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 Alkasyn wrote:
An off-topic question - anyone knows what happened to that Tentacle Bento game? SodaPop is surprisingly tight-lipped about that.

Have they? It was released, they had it at PAX, and were advertising it at Gencon..

I think it is on their site as well.

Alkasyn wrote:An off-topic question - anyone knows what happened to that Tentacle Bento game? SodaPop is surprisingly tight-lipped about that.

Soda Pop got it funded via their own website, but probably didn't make from as much from pledges as they would have had it remained on Kickstarter: http://girls.sodapopminiatures.com/content/fund-tentacle-bento

Makaleth wrote:No... people were expecting SOMETHING for the Boost Ex2.

I'm not sure why people were expecting so much here. The boost is in line with the others and it's a legitimately useful addition. Would completely new characters be preferable? Sure...but there's a catch. Zombicide and Sedition Wars were single-box board games with miniatures; the pre-order boxes could be loaded with free goodies without harming future efforts to push the games to stores. Relic Knights is a miniature game proper; Soda Pop can't make their pre-order such good value that stores won't carry their line because those who bought in early don't want extra units and those who didn't take umbrage at the inflated price of their buy-in. So Soda Pop have to walk a balancing act that sees the additional units in the starters being less than ideal but not poor, and sweetening the pot for the optional extras. I don't think they're doing too badly in this respect (and absolutely atrociously in others, such as showing updated and unpainted sculpts) but coming in as late as I have my perspective is necessarily going to be different from those of you who have been following this from the start. I can understand why some of you would be feeling disappointed, frustrated...even angry. To hazard a guess, Soda Pop were dragging out their stretch goals so they'd unlock the rest of the SDE chibi's, another optional extra and boost for each faction (which is where you would see Sophia and the Black Dragons, for exampe), and maybe free Darkspace alternates for the starters (I'm not sure what else they could add without running into the problem mentioned above, other than perhaps terrain) only shortly before their projected final total and it's biting them in the ass.

 Grot 6 wrote:
Number 2. These minis are being touted out there, and then they are being withdrawn from the project, reintroduced as something else, and then after a few more days, there seem to be more of the same, with a new tag on them. That doesn't seem to be as what happened with SW, or even Zombicide when they came out. Its as if the lessons learned are being ignored.

Could anyone elaborate on this? Was it serious dickery or just poor communication?

 Construct wrote:

Makaleth wrote:No... people were expecting SOMETHING for the Boost Ex2.

I'm not sure why people were expecting so much here. The boost is in line with the others and it's a legitimately useful addition. Would completely new characters be preferable? Sure...but there's a catch. Zombicide and Sedition Wars were single-box board games with miniatures; the pre-order boxes could be loaded with free goodies without harming future efforts to push the games to stores. Relic Knights is a miniature game proper; Soda Pop can't make their pre-order such good value that stores won't carry their line because those who bought in early don't want extra units and those who didn't take umbrage at the inflated price of their buy-in.
...

The inflated prices and lack of extra models reasoning is sound. I agree with that. But it reinforces to me that the Goal in itself wasn't great and people were expecting more... hence potentially leaving the kickstarter.

I am the opposite. I have upped my pledge recently. But other than the Black diamond and Shattered Sword... the last goals didn't really do much for me. Particularly for Cerci... why would you want another PACE robot...

gotta admit after being reluctant to pledge then finally deciding to give it a go I am very tempted now to pull out. A stretch goal should reward the investor not attempt to fleece him of more money.

Both.

In the beginning of the KS project, the base teams had different models in them that were removed and later came back as KS streach goals. Then they decided that that was an ok move, and didn't say anything else about it, other then add in more basic troop types as other stretch goals. As well as change the goalpost, they give the impression that the KS is not in fact to fund the game to plastic, but to in fact make more money just on account of adding in the additional " Option to buy" supposed goals.

No one is coming right out and saying it, but I will go on and throw it out there that just giving an option to buy something as a goal is part in parcel of the dickery here. The other issues were the changing goalposts, the lack of the communication, and the inclusion of things that didn't have anything to do with the project to begin with.

As was stated in the beginning of the campaign, the goal started out to- "Fund the game in plastic." Then it became about- "Oh, look at the shiny". Then it became- "Lets continue to push streach goals based on the game. Then it became- "Hey, this streach goal thing is getting harder to project, lets push a few more ( Of the same) minis, and push the direction to include the additional materials needed to play the game. ( Cards, tokens... bases, extra troops). Then it became " Hey, lets add in the SDE stuff, based on Relic Knights, and we will push SDE along with it."

I don't even need to go into the obvious, inclusion of the secondary game in this kickstarter, to increase the "interest" in Relic Knight based on the already established success of SDE.

My other opinion is that they were haphazard in the comunication between the streach goals and some of the goals give the impression that they are just being thrown out there as eye candy with no other goal then to get a few more 10- 20 dollar pledges. Two weeks into the goal, and the silence was the loudest. Three weeks into the goals and we start seeing more figures. four or so more weeks and we see the inclusion of SDE. All through it, the comments page was like reading about a fight, between a silent Sodapop, rabid fans, and other people in the mix that were genuinly confused and asked questions, and were pounced on, and then after the fact silent reaction was given to the ongoing comments.

Then some of the comments from those supposed "spokesmen/ commenters" themselves didn't do the game any favors.

The Super Dungeon Explore is an already established game, It is a very good one, as well- BUT did not have anything to do with this, until they decided to put it out there that it was an established part of the Relic Knight Mythos...

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
An off-topic question - anyone knows what happened to that Tentacle Bento game? SodaPop is surprisingly tight-lipped about that.

Have they? It was released, they had it at PAX, and were advertising it at Gencon..

As you may imagine, both PAX and Gencon are quite far away for me.

By tight-lipped i meant no information on the site and the official pledge subsite given a couple post above in this thread had no updates.

I heard September is the release month for the game, though.

Grot, c'mon. It's two models - optional models that you don't have to purchase. What's the big deal?

On Tentacle Bento - they are still saying it is a September release on their website.

On Relic Knights - more Relic Knights stretch goals please!

Though I'd be willing to bet the next RK specific stretch goal will be of the "pay (x) to get (y)" variety, and then maybe after that there will be some more "free" goals...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Grot, c'mon. It's two models - optional models that you don't have to purchase. What's the big deal?

Here is the deal, you are expecting to fund with your pledges the relic knights game, a 30k stretch that funds the creation of a single miniature, unrelated to the game you are supposed to help fund and on top of that be expected to pay to get, does not sit well.

I personally see it as a wasted slot to things I would be more interested see, like for example black dragons, or extra variant for the minions or terrain or alternative questing knights, or questing knights versions of the existing relic knights, in any case relic knights related.

And from my point of view people left yesterday, I saw free slots to early birds (I actually grabbed one) and the highest pledges like tel my story are by definitions to die hard fans, hard to see people that dedicated simply walking away if they were not severely dissatisfied.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Here is the deal, you are expecting to fund with your pledges the relic knights game, a 30k stretch that funds the creation of a single miniature, unrelated to the game you are supposed to help fund and on top of that be expected to pay to get, does not sit well.

Nope. If the goal is 30K to fund a single mini, and then after that goal is met they add a new goal to fund something related (or only slightly related) then it changes nothing. The original goal you funded is funded and you get what you wanted from that funding. You're not "expected" to do anything more.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nope. If the goal is 30K to fund a single mini, and then after that goal is met they add a new goal to fund something related (or only slightly related) then it changes nothing. The original goal you funded is funded and you get what you wanted from that funding. You're not "expected" to do anything more.

And without surprise that is what is happening, the project is grinding to next stretch goals, the discussion is negative and people have left, downgraded or, consider to downgrade.

Personally I feel this kickstarter has big problems on planning, communication, generating excitement and giving you reasons to spend more, the presentation is simply bad.

People see each streachgoal as means to secure more money for models production, its easy to tie in SDE models and the money related to their streachgoal as funding for them, then you are expected to buy them, this could be presented far far better like SW did, hey mini x$ streachgoal related to the miniature, I do not think there would be much dissatisfaction if for example they did a tie in with SDE if they absolutely had to shove it in the RK kickstarter, for example questing knight form of X relic knight for x$ streachgoal tie in SD SDE version for free.

Well done on grabbing the early bird spot.

It may well have come vacant from somebody moving up (I lost mine that way), as the higher levels save you more than the early bird

The chibi versions of the RK were always on the Soda Pop packaging, and I belive them when they say they get a lot of requests for figures in that stye (even though they arn't for me)

In a poll on their facebook site asking what fans of the company wanted more of SDE outscored RK about 6 to 1 so if some of the SDE fans are pulled in it will be a big win for the project

They have, though, not kept on top of the comments/
questions in the way we hoped for. Conventions may be great for word of mouth but they suck in terms of monopolising a companies time (Gencon, PAX et al)

(I guess first Mike McVey on Sedition Wars, and the Reaper crew on Bones has spoiled us)

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
And without surprise that is what is happening, the project is grinding to next stretch goals, the discussion is negative and people have left, downgraded or, consider to downgrade.

...

People see each streachgoal as means to secure more money for models production, its easy to tie in SDE models and the money related to their streachgoal as funding for them, then you are expected to buy them, this could be presented far far better like SW did, hey mini x$ streachgoal related to the miniature, I do not think there would be much dissatisfaction if for example they did a tie in with SDE if they absolutely had to shove it in the RK kickstarter, for example questing knight form of X relic knight for x$ streachgoal tie in SD SDE version for free.

You're not expected to buy anything. The downgrading doesn't make any sense. It's not like you're getting less for your already pledged money. Why does what is added later impact at all on what you pledged for in the first place? It's just a bonus at that point for helping them get the funding in the first place.

I come back to my McDonald's example:

"Welcome to McDonald's sir. What would you like to order?"
"I think I'll have a large Big Mac meal."
"No problem. We've sold 200 of those today, so anyone who wants can Super-Size that meal for free."
"But I don't want to super-size it... in fact... now I don't want the Big Mac at all! I hate McDonald's! DIE IN A FIRE!"
*runs from store screaming about a lack of communication*

See how that doesn't make any fething sense whatsoever (and not just because of the ultra-polite McDonald's employee! )? The goal was X, and requires Y. You pledged Z because you really want X, and enough people also pledged Z, reaching Y, allowing for X to be made. Just because they go and add A, B and C on doesn't make what you did in the first place any different. You're either getting it for free as part of your initial pledge (so who cares?) or you have to pay extra for it, but if you don't want it, you don't have to do anything. Get it yet?

But forget Relics for a second. Forget Soda Pop. Forget even CMON. Let's look at Dreamforge. Say I want one - and only one - of those Crusaders. I pledge for one. The Kickstarter continues, and troops are added, additional weapons, different scales and so on. I still only want one Crusader, so I'm not expected to do anything nor would I remove my pledge because other things have become part of the KS.

Ugh - no more McDonalds analogies, please.

It is fairly simple - RK fans are disappointed by Non-RK stretch Goals.

I don't think it is any more complicated than that!

Except, this isn't "buying" at McDonald's. This is investing in a company.

"I'd like to buy some McD's stock because I think they will be expanding the number of stores in China."
"Great, we plan on adding three stores in China. If we get more money than that, we're going to explore the idea of space travel. Would you like to invest more in that?"
"No. My money is going toward the extra store in China, right?"
"Well, the first part. But then we're dumping money in the space exploration thing. You sure you don't want to invest there?"
"But, if you have the money to buy addition store in China, over the three you planned, why don't you just invest in more stores? That was the plan..."
"Oh, we might. But first we really wanna go to space."

Seriously guys - enough with the analogies already.

Maybe the difference is whether you pledge expecting:

1: Only the initial stuff advertised. Anything else is a nice bonus and if it's useless to you, it's regarded as free, so it doesn't matter?

2: The initial stuff, plus good stuff from the stretches. You're also investing in the expectation of good stretches, so if they're not to your taste, it's seen as a poor return on the investment.

I'm in the first camp, but I can understand the second.

I find it pretty strange to complain about the stretch goals. They're extras. You should be satisfied with the "reward" as it is at the time you make the pledge. Otherwise don't freakin' pledge!

Are people seriously pledging despite not liking the current rewards, but thinking that it'll end up being 6 times as much extra stuff for free in the end like Reaper and then raging when it's not?

Not so much any more,

But I'm sure a fair number of the 'early birds' from the first couple of days did.

They'd seen zombicide/sedition wars and thought there'd be that value imedialy. Those sort of questions/comments on the feed have just about dried up so they're either gone or happy now

 Elemental wrote:
Maybe the difference is whether you pledge expecting:

1: Only the initial stuff advertised. Anything else is a nice bonus and if it's useless to you, it's regarded as free, so it doesn't matter?

2: The initial stuff, plus good stuff from the stretches. You're also investing in the expectation of good stretches, so if they're not to your taste, it's seen as a poor return on the investment.

I'm in the first camp, but I can understand the second.

I'm in the first camp. I don't care if they release anything else as I'm happy with what's out.

The people who are unhappy because of the stretch goals are insane. This is a lower price than you will ever be able to get in the future. Look at what's in the faction starters and decide if that's for you. Then look at the add-ons and decide which, if any, you'd like to spend money on. Don't base your decision on what might be available.

I'd pay to watch some of these people buy a new car. " What?!?!? Leather seats & a sunroof cost extra! I think it should be included 50% below MSRP! My buddy just bought 10 Yugos for that price!"

 Bat Manuel wrote:

 Elemental wrote:
Maybe the difference is whether you pledge expecting:

1: Only the initial stuff advertised. Anything else is a nice bonus and if it's useless to you, it's regarded as free, so it doesn't matter?

2: The initial stuff, plus good stuff from the stretches. You're also investing in the expectation of good stretches, so if they're not to your taste, it's seen as a poor return on the investment.

I'm in the first camp, but I can understand the second.

I'm in the first camp. I don't care if they release anything else as I'm happy with what's out.

The people who are unhappy because of the stretch goals are insane. This is a lower price than you will ever be able to get in the future. Look at what's in the faction starters and decide if that's for you. Then look at the add-ons and decide which, if any, you'd like to spend money on. Don't base your decision on what might be available.

I'd pay to watch some of these people buy a new car. " What?!?!? Leather seats & a sunroof cost extra! I think it should be included 50% below MSRP! My buddy just bought 10 Yugos for that price!"

Only that's not how that kind of sale is handled and that isn't what the issues with this Kickstarter are about - at all.

 Bat Manuel wrote:

 Elemental wrote:
Maybe the difference is whether you pledge expecting:

1: Only the initial stuff advertised. Anything else is a nice bonus and if it's useless to you, it's regarded as free, so it doesn't matter?

2: The initial stuff, plus good stuff from the stretches. You're also investing in the expectation of good stretches, so if they're not to your taste, it's seen as a poor return on the investment.

I'm in the first camp, but I can understand the second.

I'm in the first camp. I don't care if they release anything else as I'm happy with what's out.

The people who are unhappy because of the stretch goals are insane. This is a lower price than you will ever be able to get in the future. Look at what's in the faction starters and decide if that's for you. Then look at the add-ons and decide which, if any, you'd like to spend money on. Don't base your decision on what might be available.

I'd pay to watch some of these people buy a new car. " What?!?!? Leather seats & a sunroof cost extra! I think it should be included 50% below MSRP! My buddy just bought 10 Yugos for that price!"

Let's look at it another way: Some people want the models, but not at the current price, and definitely not at the retail price. For instance, I really like the models (I own first runs of some of Soda Pop's stuff) but I can't justify the purchase unless it is a really good deal due to cash flow issues. Now, add ons are fine, but they don't increase the value of the base pledge, so they don't do anything for me. A few more models included in the 100$ price though, that would offer more value, and make it more worth it. Since I want to drop 100$ and get the models, I want stretch goals that add neat things so it hits the point I am happy paying 100$. Right now... it isn't quite there.

To summarize, the new models for more $$ stretch goals are indifferent to people like me who want more value for the money. They make me unhappy in the sense that I would be more happy if they gave me more stuff for 100$ instead, but in and of themselves are not a problem. However, if I don't end up backing this for 100$ because the value isn't there, I will be less happy than if the value is there and I get it.

So, people who are not happy with the stretch goals are not insane, but rather want more value in that Soda Pop package.

Also, you should pay to watch my wife buy a car. It is somewhat like that, but she walks out with a car, lots of options, and a price well below the sticker price. I don't really see how negotiating for cars is particularly relevant to wanting more value for the money, even if you would like to have something, seeing as how it is not a direct negotiation with the KS.

It kind of bugs me that they won't show me the stretch goal till I've actually hit it.

It kind of bugs me that I have to spend money to help get to a stretch goal that I want, and it then comes out as an option that I have to pay for too especially when it's figure (man sized) and to top that off I have to pay retail for it....I'm not that Kickstarter experienced, I'll admit that up front, but is that the way it goes? I mean I understand big assed options like the Black Diamond one (having paid for the Clockwork Dragon and the DracoLich in the Reaper campaign), but man sized stuff??? ***spoiled by reaper, I guess***

As far as SDE stretches, they've released two so far. They've also got Candy and Cola. They should have released the entire line up at once as a single SDE stretch goal so they could get back to real, RK related stretches.

Reaper did not have to sculpt new models for the majority of the Bones line.

Art/Sculpting costs are generally greater then the molding costs (for metals/resins).

well considering they have the art for most of what people asked for, and the resin/ metal models too, I don't see a reason why they cannot release them as streachgoals at all, if nothing else they admitted they just created the art for the bases and the art for the mechanic add-on, so creating the art is not really the issue from my point of view.

They still have to sculpt things.

 Cyporiean wrote:
Reaper did not have to sculpt new models for the majority of the Bones line.

Art/Sculpting costs are generally greater then the molding costs (for metals/resins).

Very true.

Which is why its super questionable to ask for money in KS for a product (RK), then use that money for another product (SDE). Money INVESTED in RK is going to be used to model, frame and produce the SDE minis. Yes, people ALSO have to pay for the SDE minis, but SodaPop is asking for this investment money, that should be tied to RK, to make the molds.

I'm just about completely turned off by this KS. I don't think the investment in RK is going to come through. If the company is so small or ill-run that viable questions can;t be answered, how are they ever going to finish all these models and produce them in a timely manner?

The way I heard it, the chibi RK characters had initially been planned simply as display minis, so basically RK memorabilia. Then they decided to tack on SDE rules to sweeten the pot, but they were always meant to be a RK thing, not a SDE thing.

 Cyporiean wrote:
Reaper did not have to sculpt new models for the majority of the Bones line.

Actually the Storm Giants in the Bones Campaign were concepts that we got as freebies when we hit a stretch. The Clockwork Dragon, Nethyrmaul, and Kaladrax afforementioned were also concepts, granted I paid for those options, but they're also big minis...and I didn't pay retail -$50 for 3 dragon models (the smallest of which being 7 inches in height) isn't retail.

Art/Sculpting costs are generally greater then the molding costs (for metals/resins).

Yeah but $10 a fig for plastic is pretty much retail pricing. It's about what I'd pay for an Anima Tactic fig, which are metals. What's exactly my incentive to help them make their stretch if I have to then then purchase it at retail? Shouldn't there be some discount involved?

I get the $25/$35 faction addons. Stretch goals are adding to that pile as well so they'll be worth their price vs. what you'd actually pay once Relic Knights hit's the stores next year. I guess I mainly don't get the$10 cosplays and Penny Arcades and SDEs. They're all getting done in plastic, which are made with steel molds that will essentially last forever...and are expensive. The arguement that we're only going to be making a small number of these for cons kind of escapes me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cyporiean wrote:
They still have to sculpt things.

I wonder how much a mini sculptor actually gets paid per sculpt.