. No. They claim maintenance reasons for their closed down eshop. Somewhere on the globe some idiots still believe that everything is ok. After several days they come up with the truth of them closing down. And at the same time they blame Wayland for taking advantage of their leverage on them. Hello Rob! That's why they are called competitors and not friends and family!

I'm not sure Maelstrom opening its own miniature lines would have had its competitors quaking in their boots. It's basically 2 different businesses
Plus I doubt that the Mierce line would have been exclusive to maelstromgames online store. When people offer you money to stock your stuff, it generally doesn't make business sense to say no

**imrail**

Update from me, bank can't do anything and Paypal doesn't even respond the my emails.
The official notice on the website from maelstromgames does give a bit hope though.

"Maelstrom Games Ltd. can only apologise to those customers whose orders have not been fulfilled as it is now impossible for Maelstrom Games Ltd. to fulfil them, excepting those for Mierce Miniatures products (fulfilled by Mierce Miniatures in November) and Battlefront Miniatures products (fulfilled by Maelstrom Games in partnership with Battlefront Miniatures and Maunsfeld Gaming in November), all of which will be sent by Maelstrom Games Ltd. Other customer orders for certain ranges may be fulfilled in the future and any customers whose orders can be fulfilled will be contacted by Maelstrom Games in due course. "

But I doubt that will be for the Citadel range :(

**Dysartes**

The Stranger wrote:
Poor managing decisions and business ethics lead to a substantial amount of dept to suppliers. The giant has clay feet but he is still a giant and able to force his conditions on smaller fish like Simple. They say to them we will pay you soon trust us. The same time they probably owe money to other associates. Then they change it to an informal paying arrangement. Simple worries they won't get their money.

I was talking about the Maelstrom situation with the owner of my most local LGS, and it turned out that he'd used to deal with SMG. He'd arranged for SMG to take payment for an order from the company credit card once an order was shipped. Unfortunately, despite multiple reminders, SMG failed to charge him for any orders for an entire year...

After a year, SMG came and pointed out that he hadn't been paid for any orders

My friend, who had been putting funds to one side once he noticed the lac of charges, agreed to pay each invoice by cheque, on the condition that SMG sent him a receipt - cheques for the first three invoices went in, but no receipts were forthcoming.

Once the debt was cleared, my LGS stopped dealing with SMG, due to the poor organisation.

After that conversation, MG's point about giving SMG CC details to charge to at £X/day to clear the debt when SMG feels like charging seems to be more believable than it was originally.

**CainTheHunter**

Btw, my account on the EOTS, which showed an outstanding processing order from the Maelstrom is gone from the site too - now when I try to log in, I get the response "e-mail not registered". Either EOTS shipped the item and decided not to bother with me anymore, or the whole thing was just a distraction.

**Sining**

Dysartes wrote:
The Stranger wrote:
Poor managing decisions and business ethics lead to a substantial amount of dept to suppliers. The giant has clay feet but he is still a giant and able to force his conditions on smaller fish like Simple. They say to them we will pay you soon trust us. The same time they probably owe money to other associates. Then they change it to an informal paying arrangement. Simple worries they won't get their money.

I was talking about the Maelstrom situation with the owner of my most local LGS, and it turned out that he'd used to deal with SMG. He'd arranged for SMG to take payment for an order from the company credit card once an order was shipped. Unfortunately, despite multiple reminders, SMG failed to charge him for any orders for an entire year...

After a year, SMG came and pointed out that he hadn't been paid for any orders

My friend, who had been putting funds to one side once he noticed the lac of charges, agreed to pay each invoice by cheque, on the condition that SMG sent him a receipt - cheques for the first three invoices went in, but no receipts were forthcoming.

Once the debt was cleared, my LGS stopped dealing with SMG, due to the poor organisation.

After that conversation, MG's point about giving SMG CC details to charge to at £X/day to clear the debt when SMG feels like charging seems to be more believable than it was originally.

Is this a common practice in the UK? Using the company CC to pay off suppliers? It just seems very strange

**SoulDrinker**

It can by quite common to pay by card, we do it all the time in our business - however Simple Miniatures statement says constantly "declined" so it's a matter of funds not being available - which is a big telling point when someone isn't paying.
The situation above sound like crossed wires - rather than will MG the un-wllingness / inability to pay.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Simple Miniatures will be at Reading's Warfare show with infinity and Malifaux so I might have a nosey around and and a few cheeky questions....... As well as picking up a deal or two on Infinity

(well ...while I'm there! it'd be rude not too)

**notprop**

Yeah we have purchase card as well and some quite impressive sums have been paid on them.

This is usually for material procurement but I know of one instance where a subcontractor was paid nearly £1m as the was a considerable advantage to doing so (a cash back type arrangement) and other instances of a contractor being paid smaller amounts every month for a year+.

It's not ideal and usually used as a means to pay quickly which might not otherwise be possible in a monolithic multinational such as the one I have sold my soul to.

I cant explain why simple would be so remiss in such basic steps to recover money though. I assume it was a smaller debt and was not recorded properly.

**SoulDrinker**

There is always more than one side to a story and I'm not sure that the LGS would be mentioning any issues that they caused at their end to their customers. Probably more to it than that........ Receipts for cheque's too - that's a new one? Why would you want a receipt for a cheque, if it's come out of your account it's been banked. Sounds a bit odd. Anyway if they knew the debt was there why didn't they just send a cheque for the shipments at the time instead of taking the biscuit and not paying for a year - these things work both ways.

Looks like Simple does need to be harsher to debtors though. can't be easy though as shops have good months and bad so a bit of extended credit would be appreciated by most. I know in my industry smaller customers always want to stretch the credit terms and if you push too hard you lose their business. It's a fine line to walk but most of it is done on trust and gentlemen's agreements just like in the Miniature's business it would seem.

**Skinnereal**

Receipts for a cheque prove that it was handed over, whether it gets paid in or not.
If it doesn't get paid in, there's proof that the payer did their bit.

**WarMill**

To be fair when you're a small business and you're trying to do everything yourself, it's easy for things to get forgotten about or pushed forward to tomorrow, then the day after...

I've been meaning to send an invoice to someone for ages, and you'd think chasing up money would be top priority, but when you're in regular contact with the person there isn't the same sense of urgency. Could just be me though...

**pixelpusher**

Same here. Invoicing is probably the last thing I do, if I have the time.

**Kroothawk**

Is it legal for Maelstrom to transfer its customer data to EOTS, as it is a major asset and customers have not been asked for consent? Is EOTS then liable for all debts by Maelstrom, as they operate as a successor company?

**CainTheHunter**

Since most transferred accounts have been erased already, go and try to prove your point now. And EOTS is not a successor company - the whole point of EOTS is that it is a different company with no liabilities in respect of MG claims. If they were MG successors we would not be discussing MG here in this thread.

**Bolognesus**

Well, they've already come back on that; they're now aking customers for permission to hand over customer data for fulfillment of certain parts of orders (e.g. Mierce, battlefront I believe, some other odds&ends) and honestly - it's privacy legislation they could get on trouble with - the account data itself has very little value in an industry such as wargaming mini webstores where, let's face it, customer loyalty isn't all that big anyway.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Kroothawk wrote:
Is it legal for Maelstrom to transfer its customer data to EOTS, as it is a major asset and customers have not been asked for consent? Is EOTS then liable for all debts by Maelstrom, as they operate as a successor company?

IF the cusomer consents to the data transfer there is no issue, Mierce make it clear that they are only offering to cover the unfulfilled orders because of their 'generocity' not from any legal obligation.

The data is not a 'bankable' asset in itself because it can only be used for the purpose for which customers gave it ie having an account with maelstrom. It could not be used as a database of mini buyers for eanybody to send out mailshots to (other than maelstrom emails if the customer had not opted out of them) so has no commercial value (you could not even legally mine it to gather info on what minis sell best etc)

(however if the liquidator/reciver finds that mierce or eots have taken over any of maelstroms physical/ip asset without paying a 'fair market rate' for them they could have to hand it back

**Skinnereal**

A list of validated email addresses, with names and other personal details, is worth a whole load to scammers.
It's why I spend all of £5 a year to get as many email addresses as I need. If anyone uses the info I gave to Maelstrom, I'll know.

It's strange that my logon didn't appear on the EotS site, while others got theirs. I had dropped off the mailing list a couple of weeks ago, though.

**Winact**

Just had an e-mail asking for permission for Maelstrom to pass my details to Maunsfield Games for them to fulfil the outstanding BF items from my order (exactly one can of spray paint to be precise)

Will be interesting to see how long it takes now, although at least it's something if you're waiting on BF items.

**Altruizine**

Has anybody outside of the UK gotten one of these account/order transfer emails?

One of the items I ordered and never received was a Mierce Minis product, so if there's a way for me to get it I'd be happy. But no email from anybody yet.

**grefven**

Got the mail earlier, from Sweden.

**Bossk_Hogg**

Bolognesus wrote:
OTOH it's probably a good faith mistake by folks without sufficient knowledge of relevant laws/regulations to at least 'fix' part of the problem and get people what they paid for.

if they'd been a Dutch store and they'd done precisely that, without asking permission, it'd been considered perfectly okay; they just used an intermediary (EOTS) to supply products to customers in some way. Down here, it'd been okay.
I can see why they might have sort of assumed it would be so in the UK as well. Now of course we all know what happens when you assume, but this is really, really the least of any of their flaws.
Good heavens, they're hardly selling your account data to spammers to fund mr Lane's cruise to the Bahama's

This. And thanks for the heads up... I'd missed the initial email, so was glad to have seen it here to check my junk mail box.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Altruizine wrote:
Has anybody outside of the UK gotten one of these account/order transfer emails?

One of the items I ordered and never received was a Mierce Minis product, so if there's a way for me to get it I'd be happy. But no email from anybody yet.

I got mine on the 14th. I would email them if you havent received it in the next day or so, with the Maelstrom order number and ask to be transferred.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bolognesus wrote:
skarsol wrote:
Corso Vitt wrote:
Wow, just when I think this FUBAR couldn't get any more FUBAR'd. Saw something on BF official forum advising that BF were going to look into making sure all outstanding customers got any FOW models or money returned. EOTS now has a plethora of FOW stock and what happens go to log into my MG account somehow transferred to EOTS and guess what I can no longer log in. So MG/EOTS now has stock but my transferred account has magically vanished.

I'm assuming and I reiterate I'm only assuming but it seems like MG/EOTS has went cap in hand to BF - please give us some stock so we can help customers - then they've taken that stock and flushed all remaining accounts. Its an assumption but at this moment in time it wouldn't surprise me...

... you guys realize this is why Mierce and BF never dropped below 50% during the firesale right? This was planned all along. I suspect an email similar to the Mierce one today will go out to all the people with outstanding BF orders shortly.

I can edit my personal details out of two invoices and post them for you if you like - both of them with a 70% discount on mierce models.
BF, I wouldn't know. have heard terrible, terrible things about the ruleset so wasn't really inclined to check them out even at that price

Darklands never dropped below 50%. Banebeasts/Legions did, which may have just been a slip up. I ended up getting Ophidius at 70% off mixed in with a bunch of Darklands at 50% off.

**CainTheHunter**

Got that e-mail about transfer to Maunsfield Games too regarding two orders - the ranges are Battlefront and Forged in Battle.

**chrisjuuuh**

wonder if their just gonna pretend they never stocked GW...at this point id appreciate store credit for EOTS

**Makaleth**

Altruizine wrote:
Has anybody outside of the UK gotten one of these account/order transfer emails?

One of the items I ordered and never received was a Mierce Minis product, so if there's a way for me to get it I'd be happy. But no email from anybody yet.

I also have gotten one yesterday, from Australia