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It mentions in the GK codec how dragio can tell if an enemy projectile is going to hurt him. What comes to mind is dragio standing in the open looking at a artillery shel heading towards him and him thinking about if he should move or not.
Nurgle wrote: It mentions in the GK codec how dragio can tell if an enemy projectile is going to hurt him. What comes to mind is dragio standing in the open looking at a artillery shel heading towards him and him thinking about if he should move or not.
1d4chan Wiki wrote:While there is such a thing as a front-line general, the fact is that all of his heroes are like that, and ones that aren't seem both vague and unfocused. Furthermore, Matt does a lot of telling rather than showing. He tells us that Marneus Calgar is a patient tactical genius who considers the danger of an incoming projectile before taking cover. The image painted in the average person's mind in that case is one of Calgar analyzing a falling bomb until it strikes him in the head and explodes, at which point he decides, “Yes, that one was dangerous, I probably should have taken cover from that one".
While I'm not against using information from outside sources, you might at least try to give credit for other people's thoughts. Or, if you can't do that, at least get the name of the character involved right.
"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
Nurgle wrote: It mentions in the GK codec how dragio can tell if an enemy projectile is going to hurt him. What comes to mind is dragio standing in the open looking at a artillery shel heading towards him and him thinking about if he should move or not.
1d4chan Wiki wrote:While there is such a thing as a front-line general, the fact is that all of his heroes are like that, and ones that aren't seem both vague and unfocused. Furthermore, Matt does a lot of telling rather than showing. He tells us that Marneus Calgar is a patient tactical genius who considers the danger of an incoming projectile before taking cover. The image painted in the average person's mind in that case is one of Calgar analyzing a falling bomb until it strikes him in the head and explodes, at which point he decides, “Yes, that one was dangerous, I probably should have taken cover from that one".
[url=http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Matt_Ward#Why_the_Hate.3F]Source[/u
While I'm not against using information from outside sources, you might at least try to give credit for other people's thoughts. Or, if you can't do that, at least get the name of the character involved right.
I know it's from 1d4chan I happen to help out the site quite often. If if it was a name I miss spelled most likely autocorrect.
If you want me to put sources down then the page would be filled with everybody handing out links like cotton candy.
Been on /tg/ since 08 I have seen neckbeards rage and it isn't pretty.
Nurgle wrote: It mentions in the GK codec how dragio can tell if an enemy projectile is going to hurt him. What comes to mind is dragio standing in the open looking at a artillery shel heading towards him and him thinking about if he should move or not.
I have no background knowledge of Draigo's fluff, but reading this the only thing I can have in my mind is this
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/23 19:07:57
Regardless of any "solid"/"insubstantial" statements made/implied about Draigo in any fluff/rules...
The main proponent of Draigo being a "decent" character, and fitting in with the fluff general fluff of 40k, calls himself Kaldor on Dakka...
Ergo, there is no way that anyone, even Ward, could cause him to think that Draigo was anything but perfection...
That would be like trying to tell me that Ghaz is terrible.
" It says in the rules that if there are no models from one side left on the table, then that side has lost. What it DOESN'T say is that I can't pick my opponent's models up and throw them on the floor, so if I'm losing the game, all I have to do is pick my opponents models up and throw them on the floor, and then I WIN! YAY! Woohoo. Loophole: FOUND! "
by Sgt Sixkilla
13k WAAAGH!!! Skipphag
3k (Angels of Absolution); DV (Dark Angels); 3k (Fire Serpents - Salamander successor) & 2k Salamanders
75 (Death Korps)
3k (Kabal of the Twisted Razor), 4k Tau
Skipphag da Devoura wrote: Regardless of any "solid"/"insubstantial" statements made/implied about Draigo in any fluff/rules...
The main proponent of Draigo being a "decent" character, and fitting in with the fluff general fluff of 40k, calls himself Kaldor on Dakka...
Ergo, there is no way that anyone, even Ward, could cause him to think that Draigo was anything but perfection...
That would be like trying to tell me that Ghaz is terrible.
I think Draigo is a quite decent character. Your move.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Skipphag da Devoura wrote: Regardless of any "solid"/"insubstantial" statements made/implied about Draigo in any fluff/rules...
The main proponent of Draigo being a "decent" character, and fitting in with the fluff general fluff of 40k, calls himself Kaldor on Dakka...
Ergo, there is no way that anyone, even Ward, could cause him to think that Draigo was anything but perfection...
That would be like trying to tell me that Ghaz is terrible.
I think Draigo is a quite decent character. Your move.
Why? What aspects of his character do you find interesting and/or enjoyable?
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
I love how this thread went from discussing the writing capabilities of Ward as a whole to 24/7 Draigo.
Personally, since really the only "ward dex" I'm familiar with IS the GK dex, the thing that bothers me most is that Draigo is now front and center. I miss Stern. I found him to be a really interesting character and what made me really wanna play the then Daemonhunters. Then Ward came, kicked him in the balls and left him in the street while Draigo took over and redecorated.
Also, if Draigo is stuck in the warp only briefly escaping to fight a quick occasional battle... why is he still Supreme Grand Master, loved and trusted by the rest of the GK? Who's running the Knights in his absence? I find it difficult to believe that a force as paranoid as they are about daemons and chaos influence as they are would still follow Draigo after not having seen him in forever, suddenly appearing from the warp when it's convenient. I mean they slaughtered dozens of innocent Sisters to "protect" themselves from daemonic corruption (even though they're incorruptible already). But their leader lives in the warp and they follow his beck and call? Not that I put too much investment into Draigo as a character, this just yet another unbelievable thing on top of the pile of other unbelievable things that Draigo is known for, for me anyway.
I think I ought to read the other stuff Ward has done before passing judgement on him, just to be fair. For now all I can comment on are the GK.
Skipphag da Devoura wrote: Regardless of any "solid"/"insubstantial" statements made/implied about Draigo in any fluff/rules...
The main proponent of Draigo being a "decent" character, and fitting in with the fluff general fluff of 40k, calls himself Kaldor on Dakka...
Ergo, there is no way that anyone, even Ward, could cause him to think that Draigo was anything but perfection...
That would be like trying to tell me that Ghaz is terrible.
I think Draigo is a quite decent character. Your move.
Why? What aspects of his character do you find interesting and/or enjoyable?
Regardless of what level of writing Ward has, Draigo is ultimately a sisyphean character: nothing he does matters. Furthermore, he's basically the embodyment of the Grey Knights Chapter: they fight Daemons, but in the end those very same daemons come back. I find it fitting that the life of the guy leading the Grey Knights is basically a micro-version of the entire Chapter's struggle.
That said, he's not a stellar character, but he's not, IMO, as bad as people make him out to be. Daemon primarchs aren't sacrosanct, they're not omnipotent.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
I"m not a Matt Ward fan. From what I understand of his writing style and the way he writes codexes/codices whatever, he seems to lack certain fundamentals.
That being said, Draigo as a character, is kinda weak. The biggest thing that makes a character is his flaws rather than his strengths. So Kaldor, since there seems to be a misunderstanding on the Deamon Primarch, give the entire forum a breif history lesson and please site references. Most specifically if the Primarch died before said carving on the heart or was he still alive.
Just checked Codex: Dark Angels and noticed only one of the three Grand Masters shows a flaw but thats because one half of the page in wargear and statlines. Belial is almost killed by a warboss but manages to win in the end. Sammael and Azrael are not listed with flaws. However, given an addition half page a peice, I am sure there would have been more.
Joining the Band wagon is popular but you have to understand, sometimes the band wagon is correct.
Edit: Draigo isn't a character who eternally pushing a rock up a hill but never seeming to get it there, he isn't eternally have his guts pecked out by harpies. The way the character seems to be described as far as I have read, is he does what he wants and no chaos god is strong enough to stop him. Secondly, even if Nurgels garden grows back in a second, deamons have to use energy to rebuild them, meaning given enough time, Draigo would weaken Nurgel so bad, he could kill him in single combat. His achievements however small are still acheivements.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/29 22:13:26
The biggest problem with Draigo is the same as Mephiston. The guy should not exist as written in the first place.
One man, no matter how powerful, should not be able to effect the home realm of a Chaos God. Regardless of how meaningless it turns out to be. The destruction of a Gods home realm is for the battles of legends and whole armies. Of a group of men working in concert to overthrow an evil god. That makes a good story, with struggle, sacrifice, and ultimately triumph. Not just one man who can make a mockery of their power.
See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Draigo is ultimately a sisyphean character: nothing he does matters.
This has been (IMO successfully) disputed a number of times already.
Which is where we disagree. Sure, he wins every fight he's in. It really doesn't matter in the end though, because none of it is permanent. Hand-waving that away by just pointing out that he wins every fight, which is what I'm seeing in this thread, doesn't change the fact that nothing of it really matters. At best he is an annoyance to Chaos.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Omegus wrote: A random Space Marine, however talented, should not be an annoyance to Chaos, doing whatever he wants in the Warp itself.
The Supreme Grandmaster of the the Grey Knights is no more a random space marine than Ghazkull is just a random ork.
The warp is anathema to life. It does not obey the laws of the universe. It has no physics, no air, no gravity, and if you pull the trigger on a gun, you're just as likely to have potted petunias come out of the barrel as bullets. There is no way Draigo, or any other human, could exist there unless the lords of the warp, the Chaos Gods, molded it into a form that he could exist in. He's not there because he wants to be, he's there because the Chaos gods want him there.
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?"
Omegus wrote: A random Space Marine, however talented, should not be an annoyance to Chaos, doing whatever he wants in the Warp itself.
The Supreme Grandmaster of the the Grey Knights is no more a random space marine than Ghazkull is just a random ork.
Ghazghkull doesn't walk into the Warp and punch Khorne in the face, though.
Kaldor wrote: The warp is anathema to life. It does not obey the laws of the universe. It has no physics, no air, no gravity, and if you pull the trigger on a gun, you're just as likely to have potted petunias come out of the barrel as bullets. There is no way Draigo, or any other human, could exist there unless the lords of the warp, the Chaos Gods, molded it into a form that he could exist in. He's not there because he wants to be, he's there because the Chaos gods want him there.
Which is all well and good, except that this aspect is entirely ignored when he's doing things like killing Slaanesh's handmaidens or burning down Nurgle's garden. Draigo hasn't done anything that explains why the Chaos Gods would want him to do this stuff. It's lip service, nothing more.
"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
The thing I don't get about Draigo is that he was apparently capable of carving his predecessors name into a Daemon Prince Primarch who is described as slaughtering said predecessor.
Either his predecessor was totally crap or Draigo was apparently several times (at least) stronger than the Grand Master he was serving under and nobody noticed it until the previous guy was butchered.
Either way it's pretty silly.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
This thread has changed my views on a few things. First of all, that a thread with the subject line of 'Matt Ward' is able to go 14 pages without getting locked for turning into a flame war is something I would never have thought possible. (ba-dum *tiss*)
Overall I'm okay with Draigo now despite think him to be pure silliness originally. He is a bit of a Sisyphean character, albeit one that differs in that he completes his tasks only to have them undone rather than to never be able to have them completed before having them done. That said I don't find the bit about carving names into hearts to be all that creative, Draigo still being the chapter master makes f-all sense, and I think I'd rather see Paladins as troops be enabled by a character that's a normal part of the GK structure (perhaps my mythological non-Warp bound chapter master) than the way it is now where whenever a lot of Paladins are mobilized Draigo always happens to show up. That said I'm still picturing him running around the Warp looking for warp dust, and trying to protect his holy passage.
Actually, maybe that's how Draigo still functions as the Chapter Master. Whenever the GKs need him, they just have four Paladins stand around outside of unit coherency and he just appears.
As far as the Bloodtide goes it definitely is plenty grimdark, but it's one (small) step away from saying that Grey Knights would merrily summon daemons as allies if it would help them achieve their goals. Personally I'd be okay with that, but I don't think it really fits in with the fluff.
Regarding spiritual lieges, Ward can kiss *my* holy passage.
I don't know. I think it's more that it's fun to hop onto the Ward Sucks Internet me-me than it is that he's genuinely that much worse than the rest of what gets put out. If I had the chance to talk to him for an hour I'd be more interested in asking him about how the rules are made than I'd want to spend it giving him crap about his writing.
Oddly enough in todays gamer culture its quite common to have characters who are bad ass simply "because" I see nothing wrong with a character like Draigo being the GK equivalent to Optimus prime.
Hes just that good. Looking for realistic characters in a game and setting like 40k?
Please, the novels are grade school reading fare. Nothing wrong with enjoying them but tearing down fictional characters because they are perceived to be less well written or thought out then others in the 40k universe is a joke in and of itself.
Nothing in the entire black library nor the game material compares to the likes of Asimov or Clarke. Its a game, first and foremost. You simply cannot hold up examples of writing in this universe and compare them to that written by those with talent. That's just silly.
Optimus Prime is badass because he can turn into a Truck. Plus Optimus has weaknesses. His mercy and care for human life has resulted in Megatron escaping several times. What are Draigo's weaknesses?
Plus look at it this way. Optimus is killed by Megatron in the original Transformers movie, which almost results in Unicron being able to destroy Cybertron as there was no Autobot leader to use the Matrix of Leadership.
Has Draigo ever died with his death almost resulting in the destruction of the Imperium?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/30 17:22:23
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Draigo is not Sisyphean, after all, now and again, he gets puked out of the warp and proceeds to kick Chaos ass, potentially tipping the scale of the battle he participates in in Imperium's favor. That's pretty big if you ask me. That the Chaos gods allow this thorn in their side remain alive in the warp and let him out from time to time to thwart their own plans is nonsensical, to put it mildly. And if they're not powerful enough to put him down in the place over which they reign supreme can only mean Draigo's will dwarfs that of the Emperor himself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/30 17:59:17
No he has plot immunity, at the end of every episode nothing changes. Even in the movie after he died they just brought him back again anyway. His sacrifice is ultimately meaningless.
As much a die hard transformer fan as I am, it was terribly written but still had characters though two dimensional I enjoyed immensely. The point isnt realism or depth.
No he has plot immunity, at the end of every episode nothing changes. Even in the movie after he died they just brought him back again anyway. His sacrifice is ultimately meaningless.
As much a die hard transformer fan as I am, it was terribly written but still had characters though two dimensional I enjoyed immensely. The point isnt realism or depth.
No he has plot immunity, at the end of every episode nothing changes. Even in the movie after he died they just brought him back again anyway. His sacrifice is ultimately meaningless.
As much a die hard transformer fan as I am, it was terribly written but still had characters though two dimensional I enjoyed immensely. The point isnt realism or depth.
The point is fun.
Reread my post. A weakness does not have to be a physical one. Optimus has failed to kill Megatron on several occasions due to his merciful nature and value of all life.
These were exploited by Megatron, allowing him to escape. Megatron used parts of Optimus' character as weaknesses.
Now, what are Draigo's weaknesses?
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
No he has plot immunity, at the end of every episode nothing changes. Even in the movie after he died they just brought him back again anyway. His sacrifice is ultimately meaningless.
As much a die hard transformer fan as I am, it was terribly written but still had characters though two dimensional I enjoyed immensely. The point isnt realism or depth.
The point is fun.
Reread my post. A weakness does not have to be a physical one. Optimus has failed to kill Megatron on several occasions due to his merciful nature and value of all life.
These were exploited by Megatron, allowing him to escape. Megatron used parts of Optimus' character as weaknesses.
Now, what are Draigo's weaknesses?
What is Vects (Perfect planning and killing people with black holes or convoluted deaths)? What is Wazdakka's? (Who by the way, rammed through a titans void shields, exploded on fire, killed the crew, and came out with flaming skulls), Kharn (Who destroyed two Legions Simultaneously in One Battle), Creed (Has he ever lost a battle?), C'tans? (Before 5th they were all but unstoppable and planning everything).
With the exception of the rest, there's still plenty more characters that have been presented with no flaws whatsoever. This was not unique to draigo or matt ward beforehand. Heck 4th edition space marines was actually quite boastful about Ultramarines moreso than 5th, and had far more Ultramarines compared to extra chapters (Ultramarine veteran's and Ultramarine honor guard used to be SC's)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/30 18:45:40
Kharns weakness is that he is insane and as likely to kill his own men as he is to kill the enemy.
For Vect read the entire last paragraph of his fluff entry in the Dark Eldar Codex. His position of power is weakening and he is resorting to more blunt means of maintaining control. His plots and plans are not infallible, largely because everyone considers him a threat and so he lost the advantage of being underestimated. He lost one of his advantages.
Wazdakka is an Ork. None of their stuff is serious.
Creed, I cannot answer as I haven't got the IG book.
C'tans are now on a leash by the Newcrons.
None of those characters are meant to be tragic, which is what many of the people defending Draigo claim him to be. It is not tragic that an unstoppable killing machine is trapped in a place with infinite creatures for him to kill.
It might be tragic if he were to have to fight until he died then the Chaos Gods brought him back and repeated the process for eternity. That is a truly futile situation as not even death would release him from his prison.
As it is he is a boring character with no negative attributes in a situation which allows his positive attributes to shine. If Ward wanted him to be tragic then he should have put him in a situation where his positive attributes become negative.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/30 19:17:30
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Kharns weakness is that he is insane and as likely to kill his own men as he is to kill the enemy.
Which is a good thing, blood for the blood god remember? This is only a flaw to everyone else, to the Chosen of Khorn, this is the best kind of person to be. If he dies he's revived by khorn to kill more, so he cannot truly die, and everytime he goes into battle he slaughters everyone.
For Vect read the entire last paragraph of his fluff entry in the Dark Eldar Codex. His position of power is weakening and he is resorting to more blunt means of maintaining control.
And? This is how he's been for the longest time, he hasn't lost anything, and he's still going to survive and be the leader of all DE everywhere. Not to mention the fact that his plans still always succeed when it comes to maintaining order amongst the Kabals, cults, and covens.
Wazdakka is an Ork. None of their stuff is serious.
I disagree, some of their best parts come from Armageddon, as well as the more serious warbosses. Though I still keep in mind the comic relief.
C'tans are now on a leash by the Newcrons.
Which is why I specifically was pointing out Oldcrons, who were almost mary sue's in their own right.
Weaknesses?
Lucius the eternal?
The whole ability to transform the person who killed you into you seems pretty top notch.
The fact its near on impossible to finally kill him is pretty amusing.
Best story for a character though is tycho.
If anyone has not read it, flick through the BA book or find it on wiki.
Was actually written to a pretty decent level.
Jackal wrote: Weaknesses? Lucius the eternal? The whole ability to transform the person who killed you into you seems pretty top notch. The fact its near on impossible to finally kill him is pretty amusing.
'Course that only happens if you take pride in having killed him. Draigo (being more perfect than Mary Poppins) wouldn't really care.
After all, when you've destroyed the walls of a Lord of Change, burned down Nurgle's garden, killed Slaanesh's chosen Daemonettes and killed countless Bloodthirsters, why would killing a single dude in Power Armour make you feel proud?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/30 19:50:35
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
13k WAAAGH!!! Skipphag
3k (Angels of Absolution); 
3k (Fire Serpents - Salamander successor) & 2k Salamanders
75 (Death Korps)
3k (Kabal of the Twisted Razor), 4k Tau 
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
