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Honestly think it's just different and valid points of view

1) You pledged for something at the time, if they added NO ADDITIONS AT ALL then you should still be ok as your pledge conditions were already met. This means that if not related, heck even total crap being added as stretch goals shouldn't change your original commitment on a fundamental level (IE nothing to do with customer service or comms or trust)

2) You pledged early under the assumption that at the end of the process you would have something worth pledging for... that would mean that disappointment or divergence of stretch goals (or even not meeting them) would cause you to drop out. Looking at dreamforge, if you wanted the Mortis in 15mm and pledged for it... but it wasn't going to make it, it would make sense to pull out before the end.

Just 2 different views of pledging,
neither are wrong. But they are VERY different...
I tend to do #1 which is why I have upped my pledge as these goals have added more to the base level


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@Drazz:

Yes, I think it's more about comms, trust, annoyance and incompetence rather than the actual stretch goals.

This is a GREAT reason to drop out from a pledge.

If putting SDE characters in as a stretch means that they have lost your trust... that's fine.

I'm sorry Alpha, but that doesn’t fly. I didn’t like all the Zombicide stretch goals. I didn’t like all the Sedition Wars stretch goals. Some of the Reaper stuff made me yawn in the hope that we’d get something better ‘next time’. None of them made me want to withdraw my pledge because what I had wanted originally was still part of the deal. Even just using this KS – what if I didn’t want more Jetbike riding girls for the Speed Circuit group? Well... they’re free, and I’m still getting everything that I wanted, so is it such a big deal? And if the next goal was for even more Jetbike girls – even Jetbike girls I’d have to pay extra for if I wanted them – then I’d be disappointed, because, again, it’s not something I want or need... but I’m still getting what I want, so what’s the problem?

@ drazz

Ahah! Finally someone who can explain things in a manner that seems to cover all the bases.

drazz wrote:How about its not really about the stretch goals, but rather the company itself.

Alright. Fair enough. Let’s see where you take this.

drazz wrote:You invested in a company that is going to make products you want (maybe).

Ok first of all stop. Not ‘maybe’. You pledged because they were making something you wanted. If they weren’t making something you wanted you would not have pledged.

drazz wrote:Yes, they will continue to make the product you initially wanted, but in the process of asking for your INVESTMENT (not a purchase), they took some strange turns.

I don’t see it as an investment. I’m not alone here. I see it as a purchase, or at worst a pre-order. To me this is no different than Best Buy and Game Spot each offering the same game but with slightly different pre-order bonuses. You want in early, you get something special. If you don’t, you don’t, and you might be able to pick it up later. Maybe. The investment part would only come into it if they couldn’t make it. You put money in, they didn’t make their original goal, so they can’t make it... and you don’t lose any money.

Now if you see it as an investment, then that’s fine. More power to you. But if your investment was for Product X and they made Product X but then also added product Y, I don’t see how you could really be all that disappointed. I mean, after all, you wanted Product X and you’re still getting product X, so why the fuss?

However, your last part about ‘strange turns’ warrants a closer look.

drazz wrote:They stopped talking to you.

Admittedly I haven’t been focusing on the comments at the KS page, but even I remember that Zombicide, Sedition Wars and Reaper were sending me E-mails every 20 seconds. This one... not so much. I haven’t got a’one. So I can’t disagree with you here, and I think the communication aspect has not been handled well at all. Not revealing stretch goals until the goal is met is a serious no-no, and I’m sure others here feel the same.

drazz wrote:They agree they ended up with extra money, and only then decided to create a product that should already have been made (cards, bases and tokens?).

Should they have? Do you know they hadn’t already been planned? What if the extra money allowed them to take something they already had and make them better (eg. Mike wanting plastic tokens in Sedition Wars, but only being able to do it once they had enough money to fund the process of making them). Is that such a problem?

drazz wrote:They agree they have extra money so invest in something completely different.

Calling SDE minis something ‘completely different’ is a bit of a stretch. It’s not like they suddenly added jetski’s to the KS and said that all future money would go to funding Soda-Pop-branded jetskis.

drazz wrote:They refuse to show you early versions of their product--the one you are trying to fund.

This is a real problem – assuming its real. Have they refused, as in said “No we’re not showing you”, or is that a conclusion you're drawing just because they haven’t shown you anything yet? Now, the perception can often be worse than the truth, but let’s be sure that Soda-Pop have outright refused to show upcoming models (ie. actively stated that they will not be showing models no matter how many requests they get) before we start accusing them of that.

If they did so in a comment on the KS or one of the update E-mails that I haven’t seen, then ok, that’s a problem. But if they haven’t refused, and you just think they have because they haven’t shown anything yet (which isn’t the same as refusing to show something), then don’t accuse them of that.

drazz wrote:They refuse to answer questions.

This is similar to above. Are they just not answering questions, or have they made a statement that they will not be answering questions. These are two different things. Don’t get me wrong – both are bad – but one is worse than the other and I’d rather be sure that it’s not the former before accusing them of the latter. Make sense?

drazz wrote:They, in general, look incompetent.

And detached. Or unengaged. I don’t really disagree with you here.

drazz wrote:Yeah, I think its reasonable to come to that assumption and potentially back out. If this was a stock buy-in, I don;t think I'd trust this company to meet its goal and I'd take my money out.

But... they met their goal? Company X needs Y to make Z. I want Z. I give Company X my Y. They make Z. Investment successful! They also go and make A B and C... who cares? I wanted Z, and they made Z. I still get what I want!!!

I think a huge part of it is the original goal was total BS. They never meant to get $20k. Never. They wanted $100k. So, fine, ask for it. Don't pretend like $20k was going to get the game funded; you wanted $100k in order to include the 'extras' so just make that the original goal.

As for the preview models, they are there. Go watch the Gencon video. Most of the models they want to produce are in the video. But not individually photo'ed, not in good light, nothing where the investors see details.

As far as I can tell, no they are not refusing to show models or refusing to answer questions. But there are 5 days left. And no models and no answers after weeks of asking.

And yes, SDE is completely different. If I pay into this KS, for RK, I don't want the funds going to SDE. If Company X wants me to fund Y, I don't want my money going to Z.

If you read all these comments, it's like you are forced to pledge...

If you don't like the KS then don't pledge, it's easy as burgers.

Wow this thread exploded over the PAX weekend.

I've read all your posts and I'll answer what I can. If I haven't or don't answer your question I'm not ignoring you -- there's just lots of stuff. Feel free to bring it up again and I'll be back.

Communication:
I personally have been active on the Kickstarter comments section answering questions as has CMON. In addition, I have posted in this thread (though DaveC keeps beating me on status updates, thanks!) as well as posting on our personal forums. CMON has sent out 36 update e-mails and we have updated our FAQ with many of the most common questions. Plus, not every comment necessarily needs a response. Many comments are backers enjoying a conversation back and forth, wish-listing, or just rooting for the next stretch goal.

If the primary concern with communication is wanting every stretch goal laid out ad infinitum. I will not attempt to dissuade you about the validity of that. What I can do it tell you why we are using the "batch" method we are. While we have our desired stretch goals laid out, it is also not set in stone. Relic Knights is still in development. Some stuff is still waiting on art, some stuff on sculpts, other stuff on manufacturing price quotes, plus we are watching and reading backer feedback. This makes it so that a few things can be moved around in line. A few of you don't like that we have been using silhouettes of the stretch goals, even though we also have provided a text description. Fair enough. We like having a little visual surprise when the stretch is unlocked, even though the stretch is not a secret. We have a lot of people who come back and watch the kickstarter because they are excited for the reveal.

On the chibi models.
I have stated our thought process on these before, but I suppose it is worth repeating.

Here's some insight on our thought process for the chibi Relic Knights. Soda Pop has always been about loving and embracing the anime, video game, pop culture aesthetic. Which covers a lot of styles. Obviously Relic Knights embraces the more sexy streamlined look while SDE embraces the 8bit chibi style. However, these two forms are rarely exclusive and chibi versions of popular anime characters are very common and popular. (Obviously we love them.) Three years ago, before Super Dungeon Explore even existed, the packaging for our very first Relic Knight, Malya featured chibi art versions of her and Mr. Tomn. A trend which we continued with the packaging for most our Relic Knights and which you can even see on our website. Ever since that first chibi picture of Malya was released we've had constant requests for chibi models of these characters as reflected by the art. Now, here we are several years down the road doing Kickstarter, a format that allows us to offer all sorts of wonderful and interesting bonuses. For us it was a simple decision to make these models that are so often requested a reality. The fact that we can include Hero cards for them is just a fun, extra, perk for those who play SDE.

It is interesting to me that these have been met with such vitriol by a few people. I have trouble seeing how they are different from any other limited edition model that does not have rules or game value such as the various White Dwarfs, the ale drinking PP models, etc. Sure you can use those as "counts as" for something they are not but at the end of the day nothing prevents you from doing the same thing with the chibi models -- they could be "counts as" cyphers or even chibi versions of themselves since models have have a model size and base size stat in the game so the actual physical model size is not strictly a concern.

Not showing product.
We have many pictures of completed sculpts up, including our intro video, and a video of our Gencon display case. Many of our sculpts are not yet complete, therefore we have shown concept art. As soon as a sculpt is ready for photo we will post pictures of it. We have also posted a beta rules set + cards. It is obviously not complete but gives a very good idea of what the game you are buying is going to be.

Hope that answers some of your questions. Obviously, not everyone will agree with everything, that's just the nature of the beast -- but as I said above I'm happy to answer your questions and will also just continue to post here as we continue.

Thanks!
SPM_Deke

Thanks Terrain, understand Gencon kinda threw a spanner in the works (good and bad thing for comms).

As for the pics, for the stuff that is done... can you show pics... I was sold when I saw the helmeted heads for the Helle's Belles... but they are not on the KS page... you know, things like that


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Actually, I think the video is great... but actual photo's of that case would be SO GOOD!! Especially for stuff that isn't changing. If it is still being done, totally understand... Just want this to get as big as possible for selfish reasons ;-)

drazz wrote:
I think a huge part of it is the original goal was total BS. They never meant to get $20k. Never. They wanted $100k. So, fine, ask for it. Don't pretend like $20k was going to get the game funded; you wanted $100k in order to include the 'extras' so just make that the original goal.

$20k is what we needed/wanted to get out a hard back book and at least two plastic starters. Would we have been a bit disappointed in not reaching $100k to have plastic starters for everything? Absolutely. Yet it still would have been great to be able to provide two factions and a nice book that we could direct people to as an easy entry point to the game. Much like many other companies that have a single starter set with 2 factions and rules.

drazz wrote:As for the preview models, they are there. Go watch the Gencon video. Most of the models they want to produce are in the video. But not individually photo'ed, not in good light, nothing where the investors see details.

I recommend you watch our main video which has the pictures you are asking for. In addition we have model pictures distributed throughout the main page under each faction. Plus, many of the current range of models will be undergoing adjustment for plastic. Like making barrels, hafts, and fins, sturdier.

Everything we have is here. But, again some of these will be getting altered.

Thanks
SPM_Deke

 terrainguy wrote:

...

I recommend you watch our main video which has the pictures you are asking for. In addition we have model pictures distributed throughout the main page under each faction. Plus, many of the current range of models will be undergoing adjustment for plastic. Like making barrels, hafts, and fins, sturdier.

Everything we have is here. But, again some of these will be getting altered.

Thanks
SPM_Deke

Cool, thanks for the update.
Already in for 4 starter sets... so I'm happy with what you guys are doing. putting a link for this on the ACTUAL KS page would be good.

 Makaleth wrote:
As for the pics, for the stuff that is done... can you show pics... I was sold when I saw the helmeted heads for the Helle's Belles... but they are not on the KS page... you know, things like that

See my above post for a link to pics of what we have. Some of the stuff like alt heads are not done, or if they are done we're still working on seeing what can fit on the molds. We will cram the molds as full as we can, but the last thing we want to do is promise an option that we later find out we can't make happen.

Cool, thanks terrain

 terrainguy wrote:
A few of you don't like that we have been using silhouettes of the stretch goals, even though we also have provided a text description. Fair enough. We like having a little visual surprise when the stretch is unlocked, even though the stretch is not a secret. We have a lot of people who come back and watch the kickstarter because they are excited for the reveal.

See this is what doesn’t make sense. Bones had a similar system with its graveyard, and what essentially became a game of ‘digging up the bones’. And they had stretch goals laid out far above their initial goal. Everyone seemed to love that... and it’s very similar to this system that everyone seems to hate. I don’t understand why people dislike this system.

I like the way you’ve done it. I like the surprises (just like I liked the surprises as each grave was dug up with the Bones Kickstarter). When the last SDE character went up I was excited to see what it would look like once the goal was hit. It didn’t annoy me at all that it was a silhouette.

 terrainguy wrote:
The fact that we can include Hero cards for them is just a fun, extra, perk for those who play SDE.

And for the occasional person, like me, the tipping point that made me pledge (the Penny Arcade characters were a huge draw as well... though I wish you’d do a tiny Div esper! ). Now I’m in over 300 (including shipping), with additional Factions, boosts and Ltd. Ed characters added on. No regrets.

Seriously though – see if the PA guys will let you do a ‘Broken Sword Lady Ann Archy’ with Drunk Div as an esper!

And on that note... $4800 to go before the next goal set

H.B.M.C. wrote:Seriously though – see if the PA guys will let you do a ‘Broken Sword Lady Ann Archy’ with Drunk Div as an esper!

It was actually a big deal that they let us do Tycho as well as Gabe. Normally they only let Gabe get put into projects like this. I would love to do a Lady Ann Archy or some Noh Twisp and Catsby.

Thank you, Deke, for the update. Hope you guys had a good/lucrative time at PAX.

I do have a couple of questions I've been unable to find the answers for. (Maybe I've looked in the wrong places.)

Do you guys have an idea what the retail's gonna be on the figures?

Are the Shattered Sword Paladin minions being altered/reworked?

Pose-ability aside, is there going to be more variation to minions than what the concept art entails?

Are all the Black Diamond Corp minions male? Shattered Sword Paladin and Star Nebula Corsair minions 3:2 male:female like the concept art suggests?

Dentry wrote:
Thank you, Deke, for the update. Hope you guys had a good/lucrative time at PAX.

I do have a couple of questions I've been unable to find the answers for. (Maybe I've looked in the wrong places.)

Do you guys have an idea what the retail's gonna be on the figures?

Are the Shattered Sword Paladin minions being altered/reworked?

Pose-ability aside, is there going to be more variation to minions than what the concept art entails?

Are all the Black Diamond Corp minions male? Shattered Sword Paladin and Star Nebula Corsair minions 3:2 male:female like the concept art suggests?

We do not have a final cost for retail. We are targeting $60 for the the starters, but that is in no way final.

The Shattered Sword minions are complete. We are looking at potentially doing more poses but they will not differ substantially from what is shown.

Definitely more variety than just the concept art. The art shown is just single art for the unit card. That said they are units of like equipped models so don't expect them to have tons of weapon options, etc. It will mainly be pose and/or head variations.

At the moment I believe all the Black Diamond minions are male. Though they are still being worked on so that may change. Paladins and Corsairs do currently have a mix of male and female.

For what it's worth, I was the one who gave up the early bird spot. I was really happy with what I would be getting (and up to a few days ago had been debating upgrading). Then bills showed up to remind me about Zombicide, Ogre, and Sedition Wars. Also Dark Vengeance was making eyes at me. Nothing to do with being unhappy with the stretch goals or anything like that. My Visa burst into flames and I took that as a sign

Sorry to hear that Vetric... I will keep that spot warm for you (while my Visa burns with fury in the background!)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 terrainguy wrote:
A few of you don't like that we have been using silhouettes of the stretch goals, even though we also have provided a text description. Fair enough. We like having a little visual surprise when the stretch is unlocked, even though the stretch is not a secret. We have a lot of people who come back and watch the kickstarter because they are excited for the reveal.

See this is what doesn’t make sense. Bones had a similar system with its graveyard, and what essentially became a game of ‘digging up the bones’. And they had stretch goals laid out far above their initial goal. Everyone seemed to love that... and it’s very similar to this system that everyone seems to hate. I don’t understand why people dislike this system.

Bones was about quantity, not utility. The purpose of every stretch goal was just to add more random junk to the "To be converted" pile without regard for what came before, and everyone knew it. With expectations so low, it's hard to disappoint.

 Makaleth wrote:
Sorry to hear that Vetric... I will keep that spot warm for you (while my Visa burns with fury in the background!)

I'm glad it went to a good home! (Now if only Zombicide would hurry up and get here to console me....)

Next time, Soda Pop, next time.

Thanks for the speedy reply, Deke, and for answering all my questions.

I'm glad to know there will be variety to the Black Diamond Corp minions. Everything I've seen of them looks great. Unfortunately, the Shattered Sword minions don't live up to the same quality in my opinion - using this and the Kickstarter video as samples of what the final models will be like or otherwise closely resemble - and I was hoping they'd get a bit of a touch up to bring them up to par. Everything else sounds great.

For my tastes, the artwork with more of the long johns exposed looks better than the complete body covering plate in the video also. But that one's just preference.

Again, thanks for the information. I'll be closely monitoring the KS until it's conclusion and I'm very excited to see what you guys do with it in these final days!

Hi Deke,

I'll repeat my request (& also others from the KS crew) for the SDE chibi figures to come with a relic knights cyper card with the appropriate art on

It would make using them as alt-cypers more fun (and will make it easier to explain to the undecided that they ARE usefull for relic knights too)

Edit: After all you have the art already, and the basic cyper card template so it shouldn't be much more work/cost to do this, and it would make them much easier to explain to (some of) the doubters

 Empchild wrote:

Honestly for the sedition wars and those of you who bought in, are you honestly EVER going to paint the 90 some odd models from it.. most likely not.

I would have said no, but my wife just bought me an airbrush ...so it's now a definite possibility!


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 Grot 6 wrote:
Not "Oh, were removing so and so and adding this close second. Then we will bring back this original figure as an option to buy for you."

What actually happened there? Not being sarcastic. I wasn't paying much attention to this KS for a couple of weeks there after I pulled my initial pledge.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Then that's a load of bs entitlement.
They clearly list what you get for each pledge level. Anything after that is a bonus. Any optional add-ons are just that, optional. Expecting more for your 'investment' is just nonsense. You're buying a product, and as more people buy it you get a few things for free added on top of that.

 scipio.au wrote:
It doesn't mean people are pledging today and not liking what's there. They could have pledged 2 or 3 weeks ago and don't like how things have panned out.

Panned out? Are they suddenly not getting what they pledged for initially? Of course not. They're getting more than what they paid for. When I go into McDonald's (here we go again) I don't buy a Big Mac and hope that everyone else around me does so too so I get free fries (and then leave with nothing when I don't get it). I go in there to buy a Big Mac, and if all I get is that Big Mac... then I got what I paid for, didn't I? If I get anything more than that, then it's a bonus.

You're not stupid, so let's not play the game. CMON have been the major organisation that has built up this kind of expectation for miniature Kickstarters - way before Reaper came along. I personally went in early, expecting a lot more based on Zombiecide and Sedition Wars. Why did I go in early? Because of the "early bird" deals, of course. Fully with the knowledge that if I was not impressed, I could pull out later. That's what happened.

People like to bitch and moan about people going in at the last minute. We saw plenty of that with Sedition Wars and Mantic. Fine. But the flipside to that is that people who go in big at the start can pull their pledges just as easily if they don't pan out. Like I did. Since I thought the initial sets were not particularly good value, but went in early (Gotta Get 'em all) on good faith with expectations based on CMON's previous efforts. When I found that the (quality of) sculpts, value (number of models) and lack of non-concept art pictures weren't doing much for me, I pulled my pledge.

Same deal with DreadBowl, with pretty average value at the Day-1 buy-in level. Slowly getting better. In a few weeks I'll decide if I'm staying in, pulling out, bumping my pledge or leaving it alone.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You’re only going halfway there.

If that goal that encouraged you to buy in isn’t met, then you could withdraw your pledge. That makes perfect sense to me; you didn't get what you were hoping to get, so you keep the money. What doesn’t make sense is making a pledge because you like what’s already there, and then getting pissy/withdrawing funding when later goals don’t, for whatever reason, match your level of expectation (or entitlement).

When I first saw this Kickstarter it looked ok. To me – personally – the starter packs were a bit thin and there wasn’t much to grab me other than a few of the models (which I was happy to wait for). Doubling basic troops and adding in some nifty Ltd. Ed. characters encouraged me to buy in.

OK - that clarification makes sense to me, and I agree with you. I went in at $100 for Reaper on day 1 or 2 because I was happy with the deal.

With Relic Knights and DreadBall, both were very thin on Day 1, but I went with the Early Bird levels on both to save a couple of bucks on the assumption that they would actually become worthwhile to me. DreadBowl is looking like it'll get there, and RK has gone from GGEA to "nope" to borderline SOTU.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm sorry Alpha, but that doesn’t fly. I didn’t like all the Zombicide stretch goals. I didn’t like all the Sedition Wars stretch goals. Some of the Reaper stuff made me yawn in the hope that we’d get something better ‘next time’. None of them made me want to withdraw my pledge because what I had wanted originally was still part of the deal. Even just using this KS – what if I didn’t want more Jetbike riding girls for the Speed Circuit group? Well... they’re free, and I’m still getting everything that I wanted, so is it such a big deal? And if the next goal was for even more Jetbike girls – even Jetbike girls I’d have to pay extra for if I wanted them – then I’d be disappointed, because, again, it’s not something I want or need... but I’m still getting what I want, so what’s the problem?

This is where I get that you're just not reading what I've said.

ALL I AM SAYING IS THAT I AM DISAPPOINTED IN NON-RELIC KNIGHTS STRETCH GOALS.

That's it!

Not that I'm not going to pledge!

Not that I'm going to withdraw my pledge!

NO!

That's it!

So guess what - that does "fly" and it does "make sense" - how can it not?

Sheesh!

Yeah, I have no chips in on this one at all, but having stretch goals for a fantasy dungeoncrawler in the middle of a sci-fi wargame is a bit odd.

This applies to any company - I'd have having a major bout of "wtf" as well if Mantic suddenly had a bunch of "special characters for dwarf king's hold" stretch goals right at the end of a Warpath KS. :p

 scarletsquig wrote:
Yeah, I have no chips in on this one at all, but having stretch goals for a fantasy dungeoncrawler in the middle of a sci-fi wargame is a bit odd.

This applies to any company - I'd have having a major bout of "wtf" as well if Mantic suddenly had a bunch of "special characters for dwarf king's hold" stretch goals right at the end of a Warpath KS. :p

Exactly!

And yes, we fully understand we aren't forced to buy anything - we get that.

It still doesn't invalidate the feeling of disappointment over what seem to be odd and unrelated stretch goals.

THAT is the only point I was trying to make!

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program - EX2 Boost goal reached... what's next?!?

What actually happened there? Not being sarcastic. I wasn't paying much attention to this KS for a couple of weeks there after I pulled my initial pledge.

If you refer back to the first two to three pages of this conversation we had in the beginning of this thread...

There were generally good comments, and then there was a change somewhere along the days of three to five, that there was just ... nothing. Then the photos began to change. Then the overall pictures just disappeared, then there was a backpeddle, then..... it just continued from there.

If you read back through this conversation, it is pretty much going along in the same way as was going on over on the KS page comments, except of course there isn't as much rabid Posterboy white knighting of the Relic Knight stuff, and everything Anime from left field.If people had issues then the rule of the mob took over, and they were shouted down, or ridiculed, or just generally ignored while the fan-boism's continued to pile up, while the lack of conversation about these guys was pretty much teased out of them. To me, that is a what became the fine line that started me getting P.O. over this trivial stuff. (And this is coming from a confirmed Curmudgeon.)

The base Starter set, with the options of the "Casino cards", and several of the starters with several different modles that later were switched out in favor or more "Toned down" Models. One in particular was the ninjas, the other was the Zinenda and Spite models. These of particular and personal note were what I was discussing when I asked in the beginning if that super ninja with her azz hangjng out was part of the base set.
It was not in the beginning clear on if she was or not, then the pictures on the KS page had changed. By week two or three there WAS NOT EVEN IN the communication that was claimed here. In fact, if you go back to the conversation here on Dakka, around page 3-4, we mentioned that on several different occasions from several different people thaqt there was a lack of discussion and KS Streach goals. Along with that, we already discussed the general malaise of the kickstarter, and the rather uninspiring goals that were thrown out there with less then steller reception. (I was still on board at that point and not to rehash old stuff.) The starters at that point had in fact, changed. We discussed this a little in the past comments here, and even over on the KS there was several comments, that were later removed that discussed the point. The lead on the NOH box set, the Black Diamond, the appearance of the so called "Nekked human in the robot suit" that hasn't shown back up since discussions....

We already discussed the changes of the photos, and the grainy subpar pictures, the Yu-tube shineys, or " Oh, refer to this and this site if you want to really see what we are offering." And by that, we see a picture of the starters, see a list of some expanded streach goals, then throughout this thread, WE ALL discussed the rather haphazard way in which they were executing the project.

It should be up and around 700- 800,000 by now. Yet, we are geting lip service, and double talk over coulda, woulda, and shoulda.
I am not going to sit here and cherry pick each and every sculpt. We have already had conversation about the "Streach Goal" of the same six or so same sculpts per faction, and the lack of the variety there. We discussed the inclusion of extra heads and weapons, which did not show up on the KS page, and some people, ( myself Included) had to find out more information concerning this KS project through DAKKA then we did through the KS Project itself.

I'm putting down a pledge of real money. KS was the place that this was taking place at. If you want to put out information somewhere else, then you'd better say "Information about so and so is located -here-" Or put something out there to the effect that your over at some other website with the love, and the KS is just there for show and tell.

When I have to sit around and not hear anything for three days, then a week or three later hear someone say thay "Communicated information somewhere else and that it was not in fact there, it either says one of two things to me, YOU are either playing with me, or your either intentionally,(or unintentionally) being cagey.

Compound that with the changes, the lack of the conversation throughout the Project, and then add in the " Excuses" from everything from "Gencon made me do it", to "You put up money, be happy you get anything." to using Chibi heads as an excuse to get mad because the overall KS Project is not at the same level of professionalism as pervious ones from CMON, and seems more about selling me Streach goals, then it does about attaining a well thought out project with an intended goal. This isn't about the SDE stuff, its a combination of other factors that were ALREADY out there for discussion thorughout THIS and the KS threads. Too bad that you can't shout it down here, though, because the same discussion points are STILL HERE needing closure.

As I said before- My issue was that this KS seemed to have less then the effort put into it, and more about the "Oh Shiney" factor. While at the same time, there was not a vary good communication with the things that really count in terms of game stuff.

The KS comment page has become a mean spirited spankfest. They didn't address even half of the issues that were posted, and most of the issues were shouted down, to later emerge on Dakka, of all places. And whatever, Thanks, I guess.

And to compound the issue of this KS, and What happens when the project doesn't in fact reach the goals that were advertised, and as the project goes forward, we see the goal-post moved, if altogether changed? Was that really what you put money down on, or was there really any discussion about the changes? "Hey, we changed so and so and this is now an added streach goal, when in fact some figures that are now "Streach Goals" were part of the ORIGINAL KIT.

Then a few days to a week later, we still had to hear about how great the "Streach goals" were, that only amounted to an aditional extra set of the same basic troopers per the factions. Not to mention that the unlocks were parmount to unlocking components of the game. If you read back, you will in fact see my initial enthusiasm for the project, and my general delight in the fact that Super Dungeon Explore was getting additional expansions, and upgrades. To point out once again, That point of the KS had little to no discussion from COMON or Soda pop, based on excuse of ... Gencon.
Then the more vocal of the KS commenters board decided to open up the peanut gallery and then, as the lack of the streachs were received with less then steller review- people decided to get nasty white knight over the ta-ta's and start up the clever quips and placations.

On the whole one might think that I'm ready to pee all over the project, but I went on to say- "Hey, whats up with the lack of the discussions..." ( My comments through the KS project are between genuine affection and disappointment. I really liked the game after seeing the Yu-Tube videos. and I was even more stoked because the game was touted over the past couple of either a year or two. I don't know off hand, but I do in fact remember being the one back in the day being the one saying he was the one wanting the game for the RK guys.

But even though H.B.M.C. keeps harshing the fact that it is supposedly only about the Super Dungeon Explore guys, it is in fact the issue that THIS PROJECT is not being run as professionally, and efficiently as the Sedition Wars/ Zombicide ones were.

And at this point, I am rabidly hot and am taking the alloted break.

Am I mad? Yes. I'm overly disappointed at something that should be of a higher standard as was already offered. Had SODA POP not already had these incredible sculpts, and the components of the game already in target, and available. I wouldn't even give it a second thought.

I was the one that wanted the game. I was the one that wants RK, but in trying to get there there is so much alienation of some of the even most trivial things that I'm just damn mad right now at how this has gone, then to see a guy come over here and meally mouth what is just damage control instead of dealing with slop adds even more gas to the fire.

The points of contention are already there to be read. if you need to keep asking, then you need to go back and read them first.

We shouldn't HAVE to keep pointing to the obvious on this.

 Grot 6 wrote:
The base Starter set, with the options of the "Casino cards", and several of the starters with several different modles that later were switched out in favor or more "Toned down" Models. One in particular was the ninjas, the other was the Zinenda and Spite models. These of particular and personal note were what I was discussing when I asked in the beginning if that super ninja with her azz hangjng out was part of the base set.

You mean these:



They were originally part of the starter set? 'Cause I don't remember them being there.

Thats what happens when the pictures change, isn't it?

Remember Killface the ninja with her bubbles hanging out, and the swordswing to the side? They had a picture of her UNDER the picture of when it was in Black Diamonds initial starter set...

Week one to two, by the way....

Grot, I was under the impression that those pictures were to show off the factions and the overall style and the sculpting they were capable of, not part of the starter. Neither Zineda nor Suspect 7 were ever in the listings for what you got in the initial starter set and the pictures were probably taken down because they caused confusion.

I will agree the fist two weeks suffered from disorganization; and between that and the less-than-glamorous card and token goals probably slowed things down a lot.

Hooray!

Finally pledged for saviour (Noh and Cerci) plus other bits and bats.

What I really wanna know terrainguy is if the cerci speed circuit is gonna be an all female faction for the entire course of it's life? It would certainly make it unique as I can't think of another system that has that? (I don't have a wide knowledge lol)
Even SoB's from 40k have men plonked here and there.